Why all the apathy for Movement?

My biggest problem with this album is the poor audio quality of the vocals. Whether it's intentional or not, it bothers me. I have a lot of difficulty understanding the lyrics.
This is more of a transition album. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it doesn't have any of the "New Ordery" sound that I love.

Jiphy wrote: Like most of you, I have been listening to Joy Division today.

While Heart and Sould was starting to play, an idea came in mind. (Let's get back to the subject, Movement). A lot of people dislike Movement meaning that it is too much post-Joy Division. But can we think that, in its way, Heart and Soul sounds more pre-New Order than Joy Division ? Did any of you never feel something like that ?

Wow... never thought about it like that before... But very true... In the same way that I can never quite accept the fact that Ceremony was a JD song - even with the live version on Still... That is so a NO song... IALP on the other hand is 100% JD to my mind... Funny how these things work...

SHEDi xxx

Hmmm, I like that idea, that Heart And Soul was very much the way forward. I cannot ever think of Ceremony as a JD song, it was an unfinished idea when Ian died, and they changed the song structure and the lyrics to turn it into the masterpiece we all know and love. In A Lonely Place was, as it turns out, complete (though we can only speculate about the second half of the song), but I also can only think of that as a NO song.

I have often wondered whether Dreams Never End, Truth, Homage, Mesh and Cries And Whispers were already at the ideas stage when Ian died, maybe we'll find out one day.

oldmonkey wrote:

I have often wondered whether Dreams Never End, Truth, Homage, Mesh and Cries And Whispers were already at the ideas stage when Ian died, maybe we'll find out one day.

Interesting thought - Homage had an incredibly short shelf-life if not... Would have liked to have seen that one go a little further - always thought of it as a cousin to Mesh and C&W, two tracks I've always loved...

SHEDi xxx

SHEDimon wrote:

oldmonkey wrote:

I have often wondered whether Dreams Never End, Truth, Homage, Mesh and Cries And Whispers were already at the ideas stage when Ian died, maybe we'll find out one day.

Interesting thought - Homage had an incredibly short shelf-life if not... Would have liked to have seen that one go a little further - always thought of it as a cousin to Mesh and C&W, two tracks I've always loved...

SHEDi xxx

I remember reading in the Heart and Soul booklet that Ian would spot the riffs-this is what Hooky said. Bernard attested to being the primary arranger of the tunes. If you take these two items into consideration, coupled with the fact that, unless someone here can prove me wrong, the band did not start using rehearsal tapes regularly until 'Ceremony' and 'In A Lonely Place', the band realized it would be wise to sketch out their musical ideas since their creativity was in ascenscion during the Closer sessions. I don't think other early NO faves came about in Ian's last days, but I think the impetus to preserve ideas was in place. After Ian died, who knows if Barney, Hooky, and Steve went through a rehearsal tape sans Ian to find templates for new songs. They would, after all, have to become their own 'riff-spotters', and this probably explains why Bernard assumed the group's direction early on.

You have to remember, Barney, Hooky, and Steve were hugely creative from 1979-1981. Lately people here have been debating peak creative periods and arguing over Movement. They are responsible for Closer, the early singles as NO, and the songs on Movement, which almost all were killer outside of Hannett's studio. Very little of the material written during this time frame could be considered weak. Rather, some songs didn't mature beyond sketches due to a self-consciousness about what New Order would mean to the group and to its audience with the absence of Ian still quite disconcerting.

Found the uncut mag I was talking about where the band members provided blurbs about the different albums. On Movement they said:

Gillian: "Everybody had a lot of ideas."

Stephen: "There was a bit of an atmosphere. We were just finding our feet again. Some of the songs are not quite there."

Peter: "I think they're all really good songs. A very good album."

Barney: "It was kind of nervous writing, really. I hate those songs. We recorded them. I played the album once, and I don't think I ever played it again. In fact, I don't own a copy."

I thought it was crummy when I first heard it and still do. I tend to be a bit flexible in most of my opinions but on this album I've never been all that flexible. There are bits I find interesting, even a pleasure to listen to if I'm really in an alienated, grumpy mood, but I've never thought it came remotely close to PCL, Low-life, or Technique, and I'd also place every other album save Republic far ahead of it. Only Republic is at it's low ebb in my view. I wonder what it might have sounded like if it had another producer, like New Order themselves (not Hague), but all in all I think production was just one of many problems the album had, as Brotherhood also had poor production but I still greatly prefer it. In the end, I just don't think many of the songs were that great, many were interesting, but not really a pleasure to listen to in any way to me.

If you look at the post JD/early NO timeline, it's likely that most of those early songs existed as ideas. Ian died on May 18th, NO recorded Haystack with Kevin Hewick in June and then the Western Works demos in July. Presuming they did nothing in May (from shock, etc), it's reasonable to assume that the Hewick recoding was the first time they played together post-JD. This doesn't leave much time to come up with Truth, DNE & Homage from scratch before the WW date.

when you think about it, even if they didn't do much in May, they could easily have come up with a few songs in rehearsals in the four weeks of June and maybe a couple of weeks in July before hitting the studio in Sheffield. The exact date of that session is unclear still but could have been mid month.

This would give them a possible six weeks for solid writing/rehearsals (excluding a few days for the Kevin Hewick session). Ample time for a band with a new sense of urgency to write six or so songs.

I concur, but you never know until they say so whether or not any of the very early NO material were sketches floating about in April '80...wasn't Ian in hospital or just absent for a couple of weeks? I'd imagine the other three were trying to keep up a bit of momentum in rehearsals...

don't forget they were preparing a single and an album release, filming the video for the single and getting a set ready for an American tour. To be honest I don't think new songs would be a priority at that point, but they certainly would be after May 18th once the decision to carry on was made.

Yes, but they were still writing right before Closer was recorded, and they continued to do so afterwards with Ceremony and In A Lonely Place. I think the creative activity was marvellous, really, and that's part of why they kept going after Ian died. If Ian had been composing much of the music, it would have been a different story, but as it was, the group had enough confidence, talent, and sheer conviction to plough on. I mean, they barely took a break. There was the mourning period and then it was, "Alright lads, let's get on with our lot". For me it is an enchanting aspect of New Order. At their very worst the new beginning was described as 'awkward'. I think the hope for the group was quite sincere, and they proved themselves within an impressively short time frame of being more than capable of still producing fantastic music.