New Order / The Smiths rivalry

Any of you around in the eighties rememember the intense New Order/Smith rivalry in the 80s?

As Manchester's big two, lots of us liked both bands but at the time, you generally had one who you backed - a bit like the Blur/Oasis thing in the 90s.

I remember there was lots of falling out at the Festival of The Tenth Summer gig at GMEX about who would headline. It was a Factory event so I am sure that is why New Order won the day, but The Smiths played at teatime as a compromise - they didn't want to play just before New Order as that would have been an admission of inferiority.

Prior to that, at the "From Manchester With Love" gig, New Order played first, then The Fall, then The Smiths - again this may have been some sort of compromise.

Can anyone remember this rivalry? Was anyone at either gig above?

Never really saw it as a rivalry. Maybe The Smiths did, maybe some of their fans did, but I don't think New Order gave a toss and I know that I didn't, as a New Order fan who also saw The Smiths play a number of times and bought a few of their records.

We know what Hooky thinks of Morrissey though.....

I remember reading Morrissey had a begrudging respect for JD but thought they were too grey.

The Queen Is Dead is one of my favorite records, but The Smiths fall third after Echo & The Bunnymen and NO as my favorite British groups from the 80s.

i'm sure i read in the recent q magazine manchester special,hooky mentions something about altough he's not a fan the smiths/morrissey are prob the greatest manchester band

or words close to that

Morrissey likes drama and rivalry fits the bill. Whether or not it's really there doesn't matter to him.

In this month's "Uncut" there's a piece with Johnny Marr & Barney quasi-promoting their so-called "Best Of...".

Barney says something nice about Moz, which I assume is tongue-in-cheek given that Morrissey's general take on our Bernard was "that fucking talentless cunting little Salford oik what stole my Johnny".

(The Good Doctor) Martin Fradley wrote: "that fucking talentless cunting little Salford oik what stole my Johnny".

That's gotta be unhygienic

I remember that i was never fussed on The Smiths till after they split up,whic probably explains why i think Strangeways Here We Come is their best album? A lot of my mates that were big Smiths fans never really liked New Order till Technique came along.

Was at From Manc with Love gig..Up in the rafters @ The Royal Court..twas about -15.

Not sure about rivalry..I think New Order just wanted to play and fook off.

Similar to Miners benefit gig @ Sheffield...New Order came on before Billy Bragg and ABC..

For what it's worth I thought The Smiths were OK @ Liverpool...as for ABC...Shoot that poison arrow where the sun don't shine !!!

i don't really recall any rivalry. some of the recent stuff i read does suggest some dislike between The Smiths and the Factory team.

I'm fairly sure that at Sheffield and Liverpool New Order were on first just because their gear needed to be left in place rather than moved about after soundcheck.

Don't read anything into that.

I remember that at the Tenth Summer they couldn't film The Smiths because (no doubt) Mozza objected. The only band on that day that weren't filmed (not that anyone ever got to see the footage anyway!).

I was at the Festival Of The Tenth Summer,I never assumed any rivalry,because to be honest,even to this very day,Manc artists seem to club together...hmm bar Mozzer and Mike Joyce But I did read something recently,might have been a Hooky interview.When Mozzer was interviewed on the Tube Hacienda special,he said JD were overrated,and Rob Gretton stepped in and said"You sing about doing yerself in,Ian had the fcuking guts to do it" to which MOZZER stormed off.Bit of Atmosphere,bit of Atmosphere...

I remember a Morrisey quote, something like:

"I've never understood the appeal of Joy Division, over my head I guess, or possibly under it"

The quote was published again but with New Order in place of JD.

If there was a rivalry,I certainly don't remember it,I just think it's a story that's grown over the years,& certainly given fuel everytime Hooky says he fookin' hates Morrissey.If you actually think about it,Bernard & Johnny Marr have been working together since at least '89,so I think it's just bollox

smiths = mainly a girls band

new order = mainly a boys band.

never saw a rivalry. just both from the 80's.

I don't remember any rivalry at all but then I didn't grow up in Manchester and haven't any inside information. Just heard the music, bought it and read the music papers and argued with school friends over it (tirelessly).

The way I remember the early to mid-80s was most kids were non-indie and a few were indie and the indie holy trinity were New Order, The Smiths and The Cure. You basically loved all three or hated all three. There wasn't really a rivalry maybe because the press couldn't conjure one up. The Smiths were always being interviewed whilst New Order pretty much shunned interviews for years. Incidentally I remember New Order getting a lot of mediocre reviews for singles and albums too which NME/Melody Maker reverted opinions on years later, whilst they thought the sun shone from Mozzer's backside at his every utterance. However I do remember a few digs at each other between New Order and The Cure over nicking each other's songs but it never seemed to get out of hand.

Stones Roses and Happy Mondays always seemed to get along too. There's room for all.

(addendum) Oh no, just remembered Mozzer did slag off Bernard a bit when Marr joined him in Electronic. But that wasn't until end of the eighties.

There certainly was rivally between the bands at the time. There were terrible arguments around the headline slot at The Tenth Summer - that's why The Smiths played so early.

HaciendaThat wrote:

The way I remember the early to mid-80s was most kids were non-indie and a few were indie and the indie holy trinity were New Order, The Smiths and The Cure. You basically loved all three or hated all three.

Not round here.

HaciendaThat wrote:

The way I remember the early to mid-80s was most kids were non-indie and a few were indie and the indie holy trinity were New Order, The Smiths and The Cure. You basically loved all three or hated all three.

You must have grown up in a strange place then, as I have never met an NO fan who was also into The C***. Many of my NO-fan mates liked The Smiths, as did I until I realised what a pretentious cock Morrissey was.

Not at all. The majority of the boys at my school worshipped Queen, Dire Straits and Bruce Springstein. Anything else especially indie was for gays (strange in retrospect). The girls mainly worshipped John Taylor of Duran Duran, although the 2 arty ones liked Japan. So the indie minority clubbed together and all liked the 'holy trinity' to varying ratios/in differing top 3's, etc.

Have you really never ever met absolutely anybody who liked both New Order and The Cure. Even just a little bit of the other one ? Wow, I must have talked to a lot of different people in my youth.

In Manchester you were not allowed to like New Order and The Cure in the 80s. Two completely different scenes.

If you were a real true New Order fan you were allowed to like other Factory bands, experimental electronic stuff like Eno/early Bowie/Electro, House Music when it came out, Kraftwork and that was pretty much it.

Other bands you were not allowed to like were Depeche Mode, U2, Big Country and Simple Minds. You had to sneer at bands like that.

I was never really aware of any rivalry between NO & the Smiths.

Also, someone used the term "Indie".

New Order were never really an "indie" band in the true sense of the word. Granted, nobody Factory was the most independant of independant labels (for a while) but the musical genre "indie", when it arrived mid-eigties, was used to describe jangly guitar bands, like the ones on the NME's infamous C86 tape. People who were "indie" bands, then, in my opinion, were bands like The Wedding Present, The Primitives and James. People who called themselves fans of "indie" music usually dressed in dark colours, baggy jumpers, pointy shoes and had big hair.

New Order fans in the mid eighties were often football casuals or people with a sharper sense of fashion.

Blunderer wrote: In Manchester you were not allowed to like New Order and The Cure in the 80s. Two completely different scenes.

If you were a real true New Order fan you were allowed to like other Factory bands, experimental electronic stuff like Eno/early Bowie/Electro, House Music when it came out, Kraftwork and that was pretty much it.

Other bands you were not allowed to like were Depeche Mode, U2, Big Country and Simple Minds. You had to sneer at bands like that.

Aaaaah, that explains why everybody I've ever met from Crawley hates New Order and The Smiths.

I would agree that they attracted quite different types of fans. Although there are quite a few people on here that say they were into both in the early days - but it tends to be the more gentle types.

Nowadays Morrissey fans seem to be more obsessive than NO (if that's possible), but I think Morrissey commands that with his somewhat aloof, almost god-like persona. NO are more down to earth on and off stage.

whether there was or wasn't a band rivalry, the idea is pretty childish. we all remember the ridiculous blur/oasis rivalry a decade ago. my boyfriend at the time, who was really into oasis, was actually upset with me that i liked blur! i didn't give two shits whether or not he was into oasis. i liked them, as well, anyway. but i didn't go on about his hot chocolate obsession.

Perry boys liked New Order Student/emotional fookers liked The Smiths Musicians liked the Bunnymen.

I liked all three - a right hotch-potch

Blunderer wrote: There certainly was rivally between the bands at the time. There were terrible arguments around the headline slot at The Tenth Summer - that's why The Smiths played so early.

all words in the Record shops was of this strong and bitter home turf rivalry. Owners would talk of the UK 'scene as all Drama. Presumably gotten from press or relations in England. Good music and a good time for the most part mind. if it was under Factory's label.

Real eye opener was seeing guys who listened and lived primarily with NYC Punk, metal, The Clash that sort. Really enjoy the Smiths and New Order while completely dismissing most everything even slightly acid- Club dancey.

As an old git of forty, I always thought (at the time) that they were two completely different bands from the same city. I perceived The Smiths as a sort-of throwback 60s band with twangy guitars and Mozz wailing about whatever whereas I was already smitten by New Order. Electronic always seemed more New Order than The Smiths but they had an original energy too.

I'm afraid I was a complete loner at school (in the early 80s) as I had long been an Ultravox obsessive and then that spread to the Order as well, the latter really getting into its stride as Uxox's once bright light began to fade at the end of 84. I didn't know anyone into the Order so it was a solo passion, the comparitive awkwardness and mystery adding to the allure I suppose. Somehow I was juggling all this with Kraftwerk and The The. Later on it was Detroit techno and the whole thing coalesced together. Strange times, the 80s!