New Order's backing singers Dawn Zee etc. Are they really necessary?

So in another thread I've been criticising Dawn Zee because I can't stand that vocal style and think it is particularly out of place with New Order. Some people seem to object to this and are defending her.

So what do the rest of you think?

Should New Order ditch those 'soulful' backing singers like Dawn Zee and just do all the vocals themselves like they used to?

Maybe get Gillian back into the studio to do some proper backing vocals?

Or is Dawn Zee the icing on the cake for you?

I gleefully await a bitter dispute

Can't say I'm a big fan of waily female backing vocals on NO tracks, but if anyone should do them, then it should be Dawn. She's cool.

And she was quite nice to look at at Brixton!

Uncle Liam wrote: And she was quite nice to look at at Brixton!

Hey then why don't New Order get Beyonce and Christina Aguilera up on stage with them too?

Seriously, if the main reason for Dawn being there is because she looks good, then New Order have really sold out.

And if they have to have wailing backing vocals I'd much prefer a singer with a distinctive voice like Bjork or Kate Bush, Dawn just sounds like any other professional soul session singer.

See I don't get why people call Dawn Zee "soulful"? Is it because she's black?

I find her backing work with New Order to be some of the most trite soul-less garbage I've ever heard.

I like Dawn Zee, I think her vocalsare great.

I like her group Jersey Street and their song 'Cried Me A River'.

I know you all want Gillian back in the group doing background vox like in 'Avalanche' but really, for background vocals, Dawn Zee's work is nice. :)

daithi wrote: Should New Order ditch those 'soulful' backing singers like Dawn Zee and just do all the vocals themselves like they used to?

They had backing singers in the past too: Subculture, Shellshock, State of the Nation, ... Nothing really new in this. Plus, only a few of their recent songs had backing singers.

ChrissMari wrote: See I don't get why people call Dawn Zee "soulful"? Is it because she's black?

I find her backing work with New Order to be some of the most trite soul-less garbage I've ever heard.

I used the term 'soulful' not because I find her voice 'soulful' but because all that vocal gymnastic ooh and aahing type of crap is unfortunately considered 'soul' singing by some. and my use of the term 'soulful' is certainly not because she is black either, I didn't even know she was black having never seen what she looks like, but Uncle Liam reliably informs us she's 'good to look at', so I may have to do some internet research

They had backing singers in the past too: Subculture, Shellshock, State of the Nation, ... Nothing really new in this. Plus, only a few of their recent songs had backing singers.

Subculture, Shellshock, State of the Nation - hmm, they all had backing singers did they? Maybe that's why I never listen to those songs now! All three are amongst my least favourite NO songs. Who did the backing vocals on those songs?

daithi wrote:

I used the term 'soulful' not because I find her voice 'soulful' but because all that vocal gymnastic ooh and aahing type of crap is unfortunately considered 'soul' singing by some. and my use of the term 'soulful' is certainly not because she is black either, I didn't even know she was black having never seen what she looks like, but Uncle Liam reliably informs us she's 'good to look at', so I may have to do some internet research

I wasn't talking about you necessarily... it's just a term i hear thrown about a lot to describe her. I get your reasoning now.

Also, she's not much to look at..kinda thin and hard face

Uncle Liam wrote: And she was quite nice to look at at Brixton!

Gillian ,standing in the wings, was a lovelier sight

Simple answer is 'no'! But I, on the other hand, would be much better. I used to front a band called Kitty & The Tom'hawks. Mind you, I was 12 at the time. However, and there's always an however, I did write some lyrics for an instrumental by Robert Palmer, and his personal secretary rang me up - at home - about it. What happened - he went and died on me......... And I wasn't being nasty there, he just did.

Years ago, pre 90s. No. But since then I say yes. I like it. And I think dawn is nice.

Plus jetstream is a catchy pop song in my book. I like that too.

:bag:

Apart from DZ (respect! cool chick, not much of a beauty but there's certainly something about her yeah! plus must be a hard work that standing there and getting all confused with Barney's fucking up the lyrics again - if, by some reason, this line happens to be grammatically incorrect, forgive my ignorance I blame it on my insomnia these days :P .... Anyway I find all the other backing vocals rather annoying, Guilt especially, they just freak me out!! Funnily enough I don't mind them at all on Electronic's RTP. Hypocrite!!

I've never liked the idea of backing singers - when I saw Blur they had a 21 strong choir, ffs.

I don't mind Dawn, but I really don't see the point : apart from "Crystal" she adds nothing major to the songs, and if they do have her, the least they can do is add the older songs that have wailing vocals (World, Subculture, State Of The Nation) and mix the set around a little.

I honestly don't like any backing vocals whatsoever, especially if they're female. However, I'd rather listen to Gillian do the backing vocals than anyone else. It really distracts me (especially cause I like Bernard's voice a lot.)

NO!

New Order and backup female singers is losing part of the band's specialness.

They are a a 3-some with a different 4th over the years.

What next, horn players?

Fuck all these tedious session backing singers - if they want a female in the band so badly then why not have Gillian back in the line up for fucks sakes?

I don't mind them, I think they add needed depth to many of the chorus verses, Barney's voice is really too reedy to carry one on its own. However, I only vouch for this because they've stopped using their trademark studio trick of making multiple recordings of Bernard doing the chorus and playing them simultaneously on top of each other for that nice reverberating effect. My favorites were on Brotherhood, where it really seemed like they had recorded to entirely different vocal tracks (with different lyrics) for entire songs and played them over each other.

Granted, it's a technique that screams "Eighties" louder than digital delayed drums, nevermind that I like those too (Ahem).

Backing vocals give New Order something extra. Like harmony or extra oomph. keep them!!

To re-iterate what's already been said really....

If I'D been producing most of those tracks I never would have put those vocals on em. But Dawn's a cool chick and a good singer (WTF she's doing with these bozo's I dunno). So short of Gillian doing it, she's my first choice. And sometimes it DOES work, WORLD, as has been mentioned, and on Run Wild as well I think.

And Dawn's better on stage than a sampler, at least she has a chance to react to whatever their beloved leader likes to do to the lyrics (tho, bless her I think she must try to tune the bugger out to try and hold her own part (and maybe give him a hand) )

Mind you, sampler's cheaper and doesn't try to get you lifted ( I wonder what that little tale was about)

:D

I love Dawn, I think shes great !

Hannett of the Apes wrote: .....they've stopped using their trademark studio trick of making multiple recordings of Bernard doing the chorus and playing them simultaneously on top of each other for that nice reverberating effect. My favorites were on Brotherhood, where it really seemed like they had recorded to entirely different vocal tracks (with different lyrics) for entire songs and played them over each other.

Yeah - you're right about that one - but he did that on "Low Life" first - the end of the track "This Time Of Night" being the prime example. :)

Steve Campbell wrote: To re-iterate what's already been said really....

If I'D been producing most of those tracks I never would have put those vocals on em. But Dawn's a cool chick and a good singer (WTF she's doing with these bozo's I dunno). So short of Gillian doing it, she's my first choice. And sometimes it DOES work, WORLD, as has been mentioned, and on Run Wild as well I think. :D

I'd agree with the 'WORLD'theory, the backing vocals kind of work there but I think the backing vocals on Run Wild are very cheesey and take the songs melancholy away, that 'good times around the corner' bit really makes me cringe when I hear it, the backing vocals make it sound like a shitty la la la pop song.

Run Wild is a stomach-churningly corny song anyway and I cannot believe New Order even lent their name to that piece of sentimental pseudo-hippy dreck.

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote:

Hannett of the Apes wrote: .....they've stopped using their trademark studio trick of making multiple recordings of Bernard doing the chorus and playing them simultaneously on top of each other for that nice reverberating effect. My favorites were on Brotherhood, where it really seemed like they had recorded to entirely different vocal tracks (with different lyrics) for entire songs and played them over each other.

Yeah - you're right about that one - but he did that on "Low Life" first - the end of the track "This Time Of Night" being the prime example. :)

I always thought Hooky sang "whatever you may do to me, dont take away my dignity"

Long live Dawn Zee! Induct her to the band King Sumner!

Although not necessary; the back up adds another texture to the songs which I think is a positive...

the backing vocals worked for Crystal, but thats about it for me.

I dont think the background vocals are very good...but niether are BS's. BUT, I happen to love BS's imperfect vocals, and I gotta love NO's imperfect choices...it's THIER production, they've made the choices from the gitgo, and I almost always love the final product, no matter how imperfect, or ridiculous, like jetstream.

Now, as for thier record companies' choices, well, thats a diff story