Q: Where's Ralf Little?

There was a time when the thought that New Order could exist without Peter Hook consistently playing and looking like he's in the wrong band but with a version with a new (!) guitarist formerly of the 'nearly as good as Gene!' also rans Marion and a cowboy hat wearing cabaret bass replacement... I'd have referred to the Factory code of conduct and put it all down as a bad trip.

New Order were important for a very long time but relatively when you look at everything from Technique on and especially with the freemasonry type reviews around Music Complete where the music publishing industry seems scared to death to say anything bad about it we've got to look at what's going on and why I'm consigning the memory of the band post Factory as a different entity to what artistically, culturally and musically was the pinnacle of the punk ethic moving into the mainstream.

It's difficult to reconcile how good the group were when the new version is trading on old form/ past glories and in my view the recent Q award is the point where you have to question what the new New Order agenda is and for all Hooky's winging the fact that a living and vital component of the bands success can be champagne toasted out of a legacy he helped built is (for me) insane.

I think there's a collective amnesia around New Order from us fans and it verges on the bizarre.

Final moan... Have you heard the 'Hot Chip Mix' of Tutti Frutti? I'd rather swallow sick for 13 minutes than experience that again.

" the fact that a living and vital component of the bands success can be champagne toasted out of a legacy he helped built is (for me) insane"

But, he is the one who has done that to himself. It is literally nobody's fault but his own, so how HE can moan about it is beyond me. And to claim that the universally positive reviews for the album is because reviewers are scared is beyond insanity. The music press love sticking the boot into "musical institutions" and I'm sure many reviewers were peeved it wasn't the bag of crap that they hoped the album would be.............

Bollocks to all that. Hook left and tried to deny the rest of the band their career as Neworder and the fans a continued Neworder. He really thought he was that fucking important, the self centred cunt. Time has shown that not many support his view.

"Living and vital component"? He fucking left. Scarpered. Skidaddled. Buggered off. Put the hanky down you soft bastard. It was his choice. Let him live with its consequences.

He is denied nothing from what he built. The back catalogue at Warners serves him now, as it always did. In fact, since all he does is recycle it at gigs, it serves him better than anyone.

Penultimately, it occurs to me that MC is getting such uniformly positive reviews the world over because it is, you know, pretty fucking good. Which actually makes many Neworder fans happy, despite Hooks efforts to deny them.

And finally, if you don't like it, don't listen to it. Feel free to go watch Ralph and the Light.

*drops mike, walks off*

tooth ache wrote: There was a time when the thought that New Order could exist without Peter Hook consistently playing and looking like he's in the wrong band but with a version with a new (!) guitarist formerly of the 'nearly as good as Gene!' also rans Marion and a cowboy hat wearing cabaret bass replacement... I'd have referred to the Factory code of conduct and put it all down as a bad trip.

New Order were important for a very long time but relatively when you look at everything from Technique on and especially with the freemasonry type reviews around Music Complete where the music publishing industry seems scared to death to say anything bad about it we've got to look at what's going on and why I'm consigning the memory of the band post Factory as a different entity to what artistically, culturally and musically was the pinnacle of the punk ethic moving into the mainstream.

It's difficult to reconcile how good the group were when the new version is trading on old form/ past glories and in my view the recent Q award is the point where you have to question what the new New Order agenda is and for all Hooky's winging the fact that a living and vital component of the bands success can be champagne toasted out of a legacy he helped built is (for me) insane.

I think there's a collective amnesia around New Order from us fans and it verges on the bizarre.

Final moan... Have you heard the 'Hot Chip Mix' of Tutti Frutti? I'd rather swallow sick for 13 minutes than experience that again.

Nice try, Hooky

tooth ache wrote: There was a time when the thought that New Order could exist without Peter Hook consistently playing and looking like he's in the wrong band but with a version with a new (!) guitarist formerly of the 'nearly as good as Gene!' also rans Marion and a cowboy hat wearing cabaret bass replacement... I'd have referred to the Factory code of conduct and put it all down as a bad trip.

New Order were important for a very long time but relatively when you look at everything from Technique on and especially with the freemasonry type reviews around Music Complete where the music publishing industry seems scared to death to say anything bad about it we've got to look at what's going on and why I'm consigning the memory of the band post Factory as a different entity to what artistically, culturally and musically was the pinnacle of the punk ethic moving into the mainstream.

It's difficult to reconcile how good the group were when the new version is trading on old form/ past glories and in my view the recent Q award is the point where you have to question what the new New Order agenda is and for all Hooky's winging the fact that a living and vital component of the bands success can be champagne toasted out of a legacy he helped built is (for me) insane.

I think there's a collective amnesia around New Order from us fans and it verges on the bizarre.

Final moan... Have you heard the 'Hot Chip Mix' of Tutti Frutti? I'd rather swallow sick for 13 minutes than experience that again.

Totally agree about the remix. I also would prefer to swallow puke.

Aa for New Order, people leave bands all the time. What are the rest supposed to do stop working For me MC is the best New Order LP bar none. All the gigs are sold out its gonna be a blast!!!

I'm sure Barney is happy to be on Mute instead of the chaos that was Factory.

Rorschach wrote: Bollocks to all that. Hook left and tried to deny the rest of the band their career as Neworder and the fans a continued Neworder. He really thought he was that fucking important, the self centred cunt. Time has shown that not many support his view.

"Living and vital component"? He fucking left. Scarpered. Skidaddled. Buggered off. Put the hanky down you soft bastard. It was his choice. Let him live with its consequences.

He is denied nothing from what he built. The back catalogue at Warners serves him now, as it always did. In fact, since all he does is recycle it at gigs, it serves him better than anyone.

Penultimately, it occurs to me that MC is getting such uniformly positive reviews the world over because it is, you know, pretty fucking good. Which actually makes many Neworder fans happy, despite Hooks efforts to deny them.

And finally, if you don't like it, don't listen to it. Feel free to go watch Ralph and the Light.

*drops mike, walks off*

A masterpiece. I concur 100%

tooth ache wrote:

New Order were important for a very long time but relatively when you look at everything from Technique on and especially with the freemasonry type reviews around Music Complete where the music publishing industry seems scared to death to say anything bad about it we've got to look at what's going on and why I'm consigning the memory of the band post Factory as a different entity to what artistically, culturally and musically was the pinnacle of the punk ethic moving into the mainstream.

It's difficult to reconcile how good the group were when the new version is trading on old form/ past glories and in my view the recent Q award is the point where you have to question what the new New Order agenda is and for all Hooky's winging the fact that a living and vital component of the bands success can be champagne toasted out of a legacy he helped built is (for me) insane.

Music Complete aside, your own assessment of New Order's history appears to be towing the line of the establishment - such as above - they were brilliant in the 1980s, but their come backs never lived up to the anticipation. Personally, I think New Order's studio albums make quite a patchy discography throughout their career...

I still hold Technique as the best New Order album, but Music Complete landed in a breathtaking 2nd place (or at least tied with PCL), a feat you can't say for pretty much any band of their age on the planet. There are already four classics in the umbrella canon: Closer, PCL (enduring points for reinvigorating the group after Movement), Technique, and the debut Electronic LP. (I don't rank UP that highly -- always thought side A had a tedious pace sans Disorder.) I'd argue MC edges PCL for better consistency, and it may edge Electronic for sonic diversity. Does Low Life make sense as the broadest representation of their sound? Perhaps, but its tracks don't comprise a New Order top 10.

I suggested this in an earlier post when MC had just been released that the secret to New Order's artistic longevity has been the synchronicity between Steve and Bernard. With Gillian back in the fold Steve seems much more energized about New Order and I think Bernard was motivated by that energy to put an end to the drift that had settled in around WFTSC. There's a Rapido interview from '89 on youtube featuring the three of them without Hooky, and though it's just 4 mins, you get the feeling Technique was the baby of happy compromise between the three of them, with Hooky as the lead guitarist as bass player filling out the sound as required. If you compare Technique to Brotherhood, Hooky's bass is considerably more restrained in the mix, and I really think the last time Hooky wrote songs for New Order were the songs that dominate side A of Brotherhood. The upshot here is that Hooky was no longer the center of the riffs as he was in Joy Division, and instead of adapting and broadening what he could do with bass guitar, he stuck with his trademark sound. Yes, it's iconic, but I've heard enough live bootlegs from the 80s where I think, Christ, Bernard (and Gillian and Steve) must've wished Hooky had turned down a bit. For all of Bernard's ego, Hooky's jealousy and own incessant self-regard has been the kiss of death for a lot of fans. And I think Hooky droning on about the good old days in Joy Division is infinitely more damaging to this rarefied notion of mystique than the current New Order amusedly showing up to collect belated industry awards.

tooth ache wrote: .........especially with the freemasonry type reviews around Music Complete where the music publishing industry seems scared to death to say anything bad about it......

Congrats, you've just added another to the long list of conspiracy theories.

MUSIC COMPLETE is really quite good, full stop. And this is from a fan who has been following NO since Lowlife in 1985, seen the band twice in 1987, once in 2002, three times in 2012 & seen Hooky's gigs twice.

Oh, I also quite like Hot Chip's remix...though I thought the last 2 mins was unnecessary. Would someone please do a mash-up mix of Tutti Fruitti with YELLO's 'Oh Yeah' ?

poisoned snickers 2015 wrote:

tooth ache wrote: .........especially with the freemasonry type reviews around Music Complete where the music publishing industry seems scared to death to say anything bad about it......

Congrats, you've just added another to the long list of conspiracy theories.

MUSIC COMPLETE is really quite good, full stop. And this is from a fan who has been following NO since Lowlife in 1985, seen the band twice in 1987, once in 2002, three times in 2012 & seen Hooky's gigs twice.

Oh, I also quite like Hot Chip's remix...though I thought the last 2 mins was unnecessary. Would someone please do a mash-up mix of Tutti Fruitti with YELLO's 'Oh Yeah' ?

Or Cliff's Wired for Sound

poisoned snickers 2015 wrote: Would someone please do a mash-up mix of Tutti Fruitti with YELLO's 'Oh Yeah' ?

Seconded. That track pops into my head too sometimes when I listen to Tutti Frutti.

Trying to hold off playing any MC songs or remixes until the weekend. It plays in my head though, but I’m somehow diverted to Three Dog Night (Mama told me not to come), Iggy Pop (Cry for love), and even odder, when I’m hearing Tutti Frutti in my head, suddenly it turns into the Sisters of Mercy Temple of Love. 😕

tooth ache wrote: There was a time when the thought that New Order could exist without Peter Hook consistently playing and looking like he's in the wrong band but with a version with a new (!) guitarist formerly of the 'nearly as good as Gene!' also rans Marion and a cowboy hat wearing cabaret bass replacement... I'd have referred to the Factory code of conduct and put it all down as a bad trip.

New Order were important for a very long time but relatively when you look at everything from Technique on and especially with the freemasonry type reviews around Music Complete where the music publishing industry seems scared to death to say anything bad about it we've got to look at what's going on and why I'm consigning the memory of the band post Factory as a different entity to what artistically, culturally and musically was the pinnacle of the punk ethic moving into the mainstream.

It's difficult to reconcile how good the group were when the new version is trading on old form/ past glories and in my view the recent Q award is the point where you have to question what the new New Order agenda is and for all Hooky's winging the fact that a living and vital component of the bands success can be champagne toasted out of a legacy he helped built is (for me) insane.

I think there's a collective amnesia around New Order from us fans and it verges on the bizarre.

Final moan... Have you heard the 'Hot Chip Mix' of Tutti Frutti? I'd rather swallow sick for 13 minutes than experience that again.

Now we know where Hookys blog about the album went!

Honestly. This is crazy bullshit. Hooky was totally on board with Phil Cunningham being in the band. That comment then is irrelevant.

Let's not criticise Tom for one wearing a cowboy hat (did he? I can't remember that, and I don't bloody care if he did). Look at some of the bonkers stuff the Hookster wore on stage. Besides, this is music, not a fucking fashion show.

Freemasonry reviews of MC? Purfuckinglease, get a grip. I think it's a really good record. That's why I have given it a good review. Because I think it's really good.

Also, if we're going for "trading on old form", how many albums of new stuff has Hooky released since he kick started The Light? How many new songs? Zero. Zip. Nada. Fuck all. Tumbleweed. He's been touring the what he self-confessedly called his own tribute to himself for over half a decade. That's a case of trading on old form, and past glories.

I think there's a collective amnesia around this. Hook left. Let him do what he wants. The others chose to carry on. Let them do what they want.

Also... Hooky signed off the Sly & Robbie mixes of "Ruined In A Day" ... and blinkin' nora, they are appalling.

I'd like to add that all those sharpening knives in Hooky's defense have the air of most holier than thou -- it's nearly like hearing someone say "I was there when Ian Curtis first shit his diapers!" As an American born in '85 I have an admiration for the devotion to the group's history that the older fans have displayed, especially in all the bootlegs and videos uploaded to youtube documenting the group during their imperial era. But this territorial attitude and sanctimoniousness is really antithetical to what the group is about. New Order -- it's in the damn name -- is about change. How many times have people said, Never again will I hold New Order in high regard, they have violated my trust...down the line: Confusion, Subculture remix, State of the Nation, World In Motion, Republic, Rock The Shack, among many other things, none of them *really* that egregious. It's just a different standard for New Order than virtually any other group I can think of. Complain about redundant compilations, or shoddy fidelity on reissues, but *new* music whose quality is generous to the fans and adds to their legacy isn't something that can be easily dismissed due to the absence of Peter Hook.

For the most part in NO, Hooky came up with his distinctive but also simple bass lines after the actual music was written by Bernard, Steve, and Gillian.

The proof is in the pudding. Bernard is clearly the main songwriter in New Order and has been for some years. Steve and Gillian contribute the dynamic programming/synth/production side and even compose the music to some cracking pop tunes (BLT, WIM). Hooky probably generated Age of Consent (sounds like the song was built round his bass part) but generally, his contribution was to come up with riffs based on the music written by the others.

Bernard, Steve, and Gillian (with Phil and Tom) have made a cracking new, critically acclaimed, high charting, high selling album. They are beginning to extend their reach into a new generation of music fans. Hooky is playing old NO and JD songs with a cover band, singing vocal melodies written by Sumner.

Hooky quit. And if he could deliver the goods on his own, he would have by now, but he hasn't.

Bernard once told me that "No matter what, the song is king. Before you have anything, great production, whatever, you have to write a good song, and everything has to serve that song to bring out its best elements". New Order have written some great new songs (Plastic, Tutti Fruity, Singularity, Academic, People on the Highline, Restless, ect). Hooky....plays old songs with a cover band.

It' still New Order to me. But..to each his own.

ZASmusic wrote: For the most part in NO, Hooky came up with his distinctive but also simple bass lines after the actual music was written by Bernard, Steve, and Gillian.

The proof is in the pudding. Bernard is clearly the main songwriter in New Order and has been for some years. Steve and Gillian contribute the dynamic programming/synth/production side and even compose the music to some cracking pop tunes (BLT, WIM). Hooky probably generated Age of Consent (sounds like the song was built round his bass part) but generally, his contribution was to come up with riffs based on the music written by the others.

Bernard, Steve, and Gillian (with Phil and Tom) have made a cracking new, critically acclaimed, high charting, high selling album. They are beginning to extend their reach into a new generation of music fans. Hooky is playing old NO and JD songs with a cover band, singing vocal melodies written by Sumner.

Hooky quit. And if he could deliver the goods on his own, he would have by now, but he hasn't.

Bernard once told me that "No matter what, the song is king. Before you have anything, great production, whatever, you have to write a good song, and everything has to serve that song to bring out its best elements". New Order have written some great new songs (Plastic, Tutti Fruity, Singularity, Academic, People on the Highline, Restless, ect). Hooky....plays old songs with a cover band.

It' still New Order to me. But..to each his own.

I totally agree .

I don't get the Ralf Little reference. I mean, I know he played Peter Hook in 24HPP but it was hardly a signature role, was it?

I think, if memory serves, it is a quote from Mr. Hook himself, upon John Simm appearing on stage with Barney to duet on Digital at Finsbury Park, as per 511.

It seemed funny at the time - less so in light of subsequent events.

tooth ache wrote: I think there's a collective amnesia around New Order from us fans and it verges on the bizarre.

You're right. The fact that no one was complaining as much as your are when New Order continued to use their name without Gillian Gilbert for over a decade is quite a double standard.

tooth ache wrote: There was a time when the thought that New Order could exist without Peter Hook consistently playing and looking like he's in the wrong band but with a version with a new (!) guitarist formerly of the 'nearly as good as Gene!' also rans Marion and a cowboy hat wearing cabaret bass replacement... I'd have referred to the Factory code of conduct and put it all down as a bad trip.

New Order were important for a very long time but relatively when you look at everything from Technique on and especially with the freemasonry type reviews around Music Complete where the music publishing industry seems scared to death to say anything bad about it we've got to look at what's going on and why I'm consigning the memory of the band post Factory as a different entity to what artistically, culturally and musically was the pinnacle of the punk ethic moving into the mainstream.

It's difficult to reconcile how good the group were when the new version is trading on old form/ past glories and in my view the recent Q award is the point where you have to question what the new New Order agenda is and for all Hooky's winging the fact that a living and vital component of the bands success can be champagne toasted out of a legacy he helped built is (for me) insane.

I think there's a collective amnesia around New Order from us fans and it verges on the bizarre.

Final moan... Have you heard the 'Hot Chip Mix' of Tutti Frutti? I'd rather swallow sick for 13 minutes than experience that again.

Lol... come off it mate. Your conspiracy theory is nonsense anyway, for example WFTSC was (rightly IMO) critically panned, the press aren't afraid of putting the boot in when necessary...

You sound like a betrayed teenage fanboy

JHV wrote: I'd like to add that all those sharpening knives in Hooky's defense have the air of most holier than thou -- it's nearly like hearing someone say "I was there when Ian Curtis first shit his diapers!" As an American born in '85 I have an admiration for the devotion to the group's history that the older fans have displayed, especially in all the bootlegs and videos uploaded to youtube documenting the group during their imperial era. But this territorial attitude and sanctimoniousness is really antithetical to what the group is about. New Order -- it's in the damn name -- is about change. How many times have people said, Never again will I hold New Order in high regard, they have violated my trust...down the line: Confusion, Subculture remix, State of the Nation, World In Motion, Republic, Rock The Shack, among many other things, none of them *really* that egregious. It's just a different standard for New Order than virtually any other group I can think of. Complain about redundant compilations, or shoddy fidelity on reissues, but *new* music whose quality is generous to the fans and adds to their legacy isn't something that can be easily dismissed due to the absence of Peter Hook.

Best live band ever though

He says he's a fan of NW.

Who are NW?

Coops wrote: He says he's a fan of NW.

Who are NW?

He means he's from North West UK? Maybe that's what he meant, dunno.

Oh dear our dental correspondent seems to have disappeared after 1 post.

Anyway the message seems to be - don't confuse me with facts

rosygale wrote: Oh dear our dental correspondent seems to have disappeared after 1 post.

I know, it makes me wonder whether The_blank_from_hell was right about the OP being Peter Hook. He certainly seemed concerned about Hook's legacy since MC's great reviews, like no other poster I've read on here...

The OP does ramble on, almost incoherently, like he is him. If it is him, then my god... a new low.

its a strange one with whats happened

i was watching some youtube footage last night (84-87 ish) and hook was proper getting on my nerves with his onstage antics,i was even thinking to myself 'turn your bass down you prick' and picking up on all his bum notes

this has all been brought on with his constant name calling and bitching

its like he's tainted everything i loved if that makes sense😕

lee wrote: its a strange one with whats happened

i was watching some youtube footage last night (84-87 ish) and hook was proper getting on my nerves with his onstage antics,i was even thinking to myself 'turn your bass down you prick' and picking up on all his bum notes

this has all been brought on with his constant name calling and bitching

its like he's tainted everything i loved if that makes sense😕

I was watching some old live clips and interviews a few moths back and noticed how Barney and Hooky completely ignored each other on stage and in the interviews.Never once noticed it before in all the years but now it's so obvious.