Why all the apathy for Movement?

Shug wrote: First time I've been called a production Nazi

Sorry, but for me personally I would have liked a more 'energetic' production on songs like Truth, Senses and Chosen Time. Maybe it's cos I listened to the early live gigs more than the album itself

You saved me a post Shug!

Read the terms of use of the site before you think about posting something like that here? We're just expressing opinions, nothing more.

Geoff Hamilton wrote:

DC wrote: The production on Movement is absolutely fantastic - probably Hannett's best. There's no point in viewing the songs as somehow 'separate' from the production and thinking they would sound 'better' some other way. You have to take it as it is. Often critics of Movement seem to wish that it sounded somehow more conventional, with the uptempo tracks more 'rocking' etc etc. But the genius of the work lies in its oddness - instruments in strange places in the mix, drums as lead instrument, treated guitar and keyboard textures, washes of noise... in fact it's very Can-like (or Pere Ubu-like) in the way that the instruments are uncoupled from their normal roles at times. But it's the production, rather than sheer musicianship, that achieves this, as Hannet fucks around with everything's natural place in the mix. Also bear in mind that post-punk c.1981 everyone was trying to find something new, or at least a new way to present something old. That was the spirit of the times and there was some pretty radical music being made in the spirit of severing the umbilical cord that led back to trad-rock. (Think Scritti Politti, Raincoats, Josef K, Pop Group). On those terms Movement is up there with the absolute best.

Maybe it was Hannett's "best", but this was New Order's music and they were pretty unhappy with the end product. Bernard in The Face: "We always know how we want to sound. The way we write a song is usually to start off by improvising in the rehearsal room. Then we take it out live. Sometimes you haven't got any lyrics , so you just make up some garbage. Then you listen to live tapes, write some more words, and go back and rehearse some more. By the time we record it, we pretty well know how it should be. I absolutely hated Movement. I've hated it since I first heard it. Never played it since. I was so angry with Movement, having to put out a record I didnt like."

I'll take the songs how I choose to, thanks! I'm not trying to write an NME review here, just expressing why I and quite a few others were disappointed when the record came out. New Order were certainly not trying to present something old in a new way and Movement was more about seeing if they still had the means to carry on. I dont think severing the umbilical cord with trad-rock was at the forefront of any of their minds back then.

No, but it the recd was made in that context, even if Barney would have been happier sounding like the Stooges.

I'll take it how I choose to, too. I loved it when it came out and I love it today.

DC wrote: even if Barney would have been happier sounding like the Stooges.

25 years later they reached this goal with Working Overtime. Too late.

I am happy Hannett produced Movement like HE wanted it. Hannett's a genius. Full stop.

I look at MOvement sort of as a similar album to Genesis "A Trick Of the Tail". People who loved the Peter Gabriel era loved that album, as it was the first after Gabriel left and Phil Collins sounded just like him and the lyrics were Gabrielesque. However, Genesis fans who prefer the poppier Phil Collins stuff do not care as much for that record, and prefer something like Abacab or Invisible Touch. Just a comparison.

J

Movement does seem inferior compared to Closer and Power, Corruption, and Lies, which came before and after. lots of good ideas on Movement thou but the production seems to bury them sometimes, especially the rock elements... listen to how distant "Denial" seems, or "Dreams Never End"...

Hannent must have been really strung out on the smack at the time...

This topic made me listen to Movement start to finish and I was surprised how good it sounded - usually I skip a fair few songs but not this time. For me it's an album I have to be in a certain mood/place to listen to all the way through, and even then I probably don't listen to it for a very long time after that. Not my favourite New order album (not even in the top 3) and the band may hate it but it was probably a necessary step to New Order continuing after Joy Division.

Geoff Hamilton wrote:

DC wrote: The production on Movement is absolutely fantastic - probably Hannett's best. There's no point in viewing the songs as somehow 'separate' from the production and thinking they would sound 'better' some other way. You have to take it as it is. Often critics of Movement seem to wish that it sounded somehow more conventional, with the uptempo tracks more 'rocking' etc etc. But the genius of the work lies in its oddness - instruments in strange places in the mix, drums as lead instrument, treated guitar and keyboard textures, washes of noise... in fact it's very Can-like (or Pere Ubu-like) in the way that the instruments are uncoupled from their normal roles at times. But it's the production, rather than sheer musicianship, that achieves this, as Hannet fucks around with everything's natural place in the mix. Also bear in mind that post-punk c.1981 everyone was trying to find something new, or at least a new way to present something old. That was the spirit of the times and there was some pretty radical music being made in the spirit of severing the umbilical cord that led back to trad-rock. (Think Scritti Politti, Raincoats, Josef K, Pop Group). On those terms Movement is up there with the absolute best.

Maybe it was Hannett's "best", but this was New Order's music and they were pretty unhappy with the end product. Bernard in The Face: "We always know how we want to sound. The way we write a song is usually to start off by improvising in the rehearsal room. Then we take it out live. Sometimes you haven't got any lyrics , so you just make up some garbage. Then you listen to live tapes, write some more words, and go back and rehearse some more. By the time we record it, we pretty well know how it should be. I absolutely hated Movement. I've hated it since I first heard it. Never played it since. I was so angry with Movement, having to put out a record I didnt like."

I'll take the songs how I choose to, thanks! I'm not trying to write an NME review here, just expressing why I and quite a few others were disappointed when the record came out. New Order were certainly not trying to present something old in a new way and Movement was more about seeing if they still had the means to carry on. I dont think severing the umbilical cord with trad-rock was at the forefront of any of their minds back then.

My thoughts exactly. If I recall correctly, only Hooky seemed to like the album amongst the original members and he rarely rips any of their catalogue as a matter of course. I know Barney hated it, and I've never heard Stephen or Gillian refer to it with any degree of warmth. I also think it's telling that really none of the material was played life much beyond '82 or '83 whereas material from every other record they've recorded was a part of their playlists for far, far longer. I trust New Order far more to realize their own musical direction and style than Hannett. No doubt Hannet was a very interesting, and at times Genius producer, but I dont believe anything he ever did for New Order was remotely as good as his work with Joy Division. His style just seemed to mesh much better with their days with Ian, than their days afterwards.

As for how I can say better, its pretty simple, at this time Barney was neither comfortable as a lyricist, nor as a vocalist, so both are erratic at best, with wannabe Ian lyrics, and some rather poor vocals on their best day (although I do like some of the vocals that came off singles around this era). In terms of melody and musicianship, I think the band as a whole played at its tightest and best from about '83-'89, everyone improved from Movement forward in my view, particularly Gillian, who apparently based on some things I've read and heard became far more comfortable helping in the writing later in the bands career and certainly not here. I think they wrote far more attractive melodies later in their careers as well.

I can probably see why some like it, in a way, it's the same way, given the right mood, Procession can be a really, really attractive song to listen too, and if not in the mood, a really great song that doesnt suit you. Movement captures alienation, and a sense of being "lost" more effectively than just about any New Order record. If that's what you're looking for, then it works for you. An interesting question might be, amongst the Movement fans and haters/dislikers, how many among the former prefer joy division, or rate them nearly equal, and how many prefer new order or rate them nearly equal. I'd imagine Movement fans are a bit more into the Joy Division sound, since Movement is in my view, closer to Joy Division, than New Order, beyond the prodigious use of synths. However I could be full of crap too. Who knows?

It's just when it comes to New Order, I think PCL, Low-Life, the singles that filled in the period from Brotherhood through Technique, and of course Technique really are the penultimate. The most assured, relaxed Barney vocals, interesting if erratic lyrics, wonderful tunes with beautiful or kick arse melodies depending on the song. Just the penultimate. Movement sounded like an album full of unrealized potential. Hints of the bands judgement, and Barney's definitive judgement seem to agree.

responding to Steven's post, I do appreciate Joy Division, however I prefer New Order...I do listen to Unknown Pleasures and Closer a decent amount, and I love the song A Means to An End (The song right after Colony, which also kicks ass), but I always preferred Barney over Ian as a vocalist (though not necessarily lyricist- though I have grown to love Barney's abstract lyrical style). On Movement, I think vocally there is still a distinguishable difference, and Barney sounds more boyish and less like Jim Morrison. As far as the whole sounding like Joy Division thing, here is my thoery.....They recorded Closer a year ago, and tons of other songs afterwards as Joy Division. After Ian died, the band didn't immediately change their musical tastes overnight. The music changed as time went on, but this was an album they were putting out literally months after ian died. They were responsible for 3/4ths of the Joy Division sound, so making Movement sound like it did came naturally to them, as it would for any other band putting out a follow up to a prior album. For this reason, I don't fault them for still sounding like Joy Division. It's very hard to drastically change immediately. I think the album serves as a bit of closure to the Joy Division era, and nothing we hear after it resembles this sound in the least. Like Technique, this record serves as caputing a moment in time....only this "time" was a very depressing one, and one of instablilty and uncertainty for the band. I think Movement captures the post Ian vibe wonderfully, and while it is not their best album, it is a very very good one.

J

For me, I loved Movement the day I heard it. It was my favorite album at one time (which is now more my 3rd) and it was what I call my "writing" album. I could put a pot on, get sat at my typewriter, and pluck away for a few hours with it on auto-repeat. I had the album before the CD of it, and I (as usual) prefer the grittier sound the age has absorbed onto it.

Production wasn't agreeable to me until I paused and thought of the context in which the album was written, the timeframe it covered, the urgency it represented. It (the production) seems to bring out the exact evocation needed during songs like ICB, The Him, Doubts Even Here and the lovely Dreams Never End. Stronger muster could have elevated Senses, Denial, Truth and Chosen Time to even greater places; but I'm still satisfied enough to dance around to them and sing along.

Uh - what happened. Me writing's gone small! To avoid eye strain, this is what I said in response to Stephen :

Good stuff, Stephen. Personally I really like the lyrics and singing. He's not confident yet, but that fits well with the overall tone. You're right about the mood of alienation. As for melody and musicianship - well, I reckon NO were at their peak as live musicians in around 1981/2. They still had that brute power from the Joy Division days, but were experimenting with different synth textures, drum machines, even different lead singers! That spirit of experimentation shines thru on the album. I guess it depends what you're most comfortable with - I tend to enjoy more difficult, flawed albums more than those where everything is too perfect. Technique is a fantastic record, but overall less interesting than Movement, for me. 25 years on, Movement still makes me say "how the hell did they get that sound?' or notice detials in the mix that I haven't noticed before. I think that's the mark of a great record.

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote: As far as the whole sounding like Joy Division thing, here is my thoery.....They recorded Closer a year ago, and tons of other songs afterwards as Joy Division.

Must have missed these tons of songs then - given that there was only Ceremony and In A Lonely Place!

Geoff Hamilton wrote:

Shug wrote: First time I've been called a production Nazi

Sorry, but for me personally I would have liked a more 'energetic' production on songs like Truth, Senses and Chosen Time. Maybe it's cos I listened to the early live gigs more than the album itself

You saved me a post Shug!

Read the terms of use of the site before you think about posting something like that here? We're just expressing opinions, nothing more.

hey woah I'm not actually calling you a Nazi... calm down. Its just an expression. Its not meant to be taken literally... cant imagine people taking offence at it

Hannett liked what Ian did the best, and after Ian's suicide he mostly resorted to more experiments with Stephen's drum sounds. (I know this is a simplification, but I'm trying to counter the glorification of Hannett's production-yes it was revolutionary, distinct and made a track mesmerizing at its best, but it could also stifle a tune with excessive tampering of the natural instrumental textures.) I think Hannett declined after JD; early NO had passion even if they were struggling, as clearly evinced on Taras. Movement has its moments, and at one time I gave it regular play, but it sounds like Hannett is trying to drown the band. It's a very claustrophobic record; really quite antithetical in that regard to Unknown Pleasures. For whatever reason, the singles from that era have better production. Maybe the burden of recording a whole album was too taxing for Hannett as well as the group. In any event, I doubt we'll ever hear Dreams Never End again, but it's a great song, as is Senses, Chosen Time, and Denial.

i personally love movement,and as a few in here have said you have to remember that when movement came out things was very different. it WAS light years ahead of it time and pointed the way in which many would follow over the next few years. but in many ways it failed,its been pointed out that many of the tracks lack the energy and rawness of their live counterparts and i would agree, but lets face it hannet did this to nearly every track he laid his hands on through jd to no. just listen to unkown pleasures album and then live recordings of the same tracks and you would be forgiven for thinking it was a different band. hannet put his own stamp on nearly everything he did and as the band was young and still on a learning curve they went along with it. its transpired since though that they wasnt happy with the final sound on much of the stuff they had done with hannet,hooky once complained that hannet would take a track that they thought was a solid tune a turn it into something that they had never imagined. so in many ways he could be considered to have been the fith member of jd. no matter what anyone thinks of movement,as the title suggests it was a movement(away from joy division) and towards the new order we all still love today. for this alone im thankfull to hannet and for all the wonderfull music he produced with the lads.

Never been a fan of Movement - it's too much like New Order trying to sound like Joy Division, and not moving forward, with Barney trying to write lyrics like Ian and (IMO) failing...

Still, it's an album which provokes different emotions from different types of fans, and that's no bad thing (we can't all like the same music, can we)? :)

From a personal point of view, "Dreams Never End" is the only song on Movement I listen to nowadays...

Nick King wrote: Never been a fan of Movement - it's too much like New Order trying to sound like Joy Division...

but they were Joy Division on their previous LP, weren't they ? In my opinion, it sounds like Joy Division without Ian Curtiss more like. They had a new name, but not the music yet.

The communication sequence should have been this :

1. We are Joy Division
2. Order was Joy Division
3. We are New Order.

I know that what I will say is somehow bad.

BUT,

if I had a joint to smoke whilst listening to New Order, this would be Movement.

I think if you all had your way it would be a very boring underproduced, lacklustre rock album.

I much prefer Martin's vision for it - dense and atmospheric.

I never listen to the peel session versions as they're flat and straight, no depth to them. They sound like the demos they were.

I listen to it the same way I listen to JD records: occasionally the entire album (I guess I have to be in a mood for that) (yeah, maybe ), but usually no more than a few songs at a time. Like them a lot, but it's not like PCL, I can listen to that one ten times a day and still not get tired of it. Couldn't (or wouldn't) imagine them sounding any different.

As most people on here know I absolutely love Movement.

I can remember the day I heard it, brought it home from Probe records in Liverpool and put it on. For me it is evolution from JD. They may have been officially a new band as NO but the legacy of all before would have surely clouded the way they wrote things. Without Movement I'm convinced PC&L would not have ever happened. That's where they cut their teeth as a new band with a more electronic sound.

Sure the production coould have been better but that's only a minor point.

honestly i hadn't bothered with movement in years. i had it on lp since about 1987, but only got the cd last year. i put it on every now and a gain, but it just doesn't speak to me.

Peel Sessions flat? I must disagree. "Dreams Never End" has much more of a crescendo than on Movement. "Truth" is more enjoyable on there as well.

I'm sure I read somewhere that MH was rather proud of his work on 'Truth'. He said something about how as long as 'Truth' was on the album he'd be happy.

I am a Movement fan (I came over from the JD days so still have more affinity to the sombre, serious NO than the pop/dance band they became later). I think the production affected the songs in different ways e.g.

Doubts Even Here & The him are way better on the album

Dreams Never End is musically improved but they made a mistake getting Hooky to sing in a lower register - his live vocal takes have more passion

Truth isn't much affected

Senses & Denial really suffer the most - live they are powerful & dynamic but the life is really sucked out of them on record. It was the same with Atrocity exhibition, which in some ways shares a similar 'tribal' drum pattern - Hannett seemed to have a problem capturing the excitement of that style.

ICB is OK but the transition in the drum pattern (the most exciting bit of the song and very clear on the Peel version)is lost in the mix

Chosen Time is just shite, live on or record - never understood why people like this - it just has no interesting features at all.

Jamie Fairlie wrote:

Senses & Denial really suffer the most - live they are powerful & dynamic but the life is really sucked out of them on record. It was the same with Atrocity exhibition, which in some ways shares a similar 'tribal' drum pattern - Hannett seemed to have a problem capturing the excitement of that style.

A really good point. Not a toms man, was he?

oldmonkey wrote:

Jamie Fairlie wrote:

Senses & Denial really suffer the most - live they are powerful & dynamic but the life is really sucked out of them on record. It was the same with Atrocity exhibition, which in some ways shares a similar 'tribal' drum pattern - Hannett seemed to have a problem capturing the excitement of that style.

A really good point. Not a toms man, was he?

It's interesting to note how much Steve's own style changed from Unknown Pleasures through PCL. He basically stopped playing the ride cymbal on Closer, dominated the toms on Movement, and then made the hi-hat and snare syncopation sound totally fresh again from PCL onwards.

Like most of you, I have been listening to Joy Division today.

While Heart and Sould was starting to play, an idea came in mind. (Let's get back to the subject, Movement). A lot of people dislike Movement meaning that it is too much post-Joy Division. But can we think that, in its way, Heart and Soul sounds more pre-New Order than Joy Division ? Did any of you never feel something like that ?

Yes, I always thought Heart & Soul was quite NO sounding. Even Ian's voice is lighter than normal. The distance in style between Closer & Movement is not that big.