NO or JD?

this has been done before, but......

After listening to JD and NO in a mixed random mode, I realized how amazing it is that fans of JD love NO (and visa versa). Other than Hooky's bass lines, they are polar opposites.

JD is dark and sullen, as NO is happy and dancy JD has amazing lyrics; NO has lyrics that are JD was about creating music; NO was in creating the Hacienda

But seriously I find it amazing that listeners love both bands equally.

So where do you stand?

Both.

Songs written by both bands feel like they've come from the heavens.

New Order especially when they don't play Joy Division songs live :D

I was a Joy Division fan first and foremost. Then New Order came along, and to all intents and purposes were a different and separate band, playing different music. While it's true that I was automatically a fan because they'd been Joy Division, it helped that I liked the music they played.

I've always wished that they would keep the JD live stuff to a minimum, around the mid 80s you occasionally got LWTUA or Atmosphere as a treat, but since 98 it has been several songs every gig, and they lessen the NO live experience for me, as much as I love the original songs they ain't right the way NO do them.

My iPod contains nothing but JD and NO at the moment (that isn't always the case!) as I am learning guitar parts and timings etc on several songs for Digital to start playing. I genuinely have no preference as to what comes on, nothing gets skipped. For example, the walk from Charing Cross to Lambeth Bridge this morning heard Weirdo, Digital, LWTUA, Every Little Counts, New Dawn Fades and Transmission had just started when I walked in the office. Another day it might be most of Get Ready or WFTSC, it makes no difference to me.

I live NO.But JD every time.

I'm an original JD fan as well, and have grown to love New Order just as much. The main difference for me being that I couldn't listen to JD every day, but NO gets played all the time. More diverse material, and definitely more cheerful. If pushed to make a choice it would have to be NO, but in case of a fire I'll just run!

joy division.

day in day out.

Jeffari-al-Texani wrote: I'd chuck the JD stuff into the fire...

still remember how pissed off I was at Wembley when the boys trotted out all those JD songs at the beginning...I thought to myself...If I've come all the way to London for a fucking Joy Division set, I'll do my fucking head in...

I think that was excellent actually. Over and done with early on

Geri wrote:

Jeffari-al-Texani wrote: I'd chuck the JD stuff into the fire...

still remember how pissed off I was at Wembley when the boys trotted out all those JD songs at the beginning...I thought to myself...If I've come all the way to London for a fucking Joy Division set, I'll do my fucking head in...

I think that was excellent actually. Over and done with early on

IMO the Wembley gig was excellent - a pretty good set/performance all round. Cheers!

Geri wrote:

Jeffari-al-Texani wrote: I'd chuck the JD stuff into the fire...

still remember how pissed off I was at Wembley when the boys trotted out all those JD songs at the beginning...I thought to myself...If I've come all the way to London for a fucking Joy Division set, I'll do my fucking head in...

I think that was excellent actually. Over and done with early on

That's 20 minutes of my life lost. I'm not a JD fan; they’re alright in some kinda dark and despairing way but no thanks it’s not exactly my cuppa. I’ve never cared for Ian Curtis much either. Hero my arse. A right twat if you ask me. Anyone who commits suicide is a coward. End of. There's my vote for WHOOPS and COME ONs in LWTUA

Where's the option for calling out the fire brigade

I don't own any vinyl... but I definitely prefer NO over JD probably because I found/rediscovered NO via Electronic.... And No I don't like the pet shop boys

NObabe wrote:

Anyone who commits suicide is a coward. End of.

I disagree strongly, one of the bravest people I knew committed suicide. R.I.P.

They both suck, just waste my life away on NOOL for complete bollocks

I'd chuck the JD stuff into the fire...

still remember how pissed off I was at Wembley when the boys trotted out all those JD songs at the beginning...I thought to myself...If I've come all the way to London for a fucking Joy Division set, I'll do my fucking head in...

I thought that was just me!

I've never been so pleased to hear WFTSC

Have gone for N.O. ,purely on the weight of material,but it's a fookin' hard choice,&,quite frankly,not a position I ever want to be in

Anyway,I'd just buy it again,or wait for the remasters to come out,problem solved:D

marcus mee wrote:

I'd chuck the JD stuff into the fire...

still remember how pissed off I was at Wembley when the boys trotted out all those JD songs at the beginning...I thought to myself...If I've come all the way to London for a fucking Joy Division set, I'll do my fucking head in...

I thought that was just me!

I've never been so pleased to hear WFTSC

me too

Geri wrote: I'm an original JD fan as well, and have grown to love New Order just as much. The main difference for me being that I couldn't listen to JD every day, but NO gets played all the time. More diverse material, and definitely more cheerful. If pushed to make a choice it would have to be NO, but in case of a fire I'll just run!

You're post hits the nail on the head for me. My personal preference is NO and after seeing/hearing True Faith in '87 and being totally blown away by what they were doing, the Dance music they were influencing and wanting to know as much about them as I could. However I also like JD and I appreciate the differences between JD's post-punk rock orientated past just as much as the electronic/Dance music influences which typified much of what NO has done from Temptation onwards. It also depends what mood you're in as well - if you're feeling upbeat and up for a party then you'd warm more to NO's dancier tunes but if you're feeling more reflective and in more of a rockier mood then JD ticks the boxes. Also NO didn't leave JD's rock/post punk roots entirely and there are traces of the JD sound present in their more rocker tracks. Overall I'd consider Atmosphere, She's Lost Control, Transmission, LWTUA, Day Of The Lords, Insight, Dead Souls, Digital etc. just as good as TPK, True Faith, Blue Monday, Confusion, Thieves Like Us, BLT, State Of The Nation, Regret, Ceremony, Fine Time, Temptation, Crystal, WFTSC, Guilt Is A Useless Emotion, Krafty, Turn etc. in the final analysis! Cheers!

I would try and get the New Order stuff over the Joy Division. The actual order would be my two dogs, my cat; my computer and then the New Order CD's.

Psy

I'm glad to see my team are winning.

How come there's no choice here for U2?

I know I'm taking bait when I see a phrase like "JD was about creating music; NO was in [sic] creating the Hacienda". But anyway.

I love JD but it's got to be NO. I think the OP's characterization of NO as insubstantial dance band versus quite misses the point. JD's approach was to make something beautiful from the darkness (and they do). NO (well, pre-1990) instead combine multiple feelings and sensations, pleasurable and painful, into a single song, which is what makes their music so lasting and fascinating to me.

A song like The Perfect Kiss (12" version), if you really listen to it, isn't made by a band that doesn't care about "creating music". On the surface, sure, it's dancey, but it's got incredible depth of feeling in both the lyrics and the music (which is all the more apparent in the video). It's a sad melody with dark, oblique, lyrics married to an insistent beat and excting, pleasurable cadences. It's hard for me to explain, but that to me is the genius of New Order, the presence of the joy and sadness and longing and fulfillment embedded in the music. I realize not everyone's ears are going to be attuned to it, but there's real emotional richness there.

As a lyricist, I think Ian's lyrics are very poetic, but I think that Barney's are, in their own way, equally thoughtful, at least through True Faith. (Technique has its moments too, but it is inconsistent -- after that, the writing became much more obvious and literal, as well as grammatically awkward -- it's impossible to imagine "Turn My Way" or "Hey Now What You Doing" coming from 80's New Order.)

I think NO's lyrics are in some ways more abstract than JD's, but rather than that making them meaningless, to me that makes them powerful -- I can't always get words around what he's singing about, but I can feel it. To me, that's real art. (My girlfriend will occasionally ask me "what's this song about"? And I always shrug and say "I dunno, but I can feel what it's about."

Anyway, they're two different bands, really; it's not hard for me to imagine a Joy Division fan liking New Order any more than it is for me to imagine them liking some other band. There doesn't have to be an implicit comparison of the two.

Shellshocker wrote: How come there's no choice here for U2?

Bad Shellshocker; Bad

Geri wrote: I'm an original JD fan as well, and have grown to love New Order just as much. The main difference for me being that I couldn't listen to JD every day, but NO gets played all the time. More diverse material, and definitely more cheerful. If pushed to make a choice it would have to be NO, but in case of a fire I'll just run!

Same here :)

Ivan X wrote: NO (well, pre-1990) instead combine multiple feelings and sensations, pleasurable and painful, into a single song, which is what makes their music so lasting and fascinating to me.

I think NO's lyrics are in some ways more abstract than JD's, but rather than that making them meaningless, to me that makes them powerful -- I can't always get words around what he's singing about, but I can feel it. To me, that's real art. (My girlfriend will occasionally ask me "what's this song about"? And I always shrug and say "I dunno, but I can feel what it's about."

Good call.

i grew up on joy division and the transition into new order stuff happened because of the obvious. They were also the times we lived. not a retrospective vinyl collection. late 70s in manchester were bleak and then better things happened. jd no straddled that and showed a way. no choosing between.

new order everytime for me,i don't like joy division in the slightest and believe me i've tried and tried with their albums!i hate it at gigs when they play jd stuff,it seems to spoil the flow and bring people(admittedly not everyone) down

I'm straddling the fence here.

I'd risk every limb for BOTH. End of.

They're the same band though, they've just changed as they've got older. It's not like they did New Dawn Fades one day and bloody Jetstream the next is it? It's been a gradual shift through the years. People stereotype JD as doom and gloom and NO as disco froth but you can hear it's the same band that did LWTUA and Temptation, Atmosphere and Elegia, Insight and Leave Me Alone, Decades and Your Silent Face and so on.

I personally prefer the earlier stuff (JD & NO pre-85) as I think that up until 85 they were still making music directly from the heart and soul. After that, they became more 'professional' and the songs started to feel a little bit hollow.

minx wrote , i disagree one off the strongest people i know commited suicide.r.i.p.

with minx on this no babe.

no ones a coward that does that,,no one.

you will never believe me when i tell you what you mean to me...x.

mmmmmmm, love no to bits,but......................

my all time fave songs are from jd,especially the version of lwtua on the peel sessions,so......

a tie for me i think.....

I've been looking into 3 hour specced fireproof safes for this very reason.

I'd grab my NO collection because there's more to it and took me longer to build up as opposed to my JD stash. It wouldn't be necessarily the sentiment driving my rescuing as much as the monetary involvement.

Though I admit I'd miss that red tinged Closer LP, but them's the breaks. :evil:

I suppose I'd have to just ignore their side project releases since there wasn't a choice for that.

melly wrote: I suppose I'd have to just ignore their side project releases since there wasn't a choice for that.

Sorry about that, I'll be sure to include them for the miss's next time 'round.

It's gotta be New Order for me - all day long, morning, night and day. But I admit there may be a temptation to have a krafty look around and pick up a bit of Joy Division as well - it would depend how smokey the atmosphere was getting.

These house fires can be pretty brutal and take hold sooner than you think and you end up running round & round and getting hurt in all the confusion. So I have doubts even here and could come to regret it!

After that it would be case of let's go, time to face up, turn and run all the way to the bottom of the street waiting for the fire brigade to turn up.

I think the ratio of new order song titles to joy division titles above confirms my preference for new order.

The him wrote: It's gotta be New Order for me - all day long, morning, night and day. But I admit there may be a temptation to have a krafty look around and pick up a bit of Joy Division as well - it would depend how smokey the atmosphere was getting.

These house fires can be pretty brutal and take hold sooner than you think and you end up running round & round and getting hurt in all the confusion. So I have doubts even here and could come to regret it!

After that it would be case of let's go, time to face up, turn and run all the way to the bottom of the street waiting for the fire brigade to turn up.

I think the ratio of new order song titles to joy division titles above confirms my preference for new order.

Sorry, I've just realised I could have said "waiting for the siren's call" instead of "waiting for the fire brigade to turn up"!

temptation

Both for me

At the begining i didn`t want No play JD songs live....but it has become to be so great.

79 order wrote: minx wrote , i disagree one off the strongest people i know commited suicide.r.i.p.

with minx on this no babe.

no ones a coward that does that,,no one.

you will never believe me when i tell you what you mean to me...x.

no one??? So Hitler was a brave brave man for doing himself in as opposed to facing the music for his actions?

sorry...but it can be the coward's way out....depends on the situation I guess... bad guess m8

my comments could be your theme.

one day im going to get the hang of this copy and paste lark,,, see jeffari als comeents for the missing bits!

confussion

JD or NO. Think they' re both Pretty Good. Only wastin' my Life away Talking Bollocks to read the takes of England and Tours through the 80's. Also why WFTSC though Formula. Compared to most every other Band is still Easily soaked in Magic.

lee stephens wrote: new order everytime for me,i don't like joy division in the slightest and believe me i've tried and tried with their albums!i hate it at gigs when they play jd stuff,it seems to spoil the flow and bring people(admittedly not everyone) down

Genuinely can't see how it's possible to try to like a Certain Band. Not specifically JD here. Or a Certain type of Music. Basics to listening really seems to be a Cut- Dry. Like it, Enjoy or not. To this question. Cheating is to take Substance JD and Substance '87 NO. Or a more complete Joy Division Before and After. Though think B& After is only issued on CD.

14 K wrote: JD or NO. Think they' re both Pretty Good. Only wastin' my Life away Talking Bollocks to read that takes of England through the 80's. Also why WFTSC though Formula. Compared to most every other Band is still Easily soaked in Magic.

lee stephens wrote: new order everytime for me,i don't like joy division in the slightest and believe me i've tried and tried with their albums!i hate it at gigs when they play jd stuff,it seems to spoil the flow and bring people(admittedly not everyone) down

Genuinely can't see how it's possible to try to like a Certain Band. Not specifically JD here. Or a Certain type of Music. Basics to listening really seems to be a Cut- Dry. Like it, Enjoy or no. To this question. Cheating is to take Substance JD and Substance '87 NO. Or a more complete Joy Division Before and After. Though think B& After is only issued on CD. Don't see JD as Dark an Sullen. Don't take New Order to be all Lightweight and Naive either.

what did you just say?

octant wrote: what did you just said?

Eh.

14 K wrote:

octant wrote: what did you just said?

Eh.

got interrupted while writing that post, and the grammar showed. I admire your form even though i don't understand half of what you say.

Well I'd rescue my New Order records first and most of all. There is some reasonably rare stuff there. Only two or three on my JD records are worth rescuing as they are early FACOZ.

One day I will get one of those old fridges converted into a fire proof safe for my collection.

The him wrote:

The him wrote: It's gotta be New Order for me - all day long, morning, night and day. But I admit there may be a temptation to have a krafty look around and pick up a bit of Joy Division as well - it would depend how smokey the atmosphere was getting.

These house fires can be pretty brutal and take hold sooner than you think and you end up running round & round and getting hurt in all the confusion. So I have doubts even here and could come to regret it!

After that it would be case of let's go, time to face up, turn and run all the way to the bottom of the street waiting for the fire brigade to turn up.

I think the ratio of new order song titles to joy division titles above confirms my preference for new order.

Sorry, I've just realised I could have said "waiting for the siren's call" instead of "waiting for the fire brigade to turn up"!

Another nominee for Post of the Year 2007.

Originally a JD-only fan, I've grown into NO's music the past few years. Anyway, they're the same band. NO is a natural evolution of JD.

mrgreen71 wrote: Originally a JD-only fan, I've grown into NO's music the past few years. Anyway, they're the same band. NO is a natural evolution of JD.

I'm not sure that NO would have been NO if Ian didn't commit suicide. I just don't see it, so I guess I don't think it is the natural progression for them.

EdelBrock wrote:

I'm not sure that NO would have been NO if Ian didn't commit suicide. I just don't see it, so I guess I don't think it is the natural progression for them.

Ian was the one who introduced them to Kraftwerk. And his favourite album was Bowie's Low. He would have been flinging himself around to D.I.S.C.O in no time.

EdelBrock wrote:

mrgreen71 wrote: Originally a JD-only fan, I've grown into NO's music the past few years. Anyway, they're the same band. NO is a natural evolution of JD.

I'm not sure that NO would have been NO if Ian didn't commit suicide. I just don't see it, so I guess I don't think it is the natural progression for them.

See isolation and atmosphere.

I'm a long time Joy Division fan (About 2 years, long considering I'm only 16 lol) And only just got Singles, Substance and Movement by New Order...so far Joy Division blows it all out of the water :)

welcome rikki.new ORDER FOR ME though!

Geri wrote:

Jeffari-al-Texani wrote: I'd chuck the JD stuff into the fire...

still remember how pissed off I was at Wembley when the boys trotted out all those JD songs at the beginning...I thought to myself...If I've come all the way to London for a fucking Joy Division set, I'll do my fucking head in...

I think that was excellent actually. Over and done with early on

I loved it too! Was one of my favourite gigs - a bit different to the others. I liked it.

NO, no question, even though there's a bit more to carry, it'd be good for motivating me to do something, a few dance beats and all that, I think if the house was on fire and I took all the JD stuff outside I'd stick on "The Eternal" and get all reflective, which is no help at all really

I've grown to love the Joy Division stuff over the years but I doubt I would have gotten in to the band in the first place based solely on the pre New Order stuff. It just wasn't the type of music I would have listened to when I was a young girlie.

New Order first and foremost for me

New Order

Tough question, JD fan first which also helped to educate me in all other forms of music that you'd never listen to without such influences and with the help of John Peel and the Whistle Test. NO was a natural progression with its own infleuence's and once you fight your way through the 60% crap produced (the last 17 yrs bar a few gems)they have some true classics that no other band can or will ever emulate or dream of producing. On a seperate note, I defie anyone to listen to closer and not be touched...but NO playing JD live....shite, Barney can not do the songs the justice they diserve. NO are simply one of the best bands ever I just wish they'd play a gig that was just pre 90's instead of the usual set list played almost repeatedly of late.

octant wrote:

14 K wrote:

octant wrote: what did you just said?

Eh.

got interrupted while writing

Distrac.. Just that I think Both bands have Magic soaking their Tunes. Hard to choose. 'Got into both Bands a little later than some and was not Overseas in the 80s. Great to hear about some of it, here on NOOL. Who' d have thought.

Big Black wrote:

EdelBrock wrote:

I'm not sure that NO would have been NO if Ian didn't commit suicide. I just don't see it, so I guess I don't think it is the natural progression for them.

Ian was the one who introduced them to Kraftwerk. And his favourite album was Bowie's Low. He would have been flinging himself around to D.I.S.C.O in no time.

octant wrote: See isolation and atmosphere.

I could possibly hear it musically.....however, I just can't see Ian's voice becoming chiper and naive sounding, like Bernard's. The voice creates the mood, and I don't see Ian in a band with dance music like NO.

First inclination, as one who was aware of JD when they were existence, would be JD. The effect of their two studio albums on me was complete once I heard them, though it was hard to explain the appeal of them to others in Oregon at the time, I'll bet there weren't more than 50 people in the entire state who knew about them then.

EdelBrock wrote:

I could possibly hear it musically.....however, I just can't see Ian's voice becoming chiper and naive sounding, like Bernard's. The voice creates the mood, and I don't see Ian in a band with dance music like NO.

Listen to early A Certain Ratio. It fits well there.

EdelBrock wrote:

I could possibly hear it musically.....however, I just can't see Ian's voice becoming chiper and naive sounding, like Bernard's. The voice creates the mood, and I don't see Ian in a band with dance music like NO.

Simple, all they needed to do was change the varispeed settings, and they'd have had a chipmunk on speed in no time!

One of Alvin and the chipmucks huh?

Again, I stand corrected.:D

i like jd more than no. but listen to both..

Joy Division. I like most of new order's songs but i like everything made by joy division.

The only Joy Division item I own is Heart and soul, but I'd still be scooping up the NO collection first.

Joy Division

From a purely materialistic viewpoint I would save my Joy Division vinly which I could later flog on ebay and buy a tent in which to live.

As great as Joy Division is, the dancefloor songs of New Order are more my style