A Statement from Blunderer

A Statement

To those of you I upset with my recent assertations that the pop group, New Order, should have split up years ago, I wish to extend my sincere apologies. I would particularly like to apologise to “The Mynx” and “El Jarvo” who I clearly placed under intolerable strain with my comments.

I was, erroneously, under the impression that the pop group New Order, had had their best days. I was also convinced that their live performances were uninspiring, their records mediocre and their fanbase falling.

It has since been illustrated to me, by the wholly impartial poll on the website “Neworder.net”, that I was, in fact, wrong. On reflection, then, after the shocking realisation that the unbiased people who post on such a forum not agree with me, I have reviewed my initial feelings about recent live performances, and concluded the following:

New Order are still a band at the cutting edge. They are paving the way for new bands and pushing musical boundaries. As demographics change, their audience represents the movers and shakers of the music world. 35-50 year olds are the ones who now set trends – in the supermarket, on the golf course and at the Bridge Club.

With regards to mediocre records, I have listened over the weekend to the last three albums (I disregarded the 237 compilation/remix albums) and there are indeed, two half decent tracks on them. So I was wrong about that, too.

Unfortunately I was under the impression that a forum was a place for opinions. It is obvious to me now I suffered a severe lapse in judgement. I was taken aback by the importance of a pop group to some people’s lives. For my part I am now married, have children and have built a business, but I now appreciate that these are not necessarily the most important things in all people’s lives.

The names “cunt”, “prick”, “douchebag”, “shit-stirrer” and “Flamer” have all been flung in my direction, words which have upset my family and placed me under an incredible amount of strain over the last few days.

To those of you I offended, I am sorry.

I am very, very, sorry.

New Order should continue as long as they want, along with The Rolling Stones, Take That and The Drifters.

And the fuckers BANNED me for having the WRONG haircut!

is right Blunderer mate.

keep em comin pal.

For what it's worth

LCD Soundsystem Primal Scream The Juan Maclean Flaming Lips and Hot Chip

currently piss all over New Order

either live on record or both.

Hank Wiseass© wrote: For what it's worth

LCD Soundsystem Primal Scream The Juan Maclean Flaming Lips and Hot Chip

currently piss all over New Order

either live on record or both.

good to see Shieldsy back.

did Sankey get sliced the other week?

J.A.K wrote:

Hank Wiseass© wrote: For what it's worth

LCD Soundsystem Primal Scream The Juan Maclean Flaming Lips and Hot Chip

currently piss all over New Order

either live on record or both.

good to see Shieldsy back.

did Sankey get sliced the other week?

News to me if he has been.

As long as you've learned to replace the word fact with opinion I'm a happy bunny....

Honest

Chaps, asking me what my favourite music is is irrelevant to our, erm, friendly disagreement. My point is not “my music is better than yours” but that New Order should have split up years ago. Your “well, what are you into then?” arguing smacks of the playground.

For the record, if I get a bit of weed and an empty house, or a long car journey, I may listen to Royksop, The Aphex Twin, early 70s Pink Floyd, Thom Yorke, Mr Scruff, even some New Order.

But I am just as likely to watch the telly. Or read a book. Or do some writing. Because I am closer to 40 than 30.

Don’t you see?

Hank Wiseass© wrote: For what it's worth

Primal Scream

Fuck off.

Bobby Gillespie would give his right arm to be in NewOrder.

And when he got the chance he helped make probably the worst piece of shite NewOrder have ever released.

And if his band were so much more important than NewOrder he wouldn't have, THIS YEAR, in Barcelona, spent the whole of the set watching from the wings of the stage, which meant that PrimalScream started their set, on a smaller stage, 20 minutes late.

As for Mani, I suppose he's just about cutting edge enough to support NewOrder in 2005 by spinning a few records while the audiance was in the bar.

:p

Hank Wiseass© wrote:

J.A.K wrote:

Hank Wiseass© wrote: For what it's worth

LCD Soundsystem Primal Scream The Juan Maclean Flaming Lips and Hot Chip

currently piss all over New Order

either live on record or both.

good to see Shieldsy back.

did Sankey get sliced the other week?

News to me if he has been.

could just be ale talk in the pub.

err...Sorry Blunderer. keep liking what you like.

El Jarvo wrote:

Hank Wiseass© wrote: For what it's worth

LCD Soundsystem Primal Scream The Juan Maclean Flaming Lips and Hot Chip

currently piss all over New Order

either live on record or both.

Are we talking current output solely?

Or do you genuinely believe that, say, Hot Chip have anything in their set which is better than, say, Ceremony or Temptation?

Seen them live and it was a far better show than the last 3 times I've seen New Order and they weren't even the best act on the bill. I don't think they're as good as New Order were at their best.

Primal Scream's Glastonbury performance had an intensity New Order just haven't got any more. I have seen them live but I'm largely going on the TV screening of that performance.

It's basically a list of bands who I've witnesses in one form or another and thought that's fucken greatnes right there.

Primal Scream are shite. The main reason they are popular is because the singers a drugged up twat, the bass player used to be in the Stone Roses and Kate Moss is mates with them. Riot City Blues is beyond shite.

Hot Chip are very good. But not as good as New Order are in the first 20 minutes of their set and could be if they put some damn effort into it.

I actually saw The Flaming Lips a few weeks ago, and was actually very, very good. Mad as you like, but relied too much on gimmicks to be genuinely cutting edge. And the last album is rubbish?

Its hard to say who is genuniely cutting edge these days. Is anyone genuinely cutting edge, theres quite a few experimental bands out there, but cutting edge? Its hard to say...

Intensity? Primal Scream at Glastonbury? I didnt see them, but by all accounts, they were shite, the sound was awful, Gillespie didnt give a fuck and was a complete disaster.

El Jarvo wrote:

You know when Gillespie got his head kicked in, Spain-side... .

... er, were you in the frame for that?

It weren't me, Copper, you'll never make it stick. I got an alibi, I was watchin' NewOrder wiv fousands of other kids.

Leggy D wrote:

El Jarvo wrote:

You know when Gillespie got his head kicked in, Spain-side... .

... er, were you in the frame for that?

It weren't me, Copper, you'll never make it stick. I got an alibi, I was watchin' NewOrder wiv fousands of other kids.

......from the TOILETS?

Uncle Liam wrote: Intensity? Primal Scream at Glastonbury? I didnt see them, but by all accounts, they were shite, the sound was awful, Gillespie didnt give a fuck and was a complete disaster.

Well if you didn't see it then you don't know. All accounts round these parts appears to be a few people who like The Killers and haven't bought a record this year. I'd say it epitomised Rock 'n' Roll.

Compare our heroes bringing on that flabby freak to wail through Jetstream to their rendition of Swastika Eyes.

Leggy D wrote:

Hank Wiseass© wrote: For what it's worth

Primal Scream

Fuck off.

Bobby Gillespie would give his right arm to be in NewOrder.

And when he got the chance he helped make probably the worst piece of shite NewOrder have ever released.

And if his band were so much more important than NewOrder he wouldn't have, THIS YEAR, in Barcelona, spent the whole of the set watching from the wings of the stage, which meant that PrimalScream started their set, on a smaller stage, 20 minutes late.

As for Mani, I suppose he's just about cutting edge enough to support NewOrder in 2005 by spinning a few records while the audiance was in the bar.

:p

I'd say it was quite telling that of the two tracks produced by that collaboration Primal Scream came out with Shoot Speed Kill Light and all New Order could muster was well shite.

Hank Wiseass© wrote:

I'd say it was quite telling that of the two tracks produced by that collaboration Primal Scream came out with Shoot Speed Kill Light and all New Order could muster was well shite.

So... Barney helps out on a PrimalScream track and it's one of the best things they've done in 5 years.

Bobby helps out on a NewOrder track and it's the worst thing they've ever done.

Don't quiet see how thats a good thing for your argument

Nearly 1000 posts there Davey Boy...

blunderer needs a blunt, please pass him one

A little something from a Primal Scream site...

As cutting edge as NewOrder when it comes to setlists it seems...

November 10th setlist: Movin' On Up Dolls Jailbird Shoot Speed / Kill Light Suicide Sally & Johnny Guitar Kill All Hippies Burning Wheel When The Bomb Drops The 99th Floor Medication Kowalski Swastika Eyes Country Girl Rocks

(Encore) Accelerator Rise What goes on (VU cover)

November 11th setlist: Movin' On Up Dolls Jailbird Shoot Speed / Kill Light Suicide Sally & Johnny Guitar Kill All Hippies Burning Wheel When The Bomb Drops The 99th Floor Medication Kowalski Swastika Eyes Country Girl Rocks

(Encore 1) Damaged What goes on (VU cover) Accelerator Rise

(Encore 2) Sick City Skull X

Uncle Liam wrote: Nearly 1000 posts there Davey Boy...

And I've been planning to use my 1000th wisely

Something with meaning, relevance, reverence and cutting edgeness

So...

Bobby Gillespie's a cunt.

Right..........

El Jarvo wrote:

EDIT: Oh, and Kraftwerk. Don't see how anyone can not see Kraftwerk on them big screens and just go 'oooh'. A couple of workmates of mine were at the Brixton double-header two years back and didn't stop talking about if for weeks.

Two years on and I'm still going 'oooh' and talking about it!

Coldplay are OK, X&Y is a good effort at making something braver while staying accessible. Still, they can't really be compared to New Order, because they're too derivative... a bit of Smiths, a bit of U2, a slice of Joy Division, a pinch of Jeff Buckley, all in a watered cocktail. Half of the glass is water, actually... mmmh, not that strong... New Order made fookin huge S.O.N.G.S., like only Depeche Mode and The Smiths did. You had Ask, Never Let Me Down Again and True Faith, three songs on the same level... of the bands you mention I can only see Primal Scream with Higher Than The Sun on that level, and that was 1991... don't even mention Royksopp, which don't even try to do songs as ambitiously timeless as New Order's, they're pleasant, interesting, nothing more, and much of what they do is influenced by New Order anyway. Emotional tunes with powerful sounds, maybe New Order weren't exactly the Disco Beatles like they were called, but it wasn't an unfair description. The only band I see around today with a similar ambition are Mew. They sound like a prog mix of My Bloody Valentine and Prefab Sprout, they're also New Order fans as well, and sometimes you can hear it, but they're also rather innovative, especially in this age of endless revivalism... Try Special, or the incredible Morricone-like grand finale of Comforting Sounds. Search for Apocalypso, a chorus larger than Saturn's rings. Those are fookin huge S.O.N.G.S., and yet they're not worth to be compared to anything on WFTSC.

Cutting Edge- Muse.

Spotnick wrote: One thing I'll never understand is why people care to post on here if they are no longer fan of the band.. that is out of my mind, but oh well, liberty of speech.

As for "cutting edge", you'd have to consider it with time. New Order didn't have the impact of a major label when they started, they did it their way, they might have been a lot more popular than they were just because of that.

Let's say, according to be one of the cutting edge bands in the UK (and obviously, not by everybody due to the amount of people hating them) is Coldplay.

If you compare it, well.

Parachutes > Movement A rush of blood to the head = Power, Corruption and Lies X&Y = Low-Life

(Just for the record, that's FOR ME, you are entitled to think PC&L and Low-Life are masterpieces and Coldplay's latest 2 opus were crap)

But then again, put the singles on the album, and I believe New Order had better material than Coldplay at the same stage of their career.

Now in terms of singles:

Ceremony, Everything's Gone Green and Temptation vs Yellow, Shiver and Trouble... New Order all the way.

Blue Monday, Confusion and Thieves Liks Us, well, to me they compared to In My Place, The Scientist and Clocks (The Scientist is probably in my favorite tunes of all time)... but the only one that will survive the ages is Blue Monday, but Confusion and Thieves are weaker.

Subculture, The Perfect Kiss and Shellshock vs Speed of Sound, Fix You and Talk... as much as I like The Perfect Kiss, the 2 others are weak as singles and Coldplay wins this.

And once again, it might not be fair to start with Movement, it should start with Unknown Pleasures, which gives a whole new perspective to this debate.

In terms if bands that should retire.. I'd put Depeche Mode and The Cure ahead of New Order, I'm sorry to say, but WFTSC is a lot better than "The Cure" and "Playing The Angel"...

Sirens is NOT better that "The Cure." It just isnt. "The Cure" is easily the best thing Smith et al has done since Disintegration.

Uncle Liam wrote:

Sirens is NOT better that "The Cure." It just isnt. "The Cure" is easily the best thing Smith et al has done since Disintegration.

I don't think they've ever topped The Head On The Door. Everything else, while having a few good tunes, just sounds flat.

ally wrote: Yeah, Muse are quite good at the moment... Starlight is one of the best singles of the year (for me anyway).

The awards they won - not that they matter - were for "Best Alternative" or something like that so they're definitely not accepted as mainstream!

A band I just don't get.

Saw them at the Ulster Hall, and was bored the whole time, yet the indie scene wanks over them and hails them at mad prophets.

Fuck me backwards with a sharp stick: poeple rambling about 'cutting edge' and before you know it yer back to the fucking Cure.

THE FUCKING CURE. THIS FUCKING WEBSITE!!!!

Can I just say that I really love New Order, much more than any other pop group ever. But they truly are wank.

Uncle Liam wrote:

Spotnick wrote: One thing I'll never understand is why people care to post on here if they are no longer fan of the band.. that is out of my mind, but oh well, liberty of speech.

As for "cutting edge", you'd have to consider it with time. New Order didn't have the impact of a major label when they started, they did it their way, they might have been a lot more popular than they were just because of that.

Let's say, according to be one of the cutting edge bands in the UK (and obviously, not by everybody due to the amount of people hating them) is Coldplay.

If you compare it, well.

Parachutes > Movement A rush of blood to the head = Power, Corruption and Lies X&Y = Low-Life

(Just for the record, that's FOR ME, you are entitled to think PC&L and Low-Life are masterpieces and Coldplay's latest 2 opus were crap)

But then again, put the singles on the album, and I believe New Order had better material than Coldplay at the same stage of their career.

Now in terms of singles:

Ceremony, Everything's Gone Green and Temptation vs Yellow, Shiver and Trouble... New Order all the way.

Blue Monday, Confusion and Thieves Liks Us, well, to me they compared to In My Place, The Scientist and Clocks (The Scientist is probably in my favorite tunes of all time)... but the only one that will survive the ages is Blue Monday, but Confusion and Thieves are weaker.

Subculture, The Perfect Kiss and Shellshock vs Speed of Sound, Fix You and Talk... as much as I like The Perfect Kiss, the 2 others are weak as singles and Coldplay wins this.

And once again, it might not be fair to start with Movement, it should start with Unknown Pleasures, which gives a whole new perspective to this debate.

In terms if bands that should retire.. I'd put Depeche Mode and The Cure ahead of New Order, I'm sorry to say, but WFTSC is a lot better than "The Cure" and "Playing The Angel"...

Sirens is NOT better that "The Cure." It just isnt. "The Cure" is easily the best thing Smith et al has done since Disintegration.

Liam, you're full of shit on this one. "The Cure" was just plain AWFUL. It was The Cure trying to sound like The Cure, ripping themselves off at every turn and producing only about 2 really good songs. Wish and Bloodflowers were far better than "The Cure."

Blunderer, can you just bloody explain that "G- MEX ,Summer 1987" .I'm still confused .That's all.Thankyou

Blunderer wrote: A Statement

To those of you I upset with my recent assertations that the pop group, New Order, should have split up years ago, I wish to extend my sincere apologies. I would particularly like to apologise to “The Mynx” and “El Jarvo” who I clearly placed under intolerable strain with my comments.

I was, erroneously, under the impression that the pop group New Order, had had their best days. I was also convinced that their live performances were uninspiring, their records mediocre and their fanbase falling.

It has since been illustrated to me, by the wholly impartial poll on the website “Neworder.net”, that I was, in fact, wrong. On reflection, then, after the shocking realisation that the unbiased people who post on such a forum not agree with me, I have reviewed my initial feelings about recent live performances, and concluded the following:

New Order are still a band at the cutting edge. They are paving the way for new bands and pushing musical boundaries. As demographics change, their audience represents the movers and shakers of the music world. 35-50 year olds are the ones who now set trends – in the supermarket, on the golf course and at the Bridge Club.

With regards to mediocre records, I have listened over the weekend to the last three albums (I disregarded the 237 compilation/remix albums) and there are indeed, two half decent tracks on them. So I was wrong about that, too.

Unfortunately I was under the impression that a forum was a place for opinions. It is obvious to me now I suffered a severe lapse in judgement. I was taken aback by the importance of a pop group to some people’s lives. For my part I am now married, have children and have built a business, but I now appreciate that these are not necessarily the most important things in all people’s lives.

The names “cunt”, “prick”, “douchebag”, “shit-stirrer” and “Flamer” have all been flung in my direction, words which have upset my family and placed me under an incredible amount of strain over the last few days.

To those of you I offended, I am sorry.

I am very, very, sorry.

New Order should continue as long as they want, along with The Rolling Stones, Take That and The Drifters.

Now they are a band - up here on Sat. night they were playing in two different towns (Boro & Darlo) hardcore. I think one of them has a post-man who used to deliver the mail for one of the Drifters, or summat shite like that. Blunderer - that is cutting edge my son.

p. s. Why feel the need to take 'blo' before you listen to Aphex Twin etc... Can't handle it eh.. Shouldnt need drugs to listen to music, pour moi Richard D James, Underground Resistance, Richie Hawtin et al. are the drug.

Blunderer wrote:

It has since been illustrated to me, by the wholly impartial poll on the website “Neworder.net”, that I was, in fact, wrong.

They've done a impartial poll on Neworder.net as well? You upset them too?

Hmmm... Who's still relevant in terms of pop music?

Well, if the NME are to be believed...

• Babyshambles/Libertines off-shoots - never really got into them - seem to be (in)famous due to that smack-addict twat Pete Doherty - music is rubbish
• Kasabian - not bad, but I still don't "get" them - maybe a couple more listens to their album(s) - JG likes them!
• The Killers - yeah, listenable - they got their name from the Crystal video - might have to try and relisten to their first album and take it from there
• Muse - miffed that they clashed with Orbital at Glasto 94 (it was Orbital's last Glasto)... Quite like their Supernova Black Hole (think that's what it's called?) single/album
• Arctic Monkeys - yeah, catchy tunes - whether they can keep this up beyond one album, I dunno?
• Franz Ferdinand - all the songs sound the same to me, I don't mind their songs, but to listen to an entire album is a bit too much...
• Kaiser Chiefs - again, not too bad - not my favourite band of all time, but listenable...
• Keane - not too Keane on this lot (although Shugs likes 'em!) - saw a bit of their set after New Order at Barcelona, and the songs didn't click...
• Thom Yorke - never been a big fan of Radiohead, or their AFX-style albums (AFX does it better!)
• Bloc Party - not heard enough of them to make a judgement...
• Snow Patrol - fairly boring uninteresting band... Still to get into any of their songs...
• Embrace - singer whines too much - I agree with Hooky about their World Cup effort!

Personally, my favourite bands are in the dance-scene nowadays, and I don't believe that any of them are relevant any more (808 State, A Guy Called Gerald, Orbital-related, Orb, AFX, Squarepusher, Skam acts, etc)...

Ah well, each to their own!

El Jarvo wrote:

Nick King wrote:

• Muse - miffed that they clashed with Orbital at Glasto 94 (it was Orbital's last Glasto)...

'04, surely?

Yup - you spotted the deliberate mistake!

In my meaningless opinion New Order shite all over these newer bands. There is no contest between them and Primal Scream, went to see Primal Scream at the SECC in Glasgow the other week and was bored shitless mid set. Anyone who says their new album is good is LYING.

As for newer band check out The Union of Knives from Glasgow. I wouldn't say their cutting edge, but theyre fuckin good!

www.myspace.com/unionofknives

mozza wrote: In my meaningless opinion New Order shite all over these newer bands. There is no contest between them and Primal Scream, went to see Primal Scream at the SECC in Glasgow the other week and was bored shitless mid set. Anyone who says their new album is good is LYING.

As for newer band check out The Union of Knives from Glasgow. I wouldn't say their cutting edge, but theyre fuckin good!

www.myspace.com/unionofknives

totally agree re: the Union of Knives.. was telling Jefferani about them the other day..

Union of Knives

The names “cunt”, “prick”, “douchebag”, “shit-stirrer” and “Flamer” have all been flung in my direction, words which have upset my family and placed me under an incredible amount of strain over the last few days.

i know i probably shouldn't add on to that list. but in my crazy humor i would like to add "fat ass nazi spy". lol. isn't the strain apart of the job you signed on to doooooo?

Christopher Owens wrote:

Uncle Liam wrote:

Sirens is NOT better that "The Cure." It just isnt. "The Cure" is easily the best thing Smith et al has done since Disintegration.

I don't think they've ever topped The Head On The Door. Everything else, while having a few good tunes, just sounds flat.

Even by your standards, thats a completely stupid comment.

Christopher Owens wrote:

ally wrote: Yeah, Muse are quite good at the moment... Starlight is one of the best singles of the year (for me anyway).

The awards they won - not that they matter - were for "Best Alternative" or something like that so they're definitely not accepted as mainstream!

A band I just don't get.

Saw them at the Ulster Hall, and was bored the whole time, yet the indie scene wanks over them and hails them at mad prophets.

Even by your standards, a truly idiotic comment.

Burt Reynolds wrote:

mozza wrote: In my meaningless opinion New Order shite all over these newer bands. There is no contest between them and Primal Scream, went to see Primal Scream at the SECC in Glasgow the other week and was bored shitless mid set. Anyone who says their new album is good is LYING.

As for newer band check out The Union of Knives from Glasgow. I wouldn't say their cutting edge, but theyre fuckin good!

www.myspace.com/unionofknives

totally agree re: the Union of Knives.. was telling Jefferani about them the other day..

Union of Knives

Well, if Union of Knives aren't cutting edge, nobody is

Maybe the Sissor Sisters are the cutting edge band we're looking for.

Leggy D wrote:

Uncle Liam wrote: Nearly 1000 posts there Davey Boy...

And I've been planning to use my 1000th wisely

Something with meaning, relevance, reverence and cutting edgeness

So...

Bobby Gillespie's a cunt.

Leggy D!

I always had you down as a quiet, clean cut, type chap!

It's always the quiet ones

Leggy D wrote: It's always the quiet ones

Leggy D wrote:

Maybe the Sissor Sisters are the cutting edge band we're looking for.

I reckon that's who Blunderer is now into.

Uncle Liam wrote:

Even by your standards, thats a completely stupid comment.

Why? Your comment about The Cure being a great album is bollocks, unless you like miserable bedsit songs to help you get over the fact that no one will go to bed with you. Hey, you're a Mozza fan so I suppose that theory holds water.

Re. Muse. If I spend most of a gig at the bar, that's how I know they're crap.

Nobody's cutting edge becuase there is no cutting edge anymore. It's all over. Everything's been done before.

It's all gone downhill since the early 90s.

Yay!!!! COMMUNITY!!!!!

El Jarvo wrote:

Doctor Clayhead wrote: Yay!!!! COMMUNITY!!!!!

Don't you have a spellchecker?

It's COMMUNIDEE!

Word.

PEACE, bro'!!

Christopher Owens wrote:

Uncle Liam wrote:

Even by your standards, thats a completely stupid comment.

Why? Your comment about The Cure being a great album is bollocks, unless you like miserable bedsit songs to help you get over the fact that no one will go to bed with you. Hey, you're a Mozza fan so I suppose that theory holds water.

Re. Muse. If I spend most of a gig at the bar, that's how I know they're crap.

Erm... surely thats what every Cure album is about?

as for your Muse comment. So you comment on it despite spending most of the gig in the bar. Wow! Wonder what insight you got from there.

you are a ignorant twat of the highest order. Compared to you, Blunderer is a fucking genius.

put the conkers away you two.

Uncle Liam wrote:

Christopher Owens wrote:

Uncle Liam wrote:

Even by your standards, thats a completely stupid comment.

Why? Your comment about The Cure being a great album is bollocks, unless you like miserable bedsit songs to help you get over the fact that no one will go to bed with you. Hey, you're a Mozza fan so I suppose that theory holds water.

Re. Muse. If I spend most of a gig at the bar, that's how I know they're crap.

Erm... surely thats what every Cure album is about?

as for your Muse comment. So you comment on it despite spending most of the gig in the bar. Wow! Wonder what insight you got from there.

you are a ignorant twat of the highest order. Compared to you, Blunderer is a fucking genius.

Uncle Liam wrote: Intensity? Primal Scream at Glastonbury? I didnt see them, but by all accounts, they were shite, the sound was awful, Gillespie didnt give a fuck and was a complete disaster.

Hmmmmmm!

haha

didn't see them. but by all accounts...

Hank Wiseass© wrote:

Uncle Liam wrote:

Christopher Owens wrote:

Uncle Liam wrote:

Even by your standards, thats a completely stupid comment.

Why? Your comment about The Cure being a great album is bollocks, unless you like miserable bedsit songs to help you get over the fact that no one will go to bed with you. Hey, you're a Mozza fan so I suppose that theory holds water.

Re. Muse. If I spend most of a gig at the bar, that's how I know they're crap.

Erm... surely thats what every Cure album is about?

as for your Muse comment. So you comment on it despite spending most of the gig in the bar. Wow! Wonder what insight you got from there.

you are a ignorant twat of the highest order. Compared to you, Blunderer is a fucking genius.

Uncle Liam wrote: Intensity? Primal Scream at Glastonbury? I didnt see them, but by all accounts, they were shite, the sound was awful, Gillespie didnt give a fuck and was a complete disaster.

Hmmmmmm!

Twat. And no, not every Cure album is about being a miserable twat. Three Imaginary Boys is hardly miserable. And from Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me onwards, he forgot about melody.

FtotheDoubleOff wrote: Nobody's cutting edge becuase there is no cutting edge anymore. It's all over. Everything's been done before.

It's all gone downhill since the early 90s.

The Edge handing the blade in for amnesty and The Cutting Crew spliting did'nt help

FtotheDoubleOff wrote: Nobody's cutting edge becuase there is no cutting edge anymore. It's all over. Everything's been done before. It's all gone downhill since the early 90s.

I'm afraid this is the case. "Rock music", in the widest meaning of the word, including mainstream pop to indie, is going to end like jazz. It won't ever die, it will settle on the current status, and if you think about it nothing new has really been happening since Kurt Cobain died. Grunge already was an alternative take on 70s hard rock, but nobody can invent anything from ground zero, you always need an inspiration, so we could say that the late 80s - early 90s were the last innovative age, with grunge, shoegazing and baggy... since then it went downhill indeed: Britpop, poor quality post punk revival, Britpop revival, generally safe and predicatable pop and rock following well tested standards. All we can expect in the near future is that the scene stays like it is, which is almost exactly the same of 10 years ago... Think about the changes between 1956 and 1966, between 1966 and 1976... 1976 and 1986... 1986 and 1996... they are amazing if compared to what happened in the last 10 years. The problem is that when jazz stopped being innovative rock'n'roll was just emerging to replace it for the general music consumer, while this time nothing seems to replace the agonizing rock'n'roll... Actually all seems to go worse, the few great bands are almost ignored, the underground grows but offers little quality, the mainstream is looking increasingly like a parody of itself. Still, paying much attention, something good is left, not enough for a proper scene, but we can always stick to the few promising bands, like Mew.

For a genuine music "movement" to happen there are three ingredients required:

A new music A new fashion A new drug

There have been three genuine, groundbreaking, music cultures which have occured in the last 40 years:

Hippy Punk Acid House

And nothing since.

All three scenes changed everything, musically and culturally.

Will there be another one? I like to think so. But if there is, it will not be us oldies involved. It will be the teenagers who rebel against all that has gone before.

A Misfits revival

Psychobilly tunes about sex and the devil and mad quiffs.

bring that on.

J.A.K wrote: A Misfits revival

Psychobilly tunes about sex and the devil and mad quiffs.

bring that on.

That's already happened over here.

of course though, there was some crap amongst the Ska good stuff.

El Jarvo wrote:

J.A.K wrote: of course though, there was some crap amongst the Ska good stuff.

Nonsense. Stick on Lip Up Fatty at a wedding and watch the floor erupt!

Nah. Special Brew for me.

Gangsters. The Specials.

Lip Up Fatty just reminds me of my Dad dancing at weddings...........not a pleasant memory.

teacher comes to break it up. back of the ead with a plastic cup.

ahhh dem MAD days!!

Blunderer wrote: Chaps, asking me what my favourite music is is irrelevant to our, erm, friendly disagreement. My point is not “my music is better than yours” but that New Order should have split up years ago. Your “well, what are you into then?” arguing smacks of the playground.

For the record, if I get a bit of weed and an empty house, or a long car journey, I may listen to Royksop, The Aphex Twin, early 70s Pink Floyd, Thom Yorke, Mr Scruff, even some New Order.

But I am just as likely to watch the telly. Or read a book. Or do some writing. Because I am closer to 40 than 30.

Don’t you see?

No argument that New Order's best days are behind them, but why does it follow that they should therefore have split up years ago? (Come to think of it, they _did_ split up years ago, I guess you mean they should have stayed splut...er...splitted...up).

And people want to know what you listen to because, for some strange reason, its much easier to attack than defend in this sort of argument. Presumambly for the same reason attack ads dominate US politics. I wonder why that is?

Blunderer wrote: For a genuine music "movement" to happen there are three ingredients required:

A new music A new fashion A new drug

There have been three genuine, groundbreaking, music cultures which have occured in the last 40 years:

Hippy Punk Acid House

And nothing since.

All three scenes changed everything, musically and culturally.

Will there be another one? I like to think so. But if there is, it will not be us oldies involved. It will be the teenagers who rebel against all that has gone before.

You are Tony Wilson and I claim my NOOL-patented £40.

Well i discovered DOLE ROCK and it CHANGED my life for EVER!

mr blunder

punk changed my outlook on life

however why did fucking thatcher remain in power for 17? years. discuss

it didnt change the tory government

Blunderer wrote: For a genuine music "movement" to happen there are three ingredients required: A new music A new fashion A new drug There have been three genuine, groundbreaking, music cultures which have occured in the last 40 years: Hippy Punk Acid House Will there be another one? I like to think so. But if there is, it will not be us oldies involved. It will be the teenagers who rebel against all that has gone before.

About the ingredients I'd add politics, they often were part of the enviroment, except in Acid House. I think that some groundbreaking cultures must be added to your list: early Rock'n'Roll (rockabilly etc.), Beat, Mod, Folk, Prog (though these two often mixed with hippy), Reggae, Hard Rock, Electro, Disco, Metal, Hip Hop... We may not like the music of some of these cultures but they've been extremely important. No one can deny the importance of (choosing one for each genre) Elvis or Chuck Berry, The Beatles, The Who, Bob Dylan or Crosby Stills Nash And Young (Fairport Convention or Nick Drake in England), Yes or Genesis, Bob Marley, Led Zeppelin, Kraftwerk, Patrick Cowley or Donna Summer, Metallica, Public Enemy... In my own little indie world, the evolution brought to the post punk stream by the likes of Sonic Youth, Pixies and My Bloody Valentine (on the guitar side), New Order and Depeche Mode (on the synth pop side) are also extremely important. What's the huge paradox in the music history? When artists had analogue equipment, they were always inventing new sounds and new rhythms, new guitar pedals, new keyboards, new drum machines (I've read all the work Cowley put into creating the disco sequencers, it's unbelievable, a masterpiece of engineering). Now we would have much more chances of creating something new with all the digital tools, and yet artists use them just to emulate the old sounds. Guitars have never sounded safer, keyboards are virtually samples of sounds of decades ago. contemporary musicians = lazy bastards

PS: Punk didn't knock down the Tory government because the most of the punks were reacting against a bad Labour government, some of them were even conservative, the most were anarchists or really didn't care. Also young voters got used to separate the music of an artist from his political point of view, otherwise Red Wedge would have worked.

SPATS !!!

Al...Can you do some digging and perhaps find a picture..

These shoes lasted about 5 seconds !!

Hank Wiseass© wrote: For what it's worth

LCD Soundsystem Primal Scream The Juan Maclean Flaming Lips and Hot Chip

currently piss all over New Order

either live on record or both.

Hah hah.

With the exception of the Flaming Lips, not a single band that you mentioned up there would even exist if it was for New Order. Those bands are all New Orders babies.

Primal Scream is embarrassing rock and Roll garbage. They should stop thrying to impersonate the Rolling Stones.

Ive seen Juan Maclean, LCD Soundsystem, Flaming Lip, and Hopt Chip live.

They were all great...

I saw New Order in Chicago in 2005, and it was better than any of those bands.

Mainly because New Orer simply write better songs. They are brilliant songwriters.

By the way....

I am 24 years old, i live in Columbus Ohio, USA, and Ive been a New Order fan since I was 13.

I love them.

I know tons of other people my age all over the USA who love New Order. I know tons of people here in Columbus who love New order. I know people younger than me who love New Order.

They are brilliant, even they are are bad.

They have made me laugh and cry, they make beautiful music.

I think they are fucking relevant.

And for the record....

I love Barneys dad dancing, his whooping. So does my girlfriend.

I love that New Order dont try to be cool. They are simply themselves. Goofy, crazed humans who love beer, art, football, having a laugh, and they just happen to make brilliant, beautiful music.

I make music.

www.myspace.com/Zachery AllanStarkey

(blatant promotion I know).

I would not be making music if it wasnt for New Order.

I know tons of others who are the same way.

New Order ARE RELEVANT.

And I want them to make another record and show us youngsters just how fucking awesome they are.

Blunderer wrote: For a genuine music "movement" to happen there are three ingredients required:

A new music A new fashion A new drug

There have been three genuine, groundbreaking, music cultures which have occured in the last 40 years:

Hippy Punk Acid House

And nothing since.

All three scenes changed everything, musically and culturally.

Will there be another one? I like to think so. But if there is, it will not be us oldies involved. It will be the teenagers who rebel against all that has gone before.

i think mick has mentioned two of the following, but whether you like them or not they are important, groundbreaking musical cultures: rap and metal. rap has ushered in a completely new style of clothing (see phat farm, fubu, etc.) and is a complete cultural phenomenon; metal was, too. you can divide metal into what i call 'classic' metal and hair metal. though i'm no expert on metal, bands like black sabbath, led zeppelin and motorhead and, yes, even motley crue, influenced how people dressed and how other bands played.

so nothing since? i think you're forgetting quite a few, brother.

Two other irons to throw in the fire.....grunge and MTV.

R&B, as well.

and as much as i hate to say it: new country.

blunderer, i think you find hippie, punk and acid house groundbreaking because they were groundbreaking to you. however, while they might be important to most people on this board, to the general public none of these musical styles made a dent. some people were taken in by rap, others by the new sounds of country music (which is why nashville is the place to be once again) and others by metal. they would consider these styles groundbreaking.

Zachery Starkey wrote:

Hank Wiseass© wrote: For what it's worth

LCD Soundsystem Primal Scream The Juan Maclean Flaming Lips and Hot Chip

currently piss all over New Order

either live on record or both.

Hah hah.

With the exception of the Flaming Lips, not a single band that you mentioned up there would even exist if it was for New Order. Those bands are all New Orders babies.

Primal Scream is embarrassing rock and Roll garbage. They should stop thrying to impersonate the Rolling Stones.

Ive seen Juan Maclean, LCD Soundsystem, Flaming Lip, and Hopt Chip live.

They were all great...

I saw New Order in Chicago in 2005, and it was better than any of those bands.

Mainly because New Orer simply write better songs. They are brilliant songwriters.

By the way....

I am 24 years old, i live in Columbus Ohio, USA, and Ive been a New Order fan since I was 13.

I love them.

I know tons of other people my age all over the USA who love New Order. I know tons of people here in Columbus who love New order. I know people younger than me who love New Order.

They are brilliant, even they are are bad.

They have made me laugh and cry, they make beautiful music.

I think they are fucking relevant.

And for the record....

I love Barneys dad dancing, his whooping. So does my girlfriend.

I love that New Order dont try to be cool. They are simply themselves. Goofy, crazed humans who love beer, art, football, having a laugh, and they just happen to make brilliant, beautiful music.

I make music.

www.myspace.com/Zachery AllanStarkey

(blatant promotion I know).

I would not be making music if it wasnt for New Order.

I know tons of others who are the same way.

New Order ARE RELEVANT.

And I want them to make another record and show us youngsters just how fucking awesome they are.

I'm not sure what's so funny, the only difference I can see is that you still think they're as good as they were. I've also been a fan since I was 13/14, also. it just so happens I was that age in 1983. So I doubt I need a history lesson off you, sonny.

I doubt anyone I know even bothered to buy WFTSC, my nephew's your age and we share a lot in common musically, I bought him PC&L for his 18th birthday, he likes all the DFA stuff as well. I'm pretty sure he hasn't got it. When it came out I forwarded a few of the tracks to a few people who were old fans, none of them even wanted the complete album, free.

Ooh, so now you're giving other people's music away for free.

I'll probably get hammered for saying this but I've never, ever, ever heard a decent argument why it's ok to steal (yes, STEAL) music from online. I know it's an unfashionable opinion, but the truth is the truth.

I mean, an obscure, hard to find track here and there - no big deal. But an entire album?

FtotheDoubleOff wrote: Ooh, so now you're giving other people's music away for free.

I'll probably get hammered for saying this but I've never, ever, ever heard a decent argument why it's ok to steal (yes, STEAL) music from online. I know it's an unfashionable opinion, but the truth is the truth.

I mean, an obscure, hard to find track here and there - no big deal. But an entire album?

And Blunderbus wonders why record sales aren't as high as back in the good old days :\ohwell:

FtotheDoubleOff wrote: Ooh, so now you're giving other people's music away for free.

I'll probably get hammered for saying this but I've never, ever, ever heard a decent argument why it's ok to steal (yes, STEAL) music from online. I know it's an unfashionable opinion, but the truth is the truth.

I mean, an obscure, hard to find track here and there - no big deal. But an entire album?

I happen to own it on two formats. I think 90% of the regulars on here had it prior to release, as did they for Get Ready.

Hank Wiseass© wrote:

Zachery Starkey wrote:

Hank Wiseass© wrote: For what it's worth

LCD Soundsystem Primal Scream The Juan Maclean Flaming Lips and Hot Chip

currently piss all over New Order

either live on record or both.

Hah hah.

With the exception of the Flaming Lips, not a single band that you mentioned up there would even exist if it was for New Order. Those bands are all New Orders babies.

Primal Scream is embarrassing rock and Roll garbage. They should stop thrying to impersonate the Rolling Stones.

Ive seen Juan Maclean, LCD Soundsystem, Flaming Lip, and Hopt Chip live.

They were all great...

I saw New Order in Chicago in 2005, and it was better than any of those bands.

Mainly because New Orer simply write better songs. They are brilliant songwriters.

By the way....

I am 24 years old, i live in Columbus Ohio, USA, and Ive been a New Order fan since I was 13.

I love them.

I know tons of other people my age all over the USA who love New Order. I know tons of people here in Columbus who love New order. I know people younger than me who love New Order.

They are brilliant, even they are are bad.

They have made me laugh and cry, they make beautiful music.

I think they are fucking relevant.

And for the record....

I love Barneys dad dancing, his whooping. So does my girlfriend.

I love that New Order dont try to be cool. They are simply themselves. Goofy, crazed humans who love beer, art, football, having a laugh, and they just happen to make brilliant, beautiful music.

I make music.

www.myspace.com/Zachery AllanStarkey

(blatant promotion I know).

I would not be making music if it wasnt for New Order.

I know tons of others who are the same way.

New Order ARE RELEVANT.

And I want them to make another record and show us youngsters just how fucking awesome they are.

I'm not sure what's so funny, the only difference I can see is that you still think they're as good as they were. I've also been a fan since I was 13/14, also. it just so happens I was that age in 1983. So I doubt I need a history lesson off you, sonny.

I doubt anyone I know even bothered to buy WFTSC, my nephew's your age and we share a lot in common musically, I bought him PC&L for his 18th birthday, he likes all the DFA stuff as well. I'm pretty sure he hasn't got it. When it came out I forwarded a few of the tracks to a few people who were old fans, none of them even wanted the complete album, free.

Well, thats fair.

I actually know quite a few people who bought WFTSC. And the alt radio station here in Columbus played Krafty a ton, and they still play Krafty a ton. Jetstream and Guilt both got a lot of club play here in Columbus as well, and WFTSC actually got a lot of positive reviews in the local press.

I dont think that musically NO are as innovative as they used to be, no, but I still think that they write great songs. I really like a lot of the songs on WFTSC and Get Ready.

Live, I think in some ways New Order are a lot better than they were. Ive seen the old footage......they dont move, they jsut stand there. Id get bored. I love that Barney dances like a drunken ass. NO look silly when they play live nowdays, but they also look like they are having fun, and I know that that translated into the audience at the show I was at.

I will say that I am dissapointed that NO dont use electronics now as much as they used to, especially live, but I still rate them pretty highly.

I mean, Iggy Pop porlly isnt as good live now as he was 25 years ago, and I havent liked his past 5 records. But he is still Iggy Pop, he changed music, so he has my respect. Johnny Lydon may be a clown nowdays, but Ill alwasy respect the ground that he broke with the Sex Psitols and on the first 3 Public Image Ltd. records. New Order are in the same boat.

I like all of the DFA stuff as well. I especially like the Juan Maclean, that guy is awesome. I met him, and he mentioned that he loved New Order and liked thier new album.

I'd be interested to see what your nephew thinks of WFTSC. I actually think that WFTSC is a far better album than PCL.

Yeah, sacreliege aint it?

:)

FtotheDoubleOff wrote: Ooh, so now you're giving other people's music away for free. I'll probably get hammered for saying this but I've never, ever, ever heard a decent argument why it's ok to steal (yes, STEAL) music from online. I know it's an unfashionable opinion, but the truth is the truth. I mean, an obscure, hard to find track here and there - no big deal. But an entire album?

Look, Hank said he gave some of the tracks, hoping people would have liked them and bought the album. This is something I've made quite some times. I don't know how many tapes I did in the 90s to friends and friends of friends with my favourite music, including always at least 7 or 8 tracks of New Order and related bands, hoping that people would get into them. Now, I would even agree with you, but the subject is not so simplistic like it would seem. My brother-in-law is a professional musician, before the Internet and file sharing became so popular his band sold almost twice the records, but as I told him it's not like people would buy every record they're downloading. An average music consumer can buy two or three CDs a month, he won't ever buy the other 10 he downloads (I'm talking about people with an average income, not rich persons who can afford dozens of CD a month like I'd want to). And also, sometimes people download records of bands they are not too sure to like, then if they like the album they buy the following release. I saw this happening many times. The problem is when you download your favourite bands, that's really wrong, no one of us should ever download New Order because if we don't buy their records, who will do? Also this shows you really have no passion for them. But if you're really not too sure you want to spend that money on a whole album of a band you're just discovering, maybe you'll like so much the album you have downloaded that next time you'll buy their album, or even buy the album you just have downloaded (this happens less often, but still happens). Luckily, the Internet is offering a way to go beyond this huge problem. iTunes offers you the chance of downloading single songs from albums. This doesn't still solve the problem of the purchase of a whole album, but you can start by buying the tracks you like. On MySpace bands stream four songs, and even allow the download sometimes. That's a good sampler to decide whether you really like them or not. There's still one huge problem, which is the cost of the CDs. As much as you'll like some bands, you'll never be able to afford to buy them all. So what should people do? I think a mixed approach is the best option (always remembering illegal downloads are becoming increasingly dangerous, with people, when caught, fined thousands of dollars for a dozen of tracks). It's impossible to buy all the CDs you'd want, but if you don't buy any, you're a fookin bastard. If you buy two or three, you've given a fair amount to the music industry. And browse iTunes and MySpace, they're not perfect, but still rather useful.

So becuase you can't afford all the cd's you want, you should be able to steal them, because you wouldn't be buying them anyway?

I'll remember that next time I go to buy a pair of shoes - and help myself to five more pairs - because, hey! I can't afford them, so I wouldn't be buying them anyway.

I'm not attacking anyone on this board - I just love poking holes in arguments on this. I've met so many people that will ARGUE TO THE DEATH that downloading illegaly is ok, and are SHOCKED that anyone would be stupid enough to say otherwise.

(and for the few people you know that will go out and buy the album after downloading it - there are a few HUNDRED that don't. That's the whole point in downloading it, so you DONT HAVE TO pay for it.

It's like buying a DVD, watching the movie, then deciding you dont like it and asking for a refund.)

FtotheDoubleOff wrote: So becuase you can't afford all the cd's you want, you should be able to steal them, because you wouldn't be buying them anyway? I'll remember that next time I go to buy a pair of shoes - and help myself to five more pairs - because, hey! I can't afford them, so I wouldn't be buying them anyway. It's like buying a DVD, watching the movie, then deciding you dont like it and asking for a refund.)

Well at least you can rent DVDs. In Italy renting a new DVD costs about 3 dollars, even less if it's older than one or two years. Quite a different cost. Also, music fans have a passion which brings them to download, while once you have that couple of shoes for the season you're usually done. And you don't have 3 millions of people stealing shoes. For that matter, you don't even have people stealing CDs from the stores. As I said, the subject is not simplistic, unfortunately your reply is. Told you, I'd agree with you, in a black and white world. Legal or illegal, I'm all on the legal side (hey, my sister would be much richer if people didn't download the records of her husband!). But it's not that easy. Once again, a mixed behaviour, in this case, is quite fair. Let's say a person buys 30 CDs in a year. If he downloads 50 other albums I wouldn't ask him to wait two more years to legally purchase each of them, because in those two years other albums will be released in which he might be interested. Life is simply not long enough for all the music you might want to hear. For example if you become interested in the Rolling Stones you should spend two or three years only buying all their records (to the point of getting bored) and ignore releases by any other artist. Let's face complete legality is totally unreal. Even back in 1987, when I discovered the most of my favourite bands. I was 14 years old and my mother gave me 10 dollars a week. How on earth could I have bought all the records I heard that year? The Smiths, Depeche Mode, New Order, Prefab Sprout, Cocteau Twins, Pixies, and the list goes on. Of fookin course I had to get records taped from friends, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to hear all those albums, to buy all the following releases of those artists, and buy the CDs of the most of the records I had on illegal tapes. File sharing is just an evolution of home taping, if music is good enough to spark a passion people will continue to buy music as well, as they've always did. I think the main reason of the drop in record sales is the drop in quality. When my favourite bands (the same of the albums which were illegally taped to me, the albums that made me a fan) released new albums I just felt compelled to buy them, I used to run to the record shop on the day of release, but the bands which have emerged in the last 10 years... well, they can fookin wait, mate. I don't really feel like running to the record store to buy the fookin Arctic Monkeys. Actually, I don't even feel like wasting the time to download them, but you get the idea.

Of fookin course I had to get records taped from friends, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to hear all those albums, to buy all the following releases of those artists, and buy the CDs of the most of the records I had on illegal tapes.File sharing is just an evolution of home taping, if music is good enough to spark a passion people will continue to buy music as well, as they've always did.

Hits the nail on the head, Mick. Good post.

Thanks, but if you agree there must be something wrong...

Don't know about that; I never had to have friends give me mix tapes to have heard all the bands I wanted to hear and know if they were interesting enough to buy..radio, mtv, etc would give me a good enough idea, even underground alternative stuff not in heavy rotation.

Yeah, quality of music has been laughable for years. But downloading illegaly could contribute to this. It's obviously taking an enormous chunk of sales, so record companies will be more inclined to just go for the safe, quick bets with bands that have a homogenic sound in line with the other homogenic crap.

I'm not trying to shove COMPLETE LEGALITY ALWAYS on you or anyone. I'm just trying to convince others that might be reading this that think they're some kind of freedom fighters sticking it to the man because they're downloading everything they want.

FtotheDoubleOff wrote: I never had to have friends give me mix tapes to have heard all the bands I wanted to hear and know if they were interesting enough to buy..radio, mtv, etc would give me a good enough idea, even underground alternative stuff not in heavy rotation.
Yeah, quality of music has been laughable for years. But downloading illegaly could contribute to this. It's obviously taking an enormous chunk of sales, so record companies will be more inclined to just go for the safe, quick bets with bands that have a homogenic sound in line with the other homogenic crap. I'm just trying to convince others that might be reading this that think they're some kind of freedom fighters sticking it to the man because they're downloading everything they want.

More than a question of knowing whether I wanted an album or not, it was a matter of having the money to buy them all. If I bought all the records I heard in 1987, I'd have finished many years later and I wouldn't have had the money to buy Loveless by My Bloody Valentine. What you say about the record companies is true, they actually drop many bands keeping the safer bets, for this reason file sharing is not a battle in favour of anyone, if music is poorer quality will be poorer, but it's also true a lot of bands are emerging with crap music and putting them on the NME cover doesn't guarantee sales, people can be cheated, but not always. I'd like to know the certain figures of the drop in sales though, sometimes record companies paint apocalyptic scenes, but I read 13% in 10 years on a reliable Italian site, that's not so much especially when you think about the millions of tracks sold legally on the online stores. There's no ideal behind illegal file sharing, as I said it's just an evolution of home taping and if needed it should be used with much sense of responsibility. In the mid 90s renting CDs was legal in Italy, and that allowed me to experiment a lot, renting many albums I wouldn't have ever dared to buy, saving me from wasting money on much crap, and making me discover a few gems. For example I knew nothing about Steely Dan, they're totally outside the music I've ever listened, and from my mates' music too. But one night I heard a track on the radio, I thought "uhm, not bad, could be Prefab Sprout's uncle", but I wouldn't have bought anything... well, I rent their greatest hits and discovered their genius, became a fan and bought all the other records. I see more options in the future, they just need to be further developed. Napster is offering the chance, for a monthly fee, of bringing all the tracks on the online store on an enabled player. Unfortunately, in the age of the Internet, copyrights are regionally restricted, which is totally ridiculous. I can buy a real CD from a shop in Manchester, but I can't buy the same album in WMA DRM. And Napster is not in Italy yet. Anyway that's the way to go, people could do without illegal file sharing, except for the unreleased rarities. MSN lets you stream their whole store for 10 dollars, the problem is it's half empty, they miss half of the discographies of the most of the artists. Still, I believe that if record companies will really want to develop services like that, people will be able to hear loads of music, become more open minded, dare to experiment listening different stuff, becoming fans of more artists, and buying more records.