Why all the apathy for Movement?

I think it's a solid album. It's different, in that it's moreso rock, and more raw than the polished glossy sheen of latter day New Order, but it still has some great stuff. I know he's singing like Ian. I know it's Joy Division esque. To me Movement almost sounds like them taking Joy Division's classic sound and streamlining it a bit for a wider audience. More synths and a bit poppier than traditional JD, but still rooted in the same aestetic. But how can you go wrong with Dream Never End, Truth, The Him, ICB! (one of New Order's most hard rockin songs ever!, and Denial. The song with Peter Hook singing is kind of weak, but for the most part I think it's a good album. Maybe it's no coincidence that I also really like Brotherhood and Get Ready, two of New Order's more "rock oriented" albums.

J

Two reasons, I suppose: the production is iffy, muddy and muddled and the other tracks from 81-82 were/are so strong... The first Peel Session showed just how good the tracks were...

SHEDi xxx

I think the apathy is for the production - it certainly isnt for the songs. Movement is the one album of theirs I listen to more than any other but its the most frustrating too because it could be so much better. I can say the same for PCL too.

i think it's a boring album; the only song that stands out is DNE. considering their other output from the era (as mentioned earlier)--ceremony, EGG, hurt, temptation--movement just falls flat and is easily forgotten.

just listen to factus8 an think of what could have been if the production had been different.

That's the album I need to get for my NO collection. I have all other albums.

[magenta]shedmonite61[/magenta] wrote: That's the album I need to get for my NO collection. I have all other albums.

dont believe the Hype, its a good record, its different though

get it!

I love Movement. My favorite song is on here (Doubts Even Here). Every single track is a classic in my mind, and surprisingly, the one that gets all the glory, Dreams Never End, is my least favorite on the album. This album is amazing. But don't take my word for it. hahaha Anyways...

Apart from Dreams Never End and ICB it is a rather bad album.
You can always listen to an album over and over again and start liking it. - As seems to be with lots of people praising the album. Not a good album.

Ripper opening track.

The life is sucked out of most of the drums though. But I wouldnt write it off, it has some great tracks, no question.

I don't quite understand this apathy towards 'Movement' either.. I first heared this album when i was 16 years old..I'd found a box of old Vynil records laying around in an old shed..full of early 80's records.. the only new order album i owned was technique so this perked my interest... when i put it on i could instantly hear connections to Nine Inch Nails and ive been in love with this LP ever since!! its a great listen during roud trips and sex

When this LP first came out didn't any of you even consider that it may be a little ahead of it's time style wise?

I love Movement! True, I can sort of see why it might not be up everyone's alley--it's missing a little something that JD had and that NO would have a little later on. It's interesting as the link between JD and full-fledged NO, though.

My favourites are "Truth," "Chosen Time," "DEH," and "DNE." The whole album is more amorphous than what preceded or followed it, but I love the atmosphere it creates.

On a side note, that is Gillian doing the talking during "Doubts Even Here," right?

yep it is Gillian speaking. DNE and DEH are two great songs. i do feel however, that the Peel Sessions bettered the album versions of the tunes, and songs like Chosen Time and ICB sometimes sound better live (on the few bottlegs ive heard)

I love Movement. My favorite song is on here (Doubts Even Here). Every single track is a classic in my mind, and surprisingly, the one that gets all the glory, Dreams Never End, is my least favorite on the album. This album is amazing. But don't take my word for it.

I totaly agree, CHOSEN TIME is awesome, the album is the best they have ever made. Check out SENSES and THE HIM

Well, personally, I don't really like the production, and since I didn't like their output as JD that much (I know it's heresy), I don't like how it's halfway between their later stuff and the JD stuff. Plus, it makes me feel bad for the band because of what they were going through at the time so it also becomes an unnecessary downer...

It's just not very good in my view. There are certainly songs that could have been great on it (the first and 2nd, the last 2 and Chosen Time had the most potential to me), but the production had similar problems as brotherhood, very muddy, very, very dull and flat in tone. Brotherhood managed to overcome that to a greater degree because they were just writing better tunes at that point (Weirdo, As it is when it was, BLT, All Day Long all were classics hurt by the production qualities but still clearly great songs).

For me, the lyrics are just very stilted, the music is mediocre and erratic, and the production is ghastly. However the songs are very interesting in the soundscapes they provide, the atmosphere, and you get the feeling it could have been better. I think it's telling that the band never went on very long playing material off of it, and most of the band didn't like it much either. You can't really say that about most of the other albums and more often than not I tend to trust their judgement (I think the albums they liked least were Movement, and Republic, which mirror my unhappiness quite well).

Polaroid Kiss wrote: When this LP first came out didn't any of you even consider that it may be a little ahead of it's time style wise?

Funny you should say that, I do think it sounds better now than it did back then. The dull production is a bit off-putting, but for me, at the time, I wanted this to be more upbeat, less morose, more like EGG & Ceremony anyway. Theres still plenty to like about this album & i listen to it a lot more now than I used to

I can't speak to it being ahead of it's time since I listened to it for the first time a full nine years after it came out. however it never struck me as ahead of its time. BLT, Perfect Kiss etc appeared ahead of their time, as they failed to chart at all from memory, but in the case of the former became an absolute dance anthem in clubs all over my country, and in the case of the latter was a work of utter genius which remains completely unknown outside of among fans of New Order. Movement didn't spawn anything noticeable that I ever noticed beyond perhaps helping urge along the transition towards songs like Temptation, Hurt, 5 8 6 and the like which would inform later New Order breakthroughs.

The revisionism with the album has always puzzled me. I'm baffled as to why some consider it so impressive or a favorite, it is nowhere near as accomplished in my view as PCL, Low-Life, or Technique, and I'd take their post 40 year old records over it as well. Their later albums simply had much better everything, better music, melodies, vocals, lyrics (well, not always), better vocals, better production, it was really one of the two low points for the band (the other being the meat of the Republic album, which interestingly often appears to be a fav album of Movement fans I've come across).

So, what's so wrong about the production of Movement??? I think Hannett did a wonderful job here, and created a real gloomy and menacing atmosphere, just as those songs are meant to be. If you appreciate that kind of feelings it's just a perfect album...

"It's just something I know, the answer's not there It comes and it goes and it frightens me"

Ruined in a day wrote: So, what's so wrong about the production of Movement??? I think Hannett did a wonderful job here, and created a real gloomy and menacing atmosphere, just as those songs are meant to be. If you appreciate that kind of feelings it's just a perfect album...

"It's just something I know, the answer's not there It comes and it goes and it frightens me"

I'm no musician or technical fundi but to me the atmosphere Hannett created detracts from the energy of the music and actually muffles it. This is most evident on Chosen Time, the end of Senses, Denial and even Dreams Never End. These songs were very powerful live. The Him they often messed up when they played it and Doubts Even Here only really featured up to early 1981, so the album versions sound good to me. The rest have had a shroud thrown upon them. Bernard probably hated it for the morose sound to the vocals. Whether you blame Hannett for that is debatable.

If you consider PCL, its the same for The Village, We All Stand - this was quite an upbeat song live - and Ultraviolence, even Age of Consent to a degree. Just remember how disappointed I was back then after the first couple of plays of both of these albums...

The production on Movement is absolutely fantastic - probably Hannett's best. There's no point in viewing the songs as somehow 'separate' from the production and thinking they would sound 'better' some other way. You have to take it as it is. Often critics of Movement seem to wish that it sounded somehow more conventional, with the uptempo tracks more 'rocking' etc etc. But the genius of the work lies in its oddness - instruments in strange places in the mix, drums as lead instrument, treated guitar and keyboard textures, washes of noise... in fact it's very Can-like (or Pere Ubu-like) in the way that the instruments are uncoupled from their normal roles at times. But it's the production, rather than sheer musicianship, that achieves this, as Hannet fucks around with everything's natural place in the mix. Also bear in mind that post-punk c.1981 everyone was trying to find something new, or at least a new way to present something old. That was the spirit of the times and there was some pretty radical music being made in the spirit of severing the umbilical cord that led back to trad-rock. (Think Scritti Politti, Raincoats, Josef K, Pop Group). On those terms Movement is up there with the absolute best.

hadnt realised there were quite so many production Nazis on this forum.... take it you guys dont like any velvet underground, fall or jesus and mary chain records?

Stephen Smith wrote: Their later albums simply had much better everything, better music, melodies, vocals, lyrics (well, not always), better vocals, better production, it was really one of the two low points for the band (the other being the meat of the Republic album, which interestingly often appears to be a fav album of Movement fans I've come across).

How are they 'better'? You state this as if it were an undeniable truth.

I think Republic was a low-point though - the first album which didn't push ahead of its contemporaries and create some new territory. Still an interesting listen though - and I do concede that I may be missing something.

You cannot properly review Movement out of context. You can't listen to it after hearing Blue Monday or Temptation or PCL or Technique or whatever later songs got you into New Order. None of these songs existed in 1981 - all that we had to go on was JD and Ceremony/Procession. Given this sequence, Movement made perfect sense as a post-punk album - think Metal Box by PIL as a good comparison. Yes it's gloomy, yes it's claustrophoic, yes it's unconventional - it's meant to be those things.

People who say it's not as good as, say, Technqique or Sirens are totally missing the point - it wasn't made for people who like those kind of songs, the intended audience was entirely different.

I was disappointed by Movement when it came out - but only because it wasn't as good as Closer, not because it didn't have pop songs on it with 'proper' singing and melodies and choruses - if you wanted that shit then go and listen to feckin' Duran Duran! New order were not supposed to be the The Pet Shop Boys, they were carrying the JD torch and in that context, Movement makes perfect sense.

DC wrote: The production on Movement is absolutely fantastic - probably Hannett's best. There's no point in viewing the songs as somehow 'separate' from the production and thinking they would sound 'better' some other way. You have to take it as it is. Often critics of Movement seem to wish that it sounded somehow more conventional, with the uptempo tracks more 'rocking' etc etc. But the genius of the work lies in its oddness - instruments in strange places in the mix, drums as lead instrument, treated guitar and keyboard textures, washes of noise... in fact it's very Can-like (or Pere Ubu-like) in the way that the instruments are uncoupled from their normal roles at times. But it's the production, rather than sheer musicianship, that achieves this, as Hannet fucks around with everything's natural place in the mix. Also bear in mind that post-punk c.1981 everyone was trying to find something new, or at least a new way to present something old. That was the spirit of the times and there was some pretty radical music being made in the spirit of severing the umbilical cord that led back to trad-rock. (Think Scritti Politti, Raincoats, Josef K, Pop Group). On those terms Movement is up there with the absolute best.

Maybe it was Hannett's "best", but this was New Order's music and they were pretty unhappy with the end product. Bernard in The Face: "We always know how we want to sound. The way we write a song is usually to start off by improvising in the rehearsal room. Then we take it out live. Sometimes you haven't got any lyrics , so you just make up some garbage. Then you listen to live tapes, write some more words, and go back and rehearse some more. By the time we record it, we pretty well know how it should be. I absolutely hated Movement. I've hated it since I first heard it. Never played it since. I was so angry with Movement, having to put out a record I didnt like."

I'll take the songs how I choose to, thanks! I'm not trying to write an NME review here, just expressing why I and quite a few others were disappointed when the record came out. New Order were certainly not trying to present something old in a new way and Movement was more about seeing if they still had the means to carry on. I dont think severing the umbilical cord with trad-rock was at the forefront of any of their minds back then.

Shug wrote: First time I've been called a production Nazi

Sorry, but for me personally I would have liked a more 'energetic' production on songs like Truth, Senses and Chosen Time. Maybe it's cos I listened to the early live gigs more than the album itself

You saved me a post Shug!

Read the terms of use of the site before you think about posting something like that here? We're just expressing opinions, nothing more.

Geoff Hamilton wrote:

DC wrote: The production on Movement is absolutely fantastic - probably Hannett's best. There's no point in viewing the songs as somehow 'separate' from the production and thinking they would sound 'better' some other way. You have to take it as it is. Often critics of Movement seem to wish that it sounded somehow more conventional, with the uptempo tracks more 'rocking' etc etc. But the genius of the work lies in its oddness - instruments in strange places in the mix, drums as lead instrument, treated guitar and keyboard textures, washes of noise... in fact it's very Can-like (or Pere Ubu-like) in the way that the instruments are uncoupled from their normal roles at times. But it's the production, rather than sheer musicianship, that achieves this, as Hannet fucks around with everything's natural place in the mix. Also bear in mind that post-punk c.1981 everyone was trying to find something new, or at least a new way to present something old. That was the spirit of the times and there was some pretty radical music being made in the spirit of severing the umbilical cord that led back to trad-rock. (Think Scritti Politti, Raincoats, Josef K, Pop Group). On those terms Movement is up there with the absolute best.

Maybe it was Hannett's "best", but this was New Order's music and they were pretty unhappy with the end product. Bernard in The Face: "We always know how we want to sound. The way we write a song is usually to start off by improvising in the rehearsal room. Then we take it out live. Sometimes you haven't got any lyrics , so you just make up some garbage. Then you listen to live tapes, write some more words, and go back and rehearse some more. By the time we record it, we pretty well know how it should be. I absolutely hated Movement. I've hated it since I first heard it. Never played it since. I was so angry with Movement, having to put out a record I didnt like."

I'll take the songs how I choose to, thanks! I'm not trying to write an NME review here, just expressing why I and quite a few others were disappointed when the record came out. New Order were certainly not trying to present something old in a new way and Movement was more about seeing if they still had the means to carry on. I dont think severing the umbilical cord with trad-rock was at the forefront of any of their minds back then.

No, but it the recd was made in that context, even if Barney would have been happier sounding like the Stooges.

I'll take it how I choose to, too. I loved it when it came out and I love it today.

DC wrote: even if Barney would have been happier sounding like the Stooges.

25 years later they reached this goal with Working Overtime. Too late.

I am happy Hannett produced Movement like HE wanted it. Hannett's a genius. Full stop.

I look at MOvement sort of as a similar album to Genesis "A Trick Of the Tail". People who loved the Peter Gabriel era loved that album, as it was the first after Gabriel left and Phil Collins sounded just like him and the lyrics were Gabrielesque. However, Genesis fans who prefer the poppier Phil Collins stuff do not care as much for that record, and prefer something like Abacab or Invisible Touch. Just a comparison.

J

Movement does seem inferior compared to Closer and Power, Corruption, and Lies, which came before and after. lots of good ideas on Movement thou but the production seems to bury them sometimes, especially the rock elements... listen to how distant "Denial" seems, or "Dreams Never End"...

Hannent must have been really strung out on the smack at the time...

This topic made me listen to Movement start to finish and I was surprised how good it sounded - usually I skip a fair few songs but not this time. For me it's an album I have to be in a certain mood/place to listen to all the way through, and even then I probably don't listen to it for a very long time after that. Not my favourite New order album (not even in the top 3) and the band may hate it but it was probably a necessary step to New Order continuing after Joy Division.

Geoff Hamilton wrote:

DC wrote: The production on Movement is absolutely fantastic - probably Hannett's best. There's no point in viewing the songs as somehow 'separate' from the production and thinking they would sound 'better' some other way. You have to take it as it is. Often critics of Movement seem to wish that it sounded somehow more conventional, with the uptempo tracks more 'rocking' etc etc. But the genius of the work lies in its oddness - instruments in strange places in the mix, drums as lead instrument, treated guitar and keyboard textures, washes of noise... in fact it's very Can-like (or Pere Ubu-like) in the way that the instruments are uncoupled from their normal roles at times. But it's the production, rather than sheer musicianship, that achieves this, as Hannet fucks around with everything's natural place in the mix. Also bear in mind that post-punk c.1981 everyone was trying to find something new, or at least a new way to present something old. That was the spirit of the times and there was some pretty radical music being made in the spirit of severing the umbilical cord that led back to trad-rock. (Think Scritti Politti, Raincoats, Josef K, Pop Group). On those terms Movement is up there with the absolute best.

Maybe it was Hannett's "best", but this was New Order's music and they were pretty unhappy with the end product. Bernard in The Face: "We always know how we want to sound. The way we write a song is usually to start off by improvising in the rehearsal room. Then we take it out live. Sometimes you haven't got any lyrics , so you just make up some garbage. Then you listen to live tapes, write some more words, and go back and rehearse some more. By the time we record it, we pretty well know how it should be. I absolutely hated Movement. I've hated it since I first heard it. Never played it since. I was so angry with Movement, having to put out a record I didnt like."

I'll take the songs how I choose to, thanks! I'm not trying to write an NME review here, just expressing why I and quite a few others were disappointed when the record came out. New Order were certainly not trying to present something old in a new way and Movement was more about seeing if they still had the means to carry on. I dont think severing the umbilical cord with trad-rock was at the forefront of any of their minds back then.

My thoughts exactly. If I recall correctly, only Hooky seemed to like the album amongst the original members and he rarely rips any of their catalogue as a matter of course. I know Barney hated it, and I've never heard Stephen or Gillian refer to it with any degree of warmth. I also think it's telling that really none of the material was played life much beyond '82 or '83 whereas material from every other record they've recorded was a part of their playlists for far, far longer. I trust New Order far more to realize their own musical direction and style than Hannett. No doubt Hannet was a very interesting, and at times Genius producer, but I dont believe anything he ever did for New Order was remotely as good as his work with Joy Division. His style just seemed to mesh much better with their days with Ian, than their days afterwards.

As for how I can say better, its pretty simple, at this time Barney was neither comfortable as a lyricist, nor as a vocalist, so both are erratic at best, with wannabe Ian lyrics, and some rather poor vocals on their best day (although I do like some of the vocals that came off singles around this era). In terms of melody and musicianship, I think the band as a whole played at its tightest and best from about '83-'89, everyone improved from Movement forward in my view, particularly Gillian, who apparently based on some things I've read and heard became far more comfortable helping in the writing later in the bands career and certainly not here. I think they wrote far more attractive melodies later in their careers as well.

I can probably see why some like it, in a way, it's the same way, given the right mood, Procession can be a really, really attractive song to listen too, and if not in the mood, a really great song that doesnt suit you. Movement captures alienation, and a sense of being "lost" more effectively than just about any New Order record. If that's what you're looking for, then it works for you. An interesting question might be, amongst the Movement fans and haters/dislikers, how many among the former prefer joy division, or rate them nearly equal, and how many prefer new order or rate them nearly equal. I'd imagine Movement fans are a bit more into the Joy Division sound, since Movement is in my view, closer to Joy Division, than New Order, beyond the prodigious use of synths. However I could be full of crap too. Who knows?

It's just when it comes to New Order, I think PCL, Low-Life, the singles that filled in the period from Brotherhood through Technique, and of course Technique really are the penultimate. The most assured, relaxed Barney vocals, interesting if erratic lyrics, wonderful tunes with beautiful or kick arse melodies depending on the song. Just the penultimate. Movement sounded like an album full of unrealized potential. Hints of the bands judgement, and Barney's definitive judgement seem to agree.

responding to Steven's post, I do appreciate Joy Division, however I prefer New Order...I do listen to Unknown Pleasures and Closer a decent amount, and I love the song A Means to An End (The song right after Colony, which also kicks ass), but I always preferred Barney over Ian as a vocalist (though not necessarily lyricist- though I have grown to love Barney's abstract lyrical style). On Movement, I think vocally there is still a distinguishable difference, and Barney sounds more boyish and less like Jim Morrison. As far as the whole sounding like Joy Division thing, here is my thoery.....They recorded Closer a year ago, and tons of other songs afterwards as Joy Division. After Ian died, the band didn't immediately change their musical tastes overnight. The music changed as time went on, but this was an album they were putting out literally months after ian died. They were responsible for 3/4ths of the Joy Division sound, so making Movement sound like it did came naturally to them, as it would for any other band putting out a follow up to a prior album. For this reason, I don't fault them for still sounding like Joy Division. It's very hard to drastically change immediately. I think the album serves as a bit of closure to the Joy Division era, and nothing we hear after it resembles this sound in the least. Like Technique, this record serves as caputing a moment in time....only this "time" was a very depressing one, and one of instablilty and uncertainty for the band. I think Movement captures the post Ian vibe wonderfully, and while it is not their best album, it is a very very good one.

J

For me, I loved Movement the day I heard it. It was my favorite album at one time (which is now more my 3rd) and it was what I call my "writing" album. I could put a pot on, get sat at my typewriter, and pluck away for a few hours with it on auto-repeat. I had the album before the CD of it, and I (as usual) prefer the grittier sound the age has absorbed onto it.

Production wasn't agreeable to me until I paused and thought of the context in which the album was written, the timeframe it covered, the urgency it represented. It (the production) seems to bring out the exact evocation needed during songs like ICB, The Him, Doubts Even Here and the lovely Dreams Never End. Stronger muster could have elevated Senses, Denial, Truth and Chosen Time to even greater places; but I'm still satisfied enough to dance around to them and sing along.

Uh - what happened. Me writing's gone small! To avoid eye strain, this is what I said in response to Stephen :

Good stuff, Stephen. Personally I really like the lyrics and singing. He's not confident yet, but that fits well with the overall tone. You're right about the mood of alienation. As for melody and musicianship - well, I reckon NO were at their peak as live musicians in around 1981/2. They still had that brute power from the Joy Division days, but were experimenting with different synth textures, drum machines, even different lead singers! That spirit of experimentation shines thru on the album. I guess it depends what you're most comfortable with - I tend to enjoy more difficult, flawed albums more than those where everything is too perfect. Technique is a fantastic record, but overall less interesting than Movement, for me. 25 years on, Movement still makes me say "how the hell did they get that sound?' or notice detials in the mix that I haven't noticed before. I think that's the mark of a great record.

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote: As far as the whole sounding like Joy Division thing, here is my thoery.....They recorded Closer a year ago, and tons of other songs afterwards as Joy Division.

Must have missed these tons of songs then - given that there was only Ceremony and In A Lonely Place!

Geoff Hamilton wrote:

Shug wrote: First time I've been called a production Nazi

Sorry, but for me personally I would have liked a more 'energetic' production on songs like Truth, Senses and Chosen Time. Maybe it's cos I listened to the early live gigs more than the album itself

You saved me a post Shug!

Read the terms of use of the site before you think about posting something like that here? We're just expressing opinions, nothing more.

hey woah I'm not actually calling you a Nazi... calm down. Its just an expression. Its not meant to be taken literally... cant imagine people taking offence at it

Hannett liked what Ian did the best, and after Ian's suicide he mostly resorted to more experiments with Stephen's drum sounds. (I know this is a simplification, but I'm trying to counter the glorification of Hannett's production-yes it was revolutionary, distinct and made a track mesmerizing at its best, but it could also stifle a tune with excessive tampering of the natural instrumental textures.) I think Hannett declined after JD; early NO had passion even if they were struggling, as clearly evinced on Taras. Movement has its moments, and at one time I gave it regular play, but it sounds like Hannett is trying to drown the band. It's a very claustrophobic record; really quite antithetical in that regard to Unknown Pleasures. For whatever reason, the singles from that era have better production. Maybe the burden of recording a whole album was too taxing for Hannett as well as the group. In any event, I doubt we'll ever hear Dreams Never End again, but it's a great song, as is Senses, Chosen Time, and Denial.

i personally love movement,and as a few in here have said you have to remember that when movement came out things was very different. it WAS light years ahead of it time and pointed the way in which many would follow over the next few years. but in many ways it failed,its been pointed out that many of the tracks lack the energy and rawness of their live counterparts and i would agree, but lets face it hannet did this to nearly every track he laid his hands on through jd to no. just listen to unkown pleasures album and then live recordings of the same tracks and you would be forgiven for thinking it was a different band. hannet put his own stamp on nearly everything he did and as the band was young and still on a learning curve they went along with it. its transpired since though that they wasnt happy with the final sound on much of the stuff they had done with hannet,hooky once complained that hannet would take a track that they thought was a solid tune a turn it into something that they had never imagined. so in many ways he could be considered to have been the fith member of jd. no matter what anyone thinks of movement,as the title suggests it was a movement(away from joy division) and towards the new order we all still love today. for this alone im thankfull to hannet and for all the wonderfull music he produced with the lads.

Never been a fan of Movement - it's too much like New Order trying to sound like Joy Division, and not moving forward, with Barney trying to write lyrics like Ian and (IMO) failing...

Still, it's an album which provokes different emotions from different types of fans, and that's no bad thing (we can't all like the same music, can we)? :)

From a personal point of view, "Dreams Never End" is the only song on Movement I listen to nowadays...

Nick King wrote: Never been a fan of Movement - it's too much like New Order trying to sound like Joy Division...

but they were Joy Division on their previous LP, weren't they ? In my opinion, it sounds like Joy Division without Ian Curtiss more like. They had a new name, but not the music yet.

The communication sequence should have been this :

1. We are Joy Division
2. Order was Joy Division
3. We are New Order.

I know that what I will say is somehow bad.

BUT,

if I had a joint to smoke whilst listening to New Order, this would be Movement.

I think if you all had your way it would be a very boring underproduced, lacklustre rock album.

I much prefer Martin's vision for it - dense and atmospheric.

I never listen to the peel session versions as they're flat and straight, no depth to them. They sound like the demos they were.

I listen to it the same way I listen to JD records: occasionally the entire album (I guess I have to be in a mood for that) (yeah, maybe ), but usually no more than a few songs at a time. Like them a lot, but it's not like PCL, I can listen to that one ten times a day and still not get tired of it. Couldn't (or wouldn't) imagine them sounding any different.

As most people on here know I absolutely love Movement.

I can remember the day I heard it, brought it home from Probe records in Liverpool and put it on. For me it is evolution from JD. They may have been officially a new band as NO but the legacy of all before would have surely clouded the way they wrote things. Without Movement I'm convinced PC&L would not have ever happened. That's where they cut their teeth as a new band with a more electronic sound.

Sure the production coould have been better but that's only a minor point.

honestly i hadn't bothered with movement in years. i had it on lp since about 1987, but only got the cd last year. i put it on every now and a gain, but it just doesn't speak to me.

Peel Sessions flat? I must disagree. "Dreams Never End" has much more of a crescendo than on Movement. "Truth" is more enjoyable on there as well.

I'm sure I read somewhere that MH was rather proud of his work on 'Truth'. He said something about how as long as 'Truth' was on the album he'd be happy.

I am a Movement fan (I came over from the JD days so still have more affinity to the sombre, serious NO than the pop/dance band they became later). I think the production affected the songs in different ways e.g.

Doubts Even Here & The him are way better on the album

Dreams Never End is musically improved but they made a mistake getting Hooky to sing in a lower register - his live vocal takes have more passion

Truth isn't much affected

Senses & Denial really suffer the most - live they are powerful & dynamic but the life is really sucked out of them on record. It was the same with Atrocity exhibition, which in some ways shares a similar 'tribal' drum pattern - Hannett seemed to have a problem capturing the excitement of that style.

ICB is OK but the transition in the drum pattern (the most exciting bit of the song and very clear on the Peel version)is lost in the mix

Chosen Time is just shite, live on or record - never understood why people like this - it just has no interesting features at all.

Jamie Fairlie wrote:

Senses & Denial really suffer the most - live they are powerful & dynamic but the life is really sucked out of them on record. It was the same with Atrocity exhibition, which in some ways shares a similar 'tribal' drum pattern - Hannett seemed to have a problem capturing the excitement of that style.

A really good point. Not a toms man, was he?

oldmonkey wrote:

Jamie Fairlie wrote:

Senses & Denial really suffer the most - live they are powerful & dynamic but the life is really sucked out of them on record. It was the same with Atrocity exhibition, which in some ways shares a similar 'tribal' drum pattern - Hannett seemed to have a problem capturing the excitement of that style.

A really good point. Not a toms man, was he?

It's interesting to note how much Steve's own style changed from Unknown Pleasures through PCL. He basically stopped playing the ride cymbal on Closer, dominated the toms on Movement, and then made the hi-hat and snare syncopation sound totally fresh again from PCL onwards.

Like most of you, I have been listening to Joy Division today.

While Heart and Sould was starting to play, an idea came in mind. (Let's get back to the subject, Movement). A lot of people dislike Movement meaning that it is too much post-Joy Division. But can we think that, in its way, Heart and Soul sounds more pre-New Order than Joy Division ? Did any of you never feel something like that ?

Yes, I always thought Heart & Soul was quite NO sounding. Even Ian's voice is lighter than normal. The distance in style between Closer & Movement is not that big.

My biggest problem with this album is the poor audio quality of the vocals. Whether it's intentional or not, it bothers me. I have a lot of difficulty understanding the lyrics.
This is more of a transition album. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it doesn't have any of the "New Ordery" sound that I love.

Jiphy wrote: Like most of you, I have been listening to Joy Division today.

While Heart and Sould was starting to play, an idea came in mind. (Let's get back to the subject, Movement). A lot of people dislike Movement meaning that it is too much post-Joy Division. But can we think that, in its way, Heart and Soul sounds more pre-New Order than Joy Division ? Did any of you never feel something like that ?

Wow... never thought about it like that before... But very true... In the same way that I can never quite accept the fact that Ceremony was a JD song - even with the live version on Still... That is so a NO song... IALP on the other hand is 100% JD to my mind... Funny how these things work...

SHEDi xxx

Hmmm, I like that idea, that Heart And Soul was very much the way forward. I cannot ever think of Ceremony as a JD song, it was an unfinished idea when Ian died, and they changed the song structure and the lyrics to turn it into the masterpiece we all know and love. In A Lonely Place was, as it turns out, complete (though we can only speculate about the second half of the song), but I also can only think of that as a NO song.

I have often wondered whether Dreams Never End, Truth, Homage, Mesh and Cries And Whispers were already at the ideas stage when Ian died, maybe we'll find out one day.

oldmonkey wrote:

I have often wondered whether Dreams Never End, Truth, Homage, Mesh and Cries And Whispers were already at the ideas stage when Ian died, maybe we'll find out one day.

Interesting thought - Homage had an incredibly short shelf-life if not... Would have liked to have seen that one go a little further - always thought of it as a cousin to Mesh and C&W, two tracks I've always loved...

SHEDi xxx

SHEDimon wrote:

oldmonkey wrote:

I have often wondered whether Dreams Never End, Truth, Homage, Mesh and Cries And Whispers were already at the ideas stage when Ian died, maybe we'll find out one day.

Interesting thought - Homage had an incredibly short shelf-life if not... Would have liked to have seen that one go a little further - always thought of it as a cousin to Mesh and C&W, two tracks I've always loved...

SHEDi xxx

I remember reading in the Heart and Soul booklet that Ian would spot the riffs-this is what Hooky said. Bernard attested to being the primary arranger of the tunes. If you take these two items into consideration, coupled with the fact that, unless someone here can prove me wrong, the band did not start using rehearsal tapes regularly until 'Ceremony' and 'In A Lonely Place', the band realized it would be wise to sketch out their musical ideas since their creativity was in ascenscion during the Closer sessions. I don't think other early NO faves came about in Ian's last days, but I think the impetus to preserve ideas was in place. After Ian died, who knows if Barney, Hooky, and Steve went through a rehearsal tape sans Ian to find templates for new songs. They would, after all, have to become their own 'riff-spotters', and this probably explains why Bernard assumed the group's direction early on.

You have to remember, Barney, Hooky, and Steve were hugely creative from 1979-1981. Lately people here have been debating peak creative periods and arguing over Movement. They are responsible for Closer, the early singles as NO, and the songs on Movement, which almost all were killer outside of Hannett's studio. Very little of the material written during this time frame could be considered weak. Rather, some songs didn't mature beyond sketches due to a self-consciousness about what New Order would mean to the group and to its audience with the absence of Ian still quite disconcerting.

Found the uncut mag I was talking about where the band members provided blurbs about the different albums. On Movement they said:

Gillian: "Everybody had a lot of ideas."

Stephen: "There was a bit of an atmosphere. We were just finding our feet again. Some of the songs are not quite there."

Peter: "I think they're all really good songs. A very good album."

Barney: "It was kind of nervous writing, really. I hate those songs. We recorded them. I played the album once, and I don't think I ever played it again. In fact, I don't own a copy."

I thought it was crummy when I first heard it and still do. I tend to be a bit flexible in most of my opinions but on this album I've never been all that flexible. There are bits I find interesting, even a pleasure to listen to if I'm really in an alienated, grumpy mood, but I've never thought it came remotely close to PCL, Low-life, or Technique, and I'd also place every other album save Republic far ahead of it. Only Republic is at it's low ebb in my view. I wonder what it might have sounded like if it had another producer, like New Order themselves (not Hague), but all in all I think production was just one of many problems the album had, as Brotherhood also had poor production but I still greatly prefer it. In the end, I just don't think many of the songs were that great, many were interesting, but not really a pleasure to listen to in any way to me.

If you look at the post JD/early NO timeline, it's likely that most of those early songs existed as ideas. Ian died on May 18th, NO recorded Haystack with Kevin Hewick in June and then the Western Works demos in July. Presuming they did nothing in May (from shock, etc), it's reasonable to assume that the Hewick recoding was the first time they played together post-JD. This doesn't leave much time to come up with Truth, DNE & Homage from scratch before the WW date.

when you think about it, even if they didn't do much in May, they could easily have come up with a few songs in rehearsals in the four weeks of June and maybe a couple of weeks in July before hitting the studio in Sheffield. The exact date of that session is unclear still but could have been mid month.

This would give them a possible six weeks for solid writing/rehearsals (excluding a few days for the Kevin Hewick session). Ample time for a band with a new sense of urgency to write six or so songs.

I concur, but you never know until they say so whether or not any of the very early NO material were sketches floating about in April '80...wasn't Ian in hospital or just absent for a couple of weeks? I'd imagine the other three were trying to keep up a bit of momentum in rehearsals...

don't forget they were preparing a single and an album release, filming the video for the single and getting a set ready for an American tour. To be honest I don't think new songs would be a priority at that point, but they certainly would be after May 18th once the decision to carry on was made.

Yes, but they were still writing right before Closer was recorded, and they continued to do so afterwards with Ceremony and In A Lonely Place. I think the creative activity was marvellous, really, and that's part of why they kept going after Ian died. If Ian had been composing much of the music, it would have been a different story, but as it was, the group had enough confidence, talent, and sheer conviction to plough on. I mean, they barely took a break. There was the mourning period and then it was, "Alright lads, let's get on with our lot". For me it is an enchanting aspect of New Order. At their very worst the new beginning was described as 'awkward'. I think the hope for the group was quite sincere, and they proved themselves within an impressively short time frame of being more than capable of still producing fantastic music.