New Order's backing singers Dawn Zee etc. Are they really necessary?

So in another thread I've been criticising Dawn Zee because I can't stand that vocal style and think it is particularly out of place with New Order. Some people seem to object to this and are defending her.

So what do the rest of you think?

Should New Order ditch those 'soulful' backing singers like Dawn Zee and just do all the vocals themselves like they used to?

Maybe get Gillian back into the studio to do some proper backing vocals?

Or is Dawn Zee the icing on the cake for you?

I gleefully await a bitter dispute

Can't say I'm a big fan of waily female backing vocals on NO tracks, but if anyone should do them, then it should be Dawn. She's cool.

And she was quite nice to look at at Brixton!

Uncle Liam wrote: And she was quite nice to look at at Brixton!

Hey then why don't New Order get Beyonce and Christina Aguilera up on stage with them too?

Seriously, if the main reason for Dawn being there is because she looks good, then New Order have really sold out.

And if they have to have wailing backing vocals I'd much prefer a singer with a distinctive voice like Bjork or Kate Bush, Dawn just sounds like any other professional soul session singer.

See I don't get why people call Dawn Zee "soulful"? Is it because she's black?

I find her backing work with New Order to be some of the most trite soul-less garbage I've ever heard.

I like Dawn Zee, I think her vocalsare great.

I like her group Jersey Street and their song 'Cried Me A River'.

I know you all want Gillian back in the group doing background vox like in 'Avalanche' but really, for background vocals, Dawn Zee's work is nice. :)

daithi wrote: Should New Order ditch those 'soulful' backing singers like Dawn Zee and just do all the vocals themselves like they used to?

They had backing singers in the past too: Subculture, Shellshock, State of the Nation, ... Nothing really new in this. Plus, only a few of their recent songs had backing singers.

ChrissMari wrote: See I don't get why people call Dawn Zee "soulful"? Is it because she's black?

I find her backing work with New Order to be some of the most trite soul-less garbage I've ever heard.

I used the term 'soulful' not because I find her voice 'soulful' but because all that vocal gymnastic ooh and aahing type of crap is unfortunately considered 'soul' singing by some. and my use of the term 'soulful' is certainly not because she is black either, I didn't even know she was black having never seen what she looks like, but Uncle Liam reliably informs us she's 'good to look at', so I may have to do some internet research

They had backing singers in the past too: Subculture, Shellshock, State of the Nation, ... Nothing really new in this. Plus, only a few of their recent songs had backing singers.

Subculture, Shellshock, State of the Nation - hmm, they all had backing singers did they? Maybe that's why I never listen to those songs now! All three are amongst my least favourite NO songs. Who did the backing vocals on those songs?

daithi wrote:

I used the term 'soulful' not because I find her voice 'soulful' but because all that vocal gymnastic ooh and aahing type of crap is unfortunately considered 'soul' singing by some. and my use of the term 'soulful' is certainly not because she is black either, I didn't even know she was black having never seen what she looks like, but Uncle Liam reliably informs us she's 'good to look at', so I may have to do some internet research

I wasn't talking about you necessarily... it's just a term i hear thrown about a lot to describe her. I get your reasoning now.

Also, she's not much to look at..kinda thin and hard face

Uncle Liam wrote: And she was quite nice to look at at Brixton!

Gillian ,standing in the wings, was a lovelier sight

Simple answer is 'no'! But I, on the other hand, would be much better. I used to front a band called Kitty & The Tom'hawks. Mind you, I was 12 at the time. However, and there's always an however, I did write some lyrics for an instrumental by Robert Palmer, and his personal secretary rang me up - at home - about it. What happened - he went and died on me......... And I wasn't being nasty there, he just did.

Years ago, pre 90s. No. But since then I say yes. I like it. And I think dawn is nice.

Plus jetstream is a catchy pop song in my book. I like that too.

:bag:

Apart from DZ (respect! cool chick, not much of a beauty but there's certainly something about her yeah! plus must be a hard work that standing there and getting all confused with Barney's fucking up the lyrics again - if, by some reason, this line happens to be grammatically incorrect, forgive my ignorance I blame it on my insomnia these days :P .... Anyway I find all the other backing vocals rather annoying, Guilt especially, they just freak me out!! Funnily enough I don't mind them at all on Electronic's RTP. Hypocrite!!

I've never liked the idea of backing singers - when I saw Blur they had a 21 strong choir, ffs.

I don't mind Dawn, but I really don't see the point : apart from "Crystal" she adds nothing major to the songs, and if they do have her, the least they can do is add the older songs that have wailing vocals (World, Subculture, State Of The Nation) and mix the set around a little.

I honestly don't like any backing vocals whatsoever, especially if they're female. However, I'd rather listen to Gillian do the backing vocals than anyone else. It really distracts me (especially cause I like Bernard's voice a lot.)

NO!

New Order and backup female singers is losing part of the band's specialness.

They are a a 3-some with a different 4th over the years.

What next, horn players?

Fuck all these tedious session backing singers - if they want a female in the band so badly then why not have Gillian back in the line up for fucks sakes?

I don't mind them, I think they add needed depth to many of the chorus verses, Barney's voice is really too reedy to carry one on its own. However, I only vouch for this because they've stopped using their trademark studio trick of making multiple recordings of Bernard doing the chorus and playing them simultaneously on top of each other for that nice reverberating effect. My favorites were on Brotherhood, where it really seemed like they had recorded to entirely different vocal tracks (with different lyrics) for entire songs and played them over each other.

Granted, it's a technique that screams "Eighties" louder than digital delayed drums, nevermind that I like those too (Ahem).

Backing vocals give New Order something extra. Like harmony or extra oomph. keep them!!

To re-iterate what's already been said really....

If I'D been producing most of those tracks I never would have put those vocals on em. But Dawn's a cool chick and a good singer (WTF she's doing with these bozo's I dunno). So short of Gillian doing it, she's my first choice. And sometimes it DOES work, WORLD, as has been mentioned, and on Run Wild as well I think.

And Dawn's better on stage than a sampler, at least she has a chance to react to whatever their beloved leader likes to do to the lyrics (tho, bless her I think she must try to tune the bugger out to try and hold her own part (and maybe give him a hand) )

Mind you, sampler's cheaper and doesn't try to get you lifted ( I wonder what that little tale was about)

:D

I love Dawn, I think shes great !

Hannett of the Apes wrote: .....they've stopped using their trademark studio trick of making multiple recordings of Bernard doing the chorus and playing them simultaneously on top of each other for that nice reverberating effect. My favorites were on Brotherhood, where it really seemed like they had recorded to entirely different vocal tracks (with different lyrics) for entire songs and played them over each other.

Yeah - you're right about that one - but he did that on "Low Life" first - the end of the track "This Time Of Night" being the prime example. :)

Steve Campbell wrote: To re-iterate what's already been said really....

If I'D been producing most of those tracks I never would have put those vocals on em. But Dawn's a cool chick and a good singer (WTF she's doing with these bozo's I dunno). So short of Gillian doing it, she's my first choice. And sometimes it DOES work, WORLD, as has been mentioned, and on Run Wild as well I think. :D

I'd agree with the 'WORLD'theory, the backing vocals kind of work there but I think the backing vocals on Run Wild are very cheesey and take the songs melancholy away, that 'good times around the corner' bit really makes me cringe when I hear it, the backing vocals make it sound like a shitty la la la pop song.

Run Wild is a stomach-churningly corny song anyway and I cannot believe New Order even lent their name to that piece of sentimental pseudo-hippy dreck.

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote:

Hannett of the Apes wrote: .....they've stopped using their trademark studio trick of making multiple recordings of Bernard doing the chorus and playing them simultaneously on top of each other for that nice reverberating effect. My favorites were on Brotherhood, where it really seemed like they had recorded to entirely different vocal tracks (with different lyrics) for entire songs and played them over each other.

Yeah - you're right about that one - but he did that on "Low Life" first - the end of the track "This Time Of Night" being the prime example. :)

I always thought Hooky sang "whatever you may do to me, dont take away my dignity"

Long live Dawn Zee! Induct her to the band King Sumner!

Although not necessary; the back up adds another texture to the songs which I think is a positive...

the backing vocals worked for Crystal, but thats about it for me.

I dont think the background vocals are very good...but niether are BS's. BUT, I happen to love BS's imperfect vocals, and I gotta love NO's imperfect choices...it's THIER production, they've made the choices from the gitgo, and I almost always love the final product, no matter how imperfect, or ridiculous, like jetstream.

Now, as for thier record companies' choices, well, thats a diff story

NO Regret wrote:

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote:

Hannett of the Apes wrote: .....they've stopped using their trademark studio trick of making multiple recordings of Bernard doing the chorus and playing them simultaneously on top of each other for that nice reverberating effect. My favorites were on Brotherhood, where it really seemed like they had recorded to entirely different vocal tracks (with different lyrics) for entire songs and played them over each other.

Yeah - you're right about that one - but he did that on "Low Life" first - the end of the track "This Time Of Night" being the prime example. :)

I always thought Hooky sang "whatever you may do to me, dont take away my dignity"

Hooky? I was always of the impression that it was Barney backing himself on that track - as indeed he does on all the Brotherhood ones.

I can very easily live without those female backing vocals. they weren't needed in the past, and should i feel not be on songs that were recorded without them like TF.its better then using taped ones though as they did in Oz. somehow it doesn't quite seem very rock n roll.

dont fret kid its cool you have your opinion on this and people will give shite about your opinion whatever it is.i bet if u said new order are cool as fuck i love them they are the bestest band in the whole wide world some nob would still dispute it even though they are on the new order website lovin the band and probably have new order for every occassion and wud gladly geta brown head from rectum entry of any of the band. anyway i know what you mean she doesnt sound that hot really sounds better on albums/singles rather than live.she isnt exactly janis jopp or annie lennox and is kinda ten a penny...im sorry all you fans of hers!

:p but using a tape recording is so retro dont u know darling!:D

who is your little purple friend in the pic? will u dye my neighbours stoopid cat that ran in a mirror today!

can i just say how imperfect is bob dylans voice or neil young and for fucks sake neil youngs the proper shit guys so if vocals sound a little poo and they suit the style then thats cool but with the recent new order female singer she aint that good and im sure they could find someone a little better they probably used to be mates with her mam or something and now they feel they have to let her step on stage and wail abit.:D

I don't mind the backing singers, but I would rather that NO went old school and didn't use them except occasionally (as in World). While we're on the subject of outside help, to be honest, I don't think the use of outside producers on NO's albums has really helped either and I would prefer they didn't use them. It was a cool concept to use producers on singles and not albums, and as NO are not really a major commercial force, why not go back to the old ways? While I like what Stephen Hague does with Pet Shop Boys, Erasure, and Dubstar, his only good contribution to NO seems to be on True Faith. The rerecording of Round and Round for a single was unnecessary and his production of Republic turned it into a pop record during the era of balls-out grunge and roughly produced rock.

NO Regret wrote:

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote:

Hannett of the Apes wrote: .....they've stopped using their trademark studio trick of making multiple recordings of Bernard doing the chorus and playing them simultaneously on top of each other for that nice reverberating effect. My favorites were on Brotherhood, where it really seemed like they had recorded to entirely different vocal tracks (with different lyrics) for entire songs and played them over each other.

Yeah - you're right about that one - but he did that on "Low Life" first - the end of the track "This Time Of Night" being the prime example. :)

I always thought Hooky sang "whatever you may do to me, dont take away my dignity"

Yeah it's definitely Hooky on this time of night.

Am I wrong in thinking it's Gillian on Shame of the Nation?

daithi wrote: So in another thread I've been criticising Dawn Zee because I can't stand that vocal style and think it is particularly out of place with New Order. Some people seem to object to this and are defending her.

So what do the rest of you think?

Should New Order ditch those 'soulful' backing singers like Dawn Zee and just do all the vocals themselves like they used to?

Maybe get Gillian back into the studio to do some proper backing vocals?

Or is Dawn Zee the icing on the cake for you?

I gleefully await a bitter dispute

I have not heard it yet, (my whole New Order collection is older stuff) but it sounds like she might be better suited for a R&B act, or maybe a House vocalist.

I think they should get Gillian back in! It is a disappointment to hear that they could be overdoing it with too much vocals and production.

I usually dislike "soul" (so stereotypical and clich'e) except in some House tracks, and nowadays everyone seems to be trying to "hip-hop" it up too much-

(playing into the African-American stereotypes too much...seems like the Afro-American -no offense, I am a racial minority myself, being Tahitian- artists always play into the R&B/Soul/Rap thing and it is getting so predictable...that is why I am not watching Usher's latest movie, a violent hip-hop dj-would have been better if he played a Trance dj!)

-and also everyone lately seems to go a bit over-the-top on the vocals om their releases.

One thing that attracted me to New Order was they used the "less is more" approach and the vocals were so clear, clean, and simple, not over-done or over-produced. Bernies vocals have a quality I appreciated.

Too much background singers and too much over-production makes a band sound like they are trying just a smidge too hard, and it is a huge turn-off.

Less is more sometimes.

Keep it simple, with the vocals.

It can work both ways...

i.e.;

Behind Closed Doors is brilliant, but simple.

The Perfect Kiss is brilliant, but complex.

craig's digitalwaters wrote: It can work both ways...

i.e.;

Behind Closed Doors is brilliant, but simple.

The Perfect Kiss is brilliant, but complex.

(me) I always thought TPK was lyrically and vocally a bit more simple, than alot of tracks done today, and that is what I was meaning...If you are referring to the instrumentation, then yes, TPK is indeed quite complex....and it is my favourite of all time.

What I was referring to, was the over-use of too many background vocals, often too busy and too loud, that seems to plague most of today's releases, and overly-busy instrumentation seems to be the norm nowadays as well...every producer has all the latest computer Pro-Tools in his or her studio, and feels it is necessary to fill EVERY single track on the multitrack recording, even if it has over a hundred tracks...back in the day, four to thirty-two tracks was the norm, and not all of those were used. Just because you have that many tracks available, does not mean that you HAVE to use them up. I am not giving up my reel-to-reel, that is for sure! I like to do it old-skool. Many producers nowadays do not know when to say "when" a track is finished.

TPK, while musically complex, is smooth, and not what I would call "busy" and jazzed up with crap like horn sections and loud rock and roll guitars, and background vocals all over the place...TPK is very dreamy and ambient, and the drum layers and samples, and the layered synths and bass-line are well-performed, and an example of utter perfection, and to me it is the way it all should be done. Complex, and layered, Danceable and uplifting, The low end in the drums are there, but not overbearing, the orchestration is brilliantly arranged, and full, yet with a somewhat chilled and minimal feel that not too many artists can pull off nowadays.

Well-produced, but not over-produced.

Everything fits, and everything works, with no excess. That is the way it needs to be done more often. That is why The Perfect Kiss is a brilliant production.