New Order / The Smiths rivalry

I did like a lot of Smiths songs but i would never EVER have admitted that to one of their fans

I happen to like NO, The Smiths, and The Cure, and how could you guys forget mentioning Depeche Mode in that category! Out of all those, NO is clearly the best, but solid material comes from all of the aforementioned bands. Dont you guys love Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me and Disintegration????? How about Meat Is Murder and the Queen is Dead???? Incredible work.

J

HaciendaThat wrote: Have you really never ever met absolutely anybody who liked both New Order and The Cure. Even just a little bit of the other one ? Wow, I must have talked to a lot of different people in my youth.

Depends on what country you're from. In the UK, New Order is a macho band...

In the US, New Order, The Smiths and The Cure were all part of the same music scene.

Macho band? Liberace effect would be more like it, I think...

For the MILLIONTH TIME

In North America, New Order, The Smiths/Moz, The Cure and Depeche Mode had the same fan base

In England they had different, but overlapping, fanbases. All the bands had their own hardcore.

I went to see New Order in Connecticut in 1989 and was surprised at some of the band t-shirts I saw there - Depeche Mode was one of the common ones.

Not many UK New Order fans followed Depeche Mode.

Tim wrote:

HaciendaThat wrote:

The way I remember the early to mid-80s was most kids were non-indie and a few were indie and the indie holy trinity were New Order, The Smiths and The Cure. You basically loved all three or hated all three.

You must have grown up in a strange place then, as I have never met an NO fan who was also into The C***. Many of my NO-fan mates liked The Smiths, as did I until I realised what a pretentious cock Morrissey was.

I like The Cure Tim,have done since about '85,but since we've never met,you're record for having never met anyone who likes both still stands! Also,in answering Blunderer too & also because I'm a Mancunian in Manchester,I've never bothered too much about what scene a particular band was from or what fad to follow,a good tune is a good tune,something I appreciate more now than then sure,& I also think it depended on what circles you mixed in,I mean the Uni' brigade in Man' in the '80's all seemed terribly arty to me & very 'let's see what's cool this week so we can follow it & isolate everyone else & look oh-so fucking pretentious',but the circle I mixed in liked allsorts,from N.O./J.D.,The Cure,The Fall,Cocteaus,ACR,Chameleons,Smiths,U2,Cabs etc,they were all part of the same to us,it was 'indie' in the sense that it wasn't mainstream.Sure,there were exceptions,you couldn't openly admit to liking anything Goth,life would possibly get very lonely,very quickly.They were too diverse a genre at the time,even given the J.D. link

Ally wrote:

Blunderer wrote: Not many UK New Order fans followed Depeche Mode.

No offence, but how could you possibly know this for sure?

Shouldn't that be "not many UK New Order fans that I met followed Depeche Mode"?

But this thread's been full of generalisations anyway so why stop now. It must've been really dull being a music fan in the 80s having to conform to all these shitey stereotypes eh?

"I can't like that record, it's too uncool to darken my turntable"

Fcuking boring attitude.

Absolutely spot on,well put! & in less words than I took!

Ally wrote:

Blunderer wrote: Not many UK New Order fans followed Depeche Mode.

No offence, but how could you possibly know this for sure?

Shouldn't that be "not many UK New Order fans that I met followed Depeche Mode"?

But this thread's been full of generalisations anyway so why stop now. It must've been really dull being a music fan in the 80s having to conform to all these shitey stereotypes eh?

"I can't like that record, it's too uncool to darken my turntable"

Fcuking boring attitude.

But it kind of was like that a bit, I am not saying it is right, but you did have to be cool and to like the right stuff! Of course it was small minded.

And I am not just judging on New Order fans I met. When you went to a gig back then 70% of the crowd wore band t-shirts. You would see lots of Joy Division and common others would be The Fall, The Smiths and obsurer bands like Monocrome Set. Never many Depeche Mode.

For the record, I liked and went to see lots of bands beside New Order in the 80's, like The Fall, The Smiths, The Wedding Present, James, Happy Mondays, Stone Roses, Paris Angels, Nothside, Bradford...then I was blown away by Acid in the Summer of Love.

Ally wrote:

Judging an entire fanbase's musical tastes over the course of a decade simply by how many t-shirts you saw is faintly ridiculous is it not? Hardly scientific.

Yeah. Just cos I don't wear my "I LOVE CLIFF RICHARDS ME I DO" T-shirt, doesn't mean I'm not a fan

Ally wrote:

Blunderer wrote: For the record, I liked and went to see lots of bands beside New Order in the 80's, like The Fall, The Smiths, The Wedding Present, James, Happy Mondays, Stone Roses, Paris Angels, Nothside

Did you ever see any bands besides New Order in the 80s that weren't from the north or had a Factory connection? I only say this cos looking at the geography of where the bands you listed are from, a familiar pattern starts to emerge:

Manchester, Manchester, Leeds, Manchester, Manchester, Manchester, Manchester and er, Manchester.

There's other cities proper countries outside the north and everything

Of course there are, but that's how it was at the time. And I make no apologies for that because they were the most exciting bands around. In the 90s more or less all the music I liked was from way outside Manchester - Orbital, Leftfield, Pink Floyd, Suede etc. I broadened my horizons from when I was a blinkered teenager.

Anyway, the original point of this post was not rivally between fans but rivally between the bands - The Smiths and New Order. It did exist, as some posters are obviously aware,

Andrew Sayer wrote: Perry boys liked New Order Student/emotional fookers liked The Smiths Musicians liked the Bunnymen.

I liked all three - a right hotch-potch

johnny marr was a perry boy. thought goths liked the Bunny boys and veggie girls with glasses liked the smiths.

fuck, now i'm totally confused.

Ally wrote:

Blunderer wrote: When you went to a gig back then 70% of the crowd wore band t-shirts. You would see lots of Joy Division and common others would be The Fall, The Smiths and obsurer bands like Monocrome Set. Never many Depeche Mode.

Er, I'm guessing they didn't wear DM tshirts because it wasn't a DM gig? Assuming music fans in the 80s could afford more than one t-shirt of course. They'd probably decide to wear a NO/JD tshirt to a NO gig wouldn't they? Speaking personally, if I go to a NO gig I'll wear a NO t-shirt but if I go to a Doves gig I'll wear a Doves t-shirt.

"Well I didn't see many New Order tshirts at a Doves gig so their fans probably aren't into NO at all." = Bollocks.

Judging an entire fanbase's musical tastes over the course of a decade simply by how many t-shirts you saw is faintly ridiculous is it not? Hardly scientific.

Very wrong, actually Ally. In those days it was fashionable to wear other bands t-shirts at gigs as a badge of cool. So my admittedly non-scientific study is in fact a fair guage. As is the fact that I knew and know many New Order fans, was heavily involved in the scene at the time, went to watch lots of other bands, went to the Hacienda etc. And, I stand by what I said, not many New Order fans were Depeche Mode fans. They had different fanbases in the UK. There was some overlap, but not that much.

So, if you disagree with me, what do you base your argument on?

Blunderer wrote:

Ally wrote:

Blunderer wrote: For the record, I liked and went to see lots of bands beside New Order in the 80's, like The Fall, The Smiths, The Wedding Present, James, Happy Mondays, Stone Roses, Paris Angels, Nothside

Did you ever see any bands besides New Order in the 80s that weren't from the north or had a Factory connection? I only say this cos looking at the geography of where the bands you listed are from, a familiar pattern starts to emerge:

Manchester, Manchester, Leeds, Manchester, Manchester, Manchester, Manchester and er, Manchester.

There's other cities proper countries outside the north and everything

Of course there are, but that's how it was at the time. And I make no apologies for that because they were the most exciting bands around. In the 90s more or less all the music I liked was from way outside Manchester - Orbital, Leftfield, Pink Floyd, Suede etc. I broadened my horizons from when I was a blinkered teenager.

Anyway, the original point of this post was not rivally between fans but rivally between the bands - The Smiths and New Order. It did exist, as some posters are obviously aware,

and then along came Cast.

So you admit then, Ally, that not many New Order fans were Depeche Mode fans.

Which is what I said.

Crikey, wish I hadn't mentioned New Order and The Cure in the same sentence, not to mention the word "Indie". It's all sounding like a squabble in the 6th form common room from 1985.

Is it true that the rivalry started when Gillian spilt Mozza's pint ?

Robert Smith never liked Morrissey and The Smiths.... Morrissey never liked electronic music... never heard of them being rivals. Two of the biggest groups of their decade.... Someone talked about 10th Festival Summer gig... I have a bootleg of this and there is Ian McCulloch singing Ceremony wich for several times he said being a song he would like to have composed.... Ian loves NO/JD!

I loved arguing about music in the 6th form common room. it has been like old times for me!

So, in summary, to be a true New Order fan you are only allowed to like other Factory bands. You may just get away with "alternative" bands of the same era as long as you put them way down the list after New Order. Wierd, experimental bands, especially utilising technology and taking drugs, are fine.

But The Cure and Depeche Mode? You should be relieved of your New Order records, banned from dancing to them at 6th Form Discos and banished from all gigs.

I am glad we got that straight.

Marco Dias wrote: Robert Smith never liked Morrissey and The Smiths.... Morrissey never liked electronic music... never heard of them being rivals. Two of the biggest groups of their decade.... Someone talked about 10th Festival Summer gig... I have a bootleg of this and there is Ian McCulloch singing Ceremony wich for several times he said being a song he would like to have composed.... Ian loves NO/JD!

Yes, Ian McCulloch came on with a fag on and looked cool as f**k. I remember it well.

But, still trying to drag the thread back to its original point, New Order and Smiths argued about who would headline.

Killing Joke pissed all over them. Period.

New Order and The Smiths wrote great music in this period. So what if they didn't like each other?

So what if they didn't like each other?

Was it gay tension?

Between Moz and Gillian?

LE Roberts wrote:

So what if they didn't like each other?

Was it gay tension?

Between Moz and Gillian?

Well Hooky did have the leather trousers....

Christopher Owens wrote:

LE Roberts wrote:

So what if they didn't like each other?

Was it gay tension?

Between Moz and Gillian?

Well Hooky did have the leather trousers....

Oooooh, those early Warsaw photos. Moustaches and a leather cap. The signs were there.