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Bernard Sumner & Confederate Flag?

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I watched the New Order Live in Glasgow DVD and noticed that Bernard Sumner had a Confederate flag on his guitar. The Confederate flag has been described variously as a proud emblem of United States southern heritage and as a shameful reminder of slavery and segregation. The Confederate flag has also been appropriated by the Ku Klux Klan and other racist hate groups.

I was wondering why Bernard Sumner chose to wear this flag on his guitar. Has he addressed this in any interviews or elsewhere?

I tried searching this site and could not find the information. If this was addressed elsewhere on the forums, I apologize in advance for return to the topic, but I would appreciate a link.

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My understanding is that the SG Jr. turned up as a rental for a video shoot and he liked the guitar so much he decided to buy it.

Sticker may have been on the guitar when it showed up and would undoubtably damage the finish of a 1960's guitar if you attempted to remove it.

That said, I'll leave it to others who may have more knowledge to chime in.

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He's a racialist!

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NYMike wrote: The Confederate flag has been described variously as a proud emblem of United States southern heritage and as a shameful reminder of slavery and segregation.

Interesting how the Confederate Battle flag is a shameful reminder of slavery. The Confederate States of America existed for approximately five years. Five years of slavery.

Slavery existed under the Stars and Stripes for many more years, so why isn't that flag a shameful reminder of slavery?

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um, perhaps because when it came to fighting a war to determine whether slavery would continue, the confederate flag represented the losing side of "we love slaves"

just a guess.

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Tarbox23 wrote: um, perhaps because when it came to fighting a war to determine whether slavery would continue, the confederate flag represented the losing side of "we love slaves"

just a guess.

yep.

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some of the brits don't get why this is such a big issue to us americans, but it really is like having a swastika on your guitar and playing in europe.....

you walk into neighborhoods in the US with that guitar, and you are gonna get strung up, by blacks AND whites.

he should really add a swastika for full effect.

and maybe a picture of a 'n*gger hangin from a tree' on a tshirt next time if he ever plays live again.

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...i think they have already had this discussion here? Don't remember if they came to a conclusion.

Maybe Bernard is interested in american "country music". Usually if you see somebody with a confederate flag in the USA, they tend to be proudly "redneck-ish"... unless there is some sort of irony. Not really something to fight about, but blacks definitely find it classless and disrespectful.

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NOOL Passim

Last time this came up we thought he might be a fan of Primal Scream's Give Out But Don't Give Up or even the Dukes of Hazard.

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There are pictures of Hooky from the '86 U.S. tour wearing a t-shirt with it on too,so what? I really don't think it's meant to be taken literally,& if he was referencing that I'm sure he wouldn't do it so much in your face,so to speak.They are many examples of Bernard embracing black culture,the music for one,& also the fact that Erasmus is black,he has worked numerous times with Dojo from ACR,& the Hac' was managed by a black person for years.So,so what? I think it's distasteful & disrespectful to even contemplate it,& I for one,don't want to even go anywhere with it,I'm sure it's nothing more than it's artistic & aesthetic merit only :nono:

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confederate apologists!

if he had a little tiny hard to see swastika on his guitar, you would all be singing a different tune....

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the explanation is simple, he doesn't know or he doesn't give a fook. as it was addressed here nobody but the americans really understands what is it about. i'm sure if someone tells him about it he'd remove it, not such a big deal imho

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Tarbox23 wrote: um, perhaps because when it came to fighting a war to determine whether slavery would continue, the confederate flag represented the losing side of "we love slaves"

just a guess.

Hmmm, if the Civil War was simply about determining whether or not slavery would continue, why were there still slaves in the Union?

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Ok, maybe Europeans don't get it. But there's something that Americans don't get either. In Europe and elsewhere Confederate Flag is a symbol of rebel, primarily rock'n'roll - almost all rockabilly bands and cafes in Europe have Confederate flags all over the place. It's no wonder to see a bass with Confederate flag in a rockabilly shop, so my guess is that Sumner's guitar came from the same type shops.

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Jeffari-al-Texani wrote:

Tarbox23 wrote: um, perhaps because when it came to fighting a war to determine whether slavery would continue, the confederate flag represented the losing side of "we love slaves"

just a guess.

Hmmm, if the Civil War was simply about determining whether or not slavery would continue, why were there still slaves in the Union?

So, the Civil War didn't have to do with whether or not slavery would continue? :scratch:

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|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote: Ok, maybe Europeans don't get it. But there's something that Americans don't get either. In Europe and elsewhere Confederate Flag is a symbol of rebel, primarily rock'n'roll - almost all rockabilly bands and cafes in Europe have Confederate flags all over the place. It's no wonder to see a bass with Confederate flag in a rockabilly shop, so my guess is that Sumner's guitar came from the same type shops.

I'd like to think it's somethnig like that. That Barney, as a European, just didn't understand the way many Americans would take something like that. He probably didn't think anything of it.

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Shellshocker wrote:

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote: Ok, maybe Europeans don't get it. But there's something that Americans don't get either. In Europe and elsewhere Confederate Flag is a symbol of rebel, primarily rock'n'roll - almost all rockabilly bands and cafes in Europe have Confederate flags all over the place. It's no wonder to see a bass with Confederate flag in a rockabilly shop, so my guess is that Sumner's guitar came from the same type shops.

I'd like to think it's somethnig like that. That Barney, as a European, just didn't understand the way many Americans would take something like that. He probably didn't think anything of it.

great points.also, Everybody's so P.C. these days. If you look past the past history of the flag, it's a pretty cool looking for a flag.

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He's just exercising his 5th amendment rights. :evil4:

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People LOOOOVE to pretend to be offended. On behalf of other people.
:rolleyes:

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Shellshocker wrote:

Jeffari-al-Texani wrote:

Tarbox23 wrote: um, perhaps because when it came to fighting a war to determine whether slavery would continue, the confederate flag represented the losing side of "we love slaves"

just a guess.

Hmmm, if the Civil War was simply about determining whether or not slavery would continue, why were there still slaves in the Union?

So, the Civil War didn't have to do with whether or not slavery would continue? :scratch:

Course it did - Lincoln knew that slavery would die out eventually, but couldn't abolish it immediately because of the important military value of the 4 border states that continued to practice it. However, the war was also fought to decide the political future of the USA. The South were being swamped by the growing North and so losing representation in central government. As they couldn't expand into the territories, they decided the next best thing would be to create their own country where slavery could retained.

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Actually what you aren't told is that slavery was already on it's way out at the time. The war had more to do with an unfair rate of taxation that was placed on the southern states in America. I'm sure that there were still slave owners in the south at the time, just as there were in the north, but it really wasn't the real reason for the war.

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Jeffari-al-Texani wrote:

Tarbox23 wrote: um, perhaps because when it came to fighting a war to determine whether slavery would continue, the confederate flag represented the losing side of "we love slaves"

just a guess.

Hmmm, if the Civil War was simply about determining whether or not slavery would continue, why were there still slaves in the Union?

A bit simplistic, don't you think?

The south was quite clear that it was seceding as a direct response to Lincoln's election, and that the reason for secession was to preserve the institution of slavery, which was perceived to be in peril with the election of a Republican to the Presidency.

Lincoln, on the other hand, was quite clear that he was fighting to keep the Union intact. He was not fighting to end slavery. The South, however, was fighting to preserve slavery.

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Brian Barker wrote: Actually what you aren't told is that slavery was already on it's way out at the time. The war had more to do with an unfair rate of taxation that was placed on the southern states in America. I'm sure that there were still slave owners in the south at the time, just as there were in the north, but it really wasn't the real reason for the war.

That would have been news to the leaders of the secession. Perhaps you should travel back in time and explain to them the real reason they seceded. That way, they can re-write their declarations of secession, and the history books can get it right....

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Comrade Shampanyov wrote:

Jeffari-al-Texani wrote:

Tarbox23 wrote: um, perhaps because when it came to fighting a war to determine whether slavery would continue, the confederate flag represented the losing side of "we love slaves"

just a guess.

Hmmm, if the Civil War was simply about determining whether or not slavery would continue, why were there still slaves in the Union?

A bit simplistic, don't you think?

The south was quite clear that it was seceding as a direct response to Lincoln's election, and that the reason for secession was to preserve the institution of slavery, which was perceived to be in peril with the election of a Republican to the Presidency.

Lincoln, on the other hand, was quite clear that he was fighting to keep the Union intact. He was not fighting to end slavery. The South, however, was fighting to preserve slavery.

Absolutely - southern secession made little sense in 1861 - there was no danger because pf Lincoln's election. The danger was from the growth of the North and its industry

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Tarbox23 wrote: some of the brits don't get why this is such a big issue to us americans, but it really is like having a swastika on your guitar and playing in europe.....

you walk into neighborhoods in the US with that guitar, and you are gonna get strung up, by blacks AND whites.

he should really add a swastika for full effect.

and maybe a picture of a 'n*gger hangin from a tree' on a tshirt next time if he ever plays live again.

as if they would ever have anything with nazi connotations...

btw - regarding your some of the brits don't get it comment, where do you think barney is from? just saying, like.

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Crikey, that Small Boy certainly put an end to the discussion in the similar thread two years ago. He must have poured Sarsons malt vinegar all over his pants that day to have worked himself up into such a lather.

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FtotheDoubleOff wrote: People LOOOOVE to pretend to be offended. On behalf of other people.
:rolleyes:

On behalf of other people, I am offended by this comment!

OK, yes, you're right, especially in the US.

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JonnyMac wrote: He's just exercising his 5th amendment rights. :evil4:

:scratch: Due process of law?

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Comrade Shampanyov wrote:

Jeffari-al-Texani wrote:

Tarbox23 wrote: um, perhaps because when it came to fighting a war to determine whether slavery would continue, the confederate flag represented the losing side of "we love slaves"

just a guess.

Hmmm, if the Civil War was simply about determining whether or not slavery would continue, why were there still slaves in the Union?

A bit simplistic, don't you think?

The south was quite clear that it was seceding as a direct response to Lincoln's election, and that the reason for secession was to preserve the institution of slavery, which was perceived to be in peril with the election of a Republican to the Presidency.

Lincoln, on the other hand, was quite clear that he was fighting to keep the Union intact. He was not fighting to end slavery. The South, however, was fighting to preserve slavery.

Slavery, though a part of the reason for secession, was not the the whole reason though Comrade. The Civil War was the final deciding factor to the issue that had plagued the States from the birth of the Constitution: which has more power, state government or federal government?

Yes they went to war because of Lincoln's election, but because he was a strong federalist. The north had lttle need for slavery as it didn't impact thier industry, so took the high road. Slavery was instrumental to southern economy. The federal government had taxed the South so that it was economically already not doing well and pulling slavery out would make the economy collapse. Secession was already in the minds of people long before slavery became an issue, it was the needle that broke the camel's back.

The war stems from the feud between Hamilton, who believed that there needed to be a strong central government - Federalists and Jefferson, who believed that States should have more power to run themselves - Republicans.

People need to start looking at history from 1776-1861, not just the narrow scope of just before the war. The civil war wasn't about the South having a moral stand on slavery. Many in the South were against slavery and fought on the side of the Confederate States - General Lee, the commanding general, freed his slaves before the war.

It sounds so much nicer in primary school to say it was about slavery, then there are no questions if the war was correct. If it was mentioned that it was a fight over power, then people would still be split today on if it was correct.

The war was the worst thing to do, and pulling slavery out the way they did it caused many problems. It brought with it carpet-baggers and a collapse of an economy. It brought about the racism we have today, that just doesn't seem to die. If slavery died naturally, I don't think there would be the racial problems we have today in the South.

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next history lesson:

England's oppressive past.

Any lecturers?:evil4:

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