a NEW Order after Electronic ??

Might open up a can of worms here.. but here goes

Barneys best and most on point lyrics came through ELECTRONIC.

It was some of his best work over and above that he does with NEW ORDER

Case in point.

what a way to open an album...

Forbidden City

"Theres not a hope, when your in this kind of mood, too much to drink, and not enough to lose"

Cruelly compelling listening, delivered in such a way as to make you WANT to believe it can only get more twisted and reflective!! Really kicks off Raise The Pressure to a T and although the album doesnt really "go" anywhere like many of the New Order Albums do, ie: Low Life, it never drifts from its bittersweet purpose.

Dont get me wrong New Order has produced sublime work from Barney and the gang, but with the freedom of Electronic he took his lyrics one step deeper.... :D

thoughts welcome :)

Originally posted by .I-D. Might open up a can of worms here.. but here goes Barneys best and most on point lyrics came through ELECTRONIC.It was some of his best work over and above that he does with NEW ORDERCase in point.what a way to open an album...Forbidden City"Theres not a hope, when your in this kind of mood, too much to drink, and not enough to lose"Cruelly compelling listening, delivered in such a way as to make you WANT to believe it can only get more twisted and reflective!! Really kicks off Raise The Pressure to a T and although the album doesnt really "go" anywhere like many of the New Order Albums do, ie: Low Life, it never drifts from its bittersweet purpose.Dont get me wrong New Order has produced sublime work from Barney and the gang, but with the freedom of Electronic he took his lyrics one step deeper.... :Dthoughts welcome :)

disagree. in the early days, barney's lyrics were consistantly good and insightful. i've listened to PCL and most of the lyrics (except age of consent) were pretty good. they could have been right up there with the quality of ian's lyrics. but then, after around the late 80s, he started to write some pretty silly stuff. by the mid-90s, it was a mix bag of good and bad. look at some of the electronic lyrics closely...idiot country is hilarious! i've got a nail on the floor and it don't hurt me no more!

i think the insightfulness and the quality of the lyrics maybe is dependent on the mood of the song. if the mood is pretty light and energetic, you're likely gonna get the lyrics that most of us fans cringe on (see crystal or rock the shack). if the mood is more serious and introspective, then you get a bit more insight (see special).

the innovation thing...well, people are always gonna peg NO as innovative cuz they were the first to merge dance and rock in a accessable way. electronic's style in music is so very similar to NO, but you'd never say electronic was innovative cuz electronic didn't do what NO did first.

Originally posted by snucker > Originally posted by .I-D.> Might open up a can of worms here.. but here goes > > Barneys best and most on point lyrics came through ELECTRONIC.> > It was some of his best work over and above that he does with NEW ORDER> > > Case in point.> > what a way to open an album...> > Forbidden City> > > "Theres not a hope, when your in this kind of mood, too much to drink, and not enough to lose"> > Cruelly compelling listening, delivered in such a way as to make you WANT to believe it can only get more twisted and reflective!! Really kicks off Raise The Pressure to a T and although the album doesnt really "go" anywhere like many of the New Order Albums do, ie: Low Life, it never drifts from its bittersweet purpose.> > > Dont get me wrong New Order has produced sublime work from Barney and the gang, but with the freedom of Electronic he took his lyrics one step deeper.... :D> > thoughts welcome :)

disagree. in the early days, barney's lyrics were consistantly good and insightful. i've listened to PCL and most of the lyrics (except age of consent) were pretty good. they could have been right up there with the quality of ian's lyrics. but then, after around the late 80s, he started to write some pretty silly stuff. by the mid-90s, it was a mix bag of good and bad. look at some of the electronic lyrics closely...idiot country is hilarious! i've got a nail on the floor and it don't hurt me no more!

i think the insightfulness and the quality of the lyrics maybe is dependent on the mood of the song. if the mood is pretty light and energetic, you're likely gonna get the lyrics that most of us fans cringe on (see crystal or rock the shack). if the mood is more serious and introspective, then you get a bit more insight (see special).

the innovation thing...well, people are always gonna peg NO as innovative cuz they were the first to merge dance and rock in a accessable way. electronic's style in music is so very similar to NO, but you'd never say electronic was innovative cuz electronic didn't do what NO did first.
True, but it was done with the benefit of Order guidance :)and despite that something to be proud of i still think Barney peaked lyrically during spells with Electronic!

We all know Electronic was a "plaything" so this isnt a case of winners or losers, just what role they played in the history of the bands members :D

Been away for a bit listening to a lot of neworder and electronic on holiday so a great receipe for bumping up my threads a bit Seb!

It of course is an individual opinion, the first two albums i think are streets ahead of TT as many people agree (although the title track TT remains one of my all time faves to this day!)

Felt as Chris mentioned that without the constraints and expectations of the band and perhaps a slight subconscious duty to Ian... that Barneys lyrics touched new ground with Electronic and he took them where perhaps he was unable to take NewOrder, I think he talks about freedom in writing in either Friday at the Dome interview or the Prozac documentary, i'll have to dig them out and quote :)

Good point about the other side projects Chris..? anyone have any thoughts???

Hooky always tries to grab a mic at any opportunity at NewOrder gigs maybe he went off to sideproject territory because he wanted prime centre stage singing duties!!

Well, personaly, I love the lyrics of early New Order songs: Temptation, Hurt, EGG, Thieves like us, Pefect kiss, even Blue Monday. I love their apparent lack of sense and the way they are unstructured . The lyrics of most Low-life songs are simply perfect .

Nowadays, the lyrics (as well as the music) seem to be tailor-made for classic pop songs (verse and chorus) .

I admit however that, since then, Barney has written some gems . The opening track of Raise the Pressure is indeed a cracker, it blows your ears from the very first words. True Faith, Dream Attack, Vanishing Point, Special, Get the Message, Reality, Warning sign, are just other examples, i.m.h.o.

I think that if you compare Electronic and New Order you are looking at things from the wrong angle: what you should be looking at is pre-Electronic era New Order and Electronic-era New Order. As I wrote on another thread Bernard can write great lyrics if he approaches lyric writing in the right way and is on form but if he doesn't approach it in the right way or isn't on form then he writes things that rhyme but make little or no sense (there's something wrong with Crystal's lyrics but I can't put my, ahem, finger on it) or are laughable (such as "I've had the Devil round for tea" on 60 Miles An Hour). However, Bernard was like that before he formed Electronic, he was like that when working on Electronic material and he still is like that. The real difference between NO before Electronic and NO after the formation of Electronic is their approach to the music.

When New Order was the only band that Bernard, Peter, Gillian and Stephen were members of if they wanted to experiment they had to do it within New Order and some of the band's best work is the result of musical experimentation (the most obvious examples being Blue Monday and Technique). However, once Bernard formed Electronic that gave him a second outlet so if he wanted to do something that the other three didn't want to do or that he didn't want the other three to be involved in he could do it in Electronic. Hooky soon realised that if Bernard was working on Electronic then New Order weren't going to be making music for a while so he formed Revenge which allowed him to do things he didn't usually do in New Order such as write lyrics and sing lead vocals. Gillian and Stephen then formed The Other Two which allowed Gillian to sing lead vocals. So instead of experimenting together they experimented separately, albeit in some cases with different people from outside NO, and produced music that to varying degrees bore some resemblance to New Order but was also different (such as Electronic's "Raise The Pressure" that was like Technique but used lusher sounds).

Whilst these non-NO projects produced some great tracks (and in Electronic's case a great album) when they reformed to make music as New Order again in the early 1990's they didn't seem to approach it in the same experimental way they had before, perhaps because they had done the things they wanted to outside NO or because they wanted to do other things but thought that they would be more likely to do them in the way they wanted outside NO, and the result was Republic (which I like and will defend but which I concede is not their best album). After they spent a few more years apart and made more great non-NO music when they reformed in the late 1990's they were even less inclined to experiment and played a series of gigs without writing any new material. When they finally went back into the studio experimentation was even less of a priority (and what experimentation there was seems to have been limited to bringing in new producers and guest stars) and the result was Get Ready, an album which seems to have been written and produced with the intention of creating or recreating an unmistakable trademark New Order sound.

If you like New Order because you want to hear them make that unmistakable trademark New Order sound then Get Ready will have been your cup of tea. However, if (like me) you like New Order because they try to do things that they haven't done before and that no one else has done before then Get Ready will have been a disappointment. If their next album is very similar to Get Ready I will be even more disappointed and I will hope that after that instead of making a third very similar album they will take another break from New Order and there will be a fourth Electronic album on which Bernard and Johnny push themselves and each other in a different direction again.

Originally posted by Fingers I think that if you compare Electronic and New Order you are looking at things from the wrong angle: what you should be looking at is pre-Electronic era New Order and Electronic-era New Order. As I wrote on another thread Bernard can write great lyrics if he approaches lyric writing in the right way and is on form but if he doesn't approach it in the right way or isn't on form then he writes things that rhyme but make little or no sense (there's something wrong with Crystal's lyrics but I can't put my, ahem, finger on it) or are laughable (such as "I've had the Devil round for tea" on 60 Miles An Hour). However, Bernard was like that before he formed Electronic, he was like that when working on Electronic material and he still is like that. The real difference between NO before Electronic and NO after the formation of Electronic is their approach to the music.When New Order was the only band that Bernard, Peter, Gillian and Stephen were members of if they wanted to experiment they had to do it within New Order and some of the band's best work is the result of musical experimentation (the most obvious examples being Blue Monday and Technique). However, once Bernard formed Electronic that gave him a second outlet so if he wanted to do something that the other three didn't want to do or that he didn't want the other three to be involved in he could do it in Electronic. Hooky soon realised that if Bernard was working on Electronic then New Order weren't going to be making music for a while so he formed Revenge which allowed him to do things he didn't usually do in New Order such as write lyrics and sing lead vocals. Gillian and Stephen then formed The Other Two which allowed Gillian to sing lead vocals. So instead of experimenting together they experimented separately, albeit in some cases with different people from outside NO, and produced music that to varying degrees bore some resemblance to New Order but was also different (such as Electronic's "Raise The Pressure" that was like Technique but used lusher sounds).Whilst these non-NO projects produced some great tracks (and in Electronic's case a great album) when they reformed to make music as New Order again in the early 1990's they didn't seem to approach it in the same experimental way they had before, perhaps because they had done the things they wanted to outside NO or because they wanted to do other things but thought that they would be more likely to do them in the way they wanted outside NO, and the result was Republic (which I like and will defend but which I concede is not their best album). After they spent a few more years apart and made more great non-NO music when they reformed in the late 1990's they were even less inclined to experiment and played a series of gigs without writing any new material. When they finally went back into the studio experimentation was even less of a priority (and what experimentation there was seems to have been limited to bringing in new producers and guest stars) and the result was Get Ready, an album which seems to have been written and produced with the intention of creating or recreating an unmistakable trademark New Order sound.If you like New Order because you want to hear them make that unmistakable trademark New Order sound then Get Ready will have been your cup of tea. However, if (like me) you like New Order because they try to do things that they haven't done before and that no one else has done before then Get Ready will have been a disappointment. If their next album is very similar to Get Ready I will be even more disappointed and I will hope that after that instead of making a third very similar album they will take another break from New Order and there will be a fourth Electronic album on which Bernard and Johnny push themselves and each other in a different direction again.

Insightful words there Fingers :)

Has Barney now "peaked" with the opportunity to allow his thoughts to much more dominate a record with Electronic has he settled back much into routine on Get Ready???

Think im gonna give Get Ready another spin soon to give it some more thought!

Has Barney peaked? I think he has peaked more than once: his first peak was around the time of Blue Monday and Thieves Like Us, he also peaked on Technique and Getting Away With It (although his form arguably didn't dip between those releases) and in the 1990's he peaked quite a few times (the first Electronic album, Regret, Young Offender and Raise The Pressure). I think he could peak again. However, he won't peak again unless he really pushes himself or someone else really pushes him. The problem is that I don't think he will push himself and I don't think Hooky, Stephen or Steve Osborne can or will push him.

On other threads I've read people discussing how New Order don't play the old songs they want to hear because no-one has been able to or had the time to re-programme new equipment to play the relevant parts. This is worrying. In the 1980's New Order made brilliant innovative music using not just equipment that was new but techniques that were new, sometimes using equipment they had built or customised themselves so that it met their requirements. Whilst I've never got heavily involved in making music as computers have become cheaper and more powerful they have also become simpler to use: just compare operating an old DOS PC using only a keyboard with using a modern PC with a choice of icon-based operating systems and programs that you operate with a mouse and/or keyboard and which ask you if you're sure that you want to do something or if you want help with doing something. If New Order made lots of brilliant music in the 1980's despite the problems posed by the technology they were using at the time they should be making more music that is even better with the vastly-improved and much more reliable technology that is at their disposal now. They should be but they aren't because musically Get Ready was a step backwards.

So again it comes back to the members of New Order (and in particular Bernard because he is the band's leader and because he has proved through his work in Electronic that he is the most musically ambitious) pushing themselves and each other or someone else pushing them all. Now they have been back together for a while they may feel confident enough to try to take a step forwards musically of their own accord on the next album and I hope they do. However, I doubt they will, partly because they may not be up to speed with developments in musical technology (although Raise The Pressure and Twisted Tenderness suggest that Bernard probably is) but mainly because they seem to have settled on a way they think they ought to sound. I think that what New Order need to do next is to listen to lots of new music as they did in the early 1980's (although they shouldn't limit themselves to dance music - they would do well to listen to how Radiohead, the Flaming Lips and, ahem, Jamiroquai are using technology to help them turn their ideas into reality) and to find a really good producer who will push them but who can help them with any new ideas they want to try (such as Nigel Godrich, Dave Fridmann, Andrew Weatherall, Danny Saber or Johnny Marr). However, if they don't do anything some time in the next few years Bernard may come to the conclusion that when he put Electronic on hold to return to New Order he left a band that was going in the right direction (musically, if not commercially) and rejoined one that was going in the wrong direction.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis Fingers, where's yer profile?

Yes you talk some great subjects with knowledge and insight but FINGERS show us your HAND and take off your gloves first.:D

I have the feeling we've met Fingers before, don't you? Verrah good posts though.

Originally posted by Grigori Rasputin, the mad mystic of Petrograd now...why are you people always trying to read something more into these things??? of course...if this is the same one that enjoys calling Uncle Al a knob end, I say we bash his head in with a bat as soon as possible!!!

So who the fuck is it ...am i missing out on some info...was this before i signed up?:D

I don't know who you think I am but I am not whoever any you think I am. I've not posted on this website using any name other than Fingers and I very very much doubt any of you have met me. I don't know who Uncle Al is (I have enough trouble remembering who anyone is and what anyone has posted on other threads) and if I'd called him a knob end I'd remember it (which I don't) and I'd own up (which I won't because I haven't). Besides, if I wanted to insult someone I'd call them something more imaginative than a "knob end" and probably something ten times longer. You are all barking up the wrong tree.

Quite apparent that the lyrics and NO sound took a hit on Republic. Regret and Everybody, Everywhere are outstanding IMHO even though the latter lacks the NO sound. I think what happened is that after Twisted Tenderness Barney discovered that one needs not spend 8 years in the studio to create an album. There's an interview with him talking about TT inwhich he relates how this was a good thing--the ability to go over to a bandmates house and work on the songs together. Get Ready is really NO letting their hair down, so to say, and getting back to the basics of music--songs that are easy to do, have a good beat and do not require a decade of studio time. Lyrically different to other NO albums, Crystal being the strongest NO lyric-like song and Run Wild the furthest away.

Originally posted by Fingers I don't know who you think I am but I am not whoever any you think I am. I've not posted on this website using any name other than Fingers and I very very much doubt any of you have met me. I don't know who Uncle Al is (I have enough trouble remembering who anyone is and what anyone has posted on other threads) and if I'd called him a knob end I'd remember it (which I don't) and I'd own up (which I won't because I haven't). Besides, if I wanted to insult someone I'd call them something more imaginative than a "knob end" and probably something ten times longer. You are all barking up the wrong tree.

Glad thats sorted :D but you do some GREAT posts.As long as your first name isn't JOHNNY,u wear pajamas and were in a band with GELDOF then NO problem.PS GRIGORI is a geek,so is SHUGZV and ROCKET is a complete idiot ROCKET MICK'S SON SPUTNIK

There are two other (thankfully short) things that I think are worth bearing in mind.

Bernard has been a member of three great bands (Joy Division, New Order and Electronic). Hooky and Stephen have obviously been in two great bands but I don't think Revenge, Monaco or The Other Two could be described as great (good but not great), Johnny Marr has been in two (The Smiths and Electronic) and I could probably think of more people who have been in two (Shaun Ryder, Mani and Dave Grohl spring to mind). I'm not sure I can think of anyone else who has been in three. A lot of people have had a career in the music business without being a member of a great band and most of those who are members of a band which becomes great either stay in that band to the bitter end or leave it and are never heard of again.

Bernard has been making music for about twenty five years. Whilst quite a few people in the music business have been making music for longer most of them (such as Bob Dylan, The Rolling Stones and Bruce Springsteen) haven't made much innovative music or changed what they do much over the decades. During his career Bernard has made a wide range of music (from Joy Division's Atmosphere to England/New Order's World In Motion) and the only person I can think of who has been anywhere near as adventurous is Bjork.

So whilst we can argue about whether or not the formation of Electronic has had a negative effect on New Order or whether or not Bernard has peaked we shouldn't forget that Bernard has one of the best track records in the music business and has been putting his heart and soul into his music for twenty five years.

No arguments from me there, Barneys peerless IMHO!!!!!

Bloody hell SHUGZV is your granny typing for you? :D

Shug, I admit that I may have been wrong to put Bob Dylan in the same bracket as other artists who have been around for longer than Bernard and I confess that I'm not a Dylan fan or expert. However, whilst Bob Dylan may be more versatile than I gave him credit for Bernard has been consistently successful in making both "guitar" music and "electronic" music in a way that I don't think anyone else has which is why I put him in a different category to Bob Dylan.

Originally posted by Fingers Shug, I admit that I may have been wrong to put Bob Dylan in the same bracket as other artists who have been around for longer than Bernard and I confess that I'm not a Dylan fan or expert. However, whilst Bob Dylan may be more versatile than I gave him credit for Bernard has been consistently successful in making both "guitar" music and "electronic" music in a way that I don't think anyone else has which is why I put him in a different category to Bob Dylan.

But surely you cannot omit MR DAVID BOWIE from this for he has scanned 5 decades changing and indeed influencing many artists including the ORDER.:D

How ya doing Shugzy me ole mucker :)

cant be talking about greats of the music biz here without mentioning ole Johnny Marr i feel, one of the FINEST guitarists of our age i'd say, and holds the obvious Order connection!

Oh yea and of course i'd rather see a New NO album than a new Electronic album without question!!!!!

Originally posted by Rocket Mick > Originally posted by Fingers> Shug, I admit that I may have been wrong to put Bob Dylan in the same bracket as other artists who have been around for longer than Bernard and I confess that I'm not a Dylan fan or expert. However, whilst Bob Dylan may be more versatile than I gave him credit for Bernard has been consistently successful in making both "guitar" music and "electronic" music in a way that I don't think anyone else has which is why I put him in a different category to Bob Dylan.

But surely you cannot omit MR DAVID BOWIE from this for he has scanned 5 decades changing and indeed influencing many artists including the ORDER.:D

I didn't intend to make an exhaustive list because the post was too long as it was. Besides, I'm not a fan of David Bowie, even if he can scan whole decades into his computer.

Originally posted by Fingers > Originally posted by Rocket Mick> > > > Originally posted by Fingers> > Shug, I admit that I may have been wrong to put Bob Dylan in the same bracket as other artists who have been around for longer than Bernard and I confess that I'm not a Dylan fan or expert. However, whilst Bob Dylan may be more versatile than I gave him credit for Bernard has been consistently successful in making both "guitar" music and "electronic" music in a way that I don't think anyone else has which is why I put him in a different category to Bob Dylan.>

But surely you cannot omit MR DAVID BOWIE from this for he has scanned 5 decades changing and indeed influencing many artists including the ORDER.:D

I didn't intend to make an exhaustive list because the post was too long as it was. Besides, I'm not a fan of David Bowie, even if he can scan whole decades into his computer.

That's fair enough but there are more than BARNEY doing it and as he was influenced by the great BOWIE himself i just thought it would be a good inclusion.Sorry my ENGLISH ain't as perfect as yours FINGERS but i am learning this NEW language now :DKeep up the LONG exhaustive posts,it gives us quick fire/crap posters a break plus learns us some better terms.SPANNING or SPAMMING i don't KNOW?

Mick, it wasn't your English I was questioning but your typing because the letters P and C are a long way apart on the QWERTY keyboard (but then I am Fingers). Was this something to do with posting on a Friday night?

By the way, who else apart from Barney has consistently made great guitar music and great electronic music? I can't think of anyone else.

Originally posted by Fingers Mick, it wasn't your English I was questioning but your typing because the letters P and C are a long way apart on the QWERTY keyboard (but then I am Fingers). Was this something to do with posting on a Friday night?By the way, who else apart from Barney has consistently made great guitar music and great electronic music? I can't think of anyone else.

NO i used scanned cos it was in my mind,my son SPUTNICK having bought a DIGITAL CAMERA i was asking him about our DODGY scanner. With regard to the ELECTRONIC music after a guitar sound i named BOWIE for his first movements towards all things electronic in the LOW/HEREOS period and after all WARWASZA and WARSAW was no accident i believe,yes i heard all the other theories but i LIKE this one.Others i will name later when i have more time but will include PETER SINFIELD/ROBERT FRIPP/JOHNNY MARR.:D