How Good A Guitarist Is Barney?

I didn't see Lonesome Tonight mentioned... the guitar is beautiful

I love Bernard's guitar style, absolutely love it.

Big Black wrote:

Sub-Cultured*!* wrote: I don't know why The Edge and Slash is in this list. Just because Slash made a guitar solo outside the small church outside of nowhere in November Rain, or made the plucking intro for Sweet Child O' Mine (I knew a lot of guitar beginners who did that), or smokes the entire gig with his hair covering his face does not make him one of the all-time greats.

Listen to Appetite for Destruction. Then try telling me Slash is crap. He is also a great rhythm guitarist as demonstrated on Right Next Door to Hell and Dust N Bones.

The Edge relies too heavily on pedal effects but listen to the first U2 album Boy. It shows that he was still a capable guitarist.

The Edge seriously copped from Keith Levene; he just excised all the dissonance.

Manchester via Downunda wrote: . Perhaps Stephen Hague felt Barney's playing wasn't good enough and concentrated more on Barney's vocals leaving David Rhodes to do the more intricate guitar stuff(could be why Barney always complained about trying to make the chord shapes on his guitar for Everyone Everywhere).

His playing seems fine from Montreux 93, as shown in NO Story. Gillian's playing was good at that gig too.

JV wrote:

The Edge seriously copped from Keith Levene; he just excised all the dissonance.

This is true. He did the same with John McKay. The opening riff on Jigsaw Feeling (Siouxsie and the Banshess The Scream) provided the template for mid 80's U2, I would argue. You can also tell he loved John McGeough in his days when he was in Magazine.

He has impeccable, machine like timing, and that's rarer than rockin horse shite in guitarists.

I think Bernard was more concerned about the music than all that musicianship ego bullshit, which is what made prime era JD/NO unique and special.

Interesting comment about Republic thou, wondering just how much guitar was 'helped out' on. Another reason to be wary about that bland record.

Listening to some Joy Division live recordings thou, isn't alot of that guitar playing simple while being unusually sloppy? Not that i really care, which i don't.

Surely Barney takes a lot from The Velvet Underground - that choppy rhythm thing, quick leads chucked off between vocals. Another band with great interplay (see how Lou Reed has murdered their stuff since)the sum of the parts etc etc

Big Black wrote: Listen to Appetite for Destruction. Then try telling me Slash is crap. He is also a great rhythm guitarist as demonstrated on Right Next Door to Hell and Dust N Bones.

Dude, I never said Slash is crap. I just said I feel that he's not one of the greats.

Anyway, Appetite for Destruction is probably in my top 5 albums of all-time, if not, definitely in my top 10. I also like both Illusion albums. Also, I love his collaboration with Lenny Kravitz in the song 'Mama Said.'

Indeed*!*

Sub-Cultured*!* wrote:

Dude, I never said Slash is crap. I just said I feel that he's not one of the greats.

Anyway, Appetite for Destruction is probably in my top 5 albums of all-time, if not, definitely in my top 10. I also like both Illusion albums. Also, I love his collaboration with Lenny Kravitz in the song 'Mama Said.'

Ah! I misread your post. Sorry about that.

Maybe I take criticism of Slash personally because I grew up listening to GNR and he was the guitarist I looked up to: one who knew when to shut off the solo and concentrate on the song. But as I grew older, and started listening to other bands, I realised that there's nothing wrong with longer solos. Not to everyone's taste, obviously but criticism of Slash usually stems from people who complain that he doesn't play like Satriani and Vai and they don't seem to realise that Slash is more of a Keith Richards type player: where it's about the groove and 'soul' (that word again!) than technical precision.

Solitude wrote: He is not even the best guitarist in New Order - no not Gillian either.

Who is the best then?

My son who is into metal doesn't think much of Bernard either as a singer or musician. ('talentless' was his quote and I have started to agree)

That's because metal fans like these long and tedious guitar solos, which personally I'm REALLY not into.

I think that technically, he's not a great player, but is a good guitarist in the sense that he's imaginative, yet simple and effective at the same time. I really enjoy his guitar riffs, they're just fun and very engaging even when it's long and repetitive. It's something that other long solos were never able to captivate me.

Canuck21 wrote:

That's because metal fans like these long and tedious guitar solos, which personally I'm REALLY not into.

That's bollocks. What about Napalm Death, who do not play solos or Motorhead whose solos are short compared to other metal bands? Or even AC/DC?

Big Black wrote:

Canuck21 wrote:

That's because metal fans like these long and tedious guitar solos, which personally I'm REALLY not into.

That's bollocks. What about Napalm Death, who do not play solos or Motorhead whose solos are short compared to other metal bands? Or even AC/DC?

Ummm...well...they all still suck giant balls.

i think he has improved alot since the early days, i mean he never used to sing and play the guitar just either one, perhaps it didnt suit the songs at all, now he does both or either

Doctor? wrote: He has impeccable, machine like timing, and that's rarer than rockin horse shite in guitarists.

Ah but that sort of thing doesn't seem to count round here, at least in the posts of the majority! They ignored that quality when I pointed it out!

Richie Soans wrote: i think he has improved alot since the early days, i mean he never used to sing and play the guitar just either one, perhaps it didnt suit the songs at all, now he does both or either

Errrr no, he doesn't actually. He played and sung at the same time a lot more in the mid 80s. More recently it's not been exactly live

oldmonkey wrote:

Richie Soans wrote: i think he has improved alot since the early days, i mean he never used to sing and play the guitar just either one, perhaps it didnt suit the songs at all, now he does both or either

Errrr no, he doesn't actually. He played and sung at the same time a lot more in the mid 80s. More recently it's not been exactly live

I'd despute that Tim, I definitely think that he kept the two things more separate in ye olde days and stank much less as a result. These days he looks like a fuckin folk singer, strummin away constantly, and all he seems to achieve is to make it even harder for him to keep control of his mic technique and get content with his monitoring.

He's never looked happy on stage (blissed out maybe), but in latter days it just looked like he was making himself physically and mentally uncomfortable. He's forever missing syables (partly an engineering issue, wrong mic/gain structure), and he's never done making faces cos despite 3 wedges, two fucking MASSIVE sidefills (oddly, I didn't see those in B'mouth) and the old Lt Uhuru in-ear jobbies, he simply can't get comfy with his monitoring.

Then again, the contant guitar strummage is only the final straw, the hay=bail can best be summed up by that hacienda soundcheck vid.

Engineer:"Bernard's guitar now please" Hooky:"well his guitar's here" Engineer:"a song without Bernard then please, your idea of heaven surely." Band: much lollage.

Later, in he breezes, to a perfectly set up band, and starts fucking whining about the monitor mix he should have fucking been there for an hour ago. Plank. Still, he's hardly unique in that respect, some of the best players I've worked with think that timekeeping is some evil restriction on their lives, and that soundchecks are for the crew.

oldmonkey wrote:

Doctor? wrote: He has impeccable, machine like timing, and that's rarer than rockin horse shite in guitarists.

Ah but that sort of thing doesn't seem to count round here, at least in the posts of the majority! They ignored that quality when I pointed it out!

Object lesson.... AoC, the actual album version...each time I hear that guitar part in the middle, I seriously wonder where they got an Akai sampler in 1983...and how they triggered it with Sync24 (as I've mentioned before, Midi has PANTS timing)...but nope, it really is Barney.

Slash took more fucking takes to record SCOM than Barney took to get Procession right....FACT! The Hedge is, as Bill Bailey pointed out, just Preset A7 on some ART FX box.

What gets me.....they bash Barney, but then hold up these pop star losers as his betters. While I've only scanned the thread, I didn't seee names like, Django, or Paco anyhting, no Fripps or Hillages, nore a whisp of a Metheny, or anyone of 100 guys who would make fucking slash slash his boxers and run home to mum.

Doctor? wrote:

I'd despute that Tim, I definitely think that he kept the two things more separate in ye olde days and stank much less as a result. These days he looks like a fuckin folk singer, strummin away constantly, and all he seems to achieve is to make it even harder for him to keep control of his mic technique and get content with his monitoring.

He's not actually playing most of that when he's on the strum!!!

Regarding that David Rhodes who played on Republic - I was under the impression he only played the classical-guitar bit on "Ruined in a Day". Swear I've read that elsewhere but can't find the evidence.

oldmonkey wrote:

Doctor? wrote:

I'd despute that Tim, I definitely think that he kept the two things more separate in ye olde days and stank much less as a result. These days he looks like a fuckin folk singer, strummin away constantly, and all he seems to achieve is to make it even harder for him to keep control of his mic technique and get content with his monitoring.

He's not actually playing most of that when he's on the strum!!!

So how often was there pre-recorded guitar, '05-'06?

Doctor? wrote:

Object lesson.... AoC, the actual album version...each time I hear that guitar part in the middle, I seriously wonder where they got an Akai sampler in 1983...and how they triggered it with Sync24 (as I've mentioned before, Midi has PANTS timing)...but nope, it really is Barney.

I think I remember reading in a big Uncut or Mojo feature a few years back that the guitar break on AoC was perfected via a lot of Speed. In fact wasn't Bernard still off his face from the night before on that Maida Vale BBC live session in '84/'85 ("I think this one's a bit faster Steve.")

JV wrote:

oldmonkey wrote:

Doctor? wrote:

I'd despute that Tim, I definitely think that he kept the two things more separate in ye olde days and stank much less as a result. These days he looks like a fuckin folk singer, strummin away constantly, and all he seems to achieve is to make it even harder for him to keep control of his mic technique and get content with his monitoring.

He's not actually playing most of that when he's on the strum!!!

So how often was there pre-recorded guitar, '05-'06?

Every Regret since 1998, 60 Miles An Hour in 2001-02, possibly some of Crystal and Sirens Call, and I have my suspicions about Who's Joe too. It's not all of every song, just certain bits.

at 1:03 thats my fav

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RVP0qpJNH-0

Dream Attack live back in 1993 has guitars on tape for sure. Still think he's a great guitarist, just don't think he can really be bothered about being a great guitarist

Canuck21 wrote:

Solitude wrote: He is not even the best guitarist in New Order - no not Gillian either.

Who is the best then?

that would be Phil

My son who is into metal doesn't think much of Bernard either as a singer or musician. ('talentless' was his quote and I have started to agree)

That's because metal fans like these long and tedious guitar solos, which personally I'm REALLY not into.

I was having a bad day. Trying to negate 27 years of almost hero worshipping NO.

I think that technically, he's not a great player, but is a good guitarist in the sense that he's imaginative, yet simple and effective at the same time. I really enjoy his guitar riffs, they're just fun and very engaging even when it's long and repetitive. It's something that other long solos were never able to captivate me.

oldmonkey wrote:

Every Regret since 1998, 60 Miles An Hour in 2001-02, possibly some of Crystal and Sirens Call, and I have my suspicions about Who's Joe too. It's not all of every song, just certain bits.

Regret's double goes back to '93, at least with Montreux and Reading.

I wonder if once he concentrated on being a more 'professional' singer he lost confidence with the guitar, like it had to be one or the other.

Is this where you got the bit on John Frusciante? I totally agree with what he says here and it explains why Bernard is my fave guitarists:

"I did have a few guitarists who I was intent of emulating and who were big influences on my sound on By The Way," he says. "Like Vini Reilly from the Durutti Column."... "The main thing about his guitar playing is that it’s really textural. There’s lots of really interesting chords and shapes and you can’t really tell what’s going on. It’s a combination of his Les Paul plus some echo, flanger, chorus and phaser and not using distortion. You can’t tell what you’re hearing," he puzzles. "I have to really sit down and listen carefully to find out what’s going on. He’s just a great guitar player, full stop. I wanted to listen to these people who weren’t just about technique but more about textures. People like Johnny Marr, John McGeoch [Magazine, Siouxsie and the Banshees] and Andy Partridge [XTC]. People who used good chords," he concludes.

"But I also noticed that the people I was really focusing on Califonication had a bigger effect on my playing on this album. Matthew Ashman from Bow Wow Wow and Bernard Sumner from Joy Division and New Order: I noticed their influence on me this time too. Again, it’s a matter of texture over technique, and their influences are evident on tracks like Dosed and Midnight." [...] "Yeah, I’ve been playing along with their first two [Human League] albums [1979’s Reproduction and 1980’s Travelogue; detached, austere affairs in the vein of Tangerine Dream]". Still, as far as John’s concerned, it’s good backing track material. "That’s how I practise. Melodically, I’m far more influenced by Kraftwerk records than by guitarists’ solos. I’m really trying to get away from playing flashy stuff, and concentrating on not playing solos at all. There’s something about soloing that makes me feel like it’s almost irresponsible. I remember when I hadn’t played guitar in five years, I could pick up a guitar anytime any play that kind of flashy stuff, and I hadn’t been practising at all. But there was no feeling there."

Big Black wrote:

Canuck21 wrote:

That's because metal fans like these long and tedious guitar solos, which personally I'm REALLY not into.

That's bollocks. What about Napalm Death, who do not play solos or Motorhead whose solos are short compared to other metal bands? Or even AC/DC?

Dude, there are always exceptions . In general, metalheads are a bunch of showoffs.

Canuck21 wrote:

In general, metalheads are a bunch of showoffs.

And indie fans are overfed, elitist snobs, in general.

If you don't like metal then that's fair enough, but to categorise fans as one particular group is being daft.