New Order / The Smiths rivalry

Any of you around in the eighties rememember the intense New Order/Smith rivalry in the 80s?

As Manchester's big two, lots of us liked both bands but at the time, you generally had one who you backed - a bit like the Blur/Oasis thing in the 90s.

I remember there was lots of falling out at the Festival of The Tenth Summer gig at GMEX about who would headline. It was a Factory event so I am sure that is why New Order won the day, but The Smiths played at teatime as a compromise - they didn't want to play just before New Order as that would have been an admission of inferiority.

Prior to that, at the "From Manchester With Love" gig, New Order played first, then The Fall, then The Smiths - again this may have been some sort of compromise.

Can anyone remember this rivalry? Was anyone at either gig above?

Never really saw it as a rivalry. Maybe The Smiths did, maybe some of their fans did, but I don't think New Order gave a toss and I know that I didn't, as a New Order fan who also saw The Smiths play a number of times and bought a few of their records.

We know what Hooky thinks of Morrissey though.....

I remember reading Morrissey had a begrudging respect for JD but thought they were too grey.

The Queen Is Dead is one of my favorite records, but The Smiths fall third after Echo & The Bunnymen and NO as my favorite British groups from the 80s.

i'm sure i read in the recent q magazine manchester special,hooky mentions something about altough he's not a fan the smiths/morrissey are prob the greatest manchester band

or words close to that

Morrissey likes drama and rivalry fits the bill. Whether or not it's really there doesn't matter to him.

In this month's "Uncut" there's a piece with Johnny Marr & Barney quasi-promoting their so-called "Best Of...".

Barney says something nice about Moz, which I assume is tongue-in-cheek given that Morrissey's general take on our Bernard was "that fucking talentless cunting little Salford oik what stole my Johnny".

(The Good Doctor) Martin Fradley wrote: "that fucking talentless cunting little Salford oik what stole my Johnny".

That's gotta be unhygienic

I remember that i was never fussed on The Smiths till after they split up,whic probably explains why i think Strangeways Here We Come is their best album? A lot of my mates that were big Smiths fans never really liked New Order till Technique came along.

Was at From Manc with Love gig..Up in the rafters @ The Royal Court..twas about -15.

Not sure about rivalry..I think New Order just wanted to play and fook off.

Similar to Miners benefit gig @ Sheffield...New Order came on before Billy Bragg and ABC..

For what it's worth I thought The Smiths were OK @ Liverpool...as for ABC...Shoot that poison arrow where the sun don't shine !!!

i don't really recall any rivalry. some of the recent stuff i read does suggest some dislike between The Smiths and the Factory team.

I'm fairly sure that at Sheffield and Liverpool New Order were on first just because their gear needed to be left in place rather than moved about after soundcheck.

Don't read anything into that.

I remember that at the Tenth Summer they couldn't film The Smiths because (no doubt) Mozza objected. The only band on that day that weren't filmed (not that anyone ever got to see the footage anyway!).

I was at the Festival Of The Tenth Summer,I never assumed any rivalry,because to be honest,even to this very day,Manc artists seem to club together...hmm bar Mozzer and Mike Joyce But I did read something recently,might have been a Hooky interview.When Mozzer was interviewed on the Tube Hacienda special,he said JD were overrated,and Rob Gretton stepped in and said"You sing about doing yerself in,Ian had the fcuking guts to do it" to which MOZZER stormed off.Bit of Atmosphere,bit of Atmosphere...

I remember a Morrisey quote, something like:

"I've never understood the appeal of Joy Division, over my head I guess, or possibly under it"

The quote was published again but with New Order in place of JD.

If there was a rivalry,I certainly don't remember it,I just think it's a story that's grown over the years,& certainly given fuel everytime Hooky says he fookin' hates Morrissey.If you actually think about it,Bernard & Johnny Marr have been working together since at least '89,so I think it's just bollox

smiths = mainly a girls band

new order = mainly a boys band.

never saw a rivalry. just both from the 80's.

I don't remember any rivalry at all but then I didn't grow up in Manchester and haven't any inside information. Just heard the music, bought it and read the music papers and argued with school friends over it (tirelessly).

The way I remember the early to mid-80s was most kids were non-indie and a few were indie and the indie holy trinity were New Order, The Smiths and The Cure. You basically loved all three or hated all three. There wasn't really a rivalry maybe because the press couldn't conjure one up. The Smiths were always being interviewed whilst New Order pretty much shunned interviews for years. Incidentally I remember New Order getting a lot of mediocre reviews for singles and albums too which NME/Melody Maker reverted opinions on years later, whilst they thought the sun shone from Mozzer's backside at his every utterance. However I do remember a few digs at each other between New Order and The Cure over nicking each other's songs but it never seemed to get out of hand.

Stones Roses and Happy Mondays always seemed to get along too. There's room for all.

(addendum) Oh no, just remembered Mozzer did slag off Bernard a bit when Marr joined him in Electronic. But that wasn't until end of the eighties.

There certainly was rivally between the bands at the time. There were terrible arguments around the headline slot at The Tenth Summer - that's why The Smiths played so early.

HaciendaThat wrote:

The way I remember the early to mid-80s was most kids were non-indie and a few were indie and the indie holy trinity were New Order, The Smiths and The Cure. You basically loved all three or hated all three.

Not round here.

HaciendaThat wrote:

The way I remember the early to mid-80s was most kids were non-indie and a few were indie and the indie holy trinity were New Order, The Smiths and The Cure. You basically loved all three or hated all three.

You must have grown up in a strange place then, as I have never met an NO fan who was also into The C***. Many of my NO-fan mates liked The Smiths, as did I until I realised what a pretentious cock Morrissey was.

Not at all. The majority of the boys at my school worshipped Queen, Dire Straits and Bruce Springstein. Anything else especially indie was for gays (strange in retrospect). The girls mainly worshipped John Taylor of Duran Duran, although the 2 arty ones liked Japan. So the indie minority clubbed together and all liked the 'holy trinity' to varying ratios/in differing top 3's, etc.

Have you really never ever met absolutely anybody who liked both New Order and The Cure. Even just a little bit of the other one ? Wow, I must have talked to a lot of different people in my youth.

In Manchester you were not allowed to like New Order and The Cure in the 80s. Two completely different scenes.

If you were a real true New Order fan you were allowed to like other Factory bands, experimental electronic stuff like Eno/early Bowie/Electro, House Music when it came out, Kraftwork and that was pretty much it.

Other bands you were not allowed to like were Depeche Mode, U2, Big Country and Simple Minds. You had to sneer at bands like that.

I was never really aware of any rivalry between NO & the Smiths.

Also, someone used the term "Indie".

New Order were never really an "indie" band in the true sense of the word. Granted, nobody Factory was the most independant of independant labels (for a while) but the musical genre "indie", when it arrived mid-eigties, was used to describe jangly guitar bands, like the ones on the NME's infamous C86 tape. People who were "indie" bands, then, in my opinion, were bands like The Wedding Present, The Primitives and James. People who called themselves fans of "indie" music usually dressed in dark colours, baggy jumpers, pointy shoes and had big hair.

New Order fans in the mid eighties were often football casuals or people with a sharper sense of fashion.

Blunderer wrote: In Manchester you were not allowed to like New Order and The Cure in the 80s. Two completely different scenes.

If you were a real true New Order fan you were allowed to like other Factory bands, experimental electronic stuff like Eno/early Bowie/Electro, House Music when it came out, Kraftwork and that was pretty much it.

Other bands you were not allowed to like were Depeche Mode, U2, Big Country and Simple Minds. You had to sneer at bands like that.

Aaaaah, that explains why everybody I've ever met from Crawley hates New Order and The Smiths.

I would agree that they attracted quite different types of fans. Although there are quite a few people on here that say they were into both in the early days - but it tends to be the more gentle types.

Nowadays Morrissey fans seem to be more obsessive than NO (if that's possible), but I think Morrissey commands that with his somewhat aloof, almost god-like persona. NO are more down to earth on and off stage.

whether there was or wasn't a band rivalry, the idea is pretty childish. we all remember the ridiculous blur/oasis rivalry a decade ago. my boyfriend at the time, who was really into oasis, was actually upset with me that i liked blur! i didn't give two shits whether or not he was into oasis. i liked them, as well, anyway. but i didn't go on about his hot chocolate obsession.

Perry boys liked New Order Student/emotional fookers liked The Smiths Musicians liked the Bunnymen.

I liked all three - a right hotch-potch

Blunderer wrote: There certainly was rivally between the bands at the time. There were terrible arguments around the headline slot at The Tenth Summer - that's why The Smiths played so early.

all words in the Record shops was of this strong and bitter home turf rivalry. Owners would talk of the UK 'scene as all Drama. Presumably gotten from press or relations in England. Good music and a good time for the most part mind. if it was under Factory's label.

Real eye opener was seeing guys who listened and lived primarily with NYC Punk, metal, The Clash that sort. Really enjoy the Smiths and New Order while completely dismissing most everything even slightly acid- Club dancey.

As an old git of forty, I always thought (at the time) that they were two completely different bands from the same city. I perceived The Smiths as a sort-of throwback 60s band with twangy guitars and Mozz wailing about whatever whereas I was already smitten by New Order. Electronic always seemed more New Order than The Smiths but they had an original energy too.

I'm afraid I was a complete loner at school (in the early 80s) as I had long been an Ultravox obsessive and then that spread to the Order as well, the latter really getting into its stride as Uxox's once bright light began to fade at the end of 84. I didn't know anyone into the Order so it was a solo passion, the comparitive awkwardness and mystery adding to the allure I suppose. Somehow I was juggling all this with Kraftwerk and The The. Later on it was Detroit techno and the whole thing coalesced together. Strange times, the 80s!

I did like a lot of Smiths songs but i would never EVER have admitted that to one of their fans

I happen to like NO, The Smiths, and The Cure, and how could you guys forget mentioning Depeche Mode in that category! Out of all those, NO is clearly the best, but solid material comes from all of the aforementioned bands. Dont you guys love Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me and Disintegration????? How about Meat Is Murder and the Queen is Dead???? Incredible work.

J

HaciendaThat wrote: Have you really never ever met absolutely anybody who liked both New Order and The Cure. Even just a little bit of the other one ? Wow, I must have talked to a lot of different people in my youth.

Depends on what country you're from. In the UK, New Order is a macho band...

In the US, New Order, The Smiths and The Cure were all part of the same music scene.

Macho band? Liberace effect would be more like it, I think...

For the MILLIONTH TIME

In North America, New Order, The Smiths/Moz, The Cure and Depeche Mode had the same fan base

In England they had different, but overlapping, fanbases. All the bands had their own hardcore.

I went to see New Order in Connecticut in 1989 and was surprised at some of the band t-shirts I saw there - Depeche Mode was one of the common ones.

Not many UK New Order fans followed Depeche Mode.

Tim wrote:

HaciendaThat wrote:

The way I remember the early to mid-80s was most kids were non-indie and a few were indie and the indie holy trinity were New Order, The Smiths and The Cure. You basically loved all three or hated all three.

You must have grown up in a strange place then, as I have never met an NO fan who was also into The C***. Many of my NO-fan mates liked The Smiths, as did I until I realised what a pretentious cock Morrissey was.

I like The Cure Tim,have done since about '85,but since we've never met,you're record for having never met anyone who likes both still stands! Also,in answering Blunderer too & also because I'm a Mancunian in Manchester,I've never bothered too much about what scene a particular band was from or what fad to follow,a good tune is a good tune,something I appreciate more now than then sure,& I also think it depended on what circles you mixed in,I mean the Uni' brigade in Man' in the '80's all seemed terribly arty to me & very 'let's see what's cool this week so we can follow it & isolate everyone else & look oh-so fucking pretentious',but the circle I mixed in liked allsorts,from N.O./J.D.,The Cure,The Fall,Cocteaus,ACR,Chameleons,Smiths,U2,Cabs etc,they were all part of the same to us,it was 'indie' in the sense that it wasn't mainstream.Sure,there were exceptions,you couldn't openly admit to liking anything Goth,life would possibly get very lonely,very quickly.They were too diverse a genre at the time,even given the J.D. link

Ally wrote:

Blunderer wrote: Not many UK New Order fans followed Depeche Mode.

No offence, but how could you possibly know this for sure?

Shouldn't that be "not many UK New Order fans that I met followed Depeche Mode"?

But this thread's been full of generalisations anyway so why stop now. It must've been really dull being a music fan in the 80s having to conform to all these shitey stereotypes eh?

"I can't like that record, it's too uncool to darken my turntable"

Fcuking boring attitude.

Absolutely spot on,well put! & in less words than I took!

Ally wrote:

Blunderer wrote: Not many UK New Order fans followed Depeche Mode.

No offence, but how could you possibly know this for sure?

Shouldn't that be "not many UK New Order fans that I met followed Depeche Mode"?

But this thread's been full of generalisations anyway so why stop now. It must've been really dull being a music fan in the 80s having to conform to all these shitey stereotypes eh?

"I can't like that record, it's too uncool to darken my turntable"

Fcuking boring attitude.

But it kind of was like that a bit, I am not saying it is right, but you did have to be cool and to like the right stuff! Of course it was small minded.

And I am not just judging on New Order fans I met. When you went to a gig back then 70% of the crowd wore band t-shirts. You would see lots of Joy Division and common others would be The Fall, The Smiths and obsurer bands like Monocrome Set. Never many Depeche Mode.

For the record, I liked and went to see lots of bands beside New Order in the 80's, like The Fall, The Smiths, The Wedding Present, James, Happy Mondays, Stone Roses, Paris Angels, Nothside, Bradford...then I was blown away by Acid in the Summer of Love.

Ally wrote:

Judging an entire fanbase's musical tastes over the course of a decade simply by how many t-shirts you saw is faintly ridiculous is it not? Hardly scientific.

Yeah. Just cos I don't wear my "I LOVE CLIFF RICHARDS ME I DO" T-shirt, doesn't mean I'm not a fan

Ally wrote:

Blunderer wrote: For the record, I liked and went to see lots of bands beside New Order in the 80's, like The Fall, The Smiths, The Wedding Present, James, Happy Mondays, Stone Roses, Paris Angels, Nothside

Did you ever see any bands besides New Order in the 80s that weren't from the north or had a Factory connection? I only say this cos looking at the geography of where the bands you listed are from, a familiar pattern starts to emerge:

Manchester, Manchester, Leeds, Manchester, Manchester, Manchester, Manchester and er, Manchester.

There's other cities proper countries outside the north and everything

Of course there are, but that's how it was at the time. And I make no apologies for that because they were the most exciting bands around. In the 90s more or less all the music I liked was from way outside Manchester - Orbital, Leftfield, Pink Floyd, Suede etc. I broadened my horizons from when I was a blinkered teenager.

Anyway, the original point of this post was not rivally between fans but rivally between the bands - The Smiths and New Order. It did exist, as some posters are obviously aware,

Andrew Sayer wrote: Perry boys liked New Order Student/emotional fookers liked The Smiths Musicians liked the Bunnymen.

I liked all three - a right hotch-potch

johnny marr was a perry boy. thought goths liked the Bunny boys and veggie girls with glasses liked the smiths.

fuck, now i'm totally confused.

Ally wrote:

Blunderer wrote: When you went to a gig back then 70% of the crowd wore band t-shirts. You would see lots of Joy Division and common others would be The Fall, The Smiths and obsurer bands like Monocrome Set. Never many Depeche Mode.

Er, I'm guessing they didn't wear DM tshirts because it wasn't a DM gig? Assuming music fans in the 80s could afford more than one t-shirt of course. They'd probably decide to wear a NO/JD tshirt to a NO gig wouldn't they? Speaking personally, if I go to a NO gig I'll wear a NO t-shirt but if I go to a Doves gig I'll wear a Doves t-shirt.

"Well I didn't see many New Order tshirts at a Doves gig so their fans probably aren't into NO at all." = Bollocks.

Judging an entire fanbase's musical tastes over the course of a decade simply by how many t-shirts you saw is faintly ridiculous is it not? Hardly scientific.

Very wrong, actually Ally. In those days it was fashionable to wear other bands t-shirts at gigs as a badge of cool. So my admittedly non-scientific study is in fact a fair guage. As is the fact that I knew and know many New Order fans, was heavily involved in the scene at the time, went to watch lots of other bands, went to the Hacienda etc. And, I stand by what I said, not many New Order fans were Depeche Mode fans. They had different fanbases in the UK. There was some overlap, but not that much.

So, if you disagree with me, what do you base your argument on?

Blunderer wrote:

Ally wrote:

Blunderer wrote: For the record, I liked and went to see lots of bands beside New Order in the 80's, like The Fall, The Smiths, The Wedding Present, James, Happy Mondays, Stone Roses, Paris Angels, Nothside

Did you ever see any bands besides New Order in the 80s that weren't from the north or had a Factory connection? I only say this cos looking at the geography of where the bands you listed are from, a familiar pattern starts to emerge:

Manchester, Manchester, Leeds, Manchester, Manchester, Manchester, Manchester and er, Manchester.

There's other cities proper countries outside the north and everything

Of course there are, but that's how it was at the time. And I make no apologies for that because they were the most exciting bands around. In the 90s more or less all the music I liked was from way outside Manchester - Orbital, Leftfield, Pink Floyd, Suede etc. I broadened my horizons from when I was a blinkered teenager.

Anyway, the original point of this post was not rivally between fans but rivally between the bands - The Smiths and New Order. It did exist, as some posters are obviously aware,

and then along came Cast.

So you admit then, Ally, that not many New Order fans were Depeche Mode fans.

Which is what I said.

Crikey, wish I hadn't mentioned New Order and The Cure in the same sentence, not to mention the word "Indie". It's all sounding like a squabble in the 6th form common room from 1985.

Is it true that the rivalry started when Gillian spilt Mozza's pint ?

Robert Smith never liked Morrissey and The Smiths.... Morrissey never liked electronic music... never heard of them being rivals. Two of the biggest groups of their decade.... Someone talked about 10th Festival Summer gig... I have a bootleg of this and there is Ian McCulloch singing Ceremony wich for several times he said being a song he would like to have composed.... Ian loves NO/JD!

I loved arguing about music in the 6th form common room. it has been like old times for me!

So, in summary, to be a true New Order fan you are only allowed to like other Factory bands. You may just get away with "alternative" bands of the same era as long as you put them way down the list after New Order. Wierd, experimental bands, especially utilising technology and taking drugs, are fine.

But The Cure and Depeche Mode? You should be relieved of your New Order records, banned from dancing to them at 6th Form Discos and banished from all gigs.

I am glad we got that straight.

Marco Dias wrote: Robert Smith never liked Morrissey and The Smiths.... Morrissey never liked electronic music... never heard of them being rivals. Two of the biggest groups of their decade.... Someone talked about 10th Festival Summer gig... I have a bootleg of this and there is Ian McCulloch singing Ceremony wich for several times he said being a song he would like to have composed.... Ian loves NO/JD!

Yes, Ian McCulloch came on with a fag on and looked cool as f**k. I remember it well.

But, still trying to drag the thread back to its original point, New Order and Smiths argued about who would headline.

Killing Joke pissed all over them. Period.

New Order and The Smiths wrote great music in this period. So what if they didn't like each other?

So what if they didn't like each other?

Was it gay tension?

Between Moz and Gillian?

LE Roberts wrote:

So what if they didn't like each other?

Was it gay tension?

Between Moz and Gillian?

Well Hooky did have the leather trousers....

Christopher Owens wrote:

LE Roberts wrote:

So what if they didn't like each other?

Was it gay tension?

Between Moz and Gillian?

Well Hooky did have the leather trousers....

Oooooh, those early Warsaw photos. Moustaches and a leather cap. The signs were there.

I was at the GMEX gig. The night before I stayed at the nearby YMCA. There were loads of Smiths and New Order fans staying there and conversations did bring up the headlining question. My take on it was that the gig was a celebration of '10 years since punk began', and because New Order had been around longer than The Smiths, they would close the show. The Smiths were, at that moment in time, bringing out some great stuff. I think 'The Queen Is Dead' had recently come out, while New Order were going through something of a 'dip in form', IMO. My memories of the event include listening to the soundcheck from outside the venue the evening before. Hooky`s bassline to 'BLT' sent shivers down my spine as we listened outside in the warm evening sun. The Fall done a good show aswell, I thought they were at their best in the mid eighties. Ian Bunnyman singing 'Ceremony' was a nice touch, but I think he struggled with it a bit.

johnny james wrote: I'm fairly sure that at Sheffield and Liverpool New Order were on first just because their gear needed to be left in place rather than moved about after soundcheck.

Yes mate that could be a fair point...I remember getting into Royal Court quite early and New Order were still soundchecking !!

The same may have happened at Sheffield...the City Hall was packed to the rafters and after New Order's set finished @ about 9pm the place emptied in fear of having to listen to ABC..The only saving grace was that Cabaret Voltaire were playing the Leadmill the same night.!!

Weren't Stephen Morris and Peter Hook or Morris and Sumner quoted at an airport dissing Moz because they thought he was a prima donna!! I think that happened in 2001.

I like New Order, The Smiths, The Cure, Depeche Mode, and U2. I also love PIL.

Whats a Perry boy?

I wear polo shirts and adidas tennis shoes sometimes. Black shirt, black pants, white shoes. But I also like to weaer black suits.

Ive got swoopy bangs, but my hair is short on the back and sides.

Im an American.

Zachery Starkey wrote: I like New Order, The Smiths, The Cure, Depeche Mode, and U2. I also love PIL.

But do you like Killing Joke, more importantly?

I do like Killing Joke!

NIN, Bauhaus, and The Sisters of Mercy as well.

I also like Al Green, Marvin Gaye, Parliament Funkadelic, the Supremes, the Sex Pistols, the Talkign Heads, Ladytron, Goldfrapp, Public Enemy, and Jay Z.

Zachery Starkey wrote: Jay Z.

I don't remember any rivalry between N.O and the Smiths,but i do recall Bernard constantly refering to Morrissey as Dorrissey in one or two interveiws.I think Marr might have put him up to it.

Christopher Owens wrote:

Zachery Starkey wrote: Jay Z.

He is the Frank Sinatra of Hip Hop!

And the synth work and production on Can I Get A

Zachery Starkey wrote:

Im an American.

I never would have guessed

Zachery Starkey wrote: I do like Killing Joke!

NIN, Bauhaus, and The Sisters of Mercy as well.

I also like Al Green, Marvin Gaye, Parliament Funkadelic, the Supremes, the Sex Pistols, the Talkign Heads, Ladytron, Goldfrapp, Public Enemy, and Jay Z.

Not sure about Al Green but everyone else...brilliant! Good range.

I think the NO/Smiths rivalry is a fan based thing. It's true that when I was younger I'd put NO up there with the musical greats and everyone else (smiths, cure etc.) as fashion more than music. I'm a bit more open minded now...but not by much.

In the end it didn't matter as they were all played in the clubs and they were all lumped together by the big haired rocker bands.

ally wrote:

Blunderer wrote: Not many UK New Order fans followed Depeche Mode.

No offence, but how could you possibly know this for sure?

Shouldn't that be "not many UK New Order fans that I met followed Depeche Mode"?

But this thread's been full of generalisations anyway so why stop now. It must've been really dull being a music fan in the 80s having to conform to all these shitey stereotypes eh?

"I can't like that record, it's too uncool to darken my turntable"

Fcuking boring attitude.

I meant to post a few months ago about a gig review in one of the crappy free London papers (London Lite maybe) in which their 'music critic' not only referred to Depeche Mode in the same sentence as New Order but described them (DM) as 'a Manchester band'.

Doctor Clayhead wrote: In this month's "Uncut" there's a piece with Johnny Marr & Barney quasi-promoting their so-called "Best Of...".

Barney says something nice about Moz, which I assume is tongue-in-cheek given that Morrissey's general take on our Bernard was "that fucking talentless cunting little Salford oik what stole my Johnny".

I think he was referring to Matt Johnson then...

MONTY The Merciless wrote: I was at the Festival Of The Tenth Summer,I never assumed any rivalry,because to be honest,even to this very day,Manc artists seem to club together...hmm bar Mozzer and Mike Joyce But I did read something recently,might have been a Hooky interview.When Mozzer was interviewed on the Tube Hacienda special,he said JD were overrated,and Rob Gretton stepped in and said"You sing about doing yerself in,Ian had the fcuking guts to do it" to which MOZZER stormed off.Bit of Atmosphere,bit of Atmosphere...

Which proves Gretton was always the brain behind it all....

ally wrote: Hooky thinks Morrissey's a twat because Mozzah has - on occasion - made some ill-judged comments about Joy Division and Hooky's obviously quite protective of their legacy, and so he should be. On the other hand I did read Hooky praising Morrissey's second last album You Are The Quarry at the time as being a fantastic record. He's obviously big enough to put aside his personal dislike and see a good set of tunes for what they are so good on 'im

Morrissey has also done something similar in the past by admitting New Order's music isn't up his street but he can appreciate how important they were for Manchester.

Rob Gretton was apparently a big fan of The Smiths. I definitely read somewhere that he used to "go around Manchester telling anyone who would listen The Smiths would be the next big thing" possibly in Mick Middles's book.

I have a bad feeling this thread is going to descend into slagging off The Smiths or Morrissey when there are far more worthy targets out there.

Bringing shitey football rivalry-type themes into music is fucking pointless.

Agree. Don't forget it was because of Gretton though that The Smiths didn't sign to Factory. He was the one who listened to those first Troy Tate sessions and dismissed them as "shit". It was after that that Johnny made a few comments about Factory being passee, but his collaboration with Barney alone probably kills any suspicion of rivalry surely.

As for slagging off Moz, well, what can you do? The guy's a genious, granted, but also a cunt.

Midnight Blue wrote: For the MILLIONTH TIME

In North America, New Order, The Smiths/Moz, The Cure and Depeche Mode had the same fan base

I'd have thought this was a given by now. And not only there, but anywhere outside the UK.

Zachery Starkey wrote: I like New Order, The Smiths, The Cure, Depeche Mode, and U2. I also love PIL.

Whats a Perry boy?

I wear polo shirts and adidas tennis shoes sometimes. Black shirt, black pants, white shoes. But I also like to weaer black suits.

Ive got swoopy bangs, but my hair is short on the back and sides.

Im an American.

Also you do realise the danger of sporting such a monicker, right? Are you for real like Jack?

Well, if he's the guy, then

And say 'ello to yer dad for me.

Also, he'd fit right in really nicely should there ever be a Smiths reunion sens Mike Joyce, wouldn't you say?

fac443 wrote:

Zachery Starkey wrote: I like New Order, The Smiths, The Cure, Depeche Mode, and U2. I also love PIL.

Whats a Perry boy?

I wear polo shirts and adidas tennis shoes sometimes. Black shirt, black pants, white shoes. But I also like to weaer black suits.

Ive got swoopy bangs, but my hair is short on the back and sides.

Im an American.

Also you do realise the danger of sporting such a monicker, right? Are you for real like Jack?

My birthname, my real name, is indeed Zachery Allan Starkey.

its a coincidence that I have the same name as Ringo's kid.

At any rate, if you google Zak Starkey, youll get stuff on the drummer...

If you google Zachery Allan Starkey, you will get a ton of stuff on me.

having grown up in salford, i saw no rivally amongst my friends. we loved jd/no. we loved the smiths as well. its just our passions were more with the real deal. i enjoyed seeing the smiths at the festival of the 10th. i have no smiths on cd, but probably should have the first album. i guess that says it for me