What was the point of Rob Gretton?

a very small boy wrote:

For example, if it was his decision not to go to London in the early days was that because he knew he would be exposed as having little or no experience in managing a band and would subsequently lose control of the band?

Interesting! Hadn't thought of it like that, I've always thought of it as being RG's inherent distrust of Londoners and of the music business, not of course that he had had all that much dealing with either at that stage! It did make sense for them to become very tight and popular regionally, it does with most bands. He probably got the strategy about right.

a very small boy wrote: Thanks to all those who gave reasoned answers and contributed to a debate as opposed to the 'what a fuckin stupid question, Rob WAS JD/NO' brigade, although I accept that the question was deliberately provocative.

I take it you may include me in this.

Well, I enjoy debate as well and I gave a lot of thought to your question at the time of my initial response and other NOOL opinions. So much so, at the Control Screening in East Finchley last night I put your question to Hooky to see if he could give his opinion.

Hooky stated that Rob Gretton was the driving force behind Joy Division and he had seen how strategic Rob had been in his plans to develop and expose Joy Division. His influence on the band was monumental.

So there's something for you to chew on. Ok?

:bag:

a stupid question got a stupid answer.

look, the bottom line is that the OP question is framed in some anti-Factory "if not for Gretton, New Order would have made more money" argument.

Was that the point of New Order?

Was it about money or number of LPs?

no.

without Gretton, New Order may have never even happened. They might have got signed to some label and put out one lp produced by John Robbie and then never heard from again.....

That is why Gretton IS New Order.

sorry for the histrionics. i apologize.

but if you are upset at Gretton, you are missing the point.

The only person who seems remotely upset is you! Rob Gretton was the person who shaped and galvanised the talent. He was only ever 1/5 of the band though. In the same way that they needed Tony Wilson's unique take on risk management, and Martin Hannett's unique production style, they needed Rob's unique management style. Put that into the mix with four musicians who "couldn't play but could" and you have a winning formula. It's impossible to say if New Order would have succeeded without Rob Gretton, as the choices they made when he was around have inevitably shaped the way things progressed since, and we can't say that it is his absence alone that has been responsible for everything since 99, they've become old and more complacent. Joy Division wouldn't have had the success they did without Gretton's input though, if Terry Mason had stayed "in charge" they would in all probability have fizzled out within a couple of years, frustrated and disenchanted with the lack of breaks.

Doggy wrote:

Hooky stated that Rob Gretton was the driving force behind Joy Division

Wouldn't want to argue with that then. Bernard was by his own admission a lazy twat so without Rob pushing them I can see that inertia would have won the day.

I accept that the Pendleton Fault (Not the geological fault line running through Salford which causes the occasional earth tremor, but the psychological affliction which causes people from Salford to underestimate themselves and their ability, Wilson being the exception that proves the rule) was thus negated by Robs overbearing confidence.

You can stop spinning in your grave now Rob. Sorry to have ever doubted your worth. Please forgive me.

new order never made a carrot.

so blame Rob & themselves.

Tarbox23 wrote:

That is why Gretton IS New Order.

they'd have survived without that oddball. no danger.

El Jarvo wrote:

a very small boy wrote: My current impression of Gretton is of him dancing on his own in the Hacienda as shown in the recent Factory records programme with a self satisfied smirk on his face and I think…what a tosser.

Bit 'arsh Chris.

You can't take a split second in someone's life and then hold it up as an image to somehow represent their entire existence.

I don't see anything more in that vid than Gretton clowning around in front of a camera, in a club he helped built.

If New Order refer to him as their 5th member then that should be good enough for all of us.

I don't really care about the shambolism or dysfunctionality. Like it or not, New Order would never have been bigger with better management, and had they been bigger / more populist, and oozed less of the cool and indifference then I doubt most of us would be posting today.

On how many other band messageboards do fans eulogise about their favourite band's manager? Or indeed, even know or care who their band's manager is? Not many, I'm sure.

Rob Gretton, he was part of the family, weren't he - just like Wilson, Erasmus, Hannett, Saville, etc, et cetera.

All of them absolute amateurs but I wouldn't change a moment of it.

Abso-fookin'-lutely spot on!

Altho',after watching 'Control',it is interesting to note that when Rob receives the call from Ian to accept him as their manager,he answers a pay-phone in a dingy squat.Fast forward 2/3 years to the beginning of 1980,& when Ian & Annik knock on a cottage-looking front door,who should open it but Rob,looking like he's doing very well for himself in a swanky gaff,while the rest of the band are skint? Mmmmm...just artistic licence I s'pose....