Did Joy Division invent New Wave as we know it today??

I would say they sure did. Listen to Transmission, Digital, and Isolation in particular, and realize that nobody ever sounded like this before them. Joy Division created Goth music, New Wave, and shaped alternative rock to be as we know it today, with meloncholy. Ian also was one of the first rock singers to purposefully kill himself. No accidental drug overdose or any of that, he killed himself like that was what was meant for him. Maybe the most influential band of all time.

J

thanks for that.

they also invented electronic music.

Errmmm...and yet in a 1979 interview with Richard Skinner, Ian and Steve are asked if they see themselves as "new wave" like Gary Numan. The term "new wave" existed long before Joy Division, especially because it was applied to many punk bands before Joy Division. As for Goth rock, let's not forget The Damned, Bauhaus, and the Banshees all putting out records before Joy Division.

I'm not sure about New Wave...that conjures up to many visions of Flock of Seagulls. I would say that the marriage they did with punk and disco pretty much gave birth to "alternative" music, however.

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote: I would say they sure did. Listen to Transmission, Digital, and Isolation in particular, and realize that nobody ever sounded like this before them. Joy Division created Goth music, New Wave, and shaped alternative rock to be as we know it today, with meloncholy. Ian also was one of the first rock singers to purposefully kill himself. No accidental drug overdose or any of that, he killed himself like that was what was meant for him. Maybe the most influential band of all time.

J

'New wave as we know it today'? I'm guessing that you're American and there might be some differences in what's understood by the term 'new wave' over there and here in the UK. Genre terms are pretty meaningless, but if I had to define it, I'd say 'New wave' (UK definition) was a catch-all term from early 1978 to describe anything vaguely related to, but not as threatening as, punk. Elvis Costello, Ian Dury etc were described as new wave, as were American skinny tie merchants like The Knack, The Cars, Jonathan Richman, who had hits over here. JD obviously don't fit in here, but as I say, most genre descriptions are pretty meaningless and pointless.

'Post-punk' is a better description than new wave for the exploratory, experimental music that came after punk, although no-one really used the term post-punk for a good ten or more years post,'erm....punk. JD clearly fit into this area rather more than the UK 'new wave' pigeonhole.

Did they invent post-punk? No. They invented themselves. Were they the first band to express melancholy, as you put it? Hardly. Ever heard The Doors, The Rolling Stones, The Stooges, MC5, The Who, Patti Smith....and so on? Practically every rock and roll band who ever plucked a guitar had 'melancholy' of some kind as one of their major driving forces. Rock as a form of expression of the outsider, the loner, was around waay before JD. You could say they were just following in the tradition...but HOW they did it was what made them special.

I don't quite like what you're getting at about IC's death...as if there is anything romantic about the rock and roll suicide. It wasn't anything to do with music...he died a confused, ill and isolated man. A tragedy. To say that 'he killed himself like it was meant for him' is crass.

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote: Ian also was one of the first rock singers to purposefully kill himself. No accidental drug overdose or any of that, he killed himself like that was what was meant for him.

J

Many of your posts have indicated that you are a bit of an asshole. Now we know which bit. Unbelievable.

No. What kind of a ridiculous statement is this? Besides, "new wave" is just a stupid name the mass media invented.

But are they a gay band!?!?!

[orange]Retroesque[/orange] wrote: But are they a gay band!?!?!

There should be an emoticon that shakes its head "no" while still smiling. I think that'd be fitting for every truly superfluous question asked in this forum.

"New Wave" was a term Seymour Stein latched onto when he feared signing punk bands was going to sink Sire records. If you look in old issues of Search and Destroy (the San Francisco zine of punk's heyday), there are ridiculous adverts for some crap band and the Dead Boys and the Ramones all labeled as New Wave efforts sired by Sire Records.

Oh yeah, let's not mix up Jonathan Richman with New Wave. The Modern Lovers album was recorded I think '71 or '72 at the latest. It just wasn't released until 1976. Of course Richman went on to make cutesy, kiddie pop, but that's a whole different bag apart from New Wave.

JV wrote: Oh yeah, let's not mix up Jonathan Richman with New Wave. The Modern Lovers album was recorded I think '71 or '72 at the latest. It just wasn't released until 1976. Of course Richman went on to make cutesy, kiddie pop, but that's a whole different bag apart from New Wave.

Yes, the Kim Fowley demos are from 72 and the John Cale ones are from 73. That didn't stop the Roadrunner single from being lumped in with 'New Wave' when it was UK hit in what...77?

JV wrote:

[orange]Retroesque[/orange] wrote: But are they a gay band!?!?!

There should be an emoticon that shakes its head "no" while still smiling. I think that'd be fitting for every truly superfluous question asked in this forum.

Hehe, I tried looking, but couldn't find one on this site.

Yes they did. They also invented the internet. Back when Al Gore was their drummer.

OK, seriously, they of course did not invent new wave but had a huge role in shaping it. Probably as influential to new wave as anyone, but there are many other bands who deserve an equal or near equal claim. Even some one hit wonder crap bands such as M and the Bugles deserve some note here.

One Brain wrote:

My Name Is John Barnes wrote: Welcome to MLANH's stupid freaking question of the day...

what's next? Are New order a gay band?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who get annoyed with his stupid threads. What's the point of starting a thread for every "new" thing one discovers?

I think we should shoot the cunt, personally, but that sort of thing probably isn't allowed. Anyway, I've just come from the land of the sun with 27 tans and 5 bellies, and decided I need a quiet, non-controversial life. And no I didn't get them for nothing.

New Order singlehandedly invented "Gay Wave."

FFS...

In what way is Joy Division even remotely New Wave?

well if you look back you could say they influences the up coming music sence without New Order/Joy division, you wouldnt have artists like Nine Inch Nails which Trent Reznor even said that joy division influences the way he makes music.

there are alot of artist from pop to punk an heavy metal say that.

http://www.edge102.com/home/index.cfm

check this site out for the history of modern rock it has alot to teach you ppl about music an the things you dont know.

CN wrote: well if you look back you could say they influences the up coming music sence without New Order/Joy division, you wouldnt have artists like Nine Inch Nails which Trent Reznor even said that joy division influences the way he makes music.

there are alot of artist from pop to punk an heavy metal say that.

http://www.edge102.com/home/index.cfm

check this site out for the history of modern rock it has alot to teach you ppl about music an the things you dont know.

That may be, but New Wave referes to a very specific genre form the late 70s to early 80s, and Joy Division wasn't a New Wave band.

I'm pretty sure a modern rock radio station's website won't have any great insights about the history of rock music. They're still probably up their own ass over Nirvana.

Everybody knows JD invented music.

Did Joy Division invent New Wave as we know it today?

no.

Have read that Martin Hannent brought studio artistry back to the basic punk anti establishment rock rebellion, which i suppose might be a viewpoint... but then Wire brought artiness to (post)punk before Unknown Pleasures

pumped full of drugs wrote: Did Joy Division invent New Wave as we know it today?

no.

Have read that Martin Hannent brought studio artistry back to the basic punk anti establishment rock rebellion, which i suppose might be a viewpoint... but then Wire brought artiness to (post)punk before Unknown Pleasures

All the best punk records were well produced, with Never Mind the Bollocks being the classic example (and as much as you can debate whether it really needed all those guitar overdubs, I wouldn't take that record any other way). Even the Ramones first record was decently produced. Certainly not like Plastic Surgery Disasters by the Dead Kennedys. Of course you can argue over aesthetics. Iggy Pop remixed Raw Power, I think, to make it sound rawer than records like Nirvana's In Utero. Y'know, 'cause apparently the original Bowie produced version wasn't truly raw enough.

Joy Division did not invent anything neither did New Order they are just two unique bands for their time who both produced great music

electronic music was around before new order for example Kraftwerk

they are just two very different great bands admired by us all and influencing many for example U2 in Joy Divisions case

I don't think you can categorise either band and label them as either Goth or New Wave

JV wrote:

pumped full of drugs wrote: Did Joy Division invent New Wave as we know it today?

no.

Have read that Martin Hannent brought studio artistry back to the basic punk anti establishment rock rebellion, which i suppose might be a viewpoint... but then Wire brought artiness to (post)punk before Unknown Pleasures

All the best punk records were well produced, with Never Mind the Bollocks being the classic example (and as much as you can debate whether it really needed all those guitar overdubs, I wouldn't take that record any other way). Even the Ramones first record was decently produced. Certainly not like Plastic Surgery Disasters by the Dead Kennedys. Of course you can argue over aesthetics. Iggy Pop remixed Raw Power, I think, to make it sound rawer than records like Nirvana's In Utero. Y'know, 'cause apparently the original Bowie produced version wasn't truly raw enough.

Very good points. The Clash's first album could've done with a punchier sound though, although it's not without charm. The Buzzcocks albums sound amazing, courtesy of M. Rushent. I always like the way that the Ramones debut shoved all the guitar in one speaker like the first Beatles stereo recordings.