A Statement from Blunderer

mr blunder

punk changed my outlook on life

however why did fucking thatcher remain in power for 17? years. discuss

it didnt change the tory government

Blunderer wrote: For a genuine music "movement" to happen there are three ingredients required: A new music A new fashion A new drug There have been three genuine, groundbreaking, music cultures which have occured in the last 40 years: Hippy Punk Acid House Will there be another one? I like to think so. But if there is, it will not be us oldies involved. It will be the teenagers who rebel against all that has gone before.

About the ingredients I'd add politics, they often were part of the enviroment, except in Acid House. I think that some groundbreaking cultures must be added to your list: early Rock'n'Roll (rockabilly etc.), Beat, Mod, Folk, Prog (though these two often mixed with hippy), Reggae, Hard Rock, Electro, Disco, Metal, Hip Hop... We may not like the music of some of these cultures but they've been extremely important. No one can deny the importance of (choosing one for each genre) Elvis or Chuck Berry, The Beatles, The Who, Bob Dylan or Crosby Stills Nash And Young (Fairport Convention or Nick Drake in England), Yes or Genesis, Bob Marley, Led Zeppelin, Kraftwerk, Patrick Cowley or Donna Summer, Metallica, Public Enemy... In my own little indie world, the evolution brought to the post punk stream by the likes of Sonic Youth, Pixies and My Bloody Valentine (on the guitar side), New Order and Depeche Mode (on the synth pop side) are also extremely important. What's the huge paradox in the music history? When artists had analogue equipment, they were always inventing new sounds and new rhythms, new guitar pedals, new keyboards, new drum machines (I've read all the work Cowley put into creating the disco sequencers, it's unbelievable, a masterpiece of engineering). Now we would have much more chances of creating something new with all the digital tools, and yet artists use them just to emulate the old sounds. Guitars have never sounded safer, keyboards are virtually samples of sounds of decades ago. contemporary musicians = lazy bastards

PS: Punk didn't knock down the Tory government because the most of the punks were reacting against a bad Labour government, some of them were even conservative, the most were anarchists or really didn't care. Also young voters got used to separate the music of an artist from his political point of view, otherwise Red Wedge would have worked.

SPATS !!!

Al...Can you do some digging and perhaps find a picture..

These shoes lasted about 5 seconds !!

Hank Wiseass© wrote: For what it's worth

LCD Soundsystem Primal Scream The Juan Maclean Flaming Lips and Hot Chip

currently piss all over New Order

either live on record or both.

Hah hah.

With the exception of the Flaming Lips, not a single band that you mentioned up there would even exist if it was for New Order. Those bands are all New Orders babies.

Primal Scream is embarrassing rock and Roll garbage. They should stop thrying to impersonate the Rolling Stones.

Ive seen Juan Maclean, LCD Soundsystem, Flaming Lip, and Hopt Chip live.

They were all great...

I saw New Order in Chicago in 2005, and it was better than any of those bands.

Mainly because New Orer simply write better songs. They are brilliant songwriters.

By the way....

I am 24 years old, i live in Columbus Ohio, USA, and Ive been a New Order fan since I was 13.

I love them.

I know tons of other people my age all over the USA who love New Order. I know tons of people here in Columbus who love New order. I know people younger than me who love New Order.

They are brilliant, even they are are bad.

They have made me laugh and cry, they make beautiful music.

I think they are fucking relevant.

And for the record....

I love Barneys dad dancing, his whooping. So does my girlfriend.

I love that New Order dont try to be cool. They are simply themselves. Goofy, crazed humans who love beer, art, football, having a laugh, and they just happen to make brilliant, beautiful music.

I make music.

www.myspace.com/Zachery AllanStarkey

(blatant promotion I know).

I would not be making music if it wasnt for New Order.

I know tons of others who are the same way.

New Order ARE RELEVANT.

And I want them to make another record and show us youngsters just how fucking awesome they are.

Blunderer wrote: For a genuine music "movement" to happen there are three ingredients required:

A new music A new fashion A new drug

There have been three genuine, groundbreaking, music cultures which have occured in the last 40 years:

Hippy Punk Acid House

And nothing since.

All three scenes changed everything, musically and culturally.

Will there be another one? I like to think so. But if there is, it will not be us oldies involved. It will be the teenagers who rebel against all that has gone before.

i think mick has mentioned two of the following, but whether you like them or not they are important, groundbreaking musical cultures: rap and metal. rap has ushered in a completely new style of clothing (see phat farm, fubu, etc.) and is a complete cultural phenomenon; metal was, too. you can divide metal into what i call 'classic' metal and hair metal. though i'm no expert on metal, bands like black sabbath, led zeppelin and motorhead and, yes, even motley crue, influenced how people dressed and how other bands played.

so nothing since? i think you're forgetting quite a few, brother.

Two other irons to throw in the fire.....grunge and MTV.

R&B, as well.

and as much as i hate to say it: new country.

blunderer, i think you find hippie, punk and acid house groundbreaking because they were groundbreaking to you. however, while they might be important to most people on this board, to the general public none of these musical styles made a dent. some people were taken in by rap, others by the new sounds of country music (which is why nashville is the place to be once again) and others by metal. they would consider these styles groundbreaking.

Zachery Starkey wrote:

Hank Wiseass© wrote: For what it's worth

LCD Soundsystem Primal Scream The Juan Maclean Flaming Lips and Hot Chip

currently piss all over New Order

either live on record or both.

Hah hah.

With the exception of the Flaming Lips, not a single band that you mentioned up there would even exist if it was for New Order. Those bands are all New Orders babies.

Primal Scream is embarrassing rock and Roll garbage. They should stop thrying to impersonate the Rolling Stones.

Ive seen Juan Maclean, LCD Soundsystem, Flaming Lip, and Hopt Chip live.

They were all great...

I saw New Order in Chicago in 2005, and it was better than any of those bands.

Mainly because New Orer simply write better songs. They are brilliant songwriters.

By the way....

I am 24 years old, i live in Columbus Ohio, USA, and Ive been a New Order fan since I was 13.

I love them.

I know tons of other people my age all over the USA who love New Order. I know tons of people here in Columbus who love New order. I know people younger than me who love New Order.

They are brilliant, even they are are bad.

They have made me laugh and cry, they make beautiful music.

I think they are fucking relevant.

And for the record....

I love Barneys dad dancing, his whooping. So does my girlfriend.

I love that New Order dont try to be cool. They are simply themselves. Goofy, crazed humans who love beer, art, football, having a laugh, and they just happen to make brilliant, beautiful music.

I make music.

www.myspace.com/Zachery AllanStarkey

(blatant promotion I know).

I would not be making music if it wasnt for New Order.

I know tons of others who are the same way.

New Order ARE RELEVANT.

And I want them to make another record and show us youngsters just how fucking awesome they are.

I'm not sure what's so funny, the only difference I can see is that you still think they're as good as they were. I've also been a fan since I was 13/14, also. it just so happens I was that age in 1983. So I doubt I need a history lesson off you, sonny.

I doubt anyone I know even bothered to buy WFTSC, my nephew's your age and we share a lot in common musically, I bought him PC&L for his 18th birthday, he likes all the DFA stuff as well. I'm pretty sure he hasn't got it. When it came out I forwarded a few of the tracks to a few people who were old fans, none of them even wanted the complete album, free.

Ooh, so now you're giving other people's music away for free.

I'll probably get hammered for saying this but I've never, ever, ever heard a decent argument why it's ok to steal (yes, STEAL) music from online. I know it's an unfashionable opinion, but the truth is the truth.

I mean, an obscure, hard to find track here and there - no big deal. But an entire album?

FtotheDoubleOff wrote: Ooh, so now you're giving other people's music away for free.

I'll probably get hammered for saying this but I've never, ever, ever heard a decent argument why it's ok to steal (yes, STEAL) music from online. I know it's an unfashionable opinion, but the truth is the truth.

I mean, an obscure, hard to find track here and there - no big deal. But an entire album?

And Blunderbus wonders why record sales aren't as high as back in the good old days :\ohwell:

FtotheDoubleOff wrote: Ooh, so now you're giving other people's music away for free.

I'll probably get hammered for saying this but I've never, ever, ever heard a decent argument why it's ok to steal (yes, STEAL) music from online. I know it's an unfashionable opinion, but the truth is the truth.

I mean, an obscure, hard to find track here and there - no big deal. But an entire album?

I happen to own it on two formats. I think 90% of the regulars on here had it prior to release, as did they for Get Ready.

Hank Wiseass© wrote:

Zachery Starkey wrote:

Hank Wiseass© wrote: For what it's worth

LCD Soundsystem Primal Scream The Juan Maclean Flaming Lips and Hot Chip

currently piss all over New Order

either live on record or both.

Hah hah.

With the exception of the Flaming Lips, not a single band that you mentioned up there would even exist if it was for New Order. Those bands are all New Orders babies.

Primal Scream is embarrassing rock and Roll garbage. They should stop thrying to impersonate the Rolling Stones.

Ive seen Juan Maclean, LCD Soundsystem, Flaming Lip, and Hopt Chip live.

They were all great...

I saw New Order in Chicago in 2005, and it was better than any of those bands.

Mainly because New Orer simply write better songs. They are brilliant songwriters.

By the way....

I am 24 years old, i live in Columbus Ohio, USA, and Ive been a New Order fan since I was 13.

I love them.

I know tons of other people my age all over the USA who love New Order. I know tons of people here in Columbus who love New order. I know people younger than me who love New Order.

They are brilliant, even they are are bad.

They have made me laugh and cry, they make beautiful music.

I think they are fucking relevant.

And for the record....

I love Barneys dad dancing, his whooping. So does my girlfriend.

I love that New Order dont try to be cool. They are simply themselves. Goofy, crazed humans who love beer, art, football, having a laugh, and they just happen to make brilliant, beautiful music.

I make music.

www.myspace.com/Zachery AllanStarkey

(blatant promotion I know).

I would not be making music if it wasnt for New Order.

I know tons of others who are the same way.

New Order ARE RELEVANT.

And I want them to make another record and show us youngsters just how fucking awesome they are.

I'm not sure what's so funny, the only difference I can see is that you still think they're as good as they were. I've also been a fan since I was 13/14, also. it just so happens I was that age in 1983. So I doubt I need a history lesson off you, sonny.

I doubt anyone I know even bothered to buy WFTSC, my nephew's your age and we share a lot in common musically, I bought him PC&L for his 18th birthday, he likes all the DFA stuff as well. I'm pretty sure he hasn't got it. When it came out I forwarded a few of the tracks to a few people who were old fans, none of them even wanted the complete album, free.

Well, thats fair.

I actually know quite a few people who bought WFTSC. And the alt radio station here in Columbus played Krafty a ton, and they still play Krafty a ton. Jetstream and Guilt both got a lot of club play here in Columbus as well, and WFTSC actually got a lot of positive reviews in the local press.

I dont think that musically NO are as innovative as they used to be, no, but I still think that they write great songs. I really like a lot of the songs on WFTSC and Get Ready.

Live, I think in some ways New Order are a lot better than they were. Ive seen the old footage......they dont move, they jsut stand there. Id get bored. I love that Barney dances like a drunken ass. NO look silly when they play live nowdays, but they also look like they are having fun, and I know that that translated into the audience at the show I was at.

I will say that I am dissapointed that NO dont use electronics now as much as they used to, especially live, but I still rate them pretty highly.

I mean, Iggy Pop porlly isnt as good live now as he was 25 years ago, and I havent liked his past 5 records. But he is still Iggy Pop, he changed music, so he has my respect. Johnny Lydon may be a clown nowdays, but Ill alwasy respect the ground that he broke with the Sex Psitols and on the first 3 Public Image Ltd. records. New Order are in the same boat.

I like all of the DFA stuff as well. I especially like the Juan Maclean, that guy is awesome. I met him, and he mentioned that he loved New Order and liked thier new album.

I'd be interested to see what your nephew thinks of WFTSC. I actually think that WFTSC is a far better album than PCL.

Yeah, sacreliege aint it?

:)

FtotheDoubleOff wrote: Ooh, so now you're giving other people's music away for free. I'll probably get hammered for saying this but I've never, ever, ever heard a decent argument why it's ok to steal (yes, STEAL) music from online. I know it's an unfashionable opinion, but the truth is the truth. I mean, an obscure, hard to find track here and there - no big deal. But an entire album?

Look, Hank said he gave some of the tracks, hoping people would have liked them and bought the album. This is something I've made quite some times. I don't know how many tapes I did in the 90s to friends and friends of friends with my favourite music, including always at least 7 or 8 tracks of New Order and related bands, hoping that people would get into them. Now, I would even agree with you, but the subject is not so simplistic like it would seem. My brother-in-law is a professional musician, before the Internet and file sharing became so popular his band sold almost twice the records, but as I told him it's not like people would buy every record they're downloading. An average music consumer can buy two or three CDs a month, he won't ever buy the other 10 he downloads (I'm talking about people with an average income, not rich persons who can afford dozens of CD a month like I'd want to). And also, sometimes people download records of bands they are not too sure to like, then if they like the album they buy the following release. I saw this happening many times. The problem is when you download your favourite bands, that's really wrong, no one of us should ever download New Order because if we don't buy their records, who will do? Also this shows you really have no passion for them. But if you're really not too sure you want to spend that money on a whole album of a band you're just discovering, maybe you'll like so much the album you have downloaded that next time you'll buy their album, or even buy the album you just have downloaded (this happens less often, but still happens). Luckily, the Internet is offering a way to go beyond this huge problem. iTunes offers you the chance of downloading single songs from albums. This doesn't still solve the problem of the purchase of a whole album, but you can start by buying the tracks you like. On MySpace bands stream four songs, and even allow the download sometimes. That's a good sampler to decide whether you really like them or not. There's still one huge problem, which is the cost of the CDs. As much as you'll like some bands, you'll never be able to afford to buy them all. So what should people do? I think a mixed approach is the best option (always remembering illegal downloads are becoming increasingly dangerous, with people, when caught, fined thousands of dollars for a dozen of tracks). It's impossible to buy all the CDs you'd want, but if you don't buy any, you're a fookin bastard. If you buy two or three, you've given a fair amount to the music industry. And browse iTunes and MySpace, they're not perfect, but still rather useful.

So becuase you can't afford all the cd's you want, you should be able to steal them, because you wouldn't be buying them anyway?

I'll remember that next time I go to buy a pair of shoes - and help myself to five more pairs - because, hey! I can't afford them, so I wouldn't be buying them anyway.

I'm not attacking anyone on this board - I just love poking holes in arguments on this. I've met so many people that will ARGUE TO THE DEATH that downloading illegaly is ok, and are SHOCKED that anyone would be stupid enough to say otherwise.

(and for the few people you know that will go out and buy the album after downloading it - there are a few HUNDRED that don't. That's the whole point in downloading it, so you DONT HAVE TO pay for it.

It's like buying a DVD, watching the movie, then deciding you dont like it and asking for a refund.)

FtotheDoubleOff wrote: So becuase you can't afford all the cd's you want, you should be able to steal them, because you wouldn't be buying them anyway? I'll remember that next time I go to buy a pair of shoes - and help myself to five more pairs - because, hey! I can't afford them, so I wouldn't be buying them anyway. It's like buying a DVD, watching the movie, then deciding you dont like it and asking for a refund.)

Well at least you can rent DVDs. In Italy renting a new DVD costs about 3 dollars, even less if it's older than one or two years. Quite a different cost. Also, music fans have a passion which brings them to download, while once you have that couple of shoes for the season you're usually done. And you don't have 3 millions of people stealing shoes. For that matter, you don't even have people stealing CDs from the stores. As I said, the subject is not simplistic, unfortunately your reply is. Told you, I'd agree with you, in a black and white world. Legal or illegal, I'm all on the legal side (hey, my sister would be much richer if people didn't download the records of her husband!). But it's not that easy. Once again, a mixed behaviour, in this case, is quite fair. Let's say a person buys 30 CDs in a year. If he downloads 50 other albums I wouldn't ask him to wait two more years to legally purchase each of them, because in those two years other albums will be released in which he might be interested. Life is simply not long enough for all the music you might want to hear. For example if you become interested in the Rolling Stones you should spend two or three years only buying all their records (to the point of getting bored) and ignore releases by any other artist. Let's face complete legality is totally unreal. Even back in 1987, when I discovered the most of my favourite bands. I was 14 years old and my mother gave me 10 dollars a week. How on earth could I have bought all the records I heard that year? The Smiths, Depeche Mode, New Order, Prefab Sprout, Cocteau Twins, Pixies, and the list goes on. Of fookin course I had to get records taped from friends, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to hear all those albums, to buy all the following releases of those artists, and buy the CDs of the most of the records I had on illegal tapes. File sharing is just an evolution of home taping, if music is good enough to spark a passion people will continue to buy music as well, as they've always did. I think the main reason of the drop in record sales is the drop in quality. When my favourite bands (the same of the albums which were illegally taped to me, the albums that made me a fan) released new albums I just felt compelled to buy them, I used to run to the record shop on the day of release, but the bands which have emerged in the last 10 years... well, they can fookin wait, mate. I don't really feel like running to the record store to buy the fookin Arctic Monkeys. Actually, I don't even feel like wasting the time to download them, but you get the idea.

Of fookin course I had to get records taped from friends, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to hear all those albums, to buy all the following releases of those artists, and buy the CDs of the most of the records I had on illegal tapes.File sharing is just an evolution of home taping, if music is good enough to spark a passion people will continue to buy music as well, as they've always did.

Hits the nail on the head, Mick. Good post.

Thanks, but if you agree there must be something wrong...

Don't know about that; I never had to have friends give me mix tapes to have heard all the bands I wanted to hear and know if they were interesting enough to buy..radio, mtv, etc would give me a good enough idea, even underground alternative stuff not in heavy rotation.

Yeah, quality of music has been laughable for years. But downloading illegaly could contribute to this. It's obviously taking an enormous chunk of sales, so record companies will be more inclined to just go for the safe, quick bets with bands that have a homogenic sound in line with the other homogenic crap.

I'm not trying to shove COMPLETE LEGALITY ALWAYS on you or anyone. I'm just trying to convince others that might be reading this that think they're some kind of freedom fighters sticking it to the man because they're downloading everything they want.

FtotheDoubleOff wrote: I never had to have friends give me mix tapes to have heard all the bands I wanted to hear and know if they were interesting enough to buy..radio, mtv, etc would give me a good enough idea, even underground alternative stuff not in heavy rotation.
Yeah, quality of music has been laughable for years. But downloading illegaly could contribute to this. It's obviously taking an enormous chunk of sales, so record companies will be more inclined to just go for the safe, quick bets with bands that have a homogenic sound in line with the other homogenic crap. I'm just trying to convince others that might be reading this that think they're some kind of freedom fighters sticking it to the man because they're downloading everything they want.

More than a question of knowing whether I wanted an album or not, it was a matter of having the money to buy them all. If I bought all the records I heard in 1987, I'd have finished many years later and I wouldn't have had the money to buy Loveless by My Bloody Valentine. What you say about the record companies is true, they actually drop many bands keeping the safer bets, for this reason file sharing is not a battle in favour of anyone, if music is poorer quality will be poorer, but it's also true a lot of bands are emerging with crap music and putting them on the NME cover doesn't guarantee sales, people can be cheated, but not always. I'd like to know the certain figures of the drop in sales though, sometimes record companies paint apocalyptic scenes, but I read 13% in 10 years on a reliable Italian site, that's not so much especially when you think about the millions of tracks sold legally on the online stores. There's no ideal behind illegal file sharing, as I said it's just an evolution of home taping and if needed it should be used with much sense of responsibility. In the mid 90s renting CDs was legal in Italy, and that allowed me to experiment a lot, renting many albums I wouldn't have ever dared to buy, saving me from wasting money on much crap, and making me discover a few gems. For example I knew nothing about Steely Dan, they're totally outside the music I've ever listened, and from my mates' music too. But one night I heard a track on the radio, I thought "uhm, not bad, could be Prefab Sprout's uncle", but I wouldn't have bought anything... well, I rent their greatest hits and discovered their genius, became a fan and bought all the other records. I see more options in the future, they just need to be further developed. Napster is offering the chance, for a monthly fee, of bringing all the tracks on the online store on an enabled player. Unfortunately, in the age of the Internet, copyrights are regionally restricted, which is totally ridiculous. I can buy a real CD from a shop in Manchester, but I can't buy the same album in WMA DRM. And Napster is not in Italy yet. Anyway that's the way to go, people could do without illegal file sharing, except for the unreleased rarities. MSN lets you stream their whole store for 10 dollars, the problem is it's half empty, they miss half of the discographies of the most of the artists. Still, I believe that if record companies will really want to develop services like that, people will be able to hear loads of music, become more open minded, dare to experiment listening different stuff, becoming fans of more artists, and buying more records.