How Good A Guitarist Is Barney?

Of course, playing guitar for more than 30 years makes you one hell of a guitarist. But then, for Bernard Sumner, it doesn’t show in New Order’s type of music.

Red Hot Chili Peppers guitarist John Frusciante (RHCP from 1988 – 1992; 2002 to present) has noted in several interviews that Sumner is his all-time favorite guitarist. Honestly, I’m quite surprised with this statement, considering there are lots of guitarist who can… you know what I mean.

So how good is good? Where would you rank Sumner among the all-time greats? Also, if you can contribute links/videos where Sumner made a guitar solo, it would be very much appreciated.

Thanks, indeed*!*

Guitar playing isn't all about solos, contrary to popular opinion. Indeed, most of Barney's solos are simple and repetitive.

The mark of a good guitarist for me is someone who has timing (and Barney is pretty much faultless on this) and who can innovate. You only have to listen to most JD stuff to hear what he was about. Sure, there is less guitar stuff on New Order material, but what there is is simple and effective. He's come up with some great riffs over the years, but because the bass has dominated NO melodies, you tend not to appreciate the guitar parts so much. Take Age of Consent for example, or Sooner Than You Think, or Sunrise, all great guitar parts that aren't necessarily at the forefront of the song but which make a massive contribution.

Johnny Marr always said that Bernard was a better guitarist than most and that it took Bernard a lot of convincing about this

He is not even the best guitarist in New Order - no not Gillian either.

John whatsisname from the Chilli Peppers happens to rate him beacause he is a big JD fan.

For me , one of the downsides of JD's demise was Bernard's guitar playing becoming a bit part.

My son who is into metal doesn't think much of Bernard either as a singer or musician. ('talentless' was his quote and I have started to agree)

Im afraid I dont really rate barney as a good guitarist. Yes he is simple and effective, and within the constraints of JD / NO it works really well, but hes no Slash, Edge, Townshend or Van Halen.

darran clarke wrote: Im afraid I dont really rate barney as a good guitarist. Yes he is simple and effective, and within the constraints of JD / NO it works really well, but hes no Slash, Edge, Townshend or Van Halen.

And thank the stars for that.

Barney's guitar parts are excellent. Think Turn My Way, the Crystal intro, Regret ... Primitive Notion, Out of Control, the guitar break on Krafty ... for me his guitar playing has come to the fore on recent albums.

I'm no muso at all, but I love that kind of scratchy slashing style he has - it works perfectly with Hook and Morris.

Cheers

back in the day my dad said he'd seen barney do some pretty amazing stuff

but to answer the question, i don't know.

A bit like his singing. Can be brilliant one minute and awful the next.

Take the Glastonbury 87 CD as an example. His choppy guitar chords on TBTHOG are sublime, powerful and have great timing. But for Temptation he seems to make a comlete hash of it, the guitar even sounds out of tune (which might be the reason).

I totally disagree with the metalheads who say he's no good though. I think he's got simple riffs down to a fine art and his underplayed style suits NO (more so the studio stuff to the live stuff). Technique has brilliant catchy guitar riffs coming out of its ears (Run, Loveless, All The Way, Guilty Partner, Dream Attack).

I just think when it comes to playing live maybe he lacks belief in his own talents. Maybe im wrong. Thats just my measily take on it.

Edge? Van Halen??

My next comments on this matter were originally going to be put in a completely separate post, but I've now decided to put them in here. Barney has done some good stuff, granted, but I have my suspicions about how much was actually his playing on Republic given that he always mimes the intro to Regret at live gigs and because David Rhodes, a pretty good guitarist from Peter Gabriel's entourage, was credited as a guest musician on that album. Perhaps Stephen Hague felt Barney's playing wasn't good enough and concentrated more on Barney's vocals leaving David Rhodes to do the more intricate guitar stuff(could be why Barney always complained about trying to make the chord shapes on his guitar for Everyone Everywhere).

I think he is severely under-rated. Especially considering when the type of music they play isn't really guitar driven. A lot of his JD stuff is simply haunting with the effects placed on the guitar and the musical cues.

He's not going to go out there and wow you like rock bands a la Muse, but if I was to describe his guitar playing it would be with the word "beautiful." Take a look at The Perfect Kiss video when Hooky is raping the bass at the end. Barney jumps in perfectly with his guitar part. Same with his guitar playing on Tempation.

He's done too many drugs for his live performances to be used as "proof" of his playing prowess, but bum notes, sloppy playing, and all, the live tempation track on Retro makes me play air guitar every single time.

To me, "good" means expressive, and Barney's guitar playing is that, expressive of himself.

I don't need a Van Halen/Hendrix guitar technique virtuoso to enjoy music. That stuff bores me to tears.

There is a way I tell a good guitarist from any other. If I'm listening to music and feel the desire to stop what I'm doing to concentrate on the guitar playing, then THAT'S a good guitarist. Barney definately does that for me.

Also what I like is that since it is so underplayed, I can't wait to hear another riff, and lie in anticipation...Van Halen/Slash bore me because there is no anticipation. There right in yer face saying "look at me, I'm so good!"...they're trying WAAAY too hard be like Hendrix....and Van Halen and Slash are NO Hendrix.

Van Halen is a good guitarist (not my cuppa tea) but why do so many say Slash is??? He's overrated, kinda like the Edge is....

Someone here mentioned Pete Townshend as being a really great guitarist, but if you look at the sixties big wigs, Townshend for quite a while was your bedroom player's guitarist: aggressive strumming and simple, effective leads. I would place Bernard's melodic playing between early Townshend (think 'Substitute') and early George Harrison (see solo on the 'Baby It's You' cover off of Please Please Me), with Ron Asheton and the Chic guitarist representing his more rhythm-oriented influences. I cannot imagine several songs without Bernard's primitive yet beautiful playing. Disorder, Transmission, Colony, Ceremony, Temptation, AOC, The Village, Leave Me Alone, Love Vigilantes (a la 'Baby It's You' to these ears), have guitar riffs that stick with you from the first listen, and they are just a few that come to mind.

Hey i wish he played like Slash , The Edge , Townshend .They are ace they are

I often think his guitar work was much better in Joy Division

But yeah , yer can't argue with the stuff he plays on Sunrise , Sooner Than You Think , Love Vigilantes

ShedJacker wrote: I often think his guitar work was much better in Joy Division

totally agree

I do believe that he doesn't have to be a Joe Satriani or Steve Vai to be a good guitarist, although of course, these two are superb guitarist (and are good instuctors too! Check out their list of students). A good plucking will do.

Anyway, I like Barney's guitar work in Leave Me Alone

Indeed*!*

Yeah Leave Me Alone is another great one.Crystal intro too

Barney plays within his limitations and that makes him exciting.

It's important to note that there are plenty of musicians out there who would say that Barney, Hooky and Steve overplay because they use more than rudimentary chord shapes/melodic progressions. In reality technique is an asset in any artistic field, because without a practised hand ones creativity can be limited by lack of ability, B.B. King is a fabulous guitarist, has been known to indulge in a solo and has as much passion and soul as any rock musician.

There is of course a limit at which point technique for its own sake replaces artistic expression of 'the soul' (for lack of a more specific term) and I believe that you can find that in the form of the likes of Vai and Satriani, whose 'songs' are really just showcases for their technical proficiency. In rock, soloing as employed by the likes of Van Halen and Guns N Roses though the technical side and the soloing is not simply soulless note-spewing. The song remains in place, but the solo is added as a form of flavouring for the song and is sometimes even a highlight (Sweet Child O Mine and Jump spring immediately to mind).

Let's not kid ourselves that the punk/post-punk antipathy toward technique was motivated entirely by a sense of 'heart'. Some of the loudest voices in that particular campaign were the voices of people who simply couldn't play, and thus dismissed anybody who could. Barney's playing style (especially in JD) is actually atypical of the era, in that parts of his work actually resemble solos, and so he does not fit the punk/post-punk archetype: He's too good!

All art requires some semblance of technique. The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is one enormous technical flourish, yet it remains one of the masterpieces of human artistic achievement. Likewise, do you think that any old cunt who picked up a chisel could then have sculpted Michelangelo's David? Beethoven was a piano virtuoso and his work is staggeringly technical, but the emotion contained therein is unparalleled by anything being released today. That's not to say that guitar soloing is on that level, obviously! However, to assume that the demonstration of technical ability must be inherently lacking in 'heart and soul' is naive and simply a by-product of propaganda.

Well said and well done Big Black!

Indeed*!*

Blimey Owens, you been on the brain training?

Listen to Failures.

Sub-Cultured*!* wrote: Of course, playing guitar for more than 30 years makes you one hell of a guitarist. But then, for Bernard Sumner, it doesn’t show in New Order’s type of music.

Red Hot Chili Peppers guitarist John Frusciante (RHCP from 1988 – 1992; 2002 to present) has noted in several interviews that Sumner is his all-time favorite guitarist. Honestly, I’m quite surprised with this statement, considering there are lots of guitarist who can… you know what I mean.

So how good is good? Where would you rank Sumner among the all-time greats? Also, if you can contribute links/videos where Sumner made a guitar solo, it would be very much appreciated.

Thanks, indeed*!*

he's descently THAT DAMN Good!

Big Black wrote: Barney plays within his limitations and that makes him exciting.

It's important to note that there are plenty of musicians out there who would say that Barney, Hooky and Steve overplay because they use more than rudimentary chord shapes/melodic progressions. In reality technique is an asset in any artistic field, because without a practised hand ones creativity can be limited by lack of ability, B.B. King is a fabulous guitarist, has been known to indulge in a solo and has as much passion and soul as any rock musician.

There is of course a limit at which point technique for its own sake replaces artistic expression of 'the soul' (for lack of a more specific term) and I believe that you can find that in the form of the likes of Vai and Satriani, whose 'songs' are really just showcases for their technical proficiency. In rock, soloing as employed by the likes of Van Halen and Guns N Roses though the technical side and the soloing is not simply soulless note-spewing. The song remains in place, but the solo is added as a form of flavouring for the song and is sometimes even a highlight (Sweet Child O Mine and Jump spring immediately to mind).

Let's not kid ourselves that the punk/post-punk antipathy toward technique was motivated entirely by a sense of 'heart'. Some of the loudest voices in that particular campaign were the voices of people who simply couldn't play, and thus dismissed anybody who could. Barney's playing style (especially in JD) is actually atypical of the era, in that parts of his work actually resemble solos, and so he does not fit the punk/post-punk archetype: He's too good!

All art requires some semblance of technique. The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is one enormous technical flourish, yet it remains one of the masterpieces of human artistic achievement. Likewise, do you think that any old cunt who picked up a chisel could then have sculpted Michelangelo's David? Beethoven was a piano virtuoso and his work is staggeringly technical, but the emotion contained therein is unparalleled by anything being released today. That's not to say that guitar soloing is on that level, obviously! However, to assume that the demonstration of technical ability must be inherently lacking in 'heart and soul' is naive and simply a by-product of propaganda.

A good post sir.

nmc wrote: To me, "good" means expressive, and Barney's guitar playing is that, expressive of himself.

I don't need a Van Halen/Hendrix guitar technique virtuoso to enjoy music. That stuff bores me to tears.

I was gonna that.

Owens post is bang on, too.

Barney himself said that he didn't want to get technically better, because that's not punk. Or something.

That's the excuse I use as well

He, like Hooky and Steve, redefined the way we regard their respective instruments. The three of them were incredibly influential in JD particularly, I mean how many other bands appeared at the time to be quite obviously under their influence, John Peel used to say at the time that a large proportion of demos he received were very JD-like.

However I do know that being influential is different thing to playing ability, how many of us can figure out a JD riff in comparison to say the guitar parts for 'This Charming Man'. The beauty with JD/NO is the simplicity.

So, technically good - maybe? Influential - oh yes! Inspirational - definitely!

Mark Knopfler, Erik Clapton, Steve Vai and even Willie Nelson, I think you could use them to make a comparison and say Barney stinks. But The Edge? Slash? These aren't even names!

I don't know why The Edge and Slash is in this list. Just because Slash made a guitar solo outside the small church outside of nowhere in November Rain, or made the plucking intro for Sweet Child O' Mine (I knew a lot of guitar beginners who did that), or smokes the entire gig with his hair covering his face does not make him one of the all-time greats.

When it comes to glam rock, guitarists Nuno Bettencourt of Extreme (More Than Words) and Paul Gilbert of Mr. Big (To Be With You) tops everyone else

Indeed*!*

Jeeez..

some seriously cheesy guitarists being name-checked here.

Sub-Cultured*!* wrote: I don't know why The Edge and Slash is in this list. Just because Slash made a guitar solo outside the small church outside of nowhere in November Rain, or made the plucking intro for Sweet Child O' Mine (I knew a lot of guitar beginners who did that), or smokes the entire gig with his hair covering his face does not make him one of the all-time greats.

Listen to Appetite for Destruction. Then try telling me Slash is crap. He is also a great rhythm guitarist as demonstrated on Right Next Door to Hell and Dust N Bones.

The Edge relies too heavily on pedal effects but listen to the first U2 album Boy. It shows that he was still a capable guitarist.

I didn't see Lonesome Tonight mentioned... the guitar is beautiful

I love Bernard's guitar style, absolutely love it.

Big Black wrote:

Sub-Cultured*!* wrote: I don't know why The Edge and Slash is in this list. Just because Slash made a guitar solo outside the small church outside of nowhere in November Rain, or made the plucking intro for Sweet Child O' Mine (I knew a lot of guitar beginners who did that), or smokes the entire gig with his hair covering his face does not make him one of the all-time greats.

Listen to Appetite for Destruction. Then try telling me Slash is crap. He is also a great rhythm guitarist as demonstrated on Right Next Door to Hell and Dust N Bones.

The Edge relies too heavily on pedal effects but listen to the first U2 album Boy. It shows that he was still a capable guitarist.

The Edge seriously copped from Keith Levene; he just excised all the dissonance.

Manchester via Downunda wrote: . Perhaps Stephen Hague felt Barney's playing wasn't good enough and concentrated more on Barney's vocals leaving David Rhodes to do the more intricate guitar stuff(could be why Barney always complained about trying to make the chord shapes on his guitar for Everyone Everywhere).

His playing seems fine from Montreux 93, as shown in NO Story. Gillian's playing was good at that gig too.

JV wrote:

The Edge seriously copped from Keith Levene; he just excised all the dissonance.

This is true. He did the same with John McKay. The opening riff on Jigsaw Feeling (Siouxsie and the Banshess The Scream) provided the template for mid 80's U2, I would argue. You can also tell he loved John McGeough in his days when he was in Magazine.

He has impeccable, machine like timing, and that's rarer than rockin horse shite in guitarists.

I think Bernard was more concerned about the music than all that musicianship ego bullshit, which is what made prime era JD/NO unique and special.

Interesting comment about Republic thou, wondering just how much guitar was 'helped out' on. Another reason to be wary about that bland record.

Listening to some Joy Division live recordings thou, isn't alot of that guitar playing simple while being unusually sloppy? Not that i really care, which i don't.

Surely Barney takes a lot from The Velvet Underground - that choppy rhythm thing, quick leads chucked off between vocals. Another band with great interplay (see how Lou Reed has murdered their stuff since)the sum of the parts etc etc

Big Black wrote: Listen to Appetite for Destruction. Then try telling me Slash is crap. He is also a great rhythm guitarist as demonstrated on Right Next Door to Hell and Dust N Bones.

Dude, I never said Slash is crap. I just said I feel that he's not one of the greats.

Anyway, Appetite for Destruction is probably in my top 5 albums of all-time, if not, definitely in my top 10. I also like both Illusion albums. Also, I love his collaboration with Lenny Kravitz in the song 'Mama Said.'

Indeed*!*

Sub-Cultured*!* wrote:

Dude, I never said Slash is crap. I just said I feel that he's not one of the greats.

Anyway, Appetite for Destruction is probably in my top 5 albums of all-time, if not, definitely in my top 10. I also like both Illusion albums. Also, I love his collaboration with Lenny Kravitz in the song 'Mama Said.'

Ah! I misread your post. Sorry about that.

Maybe I take criticism of Slash personally because I grew up listening to GNR and he was the guitarist I looked up to: one who knew when to shut off the solo and concentrate on the song. But as I grew older, and started listening to other bands, I realised that there's nothing wrong with longer solos. Not to everyone's taste, obviously but criticism of Slash usually stems from people who complain that he doesn't play like Satriani and Vai and they don't seem to realise that Slash is more of a Keith Richards type player: where it's about the groove and 'soul' (that word again!) than technical precision.

Solitude wrote: He is not even the best guitarist in New Order - no not Gillian either.

Who is the best then?

My son who is into metal doesn't think much of Bernard either as a singer or musician. ('talentless' was his quote and I have started to agree)

That's because metal fans like these long and tedious guitar solos, which personally I'm REALLY not into.

I think that technically, he's not a great player, but is a good guitarist in the sense that he's imaginative, yet simple and effective at the same time. I really enjoy his guitar riffs, they're just fun and very engaging even when it's long and repetitive. It's something that other long solos were never able to captivate me.

Canuck21 wrote:

That's because metal fans like these long and tedious guitar solos, which personally I'm REALLY not into.

That's bollocks. What about Napalm Death, who do not play solos or Motorhead whose solos are short compared to other metal bands? Or even AC/DC?

Big Black wrote:

Canuck21 wrote:

That's because metal fans like these long and tedious guitar solos, which personally I'm REALLY not into.

That's bollocks. What about Napalm Death, who do not play solos or Motorhead whose solos are short compared to other metal bands? Or even AC/DC?

Ummm...well...they all still suck giant balls.

i think he has improved alot since the early days, i mean he never used to sing and play the guitar just either one, perhaps it didnt suit the songs at all, now he does both or either

Doctor? wrote: He has impeccable, machine like timing, and that's rarer than rockin horse shite in guitarists.

Ah but that sort of thing doesn't seem to count round here, at least in the posts of the majority! They ignored that quality when I pointed it out!

Richie Soans wrote: i think he has improved alot since the early days, i mean he never used to sing and play the guitar just either one, perhaps it didnt suit the songs at all, now he does both or either

Errrr no, he doesn't actually. He played and sung at the same time a lot more in the mid 80s. More recently it's not been exactly live

oldmonkey wrote:

Richie Soans wrote: i think he has improved alot since the early days, i mean he never used to sing and play the guitar just either one, perhaps it didnt suit the songs at all, now he does both or either

Errrr no, he doesn't actually. He played and sung at the same time a lot more in the mid 80s. More recently it's not been exactly live

I'd despute that Tim, I definitely think that he kept the two things more separate in ye olde days and stank much less as a result. These days he looks like a fuckin folk singer, strummin away constantly, and all he seems to achieve is to make it even harder for him to keep control of his mic technique and get content with his monitoring.

He's never looked happy on stage (blissed out maybe), but in latter days it just looked like he was making himself physically and mentally uncomfortable. He's forever missing syables (partly an engineering issue, wrong mic/gain structure), and he's never done making faces cos despite 3 wedges, two fucking MASSIVE sidefills (oddly, I didn't see those in B'mouth) and the old Lt Uhuru in-ear jobbies, he simply can't get comfy with his monitoring.

Then again, the contant guitar strummage is only the final straw, the hay=bail can best be summed up by that hacienda soundcheck vid.

Engineer:"Bernard's guitar now please" Hooky:"well his guitar's here" Engineer:"a song without Bernard then please, your idea of heaven surely." Band: much lollage.

Later, in he breezes, to a perfectly set up band, and starts fucking whining about the monitor mix he should have fucking been there for an hour ago. Plank. Still, he's hardly unique in that respect, some of the best players I've worked with think that timekeeping is some evil restriction on their lives, and that soundchecks are for the crew.

oldmonkey wrote:

Doctor? wrote: He has impeccable, machine like timing, and that's rarer than rockin horse shite in guitarists.

Ah but that sort of thing doesn't seem to count round here, at least in the posts of the majority! They ignored that quality when I pointed it out!

Object lesson.... AoC, the actual album version...each time I hear that guitar part in the middle, I seriously wonder where they got an Akai sampler in 1983...and how they triggered it with Sync24 (as I've mentioned before, Midi has PANTS timing)...but nope, it really is Barney.

Slash took more fucking takes to record SCOM than Barney took to get Procession right....FACT! The Hedge is, as Bill Bailey pointed out, just Preset A7 on some ART FX box.

What gets me.....they bash Barney, but then hold up these pop star losers as his betters. While I've only scanned the thread, I didn't seee names like, Django, or Paco anyhting, no Fripps or Hillages, nore a whisp of a Metheny, or anyone of 100 guys who would make fucking slash slash his boxers and run home to mum.

Doctor? wrote:

I'd despute that Tim, I definitely think that he kept the two things more separate in ye olde days and stank much less as a result. These days he looks like a fuckin folk singer, strummin away constantly, and all he seems to achieve is to make it even harder for him to keep control of his mic technique and get content with his monitoring.

He's not actually playing most of that when he's on the strum!!!

Regarding that David Rhodes who played on Republic - I was under the impression he only played the classical-guitar bit on "Ruined in a Day". Swear I've read that elsewhere but can't find the evidence.

oldmonkey wrote:

Doctor? wrote:

I'd despute that Tim, I definitely think that he kept the two things more separate in ye olde days and stank much less as a result. These days he looks like a fuckin folk singer, strummin away constantly, and all he seems to achieve is to make it even harder for him to keep control of his mic technique and get content with his monitoring.

He's not actually playing most of that when he's on the strum!!!

So how often was there pre-recorded guitar, '05-'06?

Doctor? wrote:

Object lesson.... AoC, the actual album version...each time I hear that guitar part in the middle, I seriously wonder where they got an Akai sampler in 1983...and how they triggered it with Sync24 (as I've mentioned before, Midi has PANTS timing)...but nope, it really is Barney.

I think I remember reading in a big Uncut or Mojo feature a few years back that the guitar break on AoC was perfected via a lot of Speed. In fact wasn't Bernard still off his face from the night before on that Maida Vale BBC live session in '84/'85 ("I think this one's a bit faster Steve.")

JV wrote:

oldmonkey wrote:

Doctor? wrote:

I'd despute that Tim, I definitely think that he kept the two things more separate in ye olde days and stank much less as a result. These days he looks like a fuckin folk singer, strummin away constantly, and all he seems to achieve is to make it even harder for him to keep control of his mic technique and get content with his monitoring.

He's not actually playing most of that when he's on the strum!!!

So how often was there pre-recorded guitar, '05-'06?

Every Regret since 1998, 60 Miles An Hour in 2001-02, possibly some of Crystal and Sirens Call, and I have my suspicions about Who's Joe too. It's not all of every song, just certain bits.

at 1:03 thats my fav

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RVP0qpJNH-0

Dream Attack live back in 1993 has guitars on tape for sure. Still think he's a great guitarist, just don't think he can really be bothered about being a great guitarist

Canuck21 wrote:

Solitude wrote: He is not even the best guitarist in New Order - no not Gillian either.

Who is the best then?

that would be Phil

My son who is into metal doesn't think much of Bernard either as a singer or musician. ('talentless' was his quote and I have started to agree)

That's because metal fans like these long and tedious guitar solos, which personally I'm REALLY not into.

I was having a bad day. Trying to negate 27 years of almost hero worshipping NO.

I think that technically, he's not a great player, but is a good guitarist in the sense that he's imaginative, yet simple and effective at the same time. I really enjoy his guitar riffs, they're just fun and very engaging even when it's long and repetitive. It's something that other long solos were never able to captivate me.

oldmonkey wrote:

Every Regret since 1998, 60 Miles An Hour in 2001-02, possibly some of Crystal and Sirens Call, and I have my suspicions about Who's Joe too. It's not all of every song, just certain bits.

Regret's double goes back to '93, at least with Montreux and Reading.

I wonder if once he concentrated on being a more 'professional' singer he lost confidence with the guitar, like it had to be one or the other.

Is this where you got the bit on John Frusciante? I totally agree with what he says here and it explains why Bernard is my fave guitarists:

"I did have a few guitarists who I was intent of emulating and who were big influences on my sound on By The Way," he says. "Like Vini Reilly from the Durutti Column."... "The main thing about his guitar playing is that it’s really textural. There’s lots of really interesting chords and shapes and you can’t really tell what’s going on. It’s a combination of his Les Paul plus some echo, flanger, chorus and phaser and not using distortion. You can’t tell what you’re hearing," he puzzles. "I have to really sit down and listen carefully to find out what’s going on. He’s just a great guitar player, full stop. I wanted to listen to these people who weren’t just about technique but more about textures. People like Johnny Marr, John McGeoch [Magazine, Siouxsie and the Banshees] and Andy Partridge [XTC]. People who used good chords," he concludes.

"But I also noticed that the people I was really focusing on Califonication had a bigger effect on my playing on this album. Matthew Ashman from Bow Wow Wow and Bernard Sumner from Joy Division and New Order: I noticed their influence on me this time too. Again, it’s a matter of texture over technique, and their influences are evident on tracks like Dosed and Midnight." [...] "Yeah, I’ve been playing along with their first two [Human League] albums [1979’s Reproduction and 1980’s Travelogue; detached, austere affairs in the vein of Tangerine Dream]". Still, as far as John’s concerned, it’s good backing track material. "That’s how I practise. Melodically, I’m far more influenced by Kraftwerk records than by guitarists’ solos. I’m really trying to get away from playing flashy stuff, and concentrating on not playing solos at all. There’s something about soloing that makes me feel like it’s almost irresponsible. I remember when I hadn’t played guitar in five years, I could pick up a guitar anytime any play that kind of flashy stuff, and I hadn’t been practising at all. But there was no feeling there."

Big Black wrote:

Canuck21 wrote:

That's because metal fans like these long and tedious guitar solos, which personally I'm REALLY not into.

That's bollocks. What about Napalm Death, who do not play solos or Motorhead whose solos are short compared to other metal bands? Or even AC/DC?

Dude, there are always exceptions . In general, metalheads are a bunch of showoffs.

Canuck21 wrote:

In general, metalheads are a bunch of showoffs.

And indie fans are overfed, elitist snobs, in general.

If you don't like metal then that's fair enough, but to categorise fans as one particular group is being daft.

It's a good question. I agree that he stopped caring about his guitar playing around 1983 or so and hasn't really progressed since then. Maybe he's even regressed.

Technically he was never very advanced, just concentrating on basic chords with the odd pentatonic stooges-like solo, but I think his sound in JD was really very good, especially live. As the sole guitar player in a 4-piece, without keybds or a second guitar to take some of the strain, he does a damn fine job of creating a wall of sound. But there's some subtlety in there too, helping to build tension (e.g Dead Souls intro, also New Dawn Fades). His technique is pretty rudimentary and I think his 'strumming from the elbow with a rigid wrist' technique may have held him back from getting better. The Shergold Masquerader makes an intersting sound - a bit more toppy than the SG, and nice complex harmonics too. That adds some unique flavour to his sound. Does anyone know when he switched from the Shergold to SG in Joy Div? I seem to remember him using the Masquerader into 1980, but I can't be sure.

In New Order his role is different and there's obviously less need for a big guitar sound amidst the electronics. He still does a good job on the live versions of the Movement material though.

There were some very good comments about the post-punk ethos of instrumental technique being unneccessary. It's true that many people thought that, but still the best groups had some unbelievable musicians (e.g. all of Magazine, McGeogh and Budgie in the Banshees) who found new textures rather than sheer virtuosity.

My personal three favorites are Alex Lifeson, Devin Townsend and, yes, Bernard Sumner. Everyone always looks at me cockeyed when I say Bernard after those two. But like someone said, solos are awesome displays of talent, but it's more about how well it suits the rest of the music. My personal favorite riff of Barney's is on Shadowplay. It's so fun to play, and always makes me smile because it's so perfect. Can you picture a mad Iron Maiden-style solo in the middle of Disorder or She's Lost Control or Your Silent Face or Twisted Tenderness? Every time he plays his guitar, it's perfect for the song he's playing to.

That's pretty much all I need to say really.

yeah id say barney is a good guitarist,but what sets him apart from other axe heroes is ther fact that even in joy division his interest in other musical instruments and sound meant that the guitar had become just another weapon in his arsenal. which is good as its all about the music to him and not the how good am i thing. the likes of santana,satriani ect would destroy barney technically on the guitar cos they are extreme examples of what they do and are great in their own field. barney has sculpted soundscapes in my opinion and used several instruments in doing so and there lies his greatness and talent. now heres an example for all u anoraks. when the jd substance cd came out and atmosphere was re-released,tony wilson had another one of his shows on the box and showed the video ect. the next guest on was some famous classicall composer, i forget who ,an old guy is all i remember. when the video ended and wilson started to introduce the composer,the composer"who just couldnt help himself" butted in and drew wilsons attention to the song he just played. and refered to the closing bars of atmosphere,the ones with the guitar crechendos at the end. which i consider to be one of the greatest peices of music every written . as he was sat at the piano he played how he said it should have been as it was off key? wilson gave a wry smile and said that he would make sure that the person responsible was notified lol. the guy just didnt get it,but thats music for you isnt it.

I'm addicted to Guitar Hero, and I've heard people on this interweb talk about all these "great" metal/alt-rock guitarists and how they can 5 star an expert song their first, but I'm sure if they put "Age of Consent" or "Love Vigilantes" on a new Guitar Hero game, they would shit themselves. And I would be greatful to beat it on Medium.

LONG. LIVE. BARNEY.

I place Barney up there with two other extremely emotive, creative and talented guitarists who are in no way "technical" geniuses:

Jeff Tweedy (Wilco) Peter Buck (R.E.M.)

Both these guys are regarded amongst the best in their genre, and both (Tweedy and Buck) would be the first to tell you they're shite guitarists. Buck even has said many times he's the least talented person in R.E.M.... Tweedy surrounds himself with guitar virtuosos to fleshen the guitar attack, but Tweedy himself has come up with some absolutely phenomenal songs that if not for the evocative, emotive guitar lines he plays wouldn't be half the songs they are.

None of these guys would be featured in Guitar Player for their mad technical skillz. But for every Satriani, Clapton, et al I'll take a thousand Bucks/Tweedys/Sumners.

drew

The Buck comparison is interesting. Obv a completely different style, but someone who also does a really good job within his limitations. He always has a solid sound too - nice twangy Rickenbackers and Teles. Rather like Hooky's role, REM have a bass player who often plays melody lines, which gives them more depth, and covers up some of PB's limitations. He's not *that* limited though - a pretty decent all-round guitarist.

The current lead guitarist in Wilco is fantastic - Nels Cline. Amazing sound (Fender Jazzmaster), great chops, but not afraid to stay in teh background if the song demands it.

Regret and crystal are fattened out to the point that Barney is just doing the actions in later gigs.

Isn't it a bit of a mare to sing and play at the same time though?

I can do neither.

It's a rare rhythm guitarist that sings as well, isn't it?

Joe Strummer is the obvious exception. Anyone else?

David Byrne. Byrne is actually an amazing guitarist..really good at doing funky rythm parts.

I love Barney's guitar playing. I love all of the funky Niles Rodgers type guitar parts that he played on a lot of older New Order songs. I wish he would do that more on newer songs. I really like the funky guitar part he played in The Perfect Kiss on the 2006 tour.

Did Barney play the funky "wah wah" guitar part on the Mac Quayle version of Guilt Is a Useless Emotion?

perhaps we should also ask...

How good of a keyboardist is Barney?

I know Barney wrote a lot of the synth parts on New Order songs...

And I am pretty sure that Barney wrote and played 90 percent of the keyboard parts on the WFTSC album.

BIGINOIL wrote: Regret and crystal are fattened out to the point that Barney is just doing the actions in later gigs.

Isn't it a bit of a mare to sing and play at the same time though?

I can do neither.

It's a rare rhythm guitarist that sings as well, isn't it?

Joe Strummer is the obvious exception. Anyone else?

It's not that difficult to do. The likes of James Dean Bradfield make lead guitar and vocals look ridiculously easy, even Ian McCulloch managed a mean rhythm guitar and vocal at times. If I can do it, it can't be hard!

DC wrote: The Buck comparison is interesting. Obv a completely different style, but someone who also does a really good job within his limitations. He always has a solid sound too - nice twangy Rickenbackers and Teles.

The current lead guitarist in Wilco is fantastic - Nels Cline. Amazing sound (Fender Jazzmaster), great chops, but not afraid to stay in teh background if the song demands it.

Different style again but can't resist. Some great escapes heard through the 1950s or so Blues.

Find so much is a sound is the Messenger not the Tune. Completely unique and even w/ the 'Standards of Jazz and Blues you know by first Bar who's who. W/ out generalizing that it was his job. B Sumner sets that extra textured line that stands out. Few lines in Procession. Interestin contrast perceived skill to emphasis in the where it is JD few yrs. to NOs whole time.

oldmonkey wrote:

BIGINOIL wrote: Regret and crystal are fattened out to the point that Barney is just doing the actions in later gigs.

Isn't it a bit of a mare to sing and play at the same time though?

I can do neither.

It's a rare rhythm guitarist that sings as well, isn't it?

Joe Strummer is the obvious exception. Anyone else?

It's not that difficult to do. The likes of James Dean Bradfield make lead guitar and vocals look ridiculously easy, even Ian McCulloch managed a mean rhythm guitar and vocal at times. If I can do it, it can't be hard!

It's not rare : it's the norm in 4-piece line-ups with 2 x guitar/bass/drums or guitar/bass/keys/drums. Or 3-pieces where the guitarist plays rhythm/lead. To add to Tim's examples :

Paul Weller in the Jam, Bob Mould (Husker Du), Metallica, Tom Verlaine (Television), Matt Bellamy (Muse), Jimi Hendrix, Gaz Coombes (Supergrass), modern shite like Editors/Razorlight.

It's not too hard to do with practice - some songs are very easy, some require a LOT of practice to uncouple the vocal rhythm from the guitar rhythm. There are tricks you can learn to make it easier.

There are tricks you can learn to make it easier.

Such as? Any pointers? Would be much appreciated, thanks?

BIGINOIL wrote: Regret and crystal are fattened out to the point that Barney is just doing the actions in later gigs.

Isn't it a bit of a mare to sing and play at the same time though?

I can do neither.

It's a rare rhythm guitarist that sings as well, isn't it?

Joe Strummer is the obvious exception. Anyone else?

james hetfield

don't knock it just cos it's metallica

some of the stuff he plays is incredibly intricate and complex, and he still manages to sing completely different rythms to the guitar lines

even plays the odd solo too

he's quality

Hetfield is indeed rather good. The guy Cobain is quite a good example of singer/guitarist as well I suppose!

oldmonkey wrote: Hetfield is indeed rather good. The guy Cobain is quite a good example of singer/guitarist as well I suppose!

not a fan of nirvana

eddie vedder's quite tasty on guitar these days though

vedder >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cobain

I'll take eddie Vedder over Kurt Cobain any day of the week. I am not a huge fan...but Pearl Jams first album has some amazing songs on it...better than anything Nirvana ever did.

I am not into Metallica....but James Hetfield is a pretty good guitarist.

Back to the subject at hand though...

I really enjoy Barney's guitar on:

EGG Angel Dust True Faith State of the Nation Everyone Everywhere the live version of Subculture Age of Consent

And various others.

can he play with a blind fold on?

ay ay?? can he??

james hetfield

don't knock it just cos it's metallica

some of the stuff he plays is incredibly intricate and complex, and he still manages to sing completely different rythms to the guitar lines

even plays the odd solo too

he's quality

Hetfield is an awesome rhythm guitarist, techinically the best in rock by a mile and a great live performer

I don´t know whether he is good or not, but he did great in NO/JD, and that is enough for me to think he is very good!

Matter of fact, why do I want him to be as Van Halen or Slash if the music he plays does not require to be like that???

Distinctive but not technically good. Like poo.

I dont think he was extraordinary, likewise with the rest of the band. However put them together and they complimented each other perfectly. Although not being able to play any kind of instrument personally i could be way off the mark.

Whatever he does, they do, it usually sounds good to me so thats good enough.

BIGINOIL wrote: Regret and crystal are fattened out to the point that Barney is just doing the actions in later gigs.

Isn't it a bit of a mare to sing and play at the same time though?

I can do neither.

It's a rare rhythm guitarist that sings as well, isn't it?

Joe Strummer is the obvious exception. Anyone else?

Rare? More like the exception. Bono, The Edge, Crowded House singer, Paul Weller, Pixies frontman, David Gohl, Kurt Cobain, Snow Patrol singer, Mark Knofler, Eric Clapton, John Lennon, Magic Numbers, James Dean Bradford, Billy Cougan, The Proclaimers, Noel Gallagher (probably even Liam Gallagher) can sing and play guitar simultaniously.

I think some folk are gifted enough to and some arent. Im rubbish at it I must confess.

Don't know if this's been mentioned before, but in 'An Ideal For Living' it says Barney was voted one of the best guitarists in some 1980 mag. But it was clearly a case of JD fans loving the songs rather than a technical comment, if you see what I mean.

Steve One wrote: I dont think he was extraordinary, likewise with the rest of the band. However put them together and they complimented each other perfectly. Although not being able to play any kind of instrument personally i could be way off the mark.

Whatever he does, they do, it usually sounds good to me so thats good enough.

I think I have to disagree with your statement "likewise with the rest of the band." Steve would rank higher than Barney on a ranking of their respective instruments, while Hooky is definitely extraordinary!

Indeed*!*