Why all the apathy for Movement?

I think it's a solid album. It's different, in that it's moreso rock, and more raw than the polished glossy sheen of latter day New Order, but it still has some great stuff. I know he's singing like Ian. I know it's Joy Division esque. To me Movement almost sounds like them taking Joy Division's classic sound and streamlining it a bit for a wider audience. More synths and a bit poppier than traditional JD, but still rooted in the same aestetic. But how can you go wrong with Dream Never End, Truth, The Him, ICB! (one of New Order's most hard rockin songs ever!, and Denial. The song with Peter Hook singing is kind of weak, but for the most part I think it's a good album. Maybe it's no coincidence that I also really like Brotherhood and Get Ready, two of New Order's more "rock oriented" albums.

J

Two reasons, I suppose: the production is iffy, muddy and muddled and the other tracks from 81-82 were/are so strong... The first Peel Session showed just how good the tracks were...

SHEDi xxx

I think the apathy is for the production - it certainly isnt for the songs. Movement is the one album of theirs I listen to more than any other but its the most frustrating too because it could be so much better. I can say the same for PCL too.

i think it's a boring album; the only song that stands out is DNE. considering their other output from the era (as mentioned earlier)--ceremony, EGG, hurt, temptation--movement just falls flat and is easily forgotten.

just listen to factus8 an think of what could have been if the production had been different.

That's the album I need to get for my NO collection. I have all other albums.

[magenta]shedmonite61[/magenta] wrote: That's the album I need to get for my NO collection. I have all other albums.

dont believe the Hype, its a good record, its different though

get it!

I love Movement. My favorite song is on here (Doubts Even Here). Every single track is a classic in my mind, and surprisingly, the one that gets all the glory, Dreams Never End, is my least favorite on the album. This album is amazing. But don't take my word for it. hahaha Anyways...

Apart from Dreams Never End and ICB it is a rather bad album.
You can always listen to an album over and over again and start liking it. - As seems to be with lots of people praising the album. Not a good album.

Ripper opening track.

The life is sucked out of most of the drums though. But I wouldnt write it off, it has some great tracks, no question.

I don't quite understand this apathy towards 'Movement' either.. I first heared this album when i was 16 years old..I'd found a box of old Vynil records laying around in an old shed..full of early 80's records.. the only new order album i owned was technique so this perked my interest... when i put it on i could instantly hear connections to Nine Inch Nails and ive been in love with this LP ever since!! its a great listen during roud trips and sex

When this LP first came out didn't any of you even consider that it may be a little ahead of it's time style wise?

I love Movement! True, I can sort of see why it might not be up everyone's alley--it's missing a little something that JD had and that NO would have a little later on. It's interesting as the link between JD and full-fledged NO, though.

My favourites are "Truth," "Chosen Time," "DEH," and "DNE." The whole album is more amorphous than what preceded or followed it, but I love the atmosphere it creates.

On a side note, that is Gillian doing the talking during "Doubts Even Here," right?

yep it is Gillian speaking. DNE and DEH are two great songs. i do feel however, that the Peel Sessions bettered the album versions of the tunes, and songs like Chosen Time and ICB sometimes sound better live (on the few bottlegs ive heard)

I love Movement. My favorite song is on here (Doubts Even Here). Every single track is a classic in my mind, and surprisingly, the one that gets all the glory, Dreams Never End, is my least favorite on the album. This album is amazing. But don't take my word for it.

I totaly agree, CHOSEN TIME is awesome, the album is the best they have ever made. Check out SENSES and THE HIM

Well, personally, I don't really like the production, and since I didn't like their output as JD that much (I know it's heresy), I don't like how it's halfway between their later stuff and the JD stuff. Plus, it makes me feel bad for the band because of what they were going through at the time so it also becomes an unnecessary downer...

It's just not very good in my view. There are certainly songs that could have been great on it (the first and 2nd, the last 2 and Chosen Time had the most potential to me), but the production had similar problems as brotherhood, very muddy, very, very dull and flat in tone. Brotherhood managed to overcome that to a greater degree because they were just writing better tunes at that point (Weirdo, As it is when it was, BLT, All Day Long all were classics hurt by the production qualities but still clearly great songs).

For me, the lyrics are just very stilted, the music is mediocre and erratic, and the production is ghastly. However the songs are very interesting in the soundscapes they provide, the atmosphere, and you get the feeling it could have been better. I think it's telling that the band never went on very long playing material off of it, and most of the band didn't like it much either. You can't really say that about most of the other albums and more often than not I tend to trust their judgement (I think the albums they liked least were Movement, and Republic, which mirror my unhappiness quite well).

Polaroid Kiss wrote: When this LP first came out didn't any of you even consider that it may be a little ahead of it's time style wise?

Funny you should say that, I do think it sounds better now than it did back then. The dull production is a bit off-putting, but for me, at the time, I wanted this to be more upbeat, less morose, more like EGG & Ceremony anyway. Theres still plenty to like about this album & i listen to it a lot more now than I used to

I can't speak to it being ahead of it's time since I listened to it for the first time a full nine years after it came out. however it never struck me as ahead of its time. BLT, Perfect Kiss etc appeared ahead of their time, as they failed to chart at all from memory, but in the case of the former became an absolute dance anthem in clubs all over my country, and in the case of the latter was a work of utter genius which remains completely unknown outside of among fans of New Order. Movement didn't spawn anything noticeable that I ever noticed beyond perhaps helping urge along the transition towards songs like Temptation, Hurt, 5 8 6 and the like which would inform later New Order breakthroughs.

The revisionism with the album has always puzzled me. I'm baffled as to why some consider it so impressive or a favorite, it is nowhere near as accomplished in my view as PCL, Low-Life, or Technique, and I'd take their post 40 year old records over it as well. Their later albums simply had much better everything, better music, melodies, vocals, lyrics (well, not always), better vocals, better production, it was really one of the two low points for the band (the other being the meat of the Republic album, which interestingly often appears to be a fav album of Movement fans I've come across).

So, what's so wrong about the production of Movement??? I think Hannett did a wonderful job here, and created a real gloomy and menacing atmosphere, just as those songs are meant to be. If you appreciate that kind of feelings it's just a perfect album...

"It's just something I know, the answer's not there It comes and it goes and it frightens me"

Ruined in a day wrote: So, what's so wrong about the production of Movement??? I think Hannett did a wonderful job here, and created a real gloomy and menacing atmosphere, just as those songs are meant to be. If you appreciate that kind of feelings it's just a perfect album...

"It's just something I know, the answer's not there It comes and it goes and it frightens me"

I'm no musician or technical fundi but to me the atmosphere Hannett created detracts from the energy of the music and actually muffles it. This is most evident on Chosen Time, the end of Senses, Denial and even Dreams Never End. These songs were very powerful live. The Him they often messed up when they played it and Doubts Even Here only really featured up to early 1981, so the album versions sound good to me. The rest have had a shroud thrown upon them. Bernard probably hated it for the morose sound to the vocals. Whether you blame Hannett for that is debatable.

If you consider PCL, its the same for The Village, We All Stand - this was quite an upbeat song live - and Ultraviolence, even Age of Consent to a degree. Just remember how disappointed I was back then after the first couple of plays of both of these albums...

The production on Movement is absolutely fantastic - probably Hannett's best. There's no point in viewing the songs as somehow 'separate' from the production and thinking they would sound 'better' some other way. You have to take it as it is. Often critics of Movement seem to wish that it sounded somehow more conventional, with the uptempo tracks more 'rocking' etc etc. But the genius of the work lies in its oddness - instruments in strange places in the mix, drums as lead instrument, treated guitar and keyboard textures, washes of noise... in fact it's very Can-like (or Pere Ubu-like) in the way that the instruments are uncoupled from their normal roles at times. But it's the production, rather than sheer musicianship, that achieves this, as Hannet fucks around with everything's natural place in the mix. Also bear in mind that post-punk c.1981 everyone was trying to find something new, or at least a new way to present something old. That was the spirit of the times and there was some pretty radical music being made in the spirit of severing the umbilical cord that led back to trad-rock. (Think Scritti Politti, Raincoats, Josef K, Pop Group). On those terms Movement is up there with the absolute best.

hadnt realised there were quite so many production Nazis on this forum.... take it you guys dont like any velvet underground, fall or jesus and mary chain records?

Stephen Smith wrote: Their later albums simply had much better everything, better music, melodies, vocals, lyrics (well, not always), better vocals, better production, it was really one of the two low points for the band (the other being the meat of the Republic album, which interestingly often appears to be a fav album of Movement fans I've come across).

How are they 'better'? You state this as if it were an undeniable truth.

I think Republic was a low-point though - the first album which didn't push ahead of its contemporaries and create some new territory. Still an interesting listen though - and I do concede that I may be missing something.

You cannot properly review Movement out of context. You can't listen to it after hearing Blue Monday or Temptation or PCL or Technique or whatever later songs got you into New Order. None of these songs existed in 1981 - all that we had to go on was JD and Ceremony/Procession. Given this sequence, Movement made perfect sense as a post-punk album - think Metal Box by PIL as a good comparison. Yes it's gloomy, yes it's claustrophoic, yes it's unconventional - it's meant to be those things.

People who say it's not as good as, say, Technqique or Sirens are totally missing the point - it wasn't made for people who like those kind of songs, the intended audience was entirely different.

I was disappointed by Movement when it came out - but only because it wasn't as good as Closer, not because it didn't have pop songs on it with 'proper' singing and melodies and choruses - if you wanted that shit then go and listen to feckin' Duran Duran! New order were not supposed to be the The Pet Shop Boys, they were carrying the JD torch and in that context, Movement makes perfect sense.

DC wrote: The production on Movement is absolutely fantastic - probably Hannett's best. There's no point in viewing the songs as somehow 'separate' from the production and thinking they would sound 'better' some other way. You have to take it as it is. Often critics of Movement seem to wish that it sounded somehow more conventional, with the uptempo tracks more 'rocking' etc etc. But the genius of the work lies in its oddness - instruments in strange places in the mix, drums as lead instrument, treated guitar and keyboard textures, washes of noise... in fact it's very Can-like (or Pere Ubu-like) in the way that the instruments are uncoupled from their normal roles at times. But it's the production, rather than sheer musicianship, that achieves this, as Hannet fucks around with everything's natural place in the mix. Also bear in mind that post-punk c.1981 everyone was trying to find something new, or at least a new way to present something old. That was the spirit of the times and there was some pretty radical music being made in the spirit of severing the umbilical cord that led back to trad-rock. (Think Scritti Politti, Raincoats, Josef K, Pop Group). On those terms Movement is up there with the absolute best.

Maybe it was Hannett's "best", but this was New Order's music and they were pretty unhappy with the end product. Bernard in The Face: "We always know how we want to sound. The way we write a song is usually to start off by improvising in the rehearsal room. Then we take it out live. Sometimes you haven't got any lyrics , so you just make up some garbage. Then you listen to live tapes, write some more words, and go back and rehearse some more. By the time we record it, we pretty well know how it should be. I absolutely hated Movement. I've hated it since I first heard it. Never played it since. I was so angry with Movement, having to put out a record I didnt like."

I'll take the songs how I choose to, thanks! I'm not trying to write an NME review here, just expressing why I and quite a few others were disappointed when the record came out. New Order were certainly not trying to present something old in a new way and Movement was more about seeing if they still had the means to carry on. I dont think severing the umbilical cord with trad-rock was at the forefront of any of their minds back then.