Original Ceremony

Haven't heard it in full...why do most prefer this version over the one with Gillian? What's particularly different besides the tempo and production?

Al Jarvis wrote: It kicks arse, just like the live version. Comes crashing in like a light aircraft landing in your living room (how many times am I gonna use that analogy on this site?!!!).

The updated 12" was a pale imitation. No bollocks whatsoever.

100% agreed. Have a listen through the headphones Al, you can feel the hairs on the back of your neck rising!

That and Temptation make Singles worth buying IMO.

Yes, it's definitely all about testicles. The original has 'em knocking around its kneecaps; in the later version they have retracted somewhat into the abdomen, probably 'cos that version is the sound of a crisp, still Autumn afternoon.

I put Singles on in the car yesterday and ceremony blew me away, i have the 12" but never really given it much of a listen and just stuck with substance, no more....how much of a twat do i feel after ignoring it for so long.

It's how they wanted it to sound, how they had planned it when it was all coming together in rehearsals. No compromises, no concessions, no cop-outs. It comes at you like a beast possessed, the sound of a resurrection. Joy Division is dead, here we are.

i love both versions but honestly can't see how the original has more 'bollocks' than the rerecorded version. the version played live is much closer to the rerecorded version and i think everyone will agree it's Double Bollocks. Shug is right, the versions aren't that different to one another. Certainly less different than Temptation 82 + 87. i guarantee if you played the Gillian version at max volume to a packed club and the original at same volume to the same club, the Gillian version would be the most rousing. the original is beautiful and certainly one of the best 4minutes ever put on vinyl, but this argument baffles me the same way those who say the 87 Temptation is one of the worst New Order songs ever. seriously folks, aren't they both masterpieces? would Franz Fuckyourmom sell their souls to produce a song as good as the rerecorded Ceremony? You bet they would.

Both versions are fookin brilliant!

Stop with the hyperbole. Shivers DO NOT GO DOWN YOUR SPINE and HAIRS DO NOT RAISE ON THE BACK OF YOUR NECK after you've heard the song 1 billions times! Stop it!

The rerecorded version actually has some propusion to the drums, a faster tempo and a crisper sound. How did Hannett suck the life out of it? We get that you guys are 'ARDCORE and have been fans FOREVER! but be honest here. Put on Substance, turn dial to 11 and tell me the song is lifeless and a shell of the original.

BULLSHIT ALERT!

Biznotic Love Trapezoid wrote: Stop with the hyperbole. Shivers DO NOT GO DOWN YOUR SPINE and HAIRS DO NOT RAISE ON THE BACK OF YOUR NECK after you've heard the song 1 billions times! Stop it!

The rerecorded version actually has some propusion to the drums, a faster tempo and a crisper sound. How did Hannett suck the life out of it? We get that you guys are 'ARDCORE and have been fans FOREVER! but be honest here. Put on Substance, turn dial to 11 and tell me the song is lifeless and a shell of the original.

BULLSHIT ALERT!

Why must you be this way? I once defended you but now i Know I was fooled. Your such an ass!!

Jonathan wrote:

Biznotic Love Trapezoid wrote: Stop with the hyperbole. Shivers DO NOT GO DOWN YOUR SPINE and HAIRS DO NOT RAISE ON THE BACK OF YOUR NECK after you've heard the song 1 billions times! Stop it!

The rerecorded version actually has some propusion to the drums, a faster tempo and a crisper sound. How did Hannett suck the life out of it? We get that you guys are 'ARDCORE and have been fans FOREVER! but be honest here. Put on Substance, turn dial to 11 and tell me the song is lifeless and a shell of the original.

BULLSHIT ALERT!

Why must you be this way? I once defended you but now i Know I was fooled. Your such an ass!!

I honestly believe people who say Ceremony and Temptation on Substance are shite are actually putting on a air of superiortiy when the truth is, both versions are excellent. The original Ceremony is more Dirge like and less of the storming gig jump-up than the rerecorded version. I simply don't understand how anyone can honestly say the life has been sucked out of the rerecorded version. I'm not carrying a torch for Hannett, i'm just being REAL without trying to be COOL. To say the original has more energy than the rerecorded version is absolute bullshit. Energy is not 'bubbling under the surface'. The track is SLOWER and without a doubt has less energy than the later version.

Jonathan, please understand that I don't need or want anyone to stand up for me. I have an opinion just like you and even if i say your opinion is bullshit, i still respect that you're a fan of New Order. In my view, even if i disagree with your opinions on New Order, we're still allied in our love of the band and that trumps our differing opinions. Do you know how many times the old cliche of Hairs Standing On Neck has been used on NOOL? My point is that the extreme overuse of that statement irritates the shit out of me. Certainly Ceremony pushes some emotional buttons and regardless of how many times you've heard it, it still invokes a viceral response. However, Hairs Do Not Stand and Shivers Do Not Go Down Spine. I'll be the first to tell anybody at NOOL that i'm an asshole. I'm not afraid to call out people when i think they're full of shit and I certainly don't post here to make friends.

Alistair wrote:

Biznotic Love Trapezoid wrote: BULLSHIT ALERT!

You seem to have detected your own bullshit here, I'm merely expressing an opinion and never said anything about 'being ARDCORE' as you put it. You think the Substance version is great, well hunky fucking dory eh? Makes no difference to me.

I personally found the original seven inch to have alot more of a punch than the Substance version and good recordings shouldn't need 'turned up to 11' as you put it to get the most out of them. I don't hate the Substance recording, I just think it sounds a little sparse for a song which has so much energy bubbling under. Not everything Hannett touched turned to gold although he was a fantastic producer.

Perhaps the bullshit detector went off w/r/t my own post. It's happened before and it will happen again. I stated clearly that i love both versions but feel that people who slag off the rerecorded versions of Ceremony and Temptation are overstating both their love of the original and their distaste for the Substance versions. Those who stand up and shout for the original recordings are almost without fail, the same folks who take pride in being Old School ('Ardcore) fans from the JD/Early NO days. The same folks talk about hearing Peel play Temptation in 82 and having to step off their tricycle to cry because of its beauty. You can't deny that a person who claims to have bought Ceremony on 7" the day of release instantly gets more respect than someone who first heard of New Order when Sasha played James Holden's mix of Someone Like YOu on the Essential Mix. Even if the latter fan has subsequently been seriously moved by the music of New Order and the older fan has had their love of the Order dwindle with the passing years, the older fan has more inherent respect and clout. I feel like this fact pushes some to claim a love for the original versions in an attempt to clutch some of that respect. The truth is, both versions are awesome and would be THE seminal track of anyband who had recorded them. A million bands would kill to have recorded/produced the second Ceremony. New Order did both. Both are worth praise.

Biznotic Love Trapezoid wrote:

The original Ceremony is more Dirge like and less of the storming gig jump-up than the rerecorded version.

I agree with that. Just listening to it now, and while Barney's vocals are much better than the rerecorded version, the track seems to drag out, instead of the 'wham,bam,thank you ma'mm' approach of the latter.

Biznotic Love Trapezoid wrote: I simply don't understand how anyone can honestly say the life has been sucked out of the rerecorded version. I'm not carrying a torch for Hannett, i'm just being REAL without trying to be COOL. To say the original has more energy than the rerecorded version is absolute bullshit.

This was a problem that Barney acknowledges with the JD stuff. They sounded 10 times better live, and he hated the way Hannett seemed to zap out the energy, to give it that cold feel that we know and love with JD.

Got to admit I was never really much of a fan of Ceremony (Substance) for a long time.

THEN I HEARD THEM PLAY IT LIVE.

It was like a shockwave through the crowd. Now one of my all time fave songs and a very neat Tshirt.

Alistair wrote:

Biznotic Love Trapezoid wrote: I certainly don't post here to make friends.

Truer words were never spoken..

Indeed. I refuse to suck up to anyone simply to get a badge, a bootleg or any other piece of the puzzle. I stand by my opinions until someone proves me wrong at which point, i apologize and admit my mistake. It's happened before and it will happen again. I've got no problem saying I was wrong but This Time, I'm Not Wrong!

Rorschach wrote: Got to admit I was never really much of a fan of Ceremony (Substance) for a long time.

THEN I HEARD THEM PLAY IT LIVE.

It was like a shockwave through the crowd. Now one of my all time fave songs and a very neat Tshirt.

This is sort-of my point. Ceremony in any form is otherworldly. It's probably the best song they've ever recorded. It's not the most eloborate, the most intense, the best lyrics etc. it just captures some strong feelings in the music and never fails to elicit a response. Live, original 7" and Substance versions are all fantastic. If only they'd done a Peel Session version. Ceremony is one of the only songs by any group i listen to that always affects me. It is an immaculate, emotional bombshell that gets detonated with every listen. Whether that comes through Substance, the gold 7" or a bootleg. Stating otherwise sounds like a lie to me.

I really do think that Temptation 87 is quite a horrible version compared to the original 7"/12", and yes I did buy it on the day of release etc...that may mean that the original has a more personal relevance as it was a time and a place thing. Although I would add just to counter that, that I do also like Temptation 98 far more than the 1987 version.

As for Ceremony I go for the original 7" version every time. For reasons I can't quite put my finger on. The sound is immense, the metallic guitars, the vocals...it just has that indefinable something! And if you never get those shivers down your spine then I feel you've missed out really.

Which version of Ceremony is best - what about the Western Works version, sung by Steve Morris?

That's raw.

to this day i'm still confused who wrote the lyrics. I know what barney says but Ms. Curtis credits it to her husband. Can anybody shed light on this?

Jonathan wrote: to this day i'm still confused who wrote the lyrics. I know what barney says but Ms. Curtis credits it to her husband. Can anybody shed light on this?

Ian hadn't written any lyrics down, so Barney ran the JD rehearsal tape through a graphic equaliser to try and decipher what Ian was singing. The rest he made up...

Jonathan wrote: to this day i'm still confused who wrote the lyrics. I know what barney says but Ms. Curtis credits it to her husband. Can anybody shed light on this?

i believe ian wrote the lyrics, but barney and co. were unsure as to what they said, so the band had to put them through a machine (not sure of the exact terminology)* to try and figure out what the hell he was saying. then barney changed the words around a bit.

i agree with shug that the 7" is more 'raw' but as to preferring one over the other, i think it depends on my mood and what i feel like listening to at that moment.

edit: *graphic equaliser...as old blue says.

johnny james wrote: I really do think that Temptation 87 is quite a horrible version compared to the original 7"/12", and yes I did buy it on the day of release etc...that may mean that the original has a more personal relevance as it was a time and a place thing. Although I would add just to counter that, that I do also like Temptation 98 far more than the 1987 version.

As for Ceremony I go for the original 7" version every time. For reasons I can't quite put my finger on. The sound is immense, the metallic guitars, the vocals...it just has that indefinable something! And if you never get those shivers down your spine then I feel you've missed out really.

Johnny, of course i got those feelings. However, they don't happen now, after i've heard the song a billion times. As i stated, i do feel an emotional impact of both versions of Ceremony but i do not have Hairs actually stand on my neck and Shivers DO NOT actually go down my spine and i would bet every single dollar i have and all my possesions that those reactions don't happen to you either. They certainly did at one point but not now. While i agree with the sentiment, i just get annoyed when that phrase gets overused. It's like saying I Love You to every girl you date. It cheapens the emotion and the sentiment.

Christy, thanks for your attempt of clarifying it. I guess i knew that already.

I also would like to say hello because im never online at the same time with you now.

when the original ceremony came out it was if the the impossible had happened,new order where as good if not better than joy division,i cant stress enough how at that time this seemed almost incredible. there was a lot of anticipation for the release but also a lot of (cant wait to slag it)IN THE MUSIC PRESS. but there was none of it,ceremony was a triumph and still stands head and shoulders above what virtually any band today could muster. as for the re-recorded version its ok in my opinion but never had the impact of the original,that along with the different mix of ialp which i feel didnt work as well either. why the band thought that the original felt over produced and they needed to strip it down a bit ill never know,but its their music and they can do what they want with it eh. still both versions get a from me.