RECYCLE

£50 Note wrote:

john carrington wrote: oh i realise its not the done thing, but they still sound superb. i've compared them to some of my originals and your M4A's and they're fine otherwise i wouldn't have bothered. probably not up to audio buff standards but no noticeable deteriation to my ears on my hi-fi. kept the M4A on the pc natch

Much to my surprise, we've not heard a peep from anyone official about this project - either positive or negative. They're certainly aware of it, so I'm assuming the silence=consent. Once we've finished all 20 singles and given the record label a poke to say "hey, we did all the work for you - please manufacture this box set" I might just release the FLAC sets into the wild.

Oh, and, if I got a life you wouldn't have all this music to listen to in pristene condition.

well this is a tricky one. On the one hand i don't begrudge new order looking after their rights musically, especially since they've been less strict than 99% of other bands. On the other hand, like a lot of people on here i suspect, i have all the 12" singles anyway on vinyl, plus versions of all the albums on 3 or 4 different formats, so i did my bit helping to keep the Hacienda open:) FLACs may be a step too far though, considering new order licenced these recordings to people who obviously paid money to make money.

And don't get me wrong i'm glad you haven't got a life. Just shocked at the level of perfectionism - i would have given up, and gone down the pub.

yes, they have :nod:

Yes, they did. 50 euros in french shops (each). But i was more thinking of the singles. Try to find the remixes 12" at a fair price outside UK.

Bruno Republic wrote:

piliña wrote:

Almost all the regular PSB 12" have been released onto cd, especially the ones you've mentioned above... some are hard to find, but still... or you can always look for the Aurally CD's...

Regular 12"s yes, but many remix singles have never been issued on CD. The Aurally bootlegs are needle-drops which have been cleaned-up (better than lousy MP3s, but still not as good quality as proper CD). There are scores of promo-only mixes which have only appeared on scarce vinyl pressings which go for over $100 now.

And don't count mixes only available on white label or tapes like the remaining Kevin Saunderson mixes of Go West, morales long remix of IDKWYW, etc.

£50 Note wrote:

FWIW, Ceremony has been downloaded the most, at just under 1500 times - and that's just by people who were savvy enough to find it on the web. Can you imagine if Recycle was available in the shops? A run of 3000-4000 20-disc boxes priced at £100 is a substantial profit for the band.

That doesn't surprise me, since the original recording of Ceremony is probably the most difficult-to-obtain and desireable thing in the entire set.

With physical media sales continuing to erode, the only thing people will still pay for are quality niche items. Witness the unexpected popularity of the recent Beatles mono box set -- a top-notch job in terms of sound quality and packaging, with incredible attention to detail right down to the typesetting on the spines and how the sleeves are folded -- or the Pet Shop Boys 11 x 12" edition of Yes: very expensive, limited to 300 copies, and sold out before it was even officially announced.

Personally, I'd fold the two BNL singles into the regular Factory releases (EGG + Procession, TLU + Murder) to make it 18 discs. This would allow the option of splitting it up into 3 x 6CD sets. Then again, at this point it would probably make most sense to put it all in one box, since the only people who are buying now are the collectors who want everything.

Bruno Republic wrote: Personally, I'd fold the two BNL singles into the regular Factory releases (EGG + Procession, TLU + Murder) to make it 18 discs. This would allow the option of splitting it up into 3 x 6CD sets. Then again, at this point it would probably make most sense to put it all in one box, since the only people who are buying now are the collectors who want everything.

Ah, but you're forgetting something - to many people, the packaging is equally as important as the music. If this is going to be a specialty/niche product, then why not pull out all the stops? Include all 20 singles, the alternate sleeve for Ceremony, a book, some badges, and a slightly more inclusive edition that's been autographed by each of the four prinicples. People (me included) would pay a lot of money for something like that. The most deluxe version of Pixies' forthcoming Minotaur box will sell for $450, and the audio isn't even remastered.

£50 Note wrote:

Bruno Republic wrote: Personally, I'd fold the two BNL singles into the regular Factory releases (EGG + Procession, TLU + Murder) to make it 18 discs. This would allow the option of splitting it up into 3 x 6CD sets. Then again, at this point it would probably make most sense to put it all in one box, since the only people who are buying now are the collectors who want everything.

Ah, but you're forgetting something - to many people, the packaging is equally as importnat as the music.

I'd still include that. The Ceremony 7" sleeve could be the inner for EGG, and Murder could be the inner for TLU, or perhaps as a gatefold, since they nicely match.

Another option would be to package the discs in a 12" size box, and include a booklet with full-size reproductions of the original sleeves. Isn't the Kraftwerk box set like this? (I honestly don't know, I haven't seen it yet)

Don't know about anyone else, but bring on TBTHOG.

I still remember buying the 12" just before my GCSEs in May 88, and then buying the CD gatefold single from HMV in Newcastle in the summer.

I also had the Saville 'ladders' design T-shirt.

Anyway, TBTHOG probably sealed the deal with me and New Order - a long, lasting, satisfying love affair.

I can't wait to hear what £50 note and Bruno have done with the package

Bruno Republic wrote: Another option would be to package the discs in a 12" size box, and include a booklet with full-size reproductions of the original sleeves. Isn't the Kraftwerk box set like this? (I honestly don't know, I haven't seen it yet)

The promo copy I got in '05 was a 5" square about 2" deep.

The Palatine box set was sized as a 12" square. A plastic mold in the box could hold 4 compartments of 5 CDs each, with room on top for a large book. That would look fantastic.

£50 Note wrote:

The promo copy I got in '05 was a 5" square about 2" deep.

Seems they've turned things up a notch. Go to http://klingklang.de/ and click on the Der Katalog icon, and it looks like quite an elaborate package indeed.

Bruno Republic wrote:

£50 Note wrote:

The promo copy I got in '05 was a 5" square about 2" deep.

Seems they've turned things up a notch. Go to http://klingklang.de/ and click on the Der Katalog icon, and it looks like quite an elaborate package indeed.

Excellent! I can't wait to get my copy. :)

£50 Note wrote:

Chris Nash wrote: Comments I've heard today have suddenly fallen into place...

Care to elaborate?

Hooky said something in a recent interview about bootleggers being the worry that kept him awake at night. Why that comment, why now? My suspicion is he meant Recycle because there are not a lot of high profile unauthorized releases at the moment (except for the Hannett tapes CDs).

We can't be blamed for poor sales of the reissues because the label screwed that up all by themselves. People WANT to buy a quality product, but a quality product is not what was offered.

No one is making a dime off this project, but the support has been universal in that if it were manufactured, people would buy it.

I sincerely hope that Hooky, Barney, Stephen, and Gillian understand that we're not trying to take anything away from them. There are hundreds of thousands of people all over the world who have an emotional investment in New Order's music, and they just want to listen to it and enjoy it in a way that is befitting of the band's legacy, and also befitting of the audio quality that's available in 2009.

Like I said, I've not heard a peep from anyone official about Recycle, but it's not like I'm hard to find - I use the same handle all over the web, including my own website, and there's an e-mail link right on the front page.

FWIW, Ceremony has been downloaded the most, at just under 1500 times - and that's just by people who were savvy enough to find it on the web. Can you imagine if Recycle was available in the shops? A run of 3000-4000 20-disc boxes priced at £100 is a substantial profit for the band.

You are right form beggining to end

john carrington wrote:

Bruno Republic wrote:

john carrington wrote: just like to add my thanks as well. I'm downloading them and then converting to mp3...

Why? Most everything nowadays plays AAC/MP4. Even my ghetto cell phone does. It's not some esoteric proprietary format.

well my expensive but old hi-fi doesn't play them. I have 99% of these tracks anyway. this just allows me to put the tracks i want, in the order i want, on a cd. If i wanted to do the same currently i'd be switching between vinyl/cd/tape like a madman, and some of them aren't the best quality now they're 20 odd years old

If you find the right CD burning program, you don't need to convert the files to mp3. I use Nero and it lets you drag and drop pretty much any kind of audio file into a que, then burns them all onto a audio disc. There's a few that are free out there, just gotta Google around.

Then there's this MP4 plug-in for MP3 Gain that lets you tweak the volumes of albums without "normalizing" (brick walling and resampling) the files. With that, you can throw together a handful of files from various albums and have the volume be consistent.

twp wrote:

£50 Note wrote:

Chris Nash wrote: Comments I've heard today have suddenly fallen into place...

Care to elaborate?

Hooky said something in a recent interview about bootleggers being the worry that kept him awake at night. Why that comment, why now? My suspicion is he meant Recycle because there are not a lot of high profile unauthorized releases at the moment (except for the Hannett tapes CDs).

We can't be blamed for poor sales of the reissues because the label screwed that up all by themselves. People WANT to buy a quality product, but a quality product is not what was offered.

No one is making a dime off this project, but the support has been universal in that if it were manufactured, people would buy it.

I sincerely hope that Hooky, Barney, Stephen, and Gillian understand that we're not trying to take anything away from them. There are hundreds of thousands of people all over the world who have an emotional investment in New Order's music, and they just want to listen to it and enjoy it in a way that is befitting of the band's legacy, and also befitting of the audio quality that's available in 2009.

Like I said, I've not heard a peep from anyone official about Recycle, but it's not like I'm hard to find - I use the same handle all over the web, including my own website, and there's an e-mail link right on the front page.

FWIW, Ceremony has been downloaded the most, at just under 1500 times - and that's just by people who were savvy enough to find it on the web. Can you imagine if Recycle was available in the shops? A run of 3000-4000 20-disc boxes priced at £100 is a substantial profit for the band.

You are right form beggining to end

Just not the '£100' bit,I know what you're saying and a deluxe version would surely be worth it,but it would need to be kept in the realms of affordability for the whole thing to be worth it,and for Warners to sell.I mean,once it becomes apparent that it isn't selling as much or as quickly as they'd hoped,the price would eventually come down anyway,so far better to start it off at a more reasonable price,that way they would recoup their costs far quicker.That's what they want,you know how they'd work.For what it would cost to produce,and all the mastering & fixing has been done already for them,£50 would be a far more acceptable & reasonable price.I'm sure it would fly.Warners,get it fookin' sorted!!

kel wrote:

Just not the '£100' bit,I know what you're saying and a deluxe version would surely be worth it,but it would need to be kept in the realms of affordability for the whole thing to be worth it,and for Warners to sell.I mean,once it becomes apparent that it isn't selling as much or as quickly as they'd hoped,the price would eventually come down anyway,so far better to start it off at a more reasonable price,that way they would recoup their costs far quicker.That's what they want,you know how they'd work.For what it would cost to produce,and all the mastering & fixing has been done already for them,£50 would be a far more acceptable & reasonable price.I'm sure it would fly.Warners,get it fookin' sorted!!

For 18 or 20 discs with full artwork, it would need to cost more than £50 if they were to make any money off of it. No profit, no point. Condense them all to four discs and offer no artwork, and then maybe £50 would be do-able. But who wants that? People who just want the music will simply download it.

From a business perspective, it makes far more sense to do a limited edition. First of all, it allows them to determine their manufacturing costs up-front. Second, it helps fuel demand for them. Finally, the traditional marketing rules of physical media have gone out the window. It doesn't matter how cheap you make it, because it will still cost more than free. Free is how a lot of people get their music now, and thus they value all music at $0.00. So you have to appeal to the dedicated collector, produce a top-quality product, and charge for it accordingly.

Bruno Republic wrote: Condense them all to four discs and offer no artwork, and then maybe £50 would be do-able. But who wants that? People who just want the music will simply download it.

Condense them all to four discs (using two 2-CD cases like DM Singles 86>98), include a separate booklet containing all the artwork so that a single page has a front cover on one side and a back cover on the other, then cram the two disc cases and booklet in a cardboard sleeve. Problem solved.

Re-Member wrote: Condense them all to four discs (using two 2-CD cases like DM Singles 86>98), include a separate booklet containing all the artwork so that a single page has a front cover on one side and a back cover on the other, then cram the two disc cases and booklet in a cardboard sleeve. Problem solved.

Honestly, that's not what I'd want. That's kinda half-assed, just like everything else the label has done. That's also not as fitting as the singles boxes the Smiths, Depeche Mode, The Clash, Blondie, etc., have done.

£50 Note wrote:

Re-Member wrote: Condense them all to four discs (using two 2-CD cases like DM Singles 86>98), include a separate booklet containing all the artwork so that a single page has a front cover on one side and a back cover on the other, then cram the two disc cases and booklet in a cardboard sleeve. Problem solved.

Honestly, that's not what I'd want. That's kinda half-assed, just like everything else the label has done. That's also not as fitting as the singles boxes the Smiths, Depeche Mode, The Clash, Blondie, etc., have done.

I'm just looking at it from a cost point of view. Obviously having an official box set with individual singles and artwork included would be great (your Recycle project is already proving that), but considering how Rhino already invested money not once, but twice in New Order box sets that both got screwed up, having a condensed four disc set with a booklet of artwork is the very least they can do to lay New Order's back catalog to rest with some kind of dignity and still come out with a profit. But honestly, everyone here knows deep down inside that they'd still screw it up somehow.

Bruno Republic wrote:

kel wrote:

Just not the '£100' bit,I know what you're saying and a deluxe version would surely be worth it,but it would need to be kept in the realms of affordability for the whole thing to be worth it,and for Warners to sell.I mean,once it becomes apparent that it isn't selling as much or as quickly as they'd hoped,the price would eventually come down anyway,so far better to start it off at a more reasonable price,that way they would recoup their costs far quicker.That's what they want,you know how they'd work.For what it would cost to produce,and all the mastering & fixing has been done already for them,£50 would be a far more acceptable & reasonable price.I'm sure it would fly.Warners,get it fookin' sorted!!

For 18 or 20 discs with full artwork, it would need to cost more than £50 if they were to make any money off of it. No profit, no point. Condense them all to four discs and offer no artwork, and then maybe £50 would be do-able. But who wants that? People who just want the music will simply download it.

From a business perspective, it makes far more sense to do a limited edition. First of all, it allows them to determine their manufacturing costs up-front. Second, it helps fuel demand for them. Finally, the traditional marketing rules of physical media have gone out the window. It doesn't matter how cheap you make it, because it will still cost more than free. Free is how a lot of people get their music now, and thus they value all music at $0.00. So you have to appeal to the dedicated collector, produce a top-quality product, and charge for it accordingly.

Why? CD's cost fook all to produce,£50 Note has already sorted the mastering etc. for them,that only leaves packaging,artwork and marketing,fifty quid-ish is more than enough & it would fly.By making it too expensive,you are actually forcing people into downloading it illegally,you want people to actually buy it,but I do agree,I want it to be quality & not half-arsed so as not to completely miss the point

I think both of you are missing the point.

I'm not going to buy a 4-disc set, and I'm the target demographic. I'm a collector. Things like that only work for bands that have A and B-sides, but not lots of additional remixes.

Every one of New Order's 80's contemporaries have done the remaster route/singles box properly. Even the Joy Division remasters put the New Order ones to shame.

Anything less than a comprehensive, multi-disc (meaning each single on an individual disc) set would be a waste of time and money for everyone involved. Considering the colossal screw-up of the reissues, it would have to be a deluxe box set fetish item to get any of my money. You're also forgetting that from the outset Recycle was planned as a multi-disc singles box. Anything less would be yet another example of selling the band short.

No one is twisting your arm to make you buy it, but there are a lot more of us (meaning collectors willing to fork over a lot of cash), than there are of the fans who would buy yet another half-assed, measly 4-disc product.

Besides, there's more music than would fit on 4 discs, and how are you going to split them up when you're halfway through one single and have to put part of the tracks on the next disc because they won't all fit? You have to look at the big picture. You're talking about something that's just an archive of all the tracks from the singles, and not something that's actually a listenable, engaging experience.

In the words of the great prophet "if you're gonna do it, do it right."

kel wrote:

Why? CD's cost fook all to produce,£50 Note has already sorted the mastering etc.

Actually, I am the one who has done all the audio work on this project.

kel wrote:

By making it too expensive,you are actually forcing people into downloading it illegally,you want people to actually buy it,

The problem is that no price is cheap enough to make people choose buying product vs downloading it. It wouldn't matter if you charged $3 for the whole thing, if it was just a few discs thrown together, people would still download it anyway. The MP3 has devalued music to a net worth of 0.00 for most people. You can't sell for less than free. What you can do is create a unique physical product so that the presentation makes it worth it. Making it a limited edition both encourages people to get it now and not later, as well as adding a rarity/value factor. The only money to be made is in dedicated collectors, who are willing to pay for a quality job. Everyone else? They've already downloaded it.

TBTHOG is now online.

'Touched By The Hand Of God' I am

Bruno Republic wrote:

kel wrote:

Why? CD's cost fook all to produce,£50 Note has already sorted the mastering etc.

Actually, I am the one who has done all the audio work on this project.

kel wrote:

By making it too expensive,you are actually forcing people into downloading it illegally,you want people to actually buy it,

The problem is that no price is cheap enough to make people choose buying product vs downloading it. It wouldn't matter if you charged $3 for the whole thing, if it was just a few discs thrown together, people would still download it anyway. The MP3 has devalued music to a net worth of 0.00 for most people. You can't sell for less than free. What you can do is create a unique physical product so that the presentation makes it worth it. Making it a limited edition both encourages people to get it now and not later, as well as adding a rarity/value factor. The only money to be made is in dedicated collectors, who are willing to pay for a quality job. Everyone else? They've already downloaded it.

I didn't mean to offend,I just mentioned £50 Note as being the instigator & person behind it in general,I know there are other people involved,& for that,I am extremely grateful. As for the product being only produced for & aimed at collectors,let's say a 30-disc limited edition,deluxe set @ £150,there's no way most people could either afford,or would want to,pay for that right out,I for one am a massive fan & have been for over 25 years,& would dearly love something like that,but at the moment because of redundancy,there's no way I can afford that.So what do you do,let down that entire fanbase in the same boat or similar? That just would not be fair.However,I do admit that an alternative to it is not easy to come up with,so where would it leave us? & like most of you have said,after what has happened with the remasters,we wouldn't want Warners/Rhino behind it anyway because they would just fook it up.Opinions on this will run & run,but I think most of us agree,that it is worth doing & doing right,just to what degree is the contentious point

kel wrote:

Bruno Republic wrote:

kel wrote:

Why? CD's cost fook all to produce,£50 Note has already sorted the mastering etc.

Actually, I am the one who has done all the audio work on this project.

kel wrote:

By making it too expensive,you are actually forcing people into downloading it illegally,you want people to actually buy it,

The problem is that no price is cheap enough to make people choose buying product vs downloading it. It wouldn't matter if you charged $3 for the whole thing, if it was just a few discs thrown together, people would still download it anyway. The MP3 has devalued music to a net worth of 0.00 for most people. You can't sell for less than free. What you can do is create a unique physical product so that the presentation makes it worth it. Making it a limited edition both encourages people to get it now and not later, as well as adding a rarity/value factor. The only money to be made is in dedicated collectors, who are willing to pay for a quality job. Everyone else? They've already downloaded it.

I didn't mean to offend,I just mentioned £50 Note as being the instigator & person behind it in general,I know there are other people involved,& for that,I am extremely grateful. As for the product being only produced for & aimed at collectors,let's say a 30-disc limited edition,deluxe set @ £150,there's no way most people could either afford,or would want to,pay for that right out,I for one am a massive fan & have been for over 25 years,& would dearly love something like that,but at the moment because of redundancy,there's no way I can afford that.So what do you do,let down that entire fanbase in the same boat or similar? That just would not be fair.However,I do admit that an alternative to it is not easy to come up with,so where would it leave us? & like most of you have said,after what has happened with the remasters,we wouldn't want Warners/Rhino behind it anyway because they would just fook it up.Opinions on this will run & run,but I think most of us agree,that it is worth doing & doing right,just to what degree is the contentious point

A solution could be: a deluxe boxset at say £150 and a much cheaper Itunes mp3 equivalent.

Ben wrote:

A solution could be: a deluxe boxset at say £150 and a much cheaper Itunes mp3 equivalent.

I would say it's a bit late for that

£50 Note wrote: TBTHOG is now online.

keep going,

excellent work!!!!

one of my all time favorites..

i still like the mix from the japanese salvation the best though..

7:59 Touched by the Hand of God (12" version) +/*** exclusive version..

be seeing you +1

-1 wrote: i still like the mix from the japanese salvation the best though..

7:59 Touched by the Hand of God (12" version) +/*** exclusive version

That's coming later.

£50 Note wrote: I think both of you are missing the point.

I'm not going to buy a 4-disc set, and I'm the target demographic. I'm a collector. Things like that only work for bands that have A and B-sides, but not lots of additional remixes.

Every one of New Order's 80's contemporaries have done the remaster route/singles box properly. Even the Joy Division remasters put the New Order ones to shame.

Anything less than a comprehensive, multi-disc (meaning each single on an individual disc) set would be a waste of time and money for everyone involved. Considering the colossal screw-up of the reissues, it would have to be a deluxe box set fetish item to get any of my money. You're also forgetting that from the outset Recycle was planned as a multi-disc singles box. Anything less would be yet another example of selling the band short.

No one is twisting your arm to make you buy it, but there are a lot more of us (meaning collectors willing to fork over a lot of cash), than there are of the fans who would buy yet another half-assed, measly 4-disc product.

Besides, there's more music than would fit on 4 discs, and how are you going to split them up when you're halfway through one single and have to put part of the tracks on the next disc because they won't all fit? You have to look at the big picture. You're talking about something that's just an archive of all the tracks from the singles, and not something that's actually a listenable, engaging experience.

In the words of the great prophet "if you're gonna do it, do it right."

i agree with you 100% on what you said..

i've been putting this off for years, and you're doing it, and doing it right!!!

why can't we just donate(*pay*) you the money for getting a nice boxed set?

be seeing you +1

£50 Note wrote:

-1 wrote: i still like the mix from the japanese salvation the best though..

7:59 Touched by the Hand of God (12" version) +/*** exclusive version

That's coming later.

EXCELLENT, i knew you wouldn't let us down....

again, outstanding work to you and your team!

be seeing you +1

I've just downloaded the lot and I'm speachless. Shell-shocked even (pun intended). This is by far and wide the finest New Order "product" I've ever heard of.

£50 Note: I love you. I want to marry you and have your children. The Nobel prize committee would be well advised to take the peace prize away from Obama and give it to you instead!