Having just read the Bernard Sumner biography I am wondering exactly what did Gretton bring to JD/NO. Did they achieve success because of or in spite of Gretton? The Hacienda was possibly his major achievement but I am just left with the impression that he was generally a liability.
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What was the point of Rob Gretton?
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This is an archived legacy thread. Replies are closed, but the discussion is preserved.
I think Gretton was absolutely key to establishing Factory/New Order/Joy Division as the unique, wonderfully absurd entities they were.
Without him they'd have probably signed to Virgin records and got sucked up into that whole record, tour, marketing crap.
Post-Gretton I increasingly regard New Order as 'just another band' playing dull gigs in dull places, releasing dull records, encores, merchandise, playing the same TV shows all that bollocks that's 'essential' if you wanna make some money.
Fuck Warner Brothers. It's wrong to own any New Order/JD product that doesn't have a Fac number on.
mh wrote encores
i dont know why everyone gets a hissy about order doing encores now as some commercial sell out,
i saw me first order encore in 82 and by and large theive always played em,, they couldt play em early on cos they didt have enough songs written. the legend always sounds better though.
well it works both ways, they want more just give it to them.w.w..w r.n.
He guided the best band ever to come out of manchester, thats what... 
(Oh, and he pissed in someones orange appaently!). 
What was the point of rob gretton?
What a stupid fucking question is the first thing that comes to mind.
But thats not being fair really.
Whilst Tony Wilson quite rightly is recognised now for what he did for Manchester (not entirely all of it good, especially the financial side of Factory) Rob and his attitude was the very essence of neworder. Without rob, definately no new order would ever have evolved to be one of the greatest bands the UK has ever produced.
And off sanctimonious soapbox.... I feel better now. Sorry
:bag:
Doggy wrote: What was the point of rob gretton?
What a stupid fucking question is the first thing that comes to mind.
But thats not being fair really.
Whilst Tony Wilson quite rightly is recognised now for what he did for Manchester (not entirely all of it good, especially the financial side of Factory) Rob and his attitude was the very essence of neworder. Without rob, definately no new order would ever have evolved to be one of the greatest bands the UK has ever produced.
And off sanctimonious soapbox.... I feel better now. Sorry
:bag:
Well said, Sir!
*would speak up but sees what needed to be said, well, said.*
I see. So everybody is trotting out the party line that Gretton was the fifth member of JD/NO, his contribution was essential to the success and JD/NO wouldn’t have happened without him. No debate there then. To me it seems he was a chancer, his actions came from naiveity and ignorance and his contributions were minimal. Where is the evidence to the contrary? What did he do that no other manager could do? Did he have success with any other band. The genius within JD/NO was Curtis/Sumner. Did it need Gretton to bring it out? Could NO have been bigger than they were/are? Perhaps the dysfunctional shambles that NO became was nothing to do with Gretton then. Maybe Sumner and Hook could have become multi millionaires rather than the mere millionaires they are now. My current impression of Gretton is of him dancing on his own in the Hacienda as shown in the recent Factory records programme with a self satisfied smirk on his face and I think…what a tosser.
a very small boy wrote: dancing on his own in the Hacienda as shown in the recent Factory records programme with a self satisfied smirk on his face and I think…what a tosser.
that's what i basically thought.
but my immediate thought was...WHAT a gay looking tosser.
a very small boy wrote: My current impression of Gretton is of him dancing on his own in the Hacienda as shown in the recent Factory records programme with a self satisfied smirk on his face and I think…what a tosser.
Bit 'arsh Chris.
You can't take a split second in someone's life and then hold it up as an image to somehow represent their entire existence.
I don't see anything more in that vid than Gretton clowning around in front of a camera, in a club he helped built.
If New Order refer to him as their 5th member then that should be good enough for all of us.
I don't really care about the shambolism or dysfunctionality. Like it or not, New Order would never have been bigger with better management, and had they been bigger / more populist, and oozed less of the cool and indifference then I doubt most of us would be posting today.
On how many other band messageboards do fans eulogise about their favourite band's manager? Or indeed, even know or care who their band's manager is? Not many, I'm sure.
Rob Gretton, he was part of the family, weren't he - just like Wilson, Erasmus, Hannett, Saville, etc, et cetera.
All of them absolute amateurs but I wouldn't change a moment of it.
El Jarvo wrote: New Order would never have been bigger with better management, and had they been bigger / more populist, and oozed less of the cool and indifference then I doubt most of us would be posting today.
can't argue with that.
You want something specific? I'll tell you what he contributed... a story which Tony used to recite all the time, so you should've heard it by now...
Before Rob and Joy Division, independent record labels existed for the sole purpose of getting their acts heard and signed to a major label.
Joy Division were poised to do just that, having already recorded sessions for a debut album. They would've gotten a healthy advance, a good deal of promotion, and been comfortable in the hazy world of commercial music.
But Rob decided instead to stay in Manchester and make the first album homegrown. Sure it denied them the security and status of being in the music biz, but it also meant...
Thanks to Tony's and Rob's ridiculous agreement, which many claim to be the best deal given to any musicians in history, they'd get a much nicer profit share. The profits weren't always great, but it was a good idea in theory.
No more dealing with untrustworthy record industry people in London, or having to hop on trains, or God forbid move.
Complete artistic freedom. No pressure from the label to put out so many singles per album or emulate this style or do that talk show. They did what they wanted, and could be themselves all the time.
The idea of saying "fuck off" to the majors and staying with an indie label was unheard of until Rob Gretton had the idea to do it with Joy Division. He literally invented indie music, and Joy Division and New Order were the prototypes that defined it.
I can think of few contributions to the way rock music is made and managed that are more important than that.
El Jarvo wrote:
a very small boy wrote: My current impression of Gretton is of him dancing on his own in the Hacienda as shown in the recent Factory records programme with a self satisfied smirk on his face and I think…what a tosser.
Bit 'arsh Chris.
You can't take a split second in someone's life and then hold it up as an image to somehow represent their entire existence.
I don't see anything more in that vid than Gretton clowning around in front of a camera, in a club he helped built.
If New Order refer to him as their 5th member then that should be good enough for all of us.
I don't really care about the shambolism or dysfunctionality. Like it or not, New Order would never have been bigger with better management, and had they been bigger / more populist, and oozed less of the cool and indifference then I doubt most of us would be posting today.
On how many other band messageboards do fans eulogise about their favourite band's manager? Or indeed, even know or care who their band's manager is? Not many, I'm sure.
Rob Gretton, he was part of the family, weren't he - just like Wilson, Erasmus, Hannett, Saville, etc, et cetera.
All of them absolute amateurs but I wouldn't change a moment of it.
Yeah, its only the current image I have of Gretton but it just followed on from the Sumner book where they clearly had disagreements and I dont think that Bernard is that impressed with Gretton when he looks back on the things that happened. Amateurs they all were, yes, but did Gretton have any actual talent? (And it was a surprise that he had been sectioned at one time)
Its a dilemma (or should that be a dichotomy)in that we want NO to be the greatest yet at the same time keep them within arms reach and within the bosom of the cognoscenti.
Perhaps NO would have been bigger but not necessarily better without Gretton. That’s what I believe.
King John Honest John wrote:
a very small boy wrote: dancing on his own in the Hacienda as shown in the recent Factory records programme with a self satisfied smirk on his face and I think…what a tosser.
that's what i basically thought.
but my immediate thought was...WHAT a gay looking tosser.
I knew Rob a bit, and I can tell you that you would NOT have said that to his face for a couple of reasons.
One of them at the end of each arm
I think Hooky's book will paint a different picture, it seems Barney can't remember most things these days, his friends, his lyrics etc I'm really starting to go off barney, jet stream was the start of it.
Jed Stephens wrote: I think Hooky's book will paint a different picture, it seems Barney can't remember most things these days, his friends, his lyrics etc I'm really starting to go off barney, jet stream was the start of it.
OT, but what's the story with Barney and Jetstream? Is he the one who pushes for more pop songs? I don't like that direction at all and miss the more artistic songs, the ones that sound different you know?
a very small boy wrote: What did he do that no other manager could do? Did he have success with any other band.
Robs Records, Sub Sub/Doves and inspiration to countless others springs to mind! Cheers!
Alan Paul Kitching wrote:
a very small boy wrote: What did he do that no other manager could do? Did he have success with any other band.
Robs Records, Sub Sub/Doves and inspiration to countless others springs to mind!
Perhaps he had worked out what he was supposed to be doing by that stage!
Bernard from the book...
'Rob used to say to everyone,"What are you doing?" "Well, nothing Rob,nothing." "What should you be doing? Skin up!" I'll remember those words'
Smoke screens everywhere!
F'N A..
What kind of question is this? What is the point of a person..
What is the point in any of us? Nothing?
Rob was their manager, and NO considered him vital. enough?
a very small boy wrote:
I'll remember those words'
So will I!
Surely, getting Barney to roll a reefer was a good enough reason to spend time on the planet!
Who the fuck knows? But for all the people slagging him, I met him on two occasions, first at the Hac in the late eighties and basically he just fobbed me off like the cabaged plant pot I was. Fair doos. Second time at the opening night of Home, the club on Dale St, a few years later, he n Hooky were top laugh, Hooky in leather keks n biker boots!!!!, talking about whether NO would do another album and even dismissing some local GMen (God why did my gang always attract 'em?)
Anyway, have some respect mofo's.
'Tear The Roof Off The Mother' G.Clinton.!!!! Check it out on Limewire.
From my perspective Rob was a STAR, as I could rely on him 100% to get me in when there were no tickets left whatsoever.
The bloke would pull out ALL the stops, and comically it would sometime involve getting his wee lap dog (Mason) to do something. Terry always seemed so damned bitter for some reason. Answers on a postcard.
So was born my love affair with Terry Baby. On most tours Rob would put me on each guest list and Terry (as 'Production Manager') would then remove it.
Bernard then came up with the idea of using a 'coded' name, but AMAZINGLY Terry caught on and removed that one also !
Rob then gave me a laminate, and Terry got the sack, but not before he copped off with that bag of e!
Happy days.
a very small boy wrote: What was the point of rob Gretton?
Gretton WAS JD/NO.
Who the fuck cares about sales or charts?
Your question should get your ass kicked.
Your question makes me sad.
Your teacher may have told you, "There ARE no stupid questions" when you asked one once....
You just proved your teacher wrong.
A strange question indeed. But no, Gretton WASN'T JD/NO, as our erstwhile correspondent would have us believe. He was but a part of it, a significant part but not the major force.
In the early days, by their own admission they had plenty of drive and determination but no focus for that drive. Rob Gretton provided that in his own inimitable way, and he stamped his personality all over a whole range of decisions that were made, such as releasing Unknown Pleasures on Factory, not doing a lot of publicity, concentrating on building a reputation and following rather than courting the London media. Once they had achieved a degree of success, though, and Bernard came more to the fore as the driving force (however others may wish to disagree, it has it seems always been a case of Bernard calling the shots), Rob's role seems to have changed a little. Rob seems to have been coming from a wider perspective than just band manager, projects like the Hacienda, Dry etc weren't your run-of-the-mill band decisions.
In retrospect, they might have achieved a bit more (and certainly had a lot more money) without some of Rob's ideas for helping spend their money, but as Wilson would have said, we wouldn't have had the history, the legend, the Hacienda then, and they would have been just another successful band. At least ours gave it all back and some.
Thanks to all those who gave reasoned answers and contributed to a debate as opposed to the 'what a fuckin stupid question, Rob WAS JD/NO' brigade, although I accept that the question was deliberately provocative.
I never knew Gretton and by the time I was aware of NO his influence had clearly declined. I dont know exactly what it was but it was just something that was nagging me after I had read Nolans book that prompted me to ask the question and to see if people could actually rationalise what Gretton did and whether the whole JD/NO scene would have been better or worse without his input.
For example, if it was his decision not to go to London in the early days was that because he knew he would be exposed as having little or no experience in managing a band and would subsequently lose control of the band? Viewed in that context what may have been a selfish decision possibly did benefit the band in the long term. Or did Curtis, Sumner et al have no intention of decamping to London anyway in which case it had nothing to do with Gretton.
Of course it is difficult to speculate but the fun is having the debate.
I loved the story from David Molyneux about Terry Mason. Of course I knew Terry from years ago. He was a hanger-on then and it seems he didn’t really change. I can just see how much they would all have been in awe of Wilson though with his massive intellect (well at least in comparison!) though.
a very small boy wrote:
For example, if it was his decision not to go to London in the early days was that because he knew he would be exposed as having little or no experience in managing a band and would subsequently lose control of the band?
Interesting! Hadn't thought of it like that, I've always thought of it as being RG's inherent distrust of Londoners and of the music business, not of course that he had had all that much dealing with either at that stage! It did make sense for them to become very tight and popular regionally, it does with most bands. He probably got the strategy about right.
a very small boy wrote: Thanks to all those who gave reasoned answers and contributed to a debate as opposed to the 'what a fuckin stupid question, Rob WAS JD/NO' brigade, although I accept that the question was deliberately provocative.
I take it you may include me in this.
Well, I enjoy debate as well and I gave a lot of thought to your question at the time of my initial response and other NOOL opinions. So much so, at the Control Screening in East Finchley last night I put your question to Hooky to see if he could give his opinion.
Hooky stated that Rob Gretton was the driving force behind Joy Division and he had seen how strategic Rob had been in his plans to develop and expose Joy Division. His influence on the band was monumental.
So there's something for you to chew on. Ok? 
:bag:
a stupid question got a stupid answer.
look, the bottom line is that the OP question is framed in some anti-Factory "if not for Gretton, New Order would have made more money" argument.
Was that the point of New Order?
Was it about money or number of LPs?
no.
without Gretton, New Order may have never even happened. They might have got signed to some label and put out one lp produced by John Robbie and then never heard from again.....
That is why Gretton IS New Order.
sorry for the histrionics. i apologize.
but if you are upset at Gretton, you are missing the point.
The only person who seems remotely upset is you! Rob Gretton was the person who shaped and galvanised the talent. He was only ever 1/5 of the band though. In the same way that they needed Tony Wilson's unique take on risk management, and Martin Hannett's unique production style, they needed Rob's unique management style. Put that into the mix with four musicians who "couldn't play but could" and you have a winning formula. It's impossible to say if New Order would have succeeded without Rob Gretton, as the choices they made when he was around have inevitably shaped the way things progressed since, and we can't say that it is his absence alone that has been responsible for everything since 99, they've become old and more complacent. Joy Division wouldn't have had the success they did without Gretton's input though, if Terry Mason had stayed "in charge" they would in all probability have fizzled out within a couple of years, frustrated and disenchanted with the lack of breaks.
Doggy wrote:
Hooky stated that Rob Gretton was the driving force behind Joy Division
Wouldn't want to argue with that then. Bernard was by his own admission a lazy twat so without Rob pushing them I can see that inertia would have won the day.
I accept that the Pendleton Fault (Not the geological fault line running through Salford which causes the occasional earth tremor, but the psychological affliction which causes people from Salford to underestimate themselves and their ability, Wilson being the exception that proves the rule) was thus negated by Robs overbearing confidence.
You can stop spinning in your grave now Rob. Sorry to have ever doubted your worth. Please forgive me.
Tarbox23 wrote:
That is why Gretton IS New Order.
they'd have survived without that oddball. no danger.
El Jarvo wrote:
a very small boy wrote: My current impression of Gretton is of him dancing on his own in the Hacienda as shown in the recent Factory records programme with a self satisfied smirk on his face and I think…what a tosser.
Bit 'arsh Chris.
You can't take a split second in someone's life and then hold it up as an image to somehow represent their entire existence.
I don't see anything more in that vid than Gretton clowning around in front of a camera, in a club he helped built.
If New Order refer to him as their 5th member then that should be good enough for all of us.
I don't really care about the shambolism or dysfunctionality. Like it or not, New Order would never have been bigger with better management, and had they been bigger / more populist, and oozed less of the cool and indifference then I doubt most of us would be posting today.
On how many other band messageboards do fans eulogise about their favourite band's manager? Or indeed, even know or care who their band's manager is? Not many, I'm sure.
Rob Gretton, he was part of the family, weren't he - just like Wilson, Erasmus, Hannett, Saville, etc, et cetera.
All of them absolute amateurs but I wouldn't change a moment of it.
Abso-fookin'-lutely spot on!
Altho',after watching 'Control',it is interesting to note that when Rob receives the call from Ian to accept him as their manager,he answers a pay-phone in a dingy squat.Fast forward 2/3 years to the beginning of 1980,& when Ian & Annik knock on a cottage-looking front door,who should open it but Rob,looking like he's doing very well for himself in a swanky gaff,while the rest of the band are skint? Mmmmm...just artistic licence I s'pose....
