How Good A Guitarist Is Barney?

Of course, playing guitar for more than 30 years makes you one hell of a guitarist. But then, for Bernard Sumner, it doesn’t show in New Order’s type of music.

Red Hot Chili Peppers guitarist John Frusciante (RHCP from 1988 – 1992; 2002 to present) has noted in several interviews that Sumner is his all-time favorite guitarist. Honestly, I’m quite surprised with this statement, considering there are lots of guitarist who can… you know what I mean.

So how good is good? Where would you rank Sumner among the all-time greats? Also, if you can contribute links/videos where Sumner made a guitar solo, it would be very much appreciated.

Thanks, indeed*!*

Guitar playing isn't all about solos, contrary to popular opinion. Indeed, most of Barney's solos are simple and repetitive.

The mark of a good guitarist for me is someone who has timing (and Barney is pretty much faultless on this) and who can innovate. You only have to listen to most JD stuff to hear what he was about. Sure, there is less guitar stuff on New Order material, but what there is is simple and effective. He's come up with some great riffs over the years, but because the bass has dominated NO melodies, you tend not to appreciate the guitar parts so much. Take Age of Consent for example, or Sooner Than You Think, or Sunrise, all great guitar parts that aren't necessarily at the forefront of the song but which make a massive contribution.

Johnny Marr always said that Bernard was a better guitarist than most and that it took Bernard a lot of convincing about this

He is not even the best guitarist in New Order - no not Gillian either.

John whatsisname from the Chilli Peppers happens to rate him beacause he is a big JD fan.

For me , one of the downsides of JD's demise was Bernard's guitar playing becoming a bit part.

My son who is into metal doesn't think much of Bernard either as a singer or musician. ('talentless' was his quote and I have started to agree)

Im afraid I dont really rate barney as a good guitarist. Yes he is simple and effective, and within the constraints of JD / NO it works really well, but hes no Slash, Edge, Townshend or Van Halen.

darran clarke wrote: Im afraid I dont really rate barney as a good guitarist. Yes he is simple and effective, and within the constraints of JD / NO it works really well, but hes no Slash, Edge, Townshend or Van Halen.

And thank the stars for that.

Barney's guitar parts are excellent. Think Turn My Way, the Crystal intro, Regret ... Primitive Notion, Out of Control, the guitar break on Krafty ... for me his guitar playing has come to the fore on recent albums.

I'm no muso at all, but I love that kind of scratchy slashing style he has - it works perfectly with Hook and Morris.

Cheers

back in the day my dad said he'd seen barney do some pretty amazing stuff

but to answer the question, i don't know.

A bit like his singing. Can be brilliant one minute and awful the next.

Take the Glastonbury 87 CD as an example. His choppy guitar chords on TBTHOG are sublime, powerful and have great timing. But for Temptation he seems to make a comlete hash of it, the guitar even sounds out of tune (which might be the reason).

I totally disagree with the metalheads who say he's no good though. I think he's got simple riffs down to a fine art and his underplayed style suits NO (more so the studio stuff to the live stuff). Technique has brilliant catchy guitar riffs coming out of its ears (Run, Loveless, All The Way, Guilty Partner, Dream Attack).

I just think when it comes to playing live maybe he lacks belief in his own talents. Maybe im wrong. Thats just my measily take on it.

Edge? Van Halen??

My next comments on this matter were originally going to be put in a completely separate post, but I've now decided to put them in here. Barney has done some good stuff, granted, but I have my suspicions about how much was actually his playing on Republic given that he always mimes the intro to Regret at live gigs and because David Rhodes, a pretty good guitarist from Peter Gabriel's entourage, was credited as a guest musician on that album. Perhaps Stephen Hague felt Barney's playing wasn't good enough and concentrated more on Barney's vocals leaving David Rhodes to do the more intricate guitar stuff(could be why Barney always complained about trying to make the chord shapes on his guitar for Everyone Everywhere).

I think he is severely under-rated. Especially considering when the type of music they play isn't really guitar driven. A lot of his JD stuff is simply haunting with the effects placed on the guitar and the musical cues.

He's not going to go out there and wow you like rock bands a la Muse, but if I was to describe his guitar playing it would be with the word "beautiful." Take a look at The Perfect Kiss video when Hooky is raping the bass at the end. Barney jumps in perfectly with his guitar part. Same with his guitar playing on Tempation.

He's done too many drugs for his live performances to be used as "proof" of his playing prowess, but bum notes, sloppy playing, and all, the live tempation track on Retro makes me play air guitar every single time.

To me, "good" means expressive, and Barney's guitar playing is that, expressive of himself.

I don't need a Van Halen/Hendrix guitar technique virtuoso to enjoy music. That stuff bores me to tears.

There is a way I tell a good guitarist from any other. If I'm listening to music and feel the desire to stop what I'm doing to concentrate on the guitar playing, then THAT'S a good guitarist. Barney definately does that for me.

Also what I like is that since it is so underplayed, I can't wait to hear another riff, and lie in anticipation...Van Halen/Slash bore me because there is no anticipation. There right in yer face saying "look at me, I'm so good!"...they're trying WAAAY too hard be like Hendrix....and Van Halen and Slash are NO Hendrix.

Van Halen is a good guitarist (not my cuppa tea) but why do so many say Slash is??? He's overrated, kinda like the Edge is....

Someone here mentioned Pete Townshend as being a really great guitarist, but if you look at the sixties big wigs, Townshend for quite a while was your bedroom player's guitarist: aggressive strumming and simple, effective leads. I would place Bernard's melodic playing between early Townshend (think 'Substitute') and early George Harrison (see solo on the 'Baby It's You' cover off of Please Please Me), with Ron Asheton and the Chic guitarist representing his more rhythm-oriented influences. I cannot imagine several songs without Bernard's primitive yet beautiful playing. Disorder, Transmission, Colony, Ceremony, Temptation, AOC, The Village, Leave Me Alone, Love Vigilantes (a la 'Baby It's You' to these ears), have guitar riffs that stick with you from the first listen, and they are just a few that come to mind.

Hey i wish he played like Slash , The Edge , Townshend .They are ace they are

I often think his guitar work was much better in Joy Division

But yeah , yer can't argue with the stuff he plays on Sunrise , Sooner Than You Think , Love Vigilantes

ShedJacker wrote: I often think his guitar work was much better in Joy Division

totally agree

I do believe that he doesn't have to be a Joe Satriani or Steve Vai to be a good guitarist, although of course, these two are superb guitarist (and are good instuctors too! Check out their list of students). A good plucking will do.

Anyway, I like Barney's guitar work in Leave Me Alone

Indeed*!*

Yeah Leave Me Alone is another great one.Crystal intro too

Barney plays within his limitations and that makes him exciting.

It's important to note that there are plenty of musicians out there who would say that Barney, Hooky and Steve overplay because they use more than rudimentary chord shapes/melodic progressions. In reality technique is an asset in any artistic field, because without a practised hand ones creativity can be limited by lack of ability, B.B. King is a fabulous guitarist, has been known to indulge in a solo and has as much passion and soul as any rock musician.

There is of course a limit at which point technique for its own sake replaces artistic expression of 'the soul' (for lack of a more specific term) and I believe that you can find that in the form of the likes of Vai and Satriani, whose 'songs' are really just showcases for their technical proficiency. In rock, soloing as employed by the likes of Van Halen and Guns N Roses though the technical side and the soloing is not simply soulless note-spewing. The song remains in place, but the solo is added as a form of flavouring for the song and is sometimes even a highlight (Sweet Child O Mine and Jump spring immediately to mind).

Let's not kid ourselves that the punk/post-punk antipathy toward technique was motivated entirely by a sense of 'heart'. Some of the loudest voices in that particular campaign were the voices of people who simply couldn't play, and thus dismissed anybody who could. Barney's playing style (especially in JD) is actually atypical of the era, in that parts of his work actually resemble solos, and so he does not fit the punk/post-punk archetype: He's too good!

All art requires some semblance of technique. The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is one enormous technical flourish, yet it remains one of the masterpieces of human artistic achievement. Likewise, do you think that any old cunt who picked up a chisel could then have sculpted Michelangelo's David? Beethoven was a piano virtuoso and his work is staggeringly technical, but the emotion contained therein is unparalleled by anything being released today. That's not to say that guitar soloing is on that level, obviously! However, to assume that the demonstration of technical ability must be inherently lacking in 'heart and soul' is naive and simply a by-product of propaganda.

Well said and well done Big Black!

Indeed*!*

Blimey Owens, you been on the brain training?

Listen to Failures.

Sub-Cultured*!* wrote: Of course, playing guitar for more than 30 years makes you one hell of a guitarist. But then, for Bernard Sumner, it doesn’t show in New Order’s type of music.

Red Hot Chili Peppers guitarist John Frusciante (RHCP from 1988 – 1992; 2002 to present) has noted in several interviews that Sumner is his all-time favorite guitarist. Honestly, I’m quite surprised with this statement, considering there are lots of guitarist who can… you know what I mean.

So how good is good? Where would you rank Sumner among the all-time greats? Also, if you can contribute links/videos where Sumner made a guitar solo, it would be very much appreciated.

Thanks, indeed*!*

he's descently THAT DAMN Good!

Big Black wrote: Barney plays within his limitations and that makes him exciting.

It's important to note that there are plenty of musicians out there who would say that Barney, Hooky and Steve overplay because they use more than rudimentary chord shapes/melodic progressions. In reality technique is an asset in any artistic field, because without a practised hand ones creativity can be limited by lack of ability, B.B. King is a fabulous guitarist, has been known to indulge in a solo and has as much passion and soul as any rock musician.

There is of course a limit at which point technique for its own sake replaces artistic expression of 'the soul' (for lack of a more specific term) and I believe that you can find that in the form of the likes of Vai and Satriani, whose 'songs' are really just showcases for their technical proficiency. In rock, soloing as employed by the likes of Van Halen and Guns N Roses though the technical side and the soloing is not simply soulless note-spewing. The song remains in place, but the solo is added as a form of flavouring for the song and is sometimes even a highlight (Sweet Child O Mine and Jump spring immediately to mind).

Let's not kid ourselves that the punk/post-punk antipathy toward technique was motivated entirely by a sense of 'heart'. Some of the loudest voices in that particular campaign were the voices of people who simply couldn't play, and thus dismissed anybody who could. Barney's playing style (especially in JD) is actually atypical of the era, in that parts of his work actually resemble solos, and so he does not fit the punk/post-punk archetype: He's too good!

All art requires some semblance of technique. The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is one enormous technical flourish, yet it remains one of the masterpieces of human artistic achievement. Likewise, do you think that any old cunt who picked up a chisel could then have sculpted Michelangelo's David? Beethoven was a piano virtuoso and his work is staggeringly technical, but the emotion contained therein is unparalleled by anything being released today. That's not to say that guitar soloing is on that level, obviously! However, to assume that the demonstration of technical ability must be inherently lacking in 'heart and soul' is naive and simply a by-product of propaganda.

A good post sir.

nmc wrote: To me, "good" means expressive, and Barney's guitar playing is that, expressive of himself.

I don't need a Van Halen/Hendrix guitar technique virtuoso to enjoy music. That stuff bores me to tears.

I was gonna that.

Owens post is bang on, too.

Barney himself said that he didn't want to get technically better, because that's not punk. Or something.

That's the excuse I use as well

He, like Hooky and Steve, redefined the way we regard their respective instruments. The three of them were incredibly influential in JD particularly, I mean how many other bands appeared at the time to be quite obviously under their influence, John Peel used to say at the time that a large proportion of demos he received were very JD-like.

However I do know that being influential is different thing to playing ability, how many of us can figure out a JD riff in comparison to say the guitar parts for 'This Charming Man'. The beauty with JD/NO is the simplicity.

So, technically good - maybe? Influential - oh yes! Inspirational - definitely!

Mark Knopfler, Erik Clapton, Steve Vai and even Willie Nelson, I think you could use them to make a comparison and say Barney stinks. But The Edge? Slash? These aren't even names!

I don't know why The Edge and Slash is in this list. Just because Slash made a guitar solo outside the small church outside of nowhere in November Rain, or made the plucking intro for Sweet Child O' Mine (I knew a lot of guitar beginners who did that), or smokes the entire gig with his hair covering his face does not make him one of the all-time greats.

When it comes to glam rock, guitarists Nuno Bettencourt of Extreme (More Than Words) and Paul Gilbert of Mr. Big (To Be With You) tops everyone else

Indeed*!*

Jeeez..

some seriously cheesy guitarists being name-checked here.

Sub-Cultured*!* wrote: I don't know why The Edge and Slash is in this list. Just because Slash made a guitar solo outside the small church outside of nowhere in November Rain, or made the plucking intro for Sweet Child O' Mine (I knew a lot of guitar beginners who did that), or smokes the entire gig with his hair covering his face does not make him one of the all-time greats.

Listen to Appetite for Destruction. Then try telling me Slash is crap. He is also a great rhythm guitarist as demonstrated on Right Next Door to Hell and Dust N Bones.

The Edge relies too heavily on pedal effects but listen to the first U2 album Boy. It shows that he was still a capable guitarist.