Mapping the (hopefully!) forthcoming Definitive Editions... Part 1 - PC&L

OK, I may be getting (wayyyyyyy!) ahead of myself, but I thought it might be fun to predict what might be on the next boxset, after 'Movement'.

Yes, I'm probably being a bit hopeful with suggestions here but, who knows, by listing stuff here, the powers that be might see it and make it happen. It therefore might be a good idea to get an early start here.

So, going on the template that 'Movement' Deluxe has set, we should possibly plan for a 1 x vinyl, 2 x CD, 1 x DVD (plus book) set, with the vinyl and 1 x CD taken up with the original LP, lovingly restored.

Therefore, we only need to speculate on the other CD and the DVD:

CD2:

It seems likely that, as we are probably getting accompanying 12"s (for, presumably, Blue Monday, Confusion, Thieves Like Us and, maybe, Murder), tracks featured on these records won't be included. This would reflect what is on 'Movement' CD2, with this not including non-album singles, b-sides etc.

I would imagine (again, like 'Movement'), we will get mainly demos on this disc. So, possibly, a demo for each LP track, plus demos for Blue Monday, Confusion, Thieves Like Us, Lonesome Tonight and Murder. Do demos even exist for these tracks? I would love to hear a demo of Blue Monday.

What else could be on here, though, apart from demos. The only tracks I can think of from around this period that could feature are:

Video 5.8.6 (maybe too long to fit on the disc?) Ode To Joy / Rocking Carol (would the band want these 'BeMusic' items included?) Too Late / Turn The Heater On (perhaps the band had a stab at doing 'studio', i.e. non-Peel versions)

Personally, I'd love to have Video 5.8.6 feature. I'm not that bothered by the two Xmas flexi tracks, but the completist in me would rather like them added.

Anything I've missed on this that we know (or hope) exists?

DVD:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and hope that the 'music videos' are going to be included on the box-sets. If so, we could probably include the following:

Blue Monday (original video) (are there problems with copyright on this one though?) Confusion Primitive 5.8.6 (original video from Haçienda opening; from 'A Factory Video')

Live 'professional' / 'semi professional' stuff that exists that could be used:

Melbourne 27/11/82 Haçienda 26/01/83 (Your Silent Face was on 'A Factory Outing') Cork 22/04/83 (2 tracks were on the Glasgow DVD) Minneapolis 29/06/83 (great footage exists) Music For Miners 14/05/84 (great rehearsal footage exists, sadly without sound) Seaside Festival 11/08/84 (great footage exists and was featured on Belgian TV)

TV:

Riverside 17/0/83 (nice article about the Haçienda) Top Of The Pops 31/03/83 (Blue Monday) Switch 01/04/83 (Age Of Consent & Blue Monday) Countdown 05/06/83 (Interview, Blue Monday and (the fabled) Confusion) Riverside 10/10/83 (Interview) DJ 03/12/83 (Thieves Like Us) Musik Convoy 16/04/84 (Thieves Like Us) Top Of The Pops 03/05/84 (Thieves Like Us) Pop Elektron 25/05/84 (Interview, Thieves Like Us) Play At Home 21/08/84 (this HAS to be included) Rock Around The Clock 25/08/84 (I'm hoping that the band will ok this brilliant 'car crash' performance) Estoc De Pop 15/09/84 (four tracks broadcast, but whole gig could be included)

OK - I'm about done. Phew!

Anything I've missed? Anything you'd absolutely love to see included?

A photo of Barney in his white lab coat he apparently wore during the recording sessions would be great

Fotzepolitic wrote: A photo of Barney in his white lab coat he apparently wore during the recording sessions would be great

I'd pay for that, haha.

I wish they'd drop the live DVD stuff or release it separately. Feels like an excuse to crank up the price (if anyone's listening).

The Butterworth book might give more insight to PCL demos - been a while since I read it.

tapebias wrote:

Fotzepolitic wrote: A photo of Barney in his white lab coat he apparently wore during the recording sessions would be great

I'd pay for that, haha.

I wish they'd drop the live DVD stuff or release it separately. Feels like an excuse to crank up the price (if anyone's listening).

The Butterworth book might give more insight to PCL demos - been a while since I read it.

The live / DVD stuff is what I’m most excited by.

Don’t get me wrong, I love hearing demos and would be pumped to hear an otherwise unreleased track or two (like Homage). But the live stuff, especially from the 80s, is golden. I just love watching them on old footage. They were (are) immense.

Not sure about the details in the Butterworth book. I read it about two years ago. IIRC, he was only there during the actual final recordings, mixing etc. He might not have heard any demos (which were possibly recorded at an earlier date). Can’t seem to recall him mentioning any demos.

I’m guessing there must be demos though. Anyone know?

Someone has posted this on Facebook. A possible release date and format details (inc. 2 x DVD!):

So 08/11/19 then! With the four 12”s being released, one a week, starting 11/10/19.

Hope this is accurate. 2 x DVDs. The mind boggles as to what might be on this.

Thanks to BaggieBoiler for pointing this out to me this morning.

I'd love this to feature the unreleased 7 inch edits of Blue Monday and (presumably) The Beach. About time these versions surfaced.

I love that the original 12 inches are finally getting digital versions released with the original cover image - long overdue that these tracks are finally available to download and stream. Saves buying the vinyl for a second time too. Wish they'd do the same with the 7 inch tracks too, to slowly make everything available digitally.

I’m still holding out for a CD singles box set once the LP sets are done, but I think I’m grasping...

Still, I’m massively happy with these sets and the accompanying 12”s.

Can’t wait until we get to hear the contents of the LP set. By my reckoning, based on how close the announcement of Movement was before release, we could get a PC&L announcement in mid-July. Not long to wait.

(Unless any of our illustrious friends on these boards could give us a sneak glimpse into the contents. 😉)

Or at least confirm that it is definitely going to have two DVDs.

Interesting development. Hope that info is for real. I’ll be very interested to see what’s on the DVD and second CD.I guess I’ll end up buying the four 12” re-releases also.Maybe some more tweaking ( accidental or intended) to the sleeves and new improved inners too?

Here’s hoping for a die-cut / silver inner version of Blue Monday. I’m sure we’ll get it.

actually its a little disappointing if that's what it is.

only 2 cds...

album - 43 minutes by itself

if they exclude :

Bonus Disc

2-1 Blue Monday 7:32 2-2 The Beach 7:22 2-3 Confusion 8:15 2-4 Thieves Like Us 6:38 2-5 Lonesome Tonight 5:13 2-6 Murder 3:57 2-7 Thieves Like Us (Instrumental) 6:59 2-8 Confusion (Instrumental) 7:36

about 53 minutes total

so you have about 30 minutes to put other tracks:

blue monday 7 inch edit blue monday video version confusion 7 inch edit thieves like us 7 inch edit thieves like us instrumental 7 inch edit lonesome tonight 7 inch edit

the 2nd disc would have demos i expect. the only other mixes missing are the 2 other confusion ones from that era there are 2 other thieves like us mixes video 586 might show up also.

yes, i expect there are tons of tv appearances and other tracks. along with live shows.

hoping there's more music than video added.

already have the original 12 inches already for the singles, murder only had 1 format, so that might nice for people that never got it.

later -1

If the Movement box is any indication, the singles and B-sides won't be on the second disc. My suspicion (and hope) is that those will all appear on a deluxe Substance box.

Possible inclusion: Demos Two Peel sessions The Christmas flexi Prime 5-8-6 Possibly an alternate single mix or two

Generally uncirculated/unheard material

I'm far more curious about the two DVDs!

Following the template established by the Movement set, the first disc will only be the album itself. Also, no tracks already remastered and rereleased will feature, which rules out Confusion 7" and Thieves 7". Blue Monday, Confusion and Thieves mixes and B-sides from original 12 inches will only feature on reissued vinyl singles and digital equivalents.

Hoping 7 inch edit of Lonesome Tonight will be included somewhere, as it's a nice edit, but given Hurt 7 inch edit (another nice edit) wasn't in Movement set I'm guessing not. Hope these both get released digitally someday.

Best guess is 2nd disc will be more demos and outakes rather than exhaustive (and tedious) retreading of all the different mixes. Which I think is the way it should be. A set like this needs much more than just digital remasters of stuff collectors already have on vinyl. Christ, I would still like to retain a few obscure edits and mixes in my vinyl collection that never, ever make it to digital, as many were bloody hard to track down!

I have to say, so far I like the way they're reissuing stuff in multiple formats: albums, outakes and DVDs in boxed sets; previously released 12 inches rereleased on vinyl and digital. A nice combination, but just wish they'd also reissue the 7" versions digitally too.

Agreed. I’m loving the format of the sets.

I was initially disappointed that the singles / mixes weren’t in the Movement set, but what we did get... Wow!

The bonus CD was just great. Both the WW and Cargo demos were stunning.

And the DVD was the obvious highlight.

More of the same and I’ll be very happy. I do kind of wish that Video 5-8-6 is included though. It’s too damn good to be missed off.

Here’s hoping for that ‘Substance’ Definitive Edition to ‘round up’ all those ‘missing’ tracks.

50 Pound Note wrote:

I'm far more curious about the two DVDs!

Crikey yeah, had somehow missed that it’s 2 DVDs, not 1.

Yep! 😁

Incredible. We may be talking about 5+ hours of good stuff.

Anybody have any information that they can share about the release date of the PC&L box and accompanying singles?

Those October / November dates are looking less and less likely by the day. 😞

When I'm With You, Milan 82. Fuck the flexi, and fuck Vid586. I played it last wankend and I want my 22 minutes back.

Michael Monkhouse wrote: When I'm With You, Milan 82. Fuck the flexi, and fuck Vid586. I played it last wankend and I want my 22 minutes back.

This? Seems to be 11 minutes long. You played it twice before feeling fleeced of your time?

I think Michael’s referring to Video 5-8-6.

I bloody love that track and listen to all 22 mins fairly regularly. An awesome piece of experimentation. However much I still love the band, I can’t imagine them trying something as bonkers as that anymore.

perspexorange wrote: However much I still love the band, I can’t imagine them trying something as bonkers as that anymore.

To be fair, that was done for a gallery exhibit. The Peter Saville Show Soundtrack from 2003 runs over 30 minutes.

Granted. But I think there’s quite a difference between the two pieces. The latter is less experimental and much more ambient ‘filler’. All in my humble opinion, of course.

Also, Soundtrack was 16 years ago. Seems like only a few years ago to me.

I guess the closest ‘modern’ thing along these lines might be this ‘4:33’ track. But hardly the band breaking new ground.

perspexorange wrote: I think Michael’s referring to Video 5-8-6.

Yes. The flexi tracks and Vomit586 aren't really appropriate, unless they have a CD part 786543 for the beyond-obsessives. Some people were bemoaning 586's being left off 'Singles', but could you really sit through this in the midst of the early clutch of 45s? i'd be hitting 'Skip' every time... And the flexi was just a gimmick if you'd turned up on the night - great to own if you're a colllector, but no musical value at all.

...I liked it. But I agree it drags on after the 5th minute. I think it's the sound quality that makes it hard to listen.

Also, what was the source that said a PCL box set was coming out in November? Seems odd that you'd put out another $100 box set in a span of 6 months.

Wax wrote: Also, what was the source that said a PCL box set was coming out in November? Seems odd that you'd put out another $100 box set in a span of 6 months.

Two per year isn't bad. Did Led Zep drop them three at a time?

A few months back someone found a listing for four 12" singles and a box, tentatively in November. It's all speculations, but Johnny James would know.

Wax wrote: ...I liked it. But I agree it drags on after the 5th minute. I think it's the sound quality that makes it hard to listen.

Also, what was the source that said a PCL box set was coming out in November? Seems odd that you'd put out another $100 box set in a span of 6 months.

Kind of agree. But then they did put out the expensive MIF Live box set just a few months after the Movement box set. Felt they were pushing it a bit doing that. Well yes, fans didn’t have to buy the £50 ish ( or was it £60 ish ?) vinyl edition of the box , they could have just bought the £10 CD version but still.

Fotzepolitic wrote: Kind of agree. But then they did put out the expensive MIF Live box set just a few months after the Movement box set. Felt they were pushing it a bit doing that. Well yes, fans didn’t have to buy the £50 ish ( or was it £60 ish ?) vinyl edition of the box , they could have just bought the £10 CD version but still.

It's worth pointing out these are being done by two different labels. They're currently signed to Mute, and So It Goes is a Mute release. The back catalog is being handled by Warners.

Well, no one forces you to buy anything. With 53225807523 rehashes, I'd like to meet someone who's still a completist. Actually, I wouldn't.

50 Pound Note wrote:

A few months back someone found a listing for four 12" singles and a box, tentatively in November. It's all speculations, but Johnny James would know.

Someone on the Steve Hoffman forums claims that Kevin Cummins showed him a mockup of the artwork in June, and confirmed it was scheduled for November but has since been delayed

According to internal sources, its pushed back to early 2020.

Well that's a bit disappointing, but seems likely given the fact that they need to advertise this etc.

PCL - Box edition

Date : january 24, 2020

CLERK wrote: PCL - Box edition

Date : january 24, 2020

Pink? Is that pink? What’s the connection with pink and the original cover? ( Movement box was powder blue like the original album cover) . Puzzled now how the schedule of the P,C & L era singles re-releases fit into all this if the box is end of January.

Fotzepolitic wrote: Pink? Is that pink? What’s the connection with pink and the original cover?

That color features prominently in the flowers, and is one of the key colors on Saville's color code. It's the first color block in the corner.

50 Pound Note wrote:

Fotzepolitic wrote: Pink? Is that pink? What’s the connection with pink and the original cover?

That color features prominently in the flowers, and is one of the key colors on Saville's color code. It's the first color block in the corner.

Ok.Yep that makes sense.

Wow!

Some news then! Great stufff!

Running that text on that French page through Google Translate yields the following:

"In the form of a luxury box, this box designed by Peter Saville includes a vinyl, 2 CDs and 2 DVDs, and a hardcover book. It offers vinyl and CD the first remastered version of the album 'Power, Corruption & Lies' from the original analog master strips. The bonus CD features unpublished excerpts from the album's 'writing sessions', picked up in New Order's rehearsal space in Manchester, and a 1982 John Peel Session on the BBC. The two DVDs feature New Order concerts in 1982 and 1983 at Hacienda and Kilkenny, Channel 4's 'Play at Home' documentary in 1984, and many rare TV and live performances.

The 48-page hardcover book contains rare photos and original texts."

Scant details, but WOW! Hacienda and Kilkenny! fab stuff! Many rare TV appearances? Oh yes! Gimme, gimme, gimme! Hopefully we get to see Confusion from Veronica's Countdown.

Also, I'm so glad that 'Play At Home' is featured as it's such an important part of the band's (and Factory's) TV history.

Video of the Kilkenny gig? Wow, never imagined that it was filmed. Curious as hell and to see that. Played my cassette of the Radio 1 Broadcast of that gig over and over back then.Got to know live versions of songs before i’d even heard or bought the records ( Ceremony, EGG, Temptation). The images I’ve imagined in my head of the gig from the audio are either going to be confirmed or turned completely upside down after all these years. Crikey.

What's a bit odd is the fact that the 1982 Peel Session is on it. Not that I have any objection to this (it's pretty f**king awesome, after all), but just seems strange considering the 1981 one wasn't on the Movement box.

Reading back through that translate thing, although I read the 'many rare TV performances' bit, I missed that it actually said 'many rare TV and live performances'. Great stuff! So, a bit like like the Movement box in having complete gigs and various tracks from other gigis.

Colour me excited! PC&L, along with Technique, are the band's absolute high-points for me.

Fotzepolitic wrote: Video of the Kilkenny gig? Wow, never imagined that it was filmed. Curious as hell and to see that. Played my cassette of the Radio 1 Broadcast of that gig over and over back then.Got to know live versions of songs before i’d even heard or bought the records ( Ceremony, EGG, Temptation). The images I’ve imagined in my head of the gig from the audio are either going to be confirmed or turned completely upside down after all these years. Crikey.

Great, ain't it?

Where's the First Avenue gig? Didn't we get a remastered ICB from that show for the last box set?

I know this is probably heresy to say on this forum, but PCL barely breaks my top 5 favorite NO releases. I found myself more excited for the Movement box set because that's my favorite period of NO.

Curious to see what the Low-Life box set will give us.

Much as I love the Minneapolis gig, I'm happy to see ones I've never seen before. First Avenue has been circulating for years, after all. Still, I'd never turn down a really great quality version of it. Obvs.

I'm also interested in Low-Life, but one step at a time. :-) It's all PC&L for the time being and I'm so, so happy with that!

So, presumably, the two gigs are the following two dates:

Haçienda, Manchester, 26/06/82

In A Lonely Place Ultraviolence Denial The Village We All Stand Senses Chosen Time 5-8-6 Temptation Everything's Gone Green

Rosehill Hotel, Kilkenny, 14/04/83

We All Stand Leave Me Alone Denial The Village Temptation Confusion In A Lonely Place Age Of Consent Blue Monday Everything's Gone Green Ceremony

So, a nice mix of Movement-era and PC&L-era tracks, especially with the '82 gig.

Release date: 24/1/2020 (1LP/2CD/2DVD) Power, Corruption & Lies (for CD and LP) (2019 remaster)

1. Age of Consent
2. We All Stand
3. The Village
4. 5 8 6
5. Your Silent Face
6. Ultraviolence
7. Ecstacy
8. Leave Me Alone

Power Corruption & Lies - Extras (CD) Writing Session Recordings

1. Age Of Consent *
2. The Village *
3. 5 8 6 *
4. Your Silent Face *
5. Ecstacy *
6. Leave Me Alone *

John Peel Session 07. Turn The Heater On 08. We All Stand 09. Too Late 10. 5 8 6

John Peel Session Outtake 11. Too Late (instrumental rough mix) *

New York Session Outtake 12. Thieves Like Us (New York demo #1) *

Writing Session Recordings 13. Thieves Like Us * 14. Murder * 15. Blue Monday * 16. Blue Monday *

*Previously unreleased

New Order – Power, Corruption & Lies DVD DVD 1

Live Shows The Hacienda, Manchester, 1982 In A Lonely Place Ultraviolence Denial The Village We All Stand Senses Chosen Time 5 8 6 Temptation Everything's Gone Green

Recorded on 26th June, 1982

Rosehill Hotel, Kilkenny, Ireland 1983 We All Stand Leave Me Alone Denial The Village Temptation Confusion Age Of Consent Blue Monday Everything's Gone Green Ceremony

Recorded on 24th April, 1983

TV Sessions

BBC Top Of The Pops, London, 1983 Blue Monday

Countdown - 1983 Confusion

Switch - 1983 Age Of Consent Blue Monday

BBC Top Of The Pops, London, 1984 Thieves Like Us

Extras The Hacienda, Manchester, 1983 Your Silent Face 5 8 6

Recreation Centre, Tolworth, 1983 We All Stand Leave Me Alone

Tower Ballroom, Birmingham, 1983 Love Will Tear Us Apart

First Avenue, Minneapolis, 1983 Ultraviolence

Uni-Mensa, Dusseldorf, 1984 The Village

Alabamahalle, Munich, 1984 Thieves Like Us Blue Monday

Metropol, Berlin, 1984 Lonesome Tonight Confusion

DVD 2 Play At Home Channel 4 documentary made by New Order

Live Show The Hacienda, Manchester, 1983 Blue Monday Age Of Consent Lonesome Tonight Your Silent Face Leave Me Alone 5 8 6 Denial Confusion Temptation Thieves Like Us In A Lonely Place Everything's Gone Green

Recorded on 20th July, 1983

Fantastic! Three complete gigs, plus a whole host of other live performances. Confusion from Countdown is there (finally!).

Plus those rehearsals / outtakes look mighty tasty. Rehearsals of Blue Monday? Wow! Demo of TLU? Yes please!

YESSSSSS!

But I bet the record label are gutted that they missed the xmas market. At least it's out the day after I get paid in January, so that's something

Should be getting the 12"s announced soon then too?

Can't believe the Kilkenny show was filmed - surely the BBC wouldn't have gone all the way to Ireland to film it and then never showed it? Maybe local amateur or local TV footage synced to the BBC In Concert audio?

Also - I note that two of the "extras" on DVD1 are from the Hacienda 1983. Hopefully these are from the January 83 show and not just duplicates of the July 83 show that is already in full on DVD2. Worse mistakes have been known to be made!

GotBlueEyes wrote: I note that two of the "extras" on DVD1 are from the Hacienda 1983. Hopefully these are from the January 83 show and not just duplicates of the July 83 show that is already in full on DVD2. Worse mistakes have been known to be made!

I‘m guessing (hoping?) they’re from the 26/01/83 gig (like Truth was in the ’Movement’ box). We know that YSF exists from this gig, as it was on the ‘A Factory Outing’ VHS. Fingers crossed.

Maybe Johnny James can confirm, as the embargo on contents seems to have been lifted.

Incidentally, there will (presumably) be some duplication, as some of the July ‘83 Haç gig was featured in ‘Play At Home’ (also on the DVDs). It was 3 tracks wasn’t it? Lonesome Tonight, Thieves Like Us and one other (In A Lonely Place possibly; can’t remember).

I’m really pleased that they’ve gone with 2 x DVD. Hopefully, they continue with this decision for subsequent boxes.

Catching up on this thread, I was initially disappointed by the 'not until 2020' delay but then I saw the listings and, well, WOW!

Labours of love like these need to be given all the time they need to do it right.

Thanks all.

perspexorange wrote:

GotBlueEyes wrote: I note that two of the "extras" on DVD1 are from the Hacienda 1983. Hopefully these are from the January 83 show and not just duplicates of the July 83 show that is already in full on DVD2. Worse mistakes have been known to be made!

I‘m guessing (hoping?) they’re from the 26/01/83 gig (like Truth was in the ’Movement’ box). We know that YSF exists from this gig, as it was on the ‘A Factory Outing’ VHS. Fingers crossed.

Maybe Johnny James can confirm, as the embargo on contents seems to have been lifted.

Yep, definitely from Jan 83.

I might as well jump in and say something here. This was an early and apparently accidental leak rather than an official announcement from the label.

This means:

That release date in January is far from definite and is very likely to slip back further at this point.

The listings aren't quite right and are still subject to changes, hopefully nothing major but you never know.

Thanks for the update, JJ. Much appreciated. Thanks for all the hard work you and others have put into what looks like an awesome set.

Awesome but the price tag is still a stumbling block. That's a lot of beer money.

Michael Monkhouse wrote: Awesome but the price tag is still a stumbling block. That's a lot of beer money.

What I always do in cases like this, is pre-order from Amazon at the earliest opportunity to lock in their pre-order price. Chances are the RRP will drop and you’re guaranteed to get it at the lowest price that it is throughout your pre-order period.

Then just put a note in your calendar a week or so before release. You can then decide whether to cancel or keep at that point. If you keep it (and why wouldn’t you?), you’ll probably get it cheaper than if you’d decided to buy it on / after release, on a whim?

I should point out that there is NO WAY I’d cancel a set as good as this one looks.

The PCL box is already withdrawn fro Fnac webpage, but they know announce the four EPs, starting 15th of november.

running order :

Blue monday 15th of november Confusion 22th of november TLU 29th of november Murder 6th of december

Looking forward to the Kilkenny and both Hacienda 83 gig videos.I have bootleg audio of July 83 and it's great.Also the Radio 1 broadcast of Kilkenny is ace.

Looking forward also to the Countdown footage of Confusion, Thieves New York demo, Too Late instrumental demo from the Peel session, Play At Home on DVD, Manchester 82 video and various assorted gig snippets.

Oh and i'm hoping in the book there is a photo of Bernard in his lab coat he reportedly wore during the album sessions

Really hoping the vinyl will still have the die cut sleeve.Also the same for the BM re-release.

Johnny James wrote: The listings aren't quite right and are still subject to changes, hopefully nothing major but you never know.

So my uncirculated tape of the 20 minute Ultraviolence from Hull March 1982 might still be required

GotBlueEyes wrote:

Johnny James wrote: The listings aren't quite right and are still subject to changes, hopefully nothing major but you never know.

So my uncirculated tape of the 20 minute Ultraviolence from Hull March 1982 might still be required

You’re joking, right? If not, get it out there! 😉😁😁

GotBlueEyes wrote:

Johnny James wrote: The listings aren't quite right and are still subject to changes, hopefully nothing major but you never know.

So my uncirculated tape of the 20 minute Ultraviolence from Hull March 1982 might still be required

Does it sound better than the one in circulation?

It's still only an audience tape, but i got the master from a guy as part of a batch of John Peel Shows I was transferring for the Peel Yahoogroup. He taped it himself and said "do you want this while you're at it?"

It's a lot bassier than the circulating tape - I'll send you a PM

This is going to be THE box set, can’t wait, greatest album ever

Hope they include some of the missing edits, and pull the Peel Sessions tracks, that would make some more space.

Looking forward to it.

later -1

24 January 2020 will be Factory's 42nd anniversary - so it would be a good release date to hit!

perspexorange wrote:

Michael Monkhouse wrote: Awesome but the price tag is still a stumbling block. That's a lot of beer money.

What I always do in cases like this...

As the Siamese twins said to the prostitute, thanks for the heads up. The demos sound interesting. I used to have three cassettes of https://www.discogs.com/it/demos-outakes-rarities/release/13264245 and the coolest part were the LowLife demos.

bc2323 wrote: The PCL box is already withdrawn fro Fnac webpage, but they know announce the four EPs, starting 15th of november.

running order :

Blue monday 15th of november Confusion 22th of november TLU 29th of november Murder 6th of december

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF\_GO5Pnpk0

I know the TOTP videos and others are nice to have.

What about the Factory shorts, would be good to finally have some of those also.

later -1

negative1 wrote: I know the TOTP videos and others are nice to have.

What about the Factory shorts, would be good to finally have some of those also.

later -1

‘Factory Shorts’?

The only thing I know by that name is the VHS with the original BM video.

perspexorange wrote:

negative1 wrote: I know the TOTP videos and others are nice to have.

What about the Factory shorts, would be good to finally have some of those also.

later -1

‘Factory Shorts’?

The only thing I know by that name is the VHS with the original BM video.

ok, that and a factory video, and outing had relevant tracks.

later -1

negative1 wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

negative1 wrote: I know the TOTP videos and others are nice to have.

What about the Factory shorts, would be good to finally have some of those also.

later -1

‘Factory Shorts’?

The only thing I know by that name is the VHS with the original BM video.

ok, that and a factory video, and outing had relevant tracks.

later -1

Ah, ok.

‘Ceremony’ from ‘A Factory Video’ was included on ‘Movement’ Definitive Edition. ‘Your Silent Face’ from ‘A Factory Outing’ looks to be on the new set.

What isn’t included on either set from those VHS’s is ‘In A Lonely Place’ and the ‘Prime 5-8-6’ video from ‘AFV’, the Hacienda footage (again using ‘Prime 5-8-6’ soundtrack) from ‘AFO’ and the BM video from ‘Shorts’.

I’m kind of hoping that the respective promo videos are featured on a ‘Substance 1987’ Definitive Edition. This could include all videos for the singles, and would include the original BM video, plus the ‘reimagined’ videos that Shamberg did for ‘Ceremony’, ‘EGG’ and ‘Temptation’.

Hmmm, I missed the two tracks from the ‘A Factory Complication’ VHS. They aren’t on either set.

The quality of those tracks ain’t the best though, which may be why they weren’t included.

I wonder if the filming of the Kilkenny gig was just someone at the back of the hall zooming in and out and across back and forth now and then ( like the Peppermint Lounge vid) ? Or was it professionally filmed by the BBC but then they later deemed it not good enough to broadcast? Bernard was a little drunk by the sounds of it though there’s great performances of Confusion & Temptation on the audio. The BBC, if they did film it, felt it was better to just air the audio, not the video?

The Hacienda July 83 inclusion on one of the DVDs should be great as if the whole gig was filmed like the clips shown on the Play At Home doc, there’s multiple camera angles, not just one camera at the back zooming in and out. Should compliment the Play At Home doc well on that same disc.Though there will be a little repetition of Thieves Like Us, Lonesome Tonight and Temptation across the Play At Home doc and the whole Hac July 83 gig video.

Fotzepolitic wrote: I wonder if the filming of the Kilkenny gig was just someone at the back of the hall zooming in and out and across back and forth now and then ( like the Peppermint Lounge vid) ? Or was it professionally filmed by the BBC but then they later deemed it not good enough to broadcast? Bernard was a little drunk by the sounds of it though there’s great performances of Confusion & Temptation on the audio. The BBC, if they did film it, felt it was better to just air the audio, not the video?

The Hacienda July 83 inclusion on one of the DVDs should be great as if the whole gig was filmed like the clips shown on the Play At Home doc, there’s multiple camera angles, not just one camera at the back zooming in and out. Should compliment the Play At Home doc well on that same disc.Though there will be a little repetition of Thieves Like Us, Lonesome Tonight and Temptation across the Play At Home doc and the whole Hac July 83 gig video.

Kilkenny is a single camera crew shot video.

Hacienda - July 83 is the pro-shot outtake footage from Play At Home, the only source we could find was a timecoded VHS though.

Still kind of reeling from this.

3 complete gigs!!!

2 of them from New Order’s own ‘back garden’ and the other also considered an absolute classic.

Seriously can’t wait for this to come out.

I'm ready for a lot of Peter Hook Light releases on CD .

Everything so far ASAP

,And ASAP the Technique and Republic songs .

Make It Happen please Peter ,

We Love You Enormously

That Is All

The Shadow wrote: This is going to be THE box set, can’t wait, greatest album ever

Yep, probably out of all the box sets they're planning to do this is the most important to me.Would like a Low-life one but if they don't get round to that it's not the end of the world.Depends on sales maybe? I mean, does anyone know how many Movement definitive boxes sold to date? If they're not selling then it's doubtful there'll be more after the P,C & L one? A lot of the planning etc for this one was done and readied before the Movement box release? But not in the case of a Low-life one? Or maybe they're to the hell with it and they're going to do the whole series of boxes regardless of poor sales? Or maybe it doesn't take too many sales to recoup production costs.I don't know how things work business wise with things like this.

Have faith.

I think the band are big enough to sustain a project as ambitious as this.

There’s a lot of people who love Low Life & Technique (myself included). They’re consistently rated as masterpieces of the genre (if you can, indeed, define a genre).

I’m sure sales will sustain the 80s LPs at the very least.

perspexorange wrote: Have faith.

I think the band are big enough to sustain a project as ambitious as this.

There’s a lot of people who love Low Life & Technique (myself included). They’re consistently rated as masterpieces of the genre (if you can, indeed, define a genre).

I’m sure sales will sustain the 80s LPs at the very least.

Well yes. I’m still just interested to know how many Movement boxes sold though.

Fotzepolitic wrote:

perspexorange wrote: Have faith.

I think the band are big enough to sustain a project as ambitious as this.

There’s a lot of people who love Low Life & Technique (myself included). They’re consistently rated as masterpieces of the genre (if you can, indeed, define a genre).

I’m sure sales will sustain the 80s LPs at the very least.

Well yes. I’m still just interested to know how many Movement boxes sold though.

I'm not sure what they pressed but they're out of stock at Warners now, so all of them.

That’s great news!

And, sorry Fotz - I didn’t mean to come across all ‘high and mighty’ with my ‘Have Faith’ comment. Blame a boozy Saturday night and my inability to articulate my thoughts.

This collection would be crap without Technique and a reloaded Substance.

i'm sure there will be more copies of the power corruption and lies boxset.

i can see a low-life one, but my attention would be over at that point

brotherhood and onward would be very iffy, as far as tracks and boxsets go.

the rest aren't as definitive to me. but a singles boxset would be the ultimate release, if done correctly.

later -1

A guy on the Steve Hoffman forums is saying that he's heard it's indefinitely postponed?! Please say he's talking out of his arse 😕

Any news on this box set? Or will I spend my cash on a Depeche Mode box set instead??

Col72 wrote: Any news on this box set? Or will I spend my cash on a Depeche Mode box set instead??

Gone very quiet hasn't it?

I think the original details leaked on the French FNAC site?

Everything has disappeared since then - only the Confusion 12" remains https://www.fnac.com/a13846387/New-Order-Confusion-Edition-Limitee-Maxi-vinyle

but that is not on sale yet

Paging Johnny James.

I'm sure it's still forthcoming. They wouldn't have gone to all this trouble to NOT release it.

I don't know the current schedule for it, it's gone into next year now for one reason and another.

The Hoffman guy was right in a way in that it was taken off the schedules for a while.

Johnny James wrote: I don't know the current schedule for it, it's gone into next year now for one reason and another.

The Hoffman guy was right in a way in that it was taken off the schedules for a while.

Well, this sounds at least a little hopeful.

I don’t mind a delay of a couple of months or so. As long as we get it.

I'm kinda late to the party to speculate on content, but I was going to ponder, would Taras Shevchenko have felt out of place on this set? I guess so, which is a shame since it didn't make the cut for the Movement box. It would be nice to see that out there again.

I didn't pick up the Movement box, JJ's news about Warner clearing their stock is making me think about it a second time. There's still boxes floating around shops in Newcastle.

Jonathan wrote: I'm kinda late to the party to speculate on content, but I was going to ponder, would Taras Shevchenko have felt out of place on this set? I guess so, which is a shame since it didn't make the cut for the Movement box. It would be nice to see that out there again.

I didn't pick up the Movement box, JJ's news about Warner clearing their stock is making me think about it a second time. There's still boxes floating around shops in Newcastle.

There’s at least one in our local HMV too (Shrewsbury).

I’m guessing, though, that Warners won’t repress the sets. So once they’re gone, they’ll be very difficult to find.

If you’re sitting on the face, get one now, whilst you still can. You won’t regret it. The Hurrah’s and Peppermint Lounge footage alone is worth the price.

Is that ‘3 16’ DVD with ‘Taras’ on it still available, does anyone know? (Can’t see it on Amazon).

Thanks for the heads-up. I see a set in my local record store for £110, including the four singles. I see the set w/o the singles for £70 on Amazon UK. So £40 for the four singles, or £10 each. I don't actually own "Everything's Gone Green" in any physical form yet, but I have the others (except Ceremony version 2). Did "Procession" not get the re-issue treatment? What a weird omission. I don't have that one either. I guess £70 makes more sense then for me but I do like supporting my local record store. Gah! decisions…

Yeah, I guess it’s a bit odd not to include ‘Procession’, but it’s a bit of an oddity in that it didn’t get a 12” release.

I’m guessing that’s why it’s been omitted.

They made a nice job of the 12”s (inner sleeves etc.), despite a small number of inaccuracies.

I’m really hoping for the ‘full works’ when the mighty ‘Blue Monday’ is released. Die-cut, silver inner etc.

It would be cool if the Substance box included the Procession 7", but I'm not bothered if I doesn't - I have seven of the nine colors.

I'm wondering if Substance will stay true to the original and only feature the remixes up to True Faith, rolling TBTHOG and everything after into the Technique box? Also wonder if we'll get two 12"s each for Fine Time, Round & Round, and World In Motion?

50poundnote wrote: It would be cool if the Substance box included the Procession 7", but I'm not bothered if I doesn't - I have seven of the nine colors.

I'm wondering if Substance will stay true to the original and only feature the remixes up to True Faith, rolling TBTHOG and everything after into the Technique box? Also wonder if we'll get two 12"s each for Fine Time, Round & Round, and World In Motion?

I'm hoping we get 2 x 12"s for the ones you mentioned. Also hoping for 'Blue Monday 1988'.

But these seem such a way off at the moment.

Would love some news on the PC&L box...

Is a Substance box confirmed, or just rumoured? We did get a deluxe vinyl "Singles" re-issue not that long ago, so I'm not sure how well a Substance box would do, but I guess that was all 7" versions. And it would depend on all the extras.

Did anyone screengrab or save the pics/mock-ups of the P,C&L box? I missed them at the time. TIA!

Jonathan wrote: Is a Substance box confirmed, or just rumoured?

It hasn’t been confirmed. I think we’re all kind of hoping for it.

Again, it’s a bit of an oddity really, isn’t it? In theory, as it’s a compilation, you wouldn’t expect it to get the ‘definitive’ treatment. However, ‘Substance’ is so important in the New Order canon of works, it really transcends purely ‘compilation’ status.

It would possibly be helpful to the programme to have it released too. If it isn’t, they’d have to tag the 4 x 12”s (2 x True Faith, TBTHOG and Blue Monday 1988) alongside the 2 x Brotherhood era 12”s or 7 x Technique era 12”s (Fine Time x 2, R&R x2, Run, WIM x2).

I suppose the other point though is what bonus stuff would a ‘Substance’ definitive edition include? The reissues seem to be steering away from including edits / remixes etc., so what bonus CD stuff could you include that wouldn’t be best included on the Brotherhood / Technique LP sets? I’m guessing that, if they did release it, the LP would be somewhat expanded but they’d have to add a reasonable amount of bonus stuff to make it worth a purchase

The ‘Salvation’ stuff is the obvious thing that springs to mind but what else?

The DVDs for the set should be easy to compile with lots of great gigs around the time (some of which were hopefully filmed).

perspexorange wrote:

Jonathan wrote: Is a Substance box confirmed, or just rumoured?

It hasn’t been confirmed. I think we’re all kind of hoping for it.

Again, it’s a bit of an oddity really, isn’t it? In theory, as it’s a compilation, you wouldn’t expect it to get the ‘definitive’ treatment. However, ‘Substance’ is so important in the New Order canon of works, it really transcends purely ‘compilation’ status.

It would possibly be helpful to the programme to have it released too. If it isn’t, they’d have to tag the 4 x 12”s (2 x True Faith, TBTHOG and Blue Monday 1988) alongside the 2 x Brotherhood era 12”s or 7 x Technique era 12”s (Fine Time x 2, R&R x2, Run, WIM x2).

I suppose the other point though is what bonus stuff would a ‘Substance’ definitive edition include? The reissues seem to be steering away from including edits / remixes etc., so what bonus CD stuff could you include that wouldn’t be best included on the Brotherhood / Technique LP sets? I’m guessing that, if they did release it, the LP would be somewhat expanded but they’d have to add a reasonable amount of bonus stuff to make it worth a purchase

The ‘Salvation’ stuff is the obvious thing that springs to mind but what else?

The DVDs for the set should be easy to compile with lots of great gigs around the time (some of which were hopefully filmed).

My guess is that they will just continue with the 12" re-issues throughout the Substance era and leave it at that

That would leave the Procession/EGG 7" as the only original vinyl single tracks un-reissued. The 1987 versions of Temptation and Confusion are not exactly essential, and the only other differences were a few shortened edits

It's been a while since we heard anything about this.

Does anyone have any details at all? Even if it's just 'the project is still going ahead' type news, that'd be ok.

Yeah getting a bit annoying that it’s all gone quiet on this. No updates or anything.Can someone ask Steve on Twitter or something what’s happening with this box set?

It was mentioned in the last Mojo, no date though but a positive sign

There is a holding page on UK Amazon https://www.amazon.co.uk/Power-Corruption-Lies-Boc-DVD/dp/B07YGM16Y7

and a page on Amazon Ital that lists the release date as 24th Jan

https://www.amazon.it/Power-Corruption-Lies-Boc-Dvd/dp/B07YGM16Y7

I guess to see it that soon is unlikely - given that they did a series of promo shorts for the Movement box you'd expect the same again. Maybe being recorded in Miami while they are all together?

GotBlueEyes wrote: It was mentioned in the last Mojo, no date though but a positive sign

Not sure if this is the same issue of Mojo, but this was posted on the joydiv.org forums by another user:

Adman wrote: Reading the latest copy of Mojo magazine in W.H.Smiths this morning...

...yet another mag with a Joy Division cover and article.

Also has a JD inspired cover mount CD...

...which does at least have an ACR track and one by Wire.

In the article it confirms there will be a Closer 40th Anniversary release this year - but gives no details.

Confirms Definitive PCL box for March and second Steve Morris book for November.

So, March, Maybe?

March isn’t that far away really so you’d think there’d have been an official announcement by now. Movement box was officially announced over 3 months before release.

As painful as it is to say, I think 1 definitive box per year is actually more realistic. Feels a bit rushed to have 2 per year though I’ll be more than happy to be proved wrong and see a Low Life one at the end of this year after a P,C & L one in the early part of the year, hopefully.

I thought that too. I'm guessing that, at the time of writing, it was possibly correct, but things have slipped again since (hopefully not by much).

Just saw this https://www.amazon.co.uk/Power-Corruption-Lies-Boc-DVD/dp/B07YGM16Y7/ref=sr\_1\_1?crid=Z9BI3D8CDQC1&keywords=new+order+power+corruption+and+lies+box+set&qid=1579469791&sprefix=new+order+power%2Caps%2C472&sr=8-1

It's definitely not happening in March, I may as well tell you. There are some aspects of it being reworked and the delay is open ended at the moment so I've no idea when it'll get scheduled just now. I'm sure it'll happen, just maybe later in the year.

Ah, OK, Johnny.

Although it’s a bit disappointing that it isn’t happening as soon as March, it’s nice to know that it’s still in the pipeline.

Many thanks for the update.

Johnny James wrote: It's definitely not happening in March, I may as well tell you. There are some aspects of it being reworked and the delay is open ended at the moment so I've no idea when it'll get scheduled just now. I'm sure it'll happen, just maybe later in the year.

Thanks Johnny, hopefully we'll see this before next years Low-Life box set.... 👍

Just wondered if this is still happening (fingers crossed) and, if so, when we might get an announcement.

I'm sure there's no doubt it's happening, surely? I wouldn't be surprised if COVID-19 is delaying all sorts of projects so there might be further slippage though

Johnny James wrote: aspects

yeah ... these sets require many matters to be resolved, the least of which are mastering or production related.

September is the current target for PCL, but not set in concrete.

Be thankful for each set that materialises as our response/demand is a major factor.

Just thought I'd mention that, during the live chat with Hooky and Jack onon the latter's Instagram account last Wednesday (22/04/20), Hooky had this to say:

Q: What’s the latest on the PC&L boxset?’

A “The problems have been smoothed over and I am talking to the record company tomorrow (23/04/20), actually, to finalise the set list and get it going. So, yeah, it’s on the way. I’ve seen the pictures which are very good. Dave Simpson is doing the foreword and the history, which I’m delighted about. I did that interview the day before yesterday, on the ‘phone to him for an hour and a half. So it’s going to be quite detailed. Dave is very good and he is very fair between us all. Which is what is the important thing. Yeah, it's well on the way actually. I mean the records will be coming out pretty much, probably, I would’ve thought it’ll be June. They will set the date and it will come out. It’s like the auction (of Hook’s New Order memorabilia); those things are easy to do. It’s just all the stuff that we do as people, you know, that we won’t be able to do, which is the bad bit."

I personally think June seems a little hopeful (there's usually at least three months lead-in times on things like this, even under non-lockdown circumstances). Hope I'm wrong though. I could do with some cheering up, and a load of bonus audio / video from one of the greatest LPs ever recorded would certainly do that. Even if it's not quite ready by June, it's still pretty positive stuff.

I will say that the chat with Hooky and Jack was very enjoyable and can recommend everyone to attend the next one (next Tuesday, I think).

I know Jack occasionally visits these boards so, if he's reading this, many thanks to him and his dad. I really look forward to the next one. A fun hour amongst two great bass players.

He probably meant an announcement in June.

It definitely won't be out by then, but we are making progress.

According to Mojo it was slated for March. But apparently there's some kind of virus going round.

Michael Monkhouse wrote: According to Mojo it was slated for March. But apparently there's some kind of virus going round.

It's ok.just follow Trump's advice and knock down a bottle of Dettol to cure it.Sorted.

Johnny James wrote: He probably meant an announcement in June.

It definitely won't be out by then, but we are making progress.

Thanks JJ. He definitely said 'the records', but it was either an error or wishful thinking.

It did seem highly unlikely, but it was good to hear that there was progress. And also good to have you confirm this.

Fotz wrote:

Michael Monkhouse wrote: According to Mojo it was slated for March. But apparently there's some kind of virus going round.

It's ok.just follow Trump's advice and knock down a bottle of Dettol to cure it.Sorted.

You can't drink it! That'd be crazy! Trump said to inject it.

So, as I type this, I'm connected up to a drip, piping in 2 x litres of Toilet Duck (TM). Lemon Fresh! Mmm!

What's the difference between coronavirus and my mother's legs? Coronavirus won't spread forever.

Michael Monkhouse wrote: What's the difference between coronavirus and my mother's legs? Coronavirus won't spread forever.

Insight(ful).....

perspexorange wrote:

Johnny James wrote: He probably meant an announcement in June.

It definitely won't be out by then, but we are making progress.

Thanks JJ. He definitely said 'the records', but it was either an error or wishful thinking.

It did seem highly unlikely, but it was good to hear that there was progress. And also good to have you confirm this.

Unless he meant the Blue Monday & Confusion 12"s as "the records". We know that they were pressed late last year and are sat in warehouses

It's certainly possible. I would think, though, that they'd want to release them all at the same time, as promotion for the box set.

But I'd happily be proved wrong. Let's get them out there.

I'm just hoping that the 'rethink' of box set contents isn't too drastic. If contents have, indeed, changed, hopefully this is to our benefit, i.e. even more content. I just hope things haven't been removed.

Still quiet for news about this boxed set. Find myself craving it now, to liven up my working from home. Saw a rumour it was being manufactured. Any news of a release date yet?

Probably wishful thinking on my part, but wondered if, now that the Closer + 12”s have been released, that an announcement may be imminent.

Great news! And as my employer won't be getting us back in the office until at least January - and I'm spending as much time as possible indoors due to being "at risk" - this couldn't have come at a better time - much needed light relief!

As with 'Movement', I've just opted for the set itself. Hoping the 12" releases will appear on digital stores soon afterwards (as they did with the first set), so I can download lossless versions from Qobuz again. I'm sure the repressed 12 inches are lovely products, but I've already bought them on vinyl years ago, and don't like too many repeats in my music collection!

I've pre-ordered from the New Order store (along with those little 'True Faith' badges, which look pretty cool). When the PCL box is on Amazon, I'll pre-order it there too (the price guarantee enabled me to get 'Movement' a bit cheaper than the New Order store before). I'll cancel whichever store ends up being most expensive. Great stuff!

Haven't analysed it yet, but is there much difference between the leaked and final tracklistings?

Blue Monday sleeve looks like it doesn't have the original cutouts?

It looks fantastic.

ordered

Excellent! Can't wait!

Just done a quick comparison. The only difference I can spot is the following addition:

Album Session Recordings - Blue Monday Instrumental outtake

Main difference seems to be that the box is no longer pink with silver writing but burgundy with pink writing

The only tracklisting difference I can see from the leaked version earlier in the year is the addition of

Album Session Recording

Blue Monday (Instrumental Outtake)

Weirdly this track is NOT listed with an asterisk as previously unreleased?

GotBlueEyes wrote: Main difference seems to be that the box is no longer pink with silver writing but burgundy with pink writing

The only tracklisting difference I can see from the leaked version earlier in the year is the addition of

Album Session Recording

Blue Monday (Instrumental Outtake)

Weirdly this track is NOT listed with an asterisk as previously unreleased?

On the SuperDeluxeEdition website, this track is listed with a *. It therefore seems likely that it's purely a typo on the NO Store.

https://www.superdeluxeedition.com/news/new-order-power-corruption-lies-definitive-edition-box-set/#comment-1630709

Wooh! Finally! Couldn't see a release date in the email but searching online it appears it's 2nd October? Will deffo snap up a copy but undecided yet on the 12" re-releases.I have at least 2 copies of Blue Monday 12" already so may give the re- release of that a miss but will quite possible snap up Confusion, TLU and Murder re-releases.Actually, if i'm buying those 3 anyway i might as well complete the set and buy the BM re-release as well.

A lot of money going out of my account come September/October as i've also pre-ordered the £80 box set version with the lenticular cover of Doves' upcoming album due in September.

What's up with "Blue Monday" not having a die cut sleeve? Surely Warners has more money to blow than Factory did.

-Mike

Wheh hey! The Countdown (as in Veronica's Countdown?) performance of Confusion will be included on one of the DVDs, did we already know that? News to me, maybe i missed that in the original info a few months back.And an instrumental take of the Peel Session of Too Late? Can't recall that in the list from a few months ago either.So all great news

GotBlueEyes wrote: Main difference seems to be that the box is no longer pink with silver writing but burgundy with pink writing

I think that burgundy is the book.Box itself is still pink.

NotAMod wrote: When compiling my digital copy of the Movement box-set I "recreated" the much maligned 2008 Collector's Edition bonus disc tracklist but used the Frank Arkwright masterings sourced from Qobuz. The only track not of the era not digitally reissued at the time was "Procession" due to the focus on 12" but I nabbed a rip of that from the 2016 Singles remaster (also by Arkwright).

I found adding the recreated Collector's Edition bonus disc in-between the main album and demos disc made for an even "definitive-r" box-set in digital form. I think the only track missing was the 7" version of Hurt, which I don't believe has been digitally reissued so far.

I'll be doing the same thing again for my digital copy of the PC&L box-set... the corresponding Collector's Edition bonus disc tracklist was:

1 Blue Monday (12" version) 2 The Beach 3 Confusion (12" version) 4 Thieves Like Us (12" version) 5 Lonesome Tonight (12" version) 6 Murder 7 Thieves Like Us (Instrumental) 8 Confusion (Instrumental)

The 7" edits of Confusion and TLU can also be sourced from 2016's Singles.

My theory as to why they're not including discs with the 12" versions is because they're gearing up to a mega-reissue of Substance... although that's purely a guess on my part!

This is where cans of worms can be opened regarding what can be defined as a "complete" listing, as it's worth noting that the 2008 Collector's Edition CD two featured alternative versions of 'The Beach' and 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' that weren't on the original 12" releases. 'The Beach' was a slightly different take that was previously unreleased (and no doubt included in error); 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' was again an alternate take which (I'm told) appeared on the US 'Shellshock' 12" b-side (possibly also in error back then). So, to be a complete playlist, would you need to include both versions of these dub mixes now?

Very similar situation with 'in A Lonely Place', where some pressings of the 2nd 'Ceremony' release featured an alternate version in error - the same version that was on 'Substance'. However, both the 'Definitive Edition' re-release 12" and digital equivalents corrected this and featured the intended take (the first time it was available digitally). So, should a true 'Definitive' playlist include both versions - or just ignore the one released in error as it was never intended for release.

Similarly, the PCL 2008 Collector's Edition had a version of 'Murder' with a slightly longer intro that the 12" or 'Substance' versions.

This stuff can be a nightmare!

Fotz wrote: Wheh hey! The Countdown (as in Veronica's Countdown?) performance of Confusion will be included on one of the DVDs, did we already know that? News to me, maybe i missed that in the original info a few months back.And an instrumental take of the Peel Session of Too Late? Can't recall that in the list from a few months ago either.So all great news

Yep - both were listed originally. I was indeed excited when I noticed the 'Countdown' performance, as would love to see that. Imagine - a live in studio take of that song. Great stuff!

Mr Discography wrote: 'The Beach' was a slightly different take that was previously unreleased (and no doubt included in error)

I had no idea of this. Do you know how they differ?

Nice, looking forward to it.

However, like last time, I will wait for a price reduction, sale or other copy.

Glad to see these projects moving along.

later -1

I'm wondering if Bernard's introduction to 'Confusion' at The Metropol, Berlin, 1984 is included in the DVD:

"Right. You're the most miserable fucking audience we've ever played to in our fucking lives. I never, ever want to come back to Berlin. Ever. You miserable fucking BASTARDS!!!

"

I'm guessing this bit may be excised.

Don't "beat about the bush", Bernard. Tell us what you really think.

The 4 re-released singles will be released all on the same day as the box set, not week by week leading up to box set release like the way they did with the Movement box? Is that correct?

I'm looking forward to it! Bonus discs are:

Power Corruption And Lies - Extras (CD) Writing Session Recordings

1. Age Of Consent *
2. The Village *
3. 5 8 6 *
4. Your Silent Face *
5. Ecstacy *
6. Leave Me Alone * John Peel Session
7. Turn The Heater On
8. We All Stand
9. Too Late
10. 5 8 6 John Peel Session Outtake
11. Too Late (instrumental rough mix) *

New York demo #1 12. Thieves Like Us* Writing Session Recordings 13. Thieves Like Us * 14. Murder * 15. Blue Monday * 16. Blue Monday * Album Session Recording 17. Blue Monday (Instrumental Outtake) *Previously unreleased

I can't justify the $370.00 price tag, I'll just stream it legally for zero dollars. Lovely looking package though, vinyl collectors must be happy.

Release date is 02/10/2020. At this rate we'll get Technique in 5 years time from now.

Fotz wrote: The 4 re-released singles will be released all on the same day as the box set, not week by week leading up to box set release like the way they did with the Movement box? Is that correct?

Yep. Same day, I believe.

Sage_ wrote: At this rate we'll get Technique in 5 years time from now.

Well, originally, one website had this listed for 08/11/19 (see page 1 of this thread). With hindsight, it seems likely that this was the original scheduled date, based on the fact that it said 2 x DVDs (Movement only had 1 x DVD). We know that it was delayed at least once more (when it leaked as being out in January 2020).

So, therefore, this set has potentially been delayed by 11 months. A Nov '19 release hints at a possible original plan to release a set every 6-7 months.

If this is correct and they manage stick to it, we could get to Technique much sooner than 5 years...

In theory. Of course, there's quite likely to be some more hiccups along the way, but hopefully the sets won't be delayed as much as PC&L has been.

perspexorange wrote: I'm wondering if Bernard's introduction to 'Confusion' at The Metropol, Berlin, 1984 is included in the DVD:

"Right. You're the most miserable fucking audience we've ever played to in our fucking lives. I never, ever want to come back to Berlin. Ever. You miserable fucking BASTARDS!!!

"

I'm guessing this bit may be excised.

Don't "beat about the bush", Bernard. Tell us what you really think.

I kept the guitar jam that leads to Confusion in there, but no between song banter on that occasion.

Johnny James wrote:

I kept the guitar jam that leads to Confusion in there, but no between song banter on that occasion.

Very diplomatic of you.

That's an absolute classic Barneyism. He must've been having a particularly bad day.

I've probably said this before Johnny, but many thanks for your continued work on these sets.
This one looks even better than 'Movement', which was damn near perfect.

perspexorange wrote:

Mr Discography wrote: 'The Beach' was a slightly different take that was previously unreleased (and no doubt included in error)

I had no idea of this. Do you know how they differ?

There's some missing production elements early on. I think we're talking about the corrected versions of the Collector's Editions? They will have used the studio analogue master which wasn't quite the final mix down. The actual master is on a U-Matic and features a small edit section that needs to be cut into it to complete it. This time round we couldn't get that U-Matic to play so had to use an analogue EQ'd production master reel for The Beach. Blue Monday is straight from a studio master reel.

Oh - quick question. Was the 'Album Session Recording - Blue Monday (Instrumental Outtake)' a late addition, or was it just accidentally missed off the 'leaked' contents list last year?

If it was a late addition, was it something found late on (i.e. in Hooky's bin)?

I sure hope the remastered singles will be available digitally in high-resolution in the USA. That was not the case with the movement era singles for whatever reason. A shame, and quite honestly lost revenue for the banisters and concerned.

perspexorange wrote: Oh - quick question. Was the 'Album Session Recording - Blue Monday (Instrumental Outtake)' a late addition, or was it just accidentally missed off the 'leaked' contents list last year?

If it was a late addition, was it something found late on (i.e. in Hooky's bin)?

I think we'd already decided to add it (it was a later addition than the rest), though the listing that was leaked was a slightly old one anyway.

Johnny James wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

Mr Discography wrote: 'The Beach' was a slightly different take that was previously unreleased (and no doubt included in error)

I had no idea of this. Do you know how they differ?

There's some missing production elements early on. I think we're talking about the corrected versions of the Collector's Editions? They will have used the studio analogue master which wasn't quite the final mix down. The actual master is on a U-Matic and features a small edit section that needs to be cut into it to complete it. This time round we couldn't get that U-Matic to play so had to use an analogue EQ'd production master reel for The Beach. Blue Monday is straight from a studio master reel.

So does that mean the version of 'The Beach' on the new 12" reissue is true to the one on the original 83 12" (and 'Substance')?

Also, on the subject of 'Substance', someone on superdeluxeedition has said "Apparently there’s a Substance box planned in the same format that will hoover up the various single versions. Expect a long wait for that one though, studio albums first…" Any truth in this rumour Johnny?

Mr Discography wrote:

Johnny James wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

Mr Discography wrote: 'The Beach' was a slightly different take that was previously unreleased (and no doubt included in error)

I had no idea of this. Do you know how they differ?

There's some missing production elements early on. I think we're talking about the corrected versions of the Collector's Editions? They will have used the studio analogue master which wasn't quite the final mix down. The actual master is on a U-Matic and features a small edit section that needs to be cut into it to complete it. This time round we couldn't get that U-Matic to play so had to use an analogue EQ'd production master reel for The Beach. Blue Monday is straight from a studio master reel.

So does that mean the version of 'The Beach' on the new 12" reissue is true to the one on the original 83 12" (and 'Substance')?

Also, on the subject of 'Substance', someone on superdeluxeedition has said "Apparently there’s a Substance box planned in the same format that will hoover up the various single versions. Expect a long wait for that one though, studio albums first…" Any truth in this rumour Johnny?

The Beach should be true to the original 12", it probably uses the exact same tape.

Substance has been worked on, but at the moment there aren't any specific plans as to what formats it would come out on. Ideas are being kicked around.

Johnny James wrote: Substance has been worked on, but at the moment there aren't any specific plans as to what formats it would come out on. Ideas are being kicked around.

That sounds positive. Although off this thread's topic, here's my opinion...

I hope they keep the tracks exactly as they appeared on the original release (with the 1987 re-recorded 'Temptation' and 'Confusion'), as it's my favourite album by any artist (regardless of it being a compilation), and I'd like it remastered in its original form. The only tweak I'd make for the main album on the CD version, is stick back in the 40 or so seconds originally edited out of 'The Perfect Kiss' due to early CD running time constraints to be the full 12" as it was on the original 'Substance' vinyl (as modern day CDs can hold 4-5 more minutes in total at 79:58 or thereabouts).

The other edited 12" versions ('Subculture', 'Shellshock') should remain in their truncated edited 'Substance' forms, as I feel they benefited from being shortened down from what were very lengthy 12" mixes. The full versions of these 12" mixes will, after all, get re-released to accompany the 'Low-life (Definitive Edition)' boxed set.

Perhaps they could expand 'Substance (Definitive Edition)' to 3 CDs to mirror the tracklist of the original 2 x cassette which include 'Procession', the extra B-sides and dubs (not all of which appeared on the original CD 2 due to time constraints) with the Substance edit of 'Hurt', for the same reason as 'Shellshock' and 'Subculture' above. You'd also need 'Murder' in there somewhere too, either after 'Thieves' on CD1 (as per the tape), or inbetween 'Lonesome Tonight' and 'Thieves (Instrumental) on CD2. Don't mind which.

And bung in a few tasty live sets from the era on the DVD - that gig where they played 'Substance' in order if a video exists?

I'd also love it if they digitally release all the 7 inches to accompany a 'Substance' box. There's a few unique B-side and dub version edits that have never come out digitally, and it'd be great to see those on download stores and Spotify too with their original cover art.

Mr Discography wrote:

Johnny James wrote: Substance has been worked on, but at the moment there aren't any specific plans as to what formats it would come out on. Ideas are being kicked around.

That sounds positive. Although off this thread's topic, here's my opinion...

I hope they keep the tracks exactly as they appeared on the original release (with the 1987 re-recorded 'Temptation' and 'Confusion'), as it's my favourite album by any artist (regardless of it being a compilation), and I'd like it remastered in its original form. The only tweak I'd make for the main album on the CD version, is stick back in the 40 or so seconds originally edited out of 'The Perfect Kiss' due to early CD running time constraints to be the full 12" as it was on the original 'Substance' vinyl (as modern day CDs can hold 4-5 more minutes in total at 79:58 or thereabouts).

The other edited 12" versions ('Subculture', 'Shellshock') should remain in their truncated edited 'Substance' forms, as I feel they benefited from being shortened down from what were very lengthy 12" mixes. The full versions of these 12" mixes will, after all, get re-released to accompany the 'Low-life (Definitive Edition)' boxed set.

Perhaps they could expand 'Substance (Definitive Edition)' to 3 CDs to mirror the tracklist of the original 2 x cassette which include 'Procession', the extra B-sides and dubs (not all of which appeared on the original CD 2 due to time constraints) with the Substance edit of 'Hurt', for the same reason as 'Shellshock' and 'Subculture' above. You'd also need 'Murder' in there somewhere too, either after 'Thieves' on CD1 (as per the tape), or inbetween 'Lonesome Tonight' and 'Thieves (Instrumental) on CD2. Don't mind which.

And bung in a few tasty live sets from the era on the DVD - that gig where they played 'Substance' in order if a video exists?

I'd also love it if they digitally release all the 7 inches to accompany a 'Substance' box. There's a few unique B-side and dub version edits that have never come out digitally, and it'd be great to see those on download stores and Spotify too with their original cover art.

I think you have to use the 87 versions, as they're part and parcel of the original release. The originals were on Singles anyway (remastered). I'd say the Perfect Kiss edit adds nothing so use the full one. Also, I'd use the correct In A Lonely Place as again, that alternate (not quite finished mix) adds nothing. I'm definitely into using the cassette extra tracks over two CDs. Yes to the other edits, Hurt, Shellshock, Sub Culture.

If it was done as a box of some sort, adding more content could be tricky. We'll probably use the better material for DVDs on the Definitve albums. That Substance show does exist on audio cassette but is far from perfect (tape flips missing a bit), no video of it. So, I dunno if there much we could add.

Johnny James wrote:

I think you have to use the 87 versions, as they're part and parcel of the original release. The originals were on Singles anyway (remastered). I'd say the Perfect Kiss edit adds nothing so use the full one. Also, I'd use the correct In A Lonely Place as again, that alternate (not quite finished mix) adds nothing. I'm definitely into using the cassette extra tracks over two CDs. Yes to the other edits, Hurt, Shellshock, Sub Culture.

If it was done as a box of some sort, adding more content could be tricky. We'll probably use the better material for DVDs on the Definitve albums. That Substance show does exist on audio cassette but is far from perfect (tape flips missing a bit), no video of it. So, I dunno if there much we could add.

I agree with the above Johnny (Including 'In A Lonely Place'). Maybe a 4 x CD + 2 x LP 'Definitive Edition' would do the trick then:

• Original 12 track LP on double vinyl
• Original cassette tracklisting on 3 x CDs (with slight alterations/corrections stated above)
• Fourth CD featuring the seven inch B-side / dub edits never yet released digitally, plus maybe a few more mixes, exclusives or unreleased tracks /demos from the era (plus the 'Salvation' tracks?)

That'd do me nicely. Must admit, not a fan of extending the original tracklist beyond 'True Faith' / '1963'. It ceases to be purely 'Substance' then.

I've mulled over the 'Substance 1987 puzzle' a few times, and still don't really know what I'd personally want from a Definitive edition.

There's certainly a part of me that would like to keep it as close to the original as possible (although I'd certainly agree that The Perfect Kiss should be restored to its full glory).

However, there's a part of me that thinks that this is a good excuse to release the LP as it was (presumably) originally envisioned, i.e. a complete record of all their 12"s, plus b-sides, without any track being edited. Therefore, Hurt, The Perfect Kiss, Sub-Culture and Shellshock would all be their original length (I will admit though that Sub-Culture and Shellshock do 'go on a bit').

I've also toyed with the idea in my head that I'd like to see the original 12"s of Temptation and Confusion as bonus tracks, and also, perhaps, some other mixes that weren't included originally; the original Ceremony, Confused Beats and Rough Mix, The Perfect Pit, the Paradise remix, Evil Dust, True Faith Remix and Dub, Confusion Dub '87 etc.

Difficult decision.

Thanks for answering these questions, Johnny. Could I possibly just quiz you briefly about the following:

1. Just curious about the three Blue Monday variants. It seems incredible that we have early versions of this seminal track. The story always goes that the original Blue Monday was accidentally wiped by either Bernard or Steve (I think they blame the other!). Do you know if the versions included pre-date this incident? What can we expect from these? I really cannot wait to hear these.

2. As regards 'Confusion' on 'Countdown', do you know whether this was ever transmitted on TV? I have a note that it was transmitted on radio, on Veronica's sister station. Also, was consideration given to include 'Blue Monday' and the interview from the same session?

Thanks.

perspexorange wrote: I've mulled over the 'Substance 1987 puzzle' a few times, and still don't really know what I'd personally want from a Definitive edition.

There's certainly a part of me that would like to keep it as close to the original as possible (although I'd certainly agree that The Perfect Kiss should be restored to its full glory).

However, there's a part of me that thinks that this is a good excuse to release the LP as it was (presumably) originally envisioned, i.e. a complete record of all their 12"s, plus b-sides, without any track being edited. Therefore, Hurt, The Perfect Kiss, Sub-Culture and Shellshock would all be their original length (I will admit though that Sub-Culture and Shellshock do 'go on a bit').

I've also toyed with the idea in my head that I'd like to see the original 12"s of Temptation and Confusion as bonus tracks, and also, perhaps, some other mixes that weren't included originally; the original Ceremony, Confused Beats and Rough Mix, The Perfect Pit, the Paradise remix, Evil Dust, True Faith Remix and Dub, Confusion Dub '87 etc.

Difficult decision.

Thanks for answering these questions, Johnny. Could I possibly just quiz you briefly about the following:

1. Just curious about the three Blue Monday variants. It seems incredible that we have early versions of this seminal track. The story always goes that the original Blue Monday was accidentally wiped by either Bernard or Steve (I think they blame the other!). Do you know if the versions included pre-date this incident? What can we expect from these? I really cannot wait to hear these.

2. As regards 'Confusion' on 'Countdown', do you know whether this was ever transmitted on TV? I have a note that it was transmitted on radio, on Veronica's sister station. Also, was consideration given to include 'Blue Monday' and the interview from the same session?

Thanks.

Substance does cause some issues in that it's hard to know what's best. I guess we need to think about what's unique about it. There is also a case for a Substance II, though you get well into remix territory with the A sides. There's a good case for a B sides disc though.

Regarding Blue Monday. There are two early versions, one short and very slow and even includes live drumming. That one is the very birth of the track. The second one is a compiled edit of all the various sections they ran through in preparation, much more like a prototype of the final one. Steve seemed to think it could well feature the drum programming that they accidently erased. The one that got away etc. The fills sound different. The third Blue Monday is from the actual recording session and is a not quite finished version of The Beach. If you know The Beach very well you'll hear some variations and parts that ended up muted etc.

Re: Countdown, I don't think it was ever transmitted. As far as I know it was only ever the interview and one of the Blue Monday takes. The interview is actually an edit of two attempts. The licensor Reelin' In The Years have put some of one interview on You Tube, plus one of the outtake Blue Mondays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gWoGCQJDeI

I would have liked to use one of the Blue Monday takes, however we had the BBC one (Warners have a deal with the BBC, so it's affordable to use that material) and more versions seemed a little unnecesary plus it's very expensive, and you have to wonder about the value when you can see two of the three takes on You Tube anyway.

The way I see it, 'Substance' CD1 (or tape - love it both with and without 'Murder') is my all time favourite album that has accompanied me since the age of 13. If a 'Definitive Edition' CD1 differs any more than restoring 'The Perfect Kiss' to its unedited form, and maybe squeezing in 'Murder', I'll find myself continuing to play the original CD in all its tinny glory!

Am more flexible regarding padding out a CD2 and CD3 with a few more dubs and B-sides, but wouldn't want it to deviate massively from the original B-sides tape/CD (with more than one version of the same track, etc. for example) or it'll become a tiresome continuous listen. Save the other dub/mix variations and edits for a CD4 "bonus disc". Also, perhaps 'Murder' would be better placed on CD2 given there'll be more space on discs 2 and 3 - and it never appeared on the original LP or CD.

One other question Johnny. Has thought been given to where the studio album 'Definitive Editions' will end? Are they just doing Factory albums, or including 'Republic' and later releases?

Thanks for all the juicy info, by the way - fascinating and much appreciated!

Mr Discography wrote:

One other question Johnny. Has thought been given to where the studio album 'Definitive Editions' will end? Are they just doing Factory albums, or including 'Republic' and later releases?

Thanks for all the juicy info, by the way - fascinating and much appreciated!

Republic, Get Ready, WFTSC/Lost Sirens are all in the plan.

Johnny James wrote:

I think you have to use the 87 versions, as they're part and parcel of the original release. The originals were on Singles anyway (remastered). I'd say the Perfect Kiss edit adds nothing so use the full one. Also, I'd use the correct In A Lonely Place as again, that alternate (not quite finished mix) adds nothing. I'm definitely into using the cassette extra tracks over two CDs. Yes to the other edits, Hurt, Shellshock, Sub Culture.

I'd just like to say Yes to all of this. Ok, bye.

Mr Discography wrote: The way I see it, 'Substance' CD1 (or tape - love it both with and without 'Murder') is my all time favourite album that has accompanied me since the age of 13. If a 'Definitive Edition' CD1 differs any more than restoring 'The Perfect Kiss' to its unedited form, and maybe squeezing in 'Murder', I'll find myself continuing to play the original CD in all its tinny glory!

Am more flexible regarding padding out a CD2 and CD3 with a few more dubs and B-sides, but wouldn't want it to deviate massively from the original B-sides tape/CD (with more than one version of the same track, etc. for example) or it'll become a tiresome continuous listen. Save the other dub/mix variations and edits for a CD4 "bonus disc". Also, perhaps 'Murder' would be better placed on CD2 given there'll be more space on discs 2 and 3 - and it never appeared on the original LP or CD.

I think that's the vibe I'm getting, that Substance as it existed in 1987 means a lot to people, so best not to mess with that, or at least be very careful about what gets altered.

Johnny James wrote: Regarding Blue Monday. There are two early versions, one short and very slow and even includes live drumming. That one is the very birth of the track. The second one is a compiled edit of all the various sections they ran through in preparation, much more like a prototype of the final one. Steve seemed to think it could well feature the drum programming that they accidently erased. The one that got away etc. The fills sound different. The third Blue Monday is from the actual recording session and is a not quite finished version of The Beach. If you know The Beach very well you'll hear some variations and parts that ended up muted etc.

Wow! They sound absolutely brilliant! I'm even more excited to hear these now. Especially that first one. Incredible.

Johnny James wrote: Re: Countdown, I don't think it was ever transmitted. As far as I know it was only ever the interview and one of the Blue Monday takes. The interview is actually an edit of two attempts. The licensor Reelin' In The Years have put some of one interview on You Tube, plus one of the outtake Blue Mondays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gWoGCQJDeI

I would have liked to use one of the Blue Monday takes, however we had the BBC one (Warners have a deal with the BBC, so it's affordable to use that material) and more versions seemed a little unnecessary plus it's very expensive, especially as you can see two of the three takes on You Tube anyway.

Thanks for this. I've often suspected that it was never transmitted. I actually have a clip of the third take. I think it was shown on a later edition of 'Countdown' (presumably 3-4 weeks later). It has a brief introduction by the same host where he says something along the lines of 'bands can play live in our studio, like New Order did recently'. Then there's a clip of about a minute's worth of Blue Monday. It certainly looks like it's a different take from both the available versions (including the 'false start'). At the very least it's a different vision mix, as there are different camera angles.

I fully appreciate the logic for not including the well-known 'Blue Monday' on 'Countdown' footage. Much better to include the unseen 'Confusion' footage. This is one of my most anticipated bits of the box set.

As an aside, I've always been a little unsure of the timeline for 'Confusion'. I always thought that the 'Countdown' performance was recorded on 27/05/83, which is quite an early outing for the track (I guess this is after the first live performance on 11/04/83, though).

I'm just wondering then, when Arthur Baker came on the scene. I'd have thought that he presumably first wanted to work with the band after hearing 'Blue Monday', following its release in March '83. That would signify that Baker was quite 'late to the party', as regards 'Confusion'. And that doesn't seem quite right, as I've always kind of assumed that he was fairly well involved from its inception.

I think I'm presuming far too much. Maybe the band met up with Baker prior to the release of 'Blue Monday'.

Johnny James wrote:

Mr Discography wrote:

One other question Johnny. Has thought been given to where the studio album 'Definitive Editions' will end? Are they just doing Factory albums, or including 'Republic' and later releases?

Thanks for all the juicy info, by the way - fascinating and much appreciated!

Republic, Get Ready, WFTSC/Lost Sirens are all in the plan.

Ace! This is good news. Although not most fans' favourites, these LPs still contain some great stuff and they've never previously been given the degree of 'reissue' attention that the others have. Besides, there's plenty of great live performances from the era that could potentially feature on the DVD (the '98 and '01 UK gigs, were filmed, for instance).

I think they probably went over to New York in early 83, Feb March? The track was done completely over there with Arthur, as far as I know. Thieves Like Us was more of a jam over an 808 at that point (as you'll hear in October).

Johnny James wrote: That Substance show does exist on audio cassette but is far from perfect (tape flips missing a bit)

Nope!

Irvine Meadows, 12 September 1987

Introduction by Tony Wilson Ceremony Everything's Gone Green Temptation Blue Monday Confusion Thieves Like Us The Perfect Kiss Sub-Culture Shellshock State Of The Nation Bizarre Love Triangle True Faith (Tape flip before the encore, does not cut any music) Atmosphere Love Will Tear Us Apart Sister Ray (slightly edited, could be cut)

It's an audience recording, but very clean, and Drew Crumbaugh/Mr. Analogue Loyalists would be able to work his magic.

Barney makes some off-color remarks by quoting Iggy Pop's The Passenger just before True Faith, but not over the music, so they could be cut out fairly easily.

I listen to this and the Chapter 3 boot (NYC 25 August 1987) more than any other NO live recordings.

Substance absolutely need its own box.

Preserve the original as much as possible, add two CDs to collect all the B-sides and dubs, etc. Include a 7" of Procession in one of 4 random colors (red, blue, green, yellow) on heavyweight color vinyl to match.

Going forward, the Salvation tracks, TBTHOG, Blue Monday 1988, and World In Motion should be in the Technique box. Each subsequent box would have its remixes added.

perspexorange wrote:

As an aside, I've always been a little unsure of the timeline for 'Confusion'. I always thought that the 'Countdown' performance was recorded on 27/05/83, which is quite an early outing for the track (I guess this is after the first live performance on 11/04/83, though).

I'm just wondering then, when Arthur Baker came on the scene. I'd have thought that he presumably first wanted to work with the band after hearing 'Blue Monday', following its release in March '83. That would signify that Baker was quite 'late to the party', as regards 'Confusion'. And that doesn't seem quite right, as I've always kind of assumed that he was fairly well involved from its inception.

I think I'm presuming far too much. Maybe the band met up with Baker prior to the release of 'Blue Monday'.

I wonder if they originally had in mind to record and release Confusion as a single in the form it takes when played live (and that eventually was recorded and appeared on Substance) ? But then Arthur Baker got involved at some point and radically changed it to the version that was actually recorded and released on the 1983 12" ?

A thought on the 'Confusion' 12" reissue. Interesting to note that 'Confusion' segues directly into 'Confusion Beats' on the 12" - hopefully this will be preserved on the digital version. The CD re-releases of 'Confusion' 12" mix so far all have a fairly quick fade just before where this gapless transition begins on the vinyl.

50poundnote wrote: Substance absolutely need its own box.

Preserve the original as much as possible, add two CDs to collect all the B-sides and dubs, etc. Include a 7" for Procession in one of 4 random colors (red, blue, green, yellow) on heavyweight color vinyl to match.

Going forward, the Salvation tracks, TBTHOG, Blue Monday 1988, and World In Motion should be in the Technique box. Each subsequent box would have its remixes added.

I agree. With the campaign extended to WFTSC/Lost Sirens' (presumably as a combined set), I hope they release 'Substance' in chronological order between 'Brotherhood' and 'Technique' rather than leaving us waiting until all studio album boxes are out again.

I hope from 'Republic' and, to some extent 'Technique' onwards they don't rely too much on using the plethora of DJ remixes as bonus content for the box sets. A few select ones will be fine, but some of the endless DJ remixes and DJ instrumental dubs bear little relation to the original songs, and - I feel - aren't in keeping with these boxed sets which ultimately represent New Order's own output as a band. I'd sooner have more unreleased songs, outtakes and demos on the boxes - leave the remixes to be reissued on the accompanying 12" singles and digital equivalents.

Fotz wrote:

I wonder if they originally had in mind to record and release Confusion as a single in the form it takes when played live (and that eventually was recorded and appeared on Substance) ? But then Arthur Baker got involved at some point and radically changed it to the version that was actually recorded and released on the 1983 12" ?

It's the other way round. They used analogue gear to record 'Confusion' - in the case of 'Confusion' most likely Arthur Baker's gear. When played live, I think they reprogrammed and shortened the song using their own equipment.

At the time 'Substance' came out they said they wanted to re-record it (and 'Temptation') to sound more like how the live versions sound, so these live arrangements came after the studio versions were recorded.

In the case of 'Confusion', on the 'Substance' re-record, interestingly, the key was changed from D minor to A flat minor - I guess to suit Barney's vocal range better.

I'm still wondering where to buy this from.

The New Order Store £150 complete bundle (box, 4 x12", t-shirt) looks pretty good value, based on a retail price of £113 for the box, £10 for each 12", £20 for t-shirt. You theoretical get the t-shirt for free.

However, I'd like to see what the Amazon.co.uk price is first. I managed to get the 'Movement' set on release day for £89. If we're talking the same, I'd rather order the box through them and either get the 12"s from them too or the NO Store. Just need Amazon to add the items to their store for price comparison.

I was a tiny bit fed up with the NO Store recently, when my Closer + 12"s bundle arrived a week after release. I'd hate if that was the case with this PC&L set. I'm not normally that impatient, but I WANT THIS SET now!

What have other UKers done? Have you ordered from the NO Store, another store or hanging on for Amazon.co.uk?

Mr Discography wrote:

Fotz wrote:

I wonder if they originally had in mind to record and release Confusion as a single in the form it takes when played live (and that eventually was recorded and appeared on Substance) ? But then Arthur Baker got involved at some point and radically changed it to the version that was actually recorded and released on the 1983 12" ?

It's the other way round. They used analogue gear to record 'Confusion' - in the case of 'Confusion' most likely Arthur Baker's gear. When played live, I think they reprogrammed and shortened the song using their own equipment.

At the time 'Substance' came out they said they wanted to re-record it (and 'Temptation') to sound more like how the live versions sound, so these live arrangements came after the studio versions were recorded.

In the case of 'Confusion', on the 'Substance' re-record, interestingly, the key was changed from D minor to A flat minor - I guess to suit Barney's vocal range better.

Oh, so the Baker version came first? Interesting.Thanks for that.The live version was always incredible so hats off to the band for completely, well, reamagining ( that's quite a 21st century word so think i'll utilise it in thia instance) it from the original Baker version.It's so different from thee Baker version, shows what talent they had/have for coming up with their own vision of a song.Genius.

perspexorange wrote: I was a tiny bit fed up with the NO Store recently, when my Closer + 12"s bundle arrived a week after release.

Over here we have to wait for UK stock to arrive, then it gets shipped. I didn't get ∑(No,12k,Lg,17Mif) until 8 weeks after the street date, and my Closer bundle has shipped, but I don't have it yet. We're in the middle of a pandemic, so I'm not too bothered by shipping times.

perspexorange wrote:

What have other UKers done? Have you ordered from the NO Store, another store or hanging on for Amazon.co.uk?

Have'nt ordered yet.What i usually do , as with the case of ordering the Doves upcoming new album box set, is to wait til the moment comes when i'm half pissed after a few wines and i get a lightbulb moment and take the plunge and click buy haha! Oh and i also clicked on ordering Lana Del Rey's new poetry readings album due out in early October.That was also after a few wines.I know, i know, don't hate on me for buying new Lana stuff

I think that 'Confusion' is an under-appreciated classic. A brilliant example of early 80s dance.

Also, I always loved it live. Bernard playing slap bass, Hooky on guitar, then bass, Steve hitting all those samples. Fab stuff.

Talking of Hooky on guitar, anyone know what guitar he's playing on this song during PFD (there's a good shot of it at the start):

Wonderful to see the positive effect this release announcement has had on this forum. It's been so sleepy here recently, apart from those sporadic random and pointless Spice Girls posts. I've found out more useful and interesting stuff in a day than I have in the last year, I reckon. It's rejuvenated us! Great stuff!

50poundnote wrote: I didn't get ∑(No,12k,Lg,17Mif) until 8 weeks after the street date, and my Closer bundle has shipped, but I don't have it yet. We're in the middle of a pandemic, so I'm not too bothered by shipping times.

Yeah. Makes my six day wait seem a bit trivial. As I say, I'm normally OK with waiting, but I know that if I have to wait for this set, it's going to annoy me. It wouldn't be so bad if everyone was waiting, but if I, say, ordered through the NO Store and it didn't arrive, but everyone else who ordered through Amazon got it on time. That's where it would start to grate on me. Avoidable delays, rather than pandemic related etc.

Fotz wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

What have other UKers done? Have you ordered from the NO Store, another store or hanging on for Amazon.co.uk?

Have'nt ordered yet.What i usually do , as with the case of ordering the Doves upcoming new album box set, is to wait til the moment comes when i'm half pissed after a few wines and i get a lightbulb moment and take the plunge and click buy haha! Oh and i also clicked on ordering Lana Del Rey's new poetry readings album due out in early October.That was also after a few wines.I know, i know, don't hate on me for buying new Lana stuff

Yep - I tend to do these drunken purchases too. To be fair though, I never regret it. But, this set... I don't need booze to tell me I need it. This is vital to my existence. HaHa.

Hey, no judgment on Lana. What I've heard, she ain't bad at all.

Mr Discography wrote: Wonderful to see the positive effect this release announcement has had on this forum. It's been so sleepy here recently, apart from those sporadic random and pointless Spice Girls posts. I've found out more useful and interesting stuff in a day than I have in the last year, I reckon. It's rejuvenated us! Great stuff!

Yep. I think it also helps that this is such a magnificent LP and that we've been waiting for this one for a lonnnng time. 'Movement' is great, but 'PC&L' is always going to be the LP that generates the most interest.

Although 'Technique' is marginally my favourite LP over this one, if I had to say which was the band's masterpiece, it would always be 'Power, Corruption & Lies'.

^ Good call, perspexorange with that clip of Confusion from the PFD vid.

Yep, always great live.Love the version from Kilkenny and looking forward to finally seeing it on video when the box set arrives.I'd bought the Confusion 12" sometime in 1983 and was familiar to that recorded version after a while but when i listened to the Radio 1 broadcast in late December that year and heard the live version of the song for the first time i thought it sounded bloody terrible but on further and repeated listenings to the cassette i'd recorded off the radio i really grew to love the it.Like many NO songs the live Confusion builds and builds and builds in intensity to something massive and then dies exhausted at the end.Just briilliant .

Kilkenny is great and I'm thrilled that we'll get to see it. Actually listening to it now. Fab stuff. Chaotically brilliant.

Still can't believe we are getting three complete gigs. The classic Kilkenny and two in New Order's own back yard. Fantastic.

Though we get Your Silent Face and 586 twice from The Hacienda 1983 on the DVDs.I have to assume the 2 performances are from different 83 Hacienda gigs.YSF and 586 from i think January 83 on at The Hacienda on one DVD and then the same 2 songs again in the full gig July 83 on the DVD that also has the Play At Home doc.

Fotz wrote: on the DVD that also has the Play At Home doc.

Love that film. Was watching it for the umpteenth time 2-3 weeks ago. When these box sets were originally being mooted, I always hoped that 'Play At Home' would be included. It's such a great part of the New Order Story and perfectly shows the important link between them and Factory.

Still can't quite believe that we get to see Tony's cock though. I could've done without that. And to think that Gillian was mere inches away from it.

perspexorange wrote:

Mr Discography wrote: Wonderful to see the positive effect this release announcement has had on this forum. It's been so sleepy here recently, apart from those sporadic random and pointless Spice Girls posts. I've found out more useful and interesting stuff in a day than I have in the last year, I reckon. It's rejuvenated us! Great stuff!

Yep. I think it also helps that this is such a magnificent LP and that we've been waiting for this one for a lonnnng time. 'Movement' is great, but 'PC&L' is always going to be the LP that generates the most interest.

Although 'Technique' is marginally my favourite LP over this one, if I had to say which was the band's masterpiece, it would always be 'Power, Corruption & Lies'.

Yep, i think the PCL box is the most urgent to me out of the lot.Even beats Technique even though weirdly i think Technique is a better album.Go figure.Maybe it's more there's for me more personal memories for me of getting in to NO around the time of PCL.Basically it was the album that changed my life upon hearing Age Of Consent for the very first time.Technique is incredible in the way it was maybe the pinnacle of what New Order had been developing towards throughout the 80s but PCL was the album that was the massive game changer for me.

Oh, and I think Johnny confirmed back when the contents were leaked that 'Your Silent Face' and '5-8-6' were from the other Haçienda gig. So, no duplication. Apart from, I guess, the Haçienda footage included in 'Play At Home' ('Temptation', 'Lonesome Tonight' and 'Thieves Like Us' from July '83).

perspexorange wrote: I think that 'Confusion' is an under-appreciated classic. A brilliant example of early 80s dance.

Also, I always loved it live. Bernard playing slap bass, Hooky on guitar, then bass, Steve hitting all those samples. Fab stuff.

Talking of Hooky on guitar, anyone know what guitar he's playing on this song during PFD (there's a good shot of it at the start):

Yamaha SG3000 I think

perspexorange wrote:

Fotz wrote: on the DVD that also has the Play At Home doc.

Love that film. Was watching it for the umpteenth time 2-3 weeks ago. When these box sets were originally being mooted, I always hoped that 'Play At Home' would be included. It's such a great part of the New Order Story and perfectly shows the important link between them and Factory.

Still can't quite believe that we get to see Tony's cock though. I could've done without that. And to think that Gillian was mere inches away from it.

Ugh, yeah that's the only thing i dislike about Play At Home, Wilson n.. god i don;t even want to type it.I remember setting the video to record the doc the night it was aired as i , crazily, went out to play football in the park with mates instead and knew i'd get home late and my mum would be watching something else when i got home.Had to wait til the following afternoon til i got home from work to finally watch the recording.It really was a massive thing back then in 1984 when it made a massive impression to me at such a young age and still learning and finding out about New Order and Factory.Finding info or anything about New Order back then was so rare, they were like from another planet in those times.The images of the moors and roads around Manchester to the soundtrack of the intro to Thieves Like Us live intoxicated my young mind.Wow.Memories of youth.I still recommend anyone trying to work out Factory to watch Play At Home instead of the Twenty Four Hour Party People movie.

Thanks for that JJ. I didn't know that guitar, so had to Google it. It certainly looks like one. Also, knowing Hooky's love of Yamaha, it does seem likely he would use one.

Fotz wrote: I still recommend anyone trying to work out Factory to watch Play At Home instead of the Twenty Four Hour Party People movie.

Yep - it really is that good.

Just for a bit of fun, during one of my latest viewings, I had a go at trying to name everyone featured in the film.

This is what I came up with (with a bit of help from other fans):

Bernard Sumner (New Order) Peter Hook (New Order) Stephen Morris (New Order) Gillian Gilbert (New Order) Anthony H. Wilson (Factory Records) Alan Erasmus (Factory Records) Martin Hannett (Factory Records) Peter Saville (Factory Records) Rob Gretton (Factory Records) Richard Boon (Buzzcocks' manager) Bruce Mitchell (Durutti Column) Larry Cassidy (Section 25) Liz Naylor (City Fun fanzine) Michael Shamberg (Factory Records (New York)) Pete Shelley (Buzzcocks) Derek Johnson (52nd Street) Donald Johnson (A Certain Ratio) Andy Connell (A Certain Ratio / Kalima) Martin Moscrop (A Certain Ratio / Kalima) Jez Kerr (A Certain Ratio / Kalima) Vin Cassidy (Section 25) Hillegonda Rietveld (Quando Quango) Cath Carroll (Miaow) Mike Pickering (Quando Quango) Howard "Ginger" Jones (Haçienda General Manager) ? (Claude Bessy possibly)

The only one I couldn't name is the guy dancing with Rob at the Haçienda. I've guessed at Claude Bessy. You can see him at 19:49 here:

^ Haha yeah just that opening graphics and music takes me right back immediate to being 16 in 1984.Nope i never did work out who that is dancing with Rob.

Hooky talked a bit about Alan Erasmus in the recent streamed thing.Shame Mr Erasmus is seemingly reluctant to talk in front of camera these days.He always seemed to be a big part of Factory back in the day and a really nice fellow.

Johnny James wrote:

I think you have to use the 87 versions, as they're part and parcel of the original release. The originals were on Singles anyway (remastered). I'd say the Perfect Kiss edit adds nothing so use the full one. Also, I'd use the correct In A Lonely Place as again, that alternate (not quite finished mix) adds nothing. I'm definitely into using the cassette extra tracks over two CDs. Yes to the other edits, Hurt, Shellshock, Sub Culture.

If it was done as a box of some sort, adding more content could be tricky. We'll probably use the better material for DVDs on the Definitve albums. That Substance show does exist on audio cassette but is far from perfect (tape flips missing a bit), no video of it. So, I dunno if there much we could add.

A further question to consider... The original disc 2 and tape 2 has track 3 listed as 'Cries and Whispers' and track 4 as 'Mesh' - this is the order the two tracks appeared on the 'Everything's Gone Green' original 12" release. Unfortunately, the actual recordings were the wrong way round and mislabelled on 'Substance', making 3 'Mesh' and 4 'Cries And Whispers'.

So... Should a reissue preserve the actual, erroneous order that's on the physical recording - which is how we experience the progression and track flow of the 'Substance' B-sides and are familiar with it. Or... Be faithful to the actual tracks as they were listed and appeared on 'Everything's Gone Green'and swap the audio into the (presumably) intended order when 'Substance' was conceived...?

Opinions?

To whoever is the webmaster of this forum these days, I keep getting a pink banner pop up telling me "Your message was reject as it was detected as SPAM!" whenever I try to edit a post shortly after making it. Can the webmaster do something to prevent this please?

Anyone else getting this today?

Not today, but have had it in the past.

I think it might be related to non-English words.

If you use these, and then edit the post, it’ll sometimes reject it.

An example would be if you shortened Blue Monday to BM or The Perfect Kiss to TPK. I’ve noticed that, if you remove or change these type of words, you can often get it past the spam filter.

Looking at your previous post, maybe try changing the wordf ‘CD2’ to ‘disc 2’.

That might be the offending word.

perspexorange wrote: Looking at your previous post, maybe try changing the wordf ‘CD2’ to ‘disc 2’.

That might be the offending word.

Maybe I'm sheltered, but I've no idea why CD2 would be offensive, and I'm not sure why it would get through in the original post. I changed it in my original post and it got through. Then, when I re-edited immediately afterwards (to correct my quote tags - why I wanted to edit it) I got the spam message again. I think this could be more to do with frequency of posts, and how quickly there's an attempt to edit a post after it's been put up. Darned annoying.

Anyway, sort of off-topic, but thanks for the suggestions. Besides, much more interesting things to talk about than this!

What would you do about the 'Mesh'/'Cries And Whispers' business anyway - preserve the order on the recording, or adjust the recording to match the Substance and EGG track listings?

Cheers

Okay, I've cracked it - here's a proposed 3 x CD tracklist for 'Substance' 1987 (Definitive Edition)' that I think stays authentic to the original LP, CD and tape versions. It takes advantage of the free space having 2 x B-side CDs will provide by adding three "bonus tracks" that:

• (a) were on the original 12" releases;
• (b) preserve the original tape/CD running orders up to '1963'
• (c) remain in the order they were released; and
• (d) ensure no individual song appears more than once on either of the A and B side elements of the 3 main discs.

Also some suggestions for CD 4, but happy to be surprised with more exclusive stuff if it exists.

Johnny, treat this as a formal proposal to the band…

CD1 1. Ceremony (2nd version) 2. Everything's Gone Green 3. Temptation (1987 new version) 4. Blue Monday 5. Confusion (1987 new version) 6. Thieves Like Us 7. The Perfect Kiss (unedited full 12") 8. Subculture (Substance edit) 9. Shellshock (Substance edit) 10. State Of The Nation 11. Bizarre Love Triangle 12. True Faith (74:56)

CD2 1. In A Lonely Place (proper final 12" version) 2. Procession 3. Mesh 4. Cries And Whispers 5. Hurt (Substance edit) 6. The Beach 7. Confused Instrumental 8. Lonesome Tonight 9. Murder 10. Thieves Like Us Instrumental (55:07) You may want to swap Mesh and Cries And Whispers round to match the EGG 12" order and (presumably) intended running order of Substance in the tracklist that had mixed up the titles

CD3 1. Kiss Of Death 2. Dubvulture 3. Shellcock 4. Shame Of The Nation 5. Bizarre Dub Triangle 6. 1963 7. Evil Dust [bonus track] 8. Paradise (Remix) [bonus track] 9. True Dub [bonus track] (64:16)

As for CD4, I'd love to be pleasantly surprised, but here's a few suggestions to include or choose from: 1. Blue Monday (Unreleased 7" edit) 2. The Perfect Kiss (3:50 UK Edit) 3. In A Lonely Place (7") 4. Hurt (7") 5. The Beach (Unreleased 7" edit - if it exists) 6. Confusion Dub 1987 [although on later TBTHOG CD single, presumably recorded at the same time as the 'Substance' re-record, so appropriate to this era] 7. Lonesome Tonight (7") 8. Thieves Like Us (Instrumental Edit) [From 'Shellshock 7"] 9. The Kiss Of Death (5:10 Factory Benelux 7") 10. Dub-vulture (7") 11. Shame Of The Nation (7") 12. Bizarre Dub Triangle (7") 13. The Kiss Of Death (3:01 UK Edit) 14. Sub-culture (4:59 Remix Edit from Factory Benelux 7") [different to the 'Substance' Edit) 15. Bizarre Love Triangle (4:58 Extended Edit from Qwest promo 12” PRO-A-2636) 16. True Faith (Remix 7") [audio track from 'True Faith' CD Video] (59:22 excluding 'Blue Monday' / 'The Beach')

Presumably, other dubs that appeared on the original 12 inches will be swept up by their respective digital releases (such as 'Confused Beats', 'Confusion (Rough Mix)', 'Perfect Pit'), so I've avoided them here to avoid repetition. I'd happily ditch of few of the above (BLT Extended Edit, 'Subculture (Remix Edit)', 'True Faith (Remix Edit)' and the UK 'Kiss Of Death' edit for example) in favour of more exclusive unreleased treats or outtakes/demos.

Maybe also re-release these 12 inches at the same time as 'Substance', which all came out to more or less accompany 'Substance', and weren't associated with 'Brotherhood' or 'Technique', which were distinctly different eras:

• True Faith
• True Faith Remix (with 'Paradise (Remix)' to mirror the Australian release - instead of repeating '1963' which is already on the first 'True Faith' 12"
• Touched By The Hand Of God (which came out soon after 'Substance' and shared similar cover art to 'True Faith')
• Blue Monday 1988

How's that for a proposal for the band to consider..?

Cheers!

Glad that amending ‘CD2’ fixed it for you. I don’t think it’s because it thinks the word is offensive, just that it doesn’t recognise it as a word. Why it only rejects these when being edited, rather than when they’re first posted, I’ve no idea. Yeah - I’ve also noticed that ‘quick edits’ cause spam problems too.

As regards ‘Mesh’ and ‘Cries & Whispers’, I’d personally preserve the order as per the ‘Substance’ cassette and amend the artwork to reflect the correct titles. That seems the most logical approach, with the LP sounding the same as previously released but with titles corrected.

I like your track listing proposal, and it’s seems to cover all bases.

TBTHOG should be on CD1!

Hi guys, I really enjoy reading what you're expecting for the Substance box, but I think it's time to create a proper topic to find the right infos in the right place

Cheers

Jcp7 wrote: TBTHOG should be on CD1!

But it wasn't on 'Substance' in '87 and wasn't part of the concept when it was conceived.

Plus the 12" wouldn't fit on the CD.

Well, the PC&L set is up on Amazon.co.uk:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07YGM16Y7/ref=sr\_1\_1?dchild=1&keywords=power+corruption+and+lies+definitive&qid=1596803436&sr=8-1

£107.99

So not much cheaper than the New Order store (£112.99). As the 12"s aren't on there (and may never be), you'd need to get these from the NO Store (or elsewhere) at £9.99 a pop.

Therefore:

Amazon.co.uk (LP) & New Order Store (12"s) combined - £107.99, plus 4 x £9.99 = £147.95 New Order Store - £135.00

So, a saving of £12.95, or you can opt for the t-shirt combo costing £150, therefore getting the t-shirt effectively for £2.05 (£150-£147.95).

Of course, Amazon.co.uk are probably more reliable, especially based on my delay with the Closer bundle from NO. However, on a set this size, they're probably going to use a courier rather than Royal Mail (think there's a minimum value for this. The couriers that delivered Closer were on time apparently. So, maybe that makes my choice a little more clear.

Hmmm, thinking about it though, I think the NO Store charges immediately, whilst Amazon.co.uk only charges on dispatch.

Choices, choices, eh?

perspexorange wrote: Well, the PC&L set is up on Amazon.co.uk:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07YGM16Y7/ref=sr\_1\_1?dchild=1&keywords=power+corruption+and+lies+definitive&qid=1596803436&sr=8-1

£107.99

So not much cheaper than the New Order store (£112.99). As the 12"s aren't on there (and may never be), you'd need to get these from the NO Store (or elsewhere) at £9.99 a pop.

Therefore:

Amazon.co.uk (LP) & New Order Store (12"s) combined - £107.99, plus 4 x £9.99 = £147.95 New Order Store - £135.00

So, a saving of £12.95, or you can opt for the t-shirt combo costing £150, therefore getting the t-shirt effectively for £2.05 (£150-£147.95).

Of course, Amazon.co.uk are probably more reliable, especially based on my delay with the Closer bundle from NO. However, on a set this size, they're probably going to use a courier rather than Royal Mail (think there's a minimum value for this. The couriers that delivered Closer were on time apparently. So, maybe that makes my choice a little more clear.

Hmmm, thinking about it though, I think the NO Store charges immediately, whilst Amazon.co.uk only charges on dispatch.

Choices, choices, eh?

Worth remembering Amazon's pre-order price guarantee though. Saved me over £20 with 'Movement' (and came on day of release at no cost as I'm Amazon Prime:

• Movement (Definitive Edition) [VINYL]
• Price on order date: £109.99
• Price charged at shipping: £89.22
• Lowest price before release date: £89.22
• Quantity: 1
• Total Savings: £20.77

I've ordered with New Order store and Amazon. Good chance I'll cancel the NO store the week before release as long as the Amazon in stock date doesn't slip.

Yep. I do usually go with Amazon for this very reason. I ordered Movement through them, but couldn’t remember what price it was when I first ordered it (presumably the same as you as I ordered straight away and was charged £89).

Did the New Order Store charge you immediately?

perspexorange wrote: Yep. I do usually go with Amazon for this very reason. I ordered Movement through them, but couldn’t remember what price it was when I first ordered it (presumably the same as you as I ordered straight away and was charged £89).

Did the New Order Store charge you immediately?

It did for me using PayPal.

Ta. This is a bit annoying, as I always worry that it might be a bit of a ball-ache getting my money back.

Oh, and this has just landed:

perspexorange wrote: Ta. This is a bit annoying, as I always worry that it might be a bit of a ball-ache getting my money back.

Oh, and this has just landed:

Nice to see them all happy. Steve is, as always, a joy to listen to.

Bernard is having fun talking about his 'dalliances' with substances.

Man, I love these guys... :-)

Edited this to move my previous post onto the new page (the board is moving fast! Well, for us!)

^ Thanks for posting.Looks like that was recorded at the same time as the Movement ones (same clothes etc.)

Fotz wrote: ^ Thanks for posting.Looks like that was recorded at the same time as the Movement ones (same clothes etc.)

Yep I noticed that too.

I'm guessing they've recorded them for the first few LPs, at the very least.

Damn - these sort of videos just make the wait until 02/10/20 seem longer.

Question regarding the PCL extras CD. What's the distinction between "Writing Session Recordings" as opposed to "Demos" (which we had on Movement)?

perspexorange wrote:

As regards ‘Mesh’ and ‘Cries & Whispers’, I’d personally preserve the order as per the ‘Substance’ cassette and amend the artwork to reflect the correct titles. That seems the most logical approach, with the LP sounding the same as previously released but with titles corrected.

Seconded.

As for TBTHOG. Ok it shouldn't be on CD1, that's madness! But I think it should be on one of the extra CDs. For me the Technique era started with Fine Time. So Touched doesnt really fit it. By the time Technique arrived, we (the world and NO) had moved into the House and Balearic era. Touched sounds like 80s dance-rock, and although I love it, it started to sound very dated very quickly. I think Touched also ended up on some version of the Substance VHS tape (Discogs has gone glitchy RN, so I can't check).

I don't think you should have to buy a 12" re-release in order to get the track. It was released the same year as Substance and it's a better track than some of the proposed remixes and dubs; get it in there.

Debaser wrote: As for TBTHOG. Ok it shouldn't be on CD1, that's madness! But I think it should be on one of the extra CDs.

It is on the Substance VHS, but I don't feel it belongs with Substance. It should stay with the Salvation tracks, wherever they end up (Brotherhood? Technique?) The film soundtrack came out in May '87, so that would lean toward Brotherhood, but the single came out after Substance (Wikipedia says June '87, but that's wrong. True Faith is FAC 183, TBTHOG is FAC 193, and I didn't see it for sale until December '87), so that would lean toward Technique.

Isn't it lovely to have this much material to debate?

Actually, I've changed my mind. Substance should include a DVD of all the videos remastered, to mirror the VHS, so roll TBTHOG and Blue Monday 1988 in with it. There'll be tons of mixes and live material for Technique.

For the lowlife box set can we please have the 17 minute version of Elegia on vinyl please Mr Johnny James?

The only version on vinyl is a bootleg so would be nice to have on 12”. We already have it on cd with the retro 5th disc.

Seems to be 4 X 12” per box set And for lowlife I can only think of the perfect kiss, Subculture and Shellshock ( the other 86 releases I presume would be on brotherhood box set) so the Elegia one would make it a nice round 4 x 12”

For me the substance box set is the one I’m least interested in. I already have the limited factory employees one and the normal one. On top of that I’m buying all the remastered 12” again and I have all the originals so I’m not sure what a box set of substance would be for as it is essentially just the A and B sides of the singles.

What I forgot to say is how much I’m looking forward to the PC&L box set, it looks wonderful, a proper way to present one of the worlds greatest albums.

The Shadow wrote: so I’m not sure what a box set of substance would be for as it is essentially just the A and B sides of the singles.

The Substance CD needs to be remastered.

I just love the fact that there is an intention to release boxes for all LPs.

Just imagine how much great stuff will be unearthed.

Just imagine how cool all those beautiful boxes will look on your shelf.

Many thanks to all involved for the love and attention these sets are getting.

A project that matches the stature of the band.

I agree the box set thing is wonderful, it’s just substance Box set interests me the least. It’s a compilation so there can’t be any unreleased stuff or different versions as that will be covered on the other box sets. Don’t get mevwrong I lovecsubstance it’s an Incredibly important album in my liffe, just not sure what a box set will add. But I admit will look great with all the others!

The Shadow wrote: For the lowlife box set can we please have the 17 minute version of Elegia on vinyl please Mr Johnny James?

The only version on vinyl is a bootleg so would be nice to have on 12”. We already have it on cd with the retro 5th disc.

Seems to be 4 X 12” per box set And for lowlife I can only think of the perfect kiss, Subculture and Shellshock ( the other 86 releases I presume would be on brotherhood box set) so the Elegia one would make it a nice round 4 x 12"

This is a nice idea

I guess i'm in a minority but i've never been massively fussed about Substance.Wait, hear me out! No, what i mean is, when it was released it was all songs i'd been listening to for the previous few years anyway (with the exception of True Faith obviously) .At that point in time i would have preferred more new songs though we did get TF and 1963 and then TBTHOG.To me, Substance was more for people who were only vaguely aware of the band through Blue Monday and maybe one or two others.It was greatest hits for new fans to get into the band.And that was perfectly fine.All great songs of course but i'm always more hungry for new stuff.Says the man who will soon be spending out £135 on and old album PCL box set and 4 single re-releases haha!

But maybe a remastered Substance will get me listening to the album again instead of sticking on the old 12" singles.

Fotz wrote: To me, Substance was more for people who were only vaguely aware of the band through Blue Monday and maybe one or two others.It was greatest hits for new fans to get into the band.

That was me! I loved it and it was the first LP I heard by the band. It's a magnificent introduction to the band. I'm going to show a little bias here, but surely this is one of the greatest ever compilations by a band. Also, having 17 out of the 20 tracks being exclusive to the compilation, kind of makes it 'almost' a studio LP in itself. It really is excellent.

That being said, although I'm obviously interested in a Substance re-release, I'm far more excited by the studio LP boxes. For that reason, I'd prefer that it was released after the studio sets are done (especially considering that, if they do it after 'Brotherhood', it'll only further delay me getting my grubby little hands on a 'Technique' set). Alternatively, maybe if it isn't in the same style as the 'Definitive' editions, it could be released in tandem with the sets, as a 'stand alone' type release (i.e. not delaying the releases of the sets).

And me. I bought the double cassette from Spin Inn on Eccles precinct and played it in my car for what seemed like forever. My 1st Neworder purchase and a beloved item.

Fotz wrote: To me, Substance was more for people who were only vaguely aware of the band through Blue Monday and maybe one or two others.It was greatest hits for new fans to get into the band.

Not sure I fully agree with that (although maybe was the case for some people) - but let's not forget that a large chunk of New Order singles up that point weren't ever included on albums, so to me as a New Order fan who either couldn't find or couldn't afford all the singles it was a great and affordable way to finally fill the holes in my collection. At the time it didn't feel like a normal "greatest hits" - it felt like giving all these great standalone singles a home

The Shadow wrote: It’s a compilation so there can’t be any unreleased stuff or different versions as that will be covered on the other box sets.

Substance needs to be remastered. For North America, it was THE gateway album to New Order, and none of the remastered 12" singles they're releasing are seeing a digital physical release, i.e. on CD, not just available to stream and download.

And it makes absolutely no sense to NOT release it in chronological order with the other sets. Not after, not in tandem. It was the springboard to Technique being as successful as it was.

I still think the box sets are far too expensive and the video stuff is 'bundled' to justify the price. Since I'm not interested in the videos is there a possibility of an Aldi/Lidl version with audio only, no videos, t-shirts, books etc or am I missing the point that it's a collectors item.

Wire did great deluxe versions of their first 3 LPs in 7" sized hardback book covers for £30. £100+ is a joke. I'd want Bernard's PCL lab coat included at that price.

Substance: was this not done just for Wilson to play on his car's new CD player.

GotBlueEyes wrote:

Fotz wrote: To me, Substance was more for people who were only vaguely aware of the band through Blue Monday and maybe one or two others.It was greatest hits for new fans to get into the band.

Not sure I fully agree with that (although maybe was the case for some people) - but let's not forget that a large chunk of New Order singles up that point weren't ever included on albums, so to me as a New Order fan who either couldn't find or couldn't afford all the singles it was a great and affordable way to finally fill the holes in my collection. At the time it didn't feel like a normal "greatest hits" - it felt like giving all these great standalone singles a home

Yes i owned three NO studio albums by the time Substance came out. If you told me then that I was only vaguely aware of NO I would have pulled a teenage strop!

But 12"s were expensive. I could buy an album for just over the price of two 12"s, so albums were what I bought. I remember hearing about Substance a few weeks before its release and getting v excited. I already considered myself a NO fan and couldn't wait to fill the holes in my NO singles collection. I suspect Mr Fotzepolitic, you may be in the minority of people (who call themselves fans today) who had all the singles by 1987. You were just too hip for Substance!

50poundnote wrote: And it makes absolutely no sense to NOT release it in chronological order with the other sets. Not after, not in tandem. It was the springboard to Technique being as successful as it was.

Nobody's saying that that isn't important. But it isn't a studio LP. If this project is specifically looking at studio LPs, a case could be argued that it shouldn't be included as a 'Definitive Edition'.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with this (I obviously want as many of these sets, and the additional tracks that come with them, as we can get), but would the LP really necessitate the full-to-bursting 'Definitive' package?:

Anything that would normally be covered in the included book will probably have been covered in previous books. Live video material from 1987 could very easily have been covered in the Brotherhood era set. The 12"s have, themselves, already been released (albeit not in a digital physical release, granted) Etc.

I'm also not saying that it shouldn't be remastered and released (it certainly looks like that's in the plan anyway).

I'm just saying that it should be remastered and released, but it doesn't necessarily have to follow the 'Definitive Edition' release style and schedule. It could just be a 'bare bones' release (like the recent 'Singles' re-release), or it could be a more expanded version as we've speculated above. I'm obviously hoping for the latter (at the very least).

I'd love a 'Definitive Substance', but I'm keeping an open mind. It wouldn't upset me greatly if we didn't get one, as long as it gets some form of release.

Debaser wrote:

I suspect Mr Fotzepolitic, you may be in the minority of people (who call themselves fans today) who had all the singles by 1987. You were just too hip for Substance!

Oh.i did feel wary that i'd get a response like this.Nothing to do with being hip.Maybe it's to do with the year i was born which meant i was 15/16 in 1983/84.I'd first heard PCL in late 1983 and the next 3 or 4 months after i bought every NO & JD album and 12" i could find in my local record shops.So by spring 1984 i had every New Order and Joy Division 12" and album and absolutely loved hearing those songs for the first time and played them repeatedly over the following 2 or 3 year before Substance came out in August 1987.It's like i'm being made to feel guilty for buying up all the stuff in 1983/84 , 3 years before Substance came out.

In another life i would have loved to have never heard any of the songs before i bought Substance.In a way i feel i missed out . i mean how mindblowing it would have been to hear all the songs for the first time upon buying Substance.So in a way, all you lot that discovered the songs when you bought Substance had it the best way.

tapebias wrote: I still think the box sets are far too expensive and the video stuff is 'bundled' to justify the price. Since I'm not interested in the videos is there a possibility of an Aldi/Lidl version with audio only, no videos, t-shirts, books etc or am I missing the point that it's a collectors item. .

Movement CDs are available lossless on Qobuz. It will probably be the same for PCL.

Fotz wrote:

In another life i would have loved to have never heard any of the songs before i bought Substance.In a way i feel i missed out . i mean how mindblowing it would have been to hear all the songs for the first time upon buying Substance.So in a way, all you lot that discovered the songs when you bought Substance had it the best way.

It was indeed mind-blowing to me that I was able to get all those missing singles from my collection together in one place. I bought the double cassette box version as it had the most tracks. I thought I had it all. Listened to it so much that the b-sides cassette snapped. Took it back to WH Smith and they swapped it for the white linen box edition!

It blew my mind a second time when I realised years later via the guy who blogged all the singles, that quite a lot of the Substance tracks were edits or alternate versions, so there was still more to hear/collect

Fotz wrote: In another life i would have loved to have never heard any of the songs before i bought Substance.

I had seen Confusion once or twice on MTV in 1983. I'd heard The Perfect Kiss once in a record shop in 1985. I saw Bizarre Love Triangle on MTV, and went out and bought Brotherhood - but the cassette version, minus State of The Nation.

So the first time I played Substance was my first time hearing Ceremony, Everything's Gone Green, Temptation, Blue Monday, Thieves Like Us, Subculture, Shellshock, State Of The Nation, the remix of Bizarre Love Triangle, and True Faith. And I'd picked up the 2-cassette Factory import with the slipcase, so I had all the B-sides to explore. It's not exaggerating to say that album changed my life.

GotBlueEyes wrote: It blew my mind a second time when I realised years later via the guy who blogged all the singles, that quite a lot of the Substance tracks were edits or alternate versions

That was me. :)

It took 4 of us a couple of months to figure all of that out, cross-referencing our copies and sourcing from other people. Discogs wasn't very helpful at the time, since Factory's own records were haphazard. Nor was Wikipedia. It was a labor of love.

I bought the double tape of 'Substance' in the summer of 1988 in the Cowes Woolworths whilst on holiday in the Isle of Wight. I'd have been 13 at the time. I knew 'True Faith' and had bought the 'Touched By The Hand Of God' 7". 'Blue Monday 1988' was in the charts. Other than that every track on 'Substance' was new to me.

As others have said, it changed my life and got me exploring indie, punk, dance and so on from then on. I'd never heard anything like 'Shellshock' and was hooked to that straight away. Still think it's underrated and am always drawn to songs that sound unlike any other - of which 'Shellshock' is definitely one.

'Theives Like Us' will forever remind me of being in Dad's car with Mum and my brother, playing the tape on headphones as we drove over Isle of Wight hills on the way back from Cowes to Whitecliff Bay holiday camp.

Was bewildered and fascinated at the same time by all those crazy dub versions. The album has accompanied me through my life and often gets played when I'm on holiday, in keeping with when I first heard it.

There's definitely something about this mere "compilation" that transcends it way above standard greatest hits and, to me, it is an album in its own right. 12 perfect tracks (13 on tape 1) in a perfect order as an album, yet showing the band's development, progression and innovation in 6 short years.

I think i actually remember seeing NO do Blue Monday when it was first shown on TOTP and was the first time i'd ever heard of them but i thought it sounded awful.I first started reaally hearing Blue Monday though when it was played a lot on Radio 1 in Spring 1983, or at least the vocal section 4 minutes in the middle.Think it only used to get played in full by Tommy Vance when he did the Top 40 chart rundown on Sunday teatime around that time, he even played The Beach once , by mistake i'm sure and was probably because he had one of the mislabelled copies.Blue Monday first truly blew my mind when i heard it at a youth disco we would sometimes go to on Sunday nights.I eventually bought the 12" when it re-entered that UK Top 40 in autumn 83 and that was the start of it all for me i guess.

I'd heard Confusion 7" a lot on Radio 1 in late summer 1983 and quite liked it but that was as far as it went, i did though buy the 12" at some point later on.I think i much preferred the Kilkenny live version at that time though.

My first encounters with Ceremony, Everything's Gone Green and Temptation were actually the live versions from Kilkenny when the show was broadcast on Radio 1 in December 83.Ceremony live was fast , slightly chaotic but inspiring nonetheless on the Kilkenny broadcast which i'd recorded to cassette and played over and over again.EGG at Kilkenny sounded menacing and extraordinary and i was actually maybe a little disappointed at first when i heard the recorded version for the first time when i bought the Factus 8 1982 EP, i think i found the live version much more to my liking.My first encounter with Temptation, on the Kilkenny tape, was really positive.I found it an utter juggernaut of a song.Incredible.The version on Factus 8 though i found very very different to the live version i'd become familiar with but still great in a different way.When i first bought and heard Ceremony (the green sleeve version) i found it slightly slower than the Kilkenny live version i'd become familiar with but really took to it with it within a few plays.It was more restrained compared to the Kilkenny live version but the chiming guitars, thumping rhythm by Steve and great lyrics and vocal from Barney convinced me it was a class song.The record player i had at that time was an old gramophone late 1940s thing that had been in the family forever.Somehow Ceremony and Bernard's vocal style with the record playing on the old 1940s record player was kind of neat, like an old austere vibe.The sound on that old record player was actually pretty good.It broked down eventually but we still have it an attic.

Always associate Thieves Like with hearing it for the first time on Anne Nightingale's Radio 1 show on a Sunday night a week or two before it was released.That long intro was beautiful.The sleeve was a sight to behold when i eventually got my hands on it.

With The Perfect Kiss i think i'd heard the 7" just once maybe on Radio 1 before i bought the 12" when it was released the same day as Low-Life.At first I didn't know quite what to make of the sounds they used right at the start of it and only really got into it once Hooky's bass and then the drum machine kicked in.I think i remember asking a DJ in a pub one time around when TPK was first released if he had it and could he play it and he miserably responded with something like " oh, i've heard that new one of theirs - they've gone off, it's not a patch on Blue Monday, it's shit and no i don't have it" Could have lamped him!

Singles like Sub Culture, Shellshock, State Of The Nation, BLT (Pettibone Remix) and True Faith i first heard them when they were released or on the Radio just before .Oh, i first heard Sub Culture 12" on John Peel when he premiered it on his show on what i think was Steve Morris' birthday in Oct 85 as i recall Peel wishing Steve a happy birthday.Was a bit disappointed on first listen to Shellshock but it was the 7" , again on Radio 1.The 12" is much better but it's still not one of my fave NO tracks, sorry! First heard State Of The Nation on John Peel and thought it was really good.Didn't hear BLT (Pettibone) til i bought the 12" upon release.A workmate had it heard it on the radio before me and told me it had a brilliant chunky thumping beat and when i first heard it i thiought yes, it bloody has! Amazing beat..Think i heard True Faith 7" for the first time on Radio 1 (again!) and immediately thought, wow Barney has really nailed it with this one - what a very, very catch tune.Played True Faith and 1963 to death when i bought the 7" and 12", New Order really were on top of their game with that single.

Oh i forgot about Murder.Heard this mad song on Kid Jensen's evening Radio 1 show and afterwards he said that's the new single by New Order.What?? No way! Then i remembered that someone had written into NME a few months before, asking about a missing song called Murder from the Power, Corruption & Lies sessions and was it true it had samples of HAL from 2001: A Space Odyssey. It took a couple of listens when i bought the 12" ( the "nightime" version of the Thieves sleeve was fantastic by Saville) but i kind of liked it pretty quickly.It was certainly different.

Songs like Mesh and Procession i first heard when i bought the Factus 8 EP in early 1984.Mesh was good and i absolutely loved Procession right from the off with that synth intro and Bernard's lyrics about "nobody even tries to find out, what they once knew" and "your heart beats you/ late at night".I didn't hear Cries And Whispers til sometime later when i eventually bought the EGG 12".

God i've rambled and if you're still here, well done!

50poundnote wrote:

GotBlueEyes wrote: It blew my mind a second time when I realised years later via the guy who blogged all the singles, that quite a lot of the Substance tracks were edits or alternate versions

That was me. :)

It took 4 of us a couple of months to figure all of that out, cross-referencing our copies and sourcing from other people. Discogs wasn't very helpful at the time, since Factory's own records were haphazard. Nor was Wikipedia. It was a labor of love.

I can't thank you enough - a fantastic effort

perspexorange wrote:

I had no idea of this. Do you know how they differ?

I didn't know this either, so just had a listen and yes the version on the Collectors Edition 2xCD is different to the 12"/Substance version

On the Collectors Edition version, the snares are much crispier/more prominent (you can really hear this on the intro) and the ending is just the song fading out quickly, whereas the 12" version has that proper slowing-down drum break ending

While I was at it I checked out he other differences mentioned

Similarly, the PCL 2008 Collector's Edition had a version of 'Murder' with a slightly longer intro that the 12" or 'Substance' versions.

It has a couple of static clicks from the equipment and then an audible count-in - that's all I could hear different (beyond the brighter mastering that the whole collectors CD had)

'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' was again an alternate take which (I'm told) appeared on the US 'Shellshock' 12" b-side (possibly also in error back then)

Not sure if it's a different take, but definitely a different edit - there is about 20 seconds cut from the middle section on the Collectors edition version

GotBlueEyes wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

I had no idea of this. Do you know how they differ?

I didn't know this either, so just had a listen and yes the version on the Collectors Edition 2xCD is different to the 12"/Substance version

On the Collectors Edition version, the snares are much crispier/more prominent (you can really hear this on the intro) and the ending is just the song fading out quickly, whereas the 12" version has that proper slowing-down drum break ending

While I was at it I checked out he other differences mentioned

Similarly, the PCL 2008 Collector's Edition had a version of 'Murder' with a slightly longer intro that the 12" or 'Substance' versions.

It has a couple of static clicks from the equipment and then an audible count-in - that's all I could hear different (beyond the brighter mastering that the whole collectors CD had)

'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' was again an alternate take which (I'm told) appeared on the US 'Shellshock' 12" b-side (possibly also in error back then)

Not sure if it's a different take, but definitely a different edit - there is about 20 seconds cut from the middle section on the Collectors edition version

Good bit of research here. Many thanks.

Can't believe I've never noticed that 'count in' intro to 'Murder'. The only explanation I have is that I'm guessing that I never played the second disc of the Collectors CD. I didn't buy any of the Collectors versions at the time of release (mercifully, considering the numerous mistakes on initial copies). I only bought them a couple of years later and, by that point, I had the 'Recycle' project's versions. I therefore probably had no need to ever stick the second CDs into my player.

GotBlueEyes wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

Similarly, the PCL 2008 Collector's Edition had a version of 'Murder' with a slightly longer intro that the 12" or 'Substance' versions.

It has a couple of static clicks from the equipment and then an audible count-in - that's all I could hear different (beyond the brighter mastering that the whole collectors CD had)

Both the 12" and the second CD of Substance cut off the first drum beat of Murder. I like the restored version on PC&L with the little tape squelch and count-in.

Early copies of the Blue Monday 12" are missing the first two beats. That's the variation we included in Recycle.

The 'Recycle' version of 'Blue Monday' is the one I listen to most (same for all the other singles / b-sides).

It still sounds weird though and I don't think I'll ever get used to it! :-)

perspexorange wrote: The 'Recycle' version of 'Blue Monday' is the one I listen to most (same for all the other singles / b-sides).

It still sounds weird though and I don't think I'll ever get used to it! :-)

Does that mean it misses the first two quarter note beats (the ones on the beat) and starts with the 16th note "machine gun" 8 bass drum hits in rapid succession?

The one that is metronmically correct (i.e. the one that starts one beat 1 of the correct first bar) is the version on 'Substance'.

Mr Discography wrote: Does that mean it misses the first two quarter note beats (the ones on the beat) and starts with the 16th note "machine gun" 8 bass drum kits in rapid succession?

Yes. It was fixed on later pressings of Blue Monday and on Substance.

GotBlueEyes wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

I had no idea of this. Do you know how they differ?

I didn't know this either, so just had a listen and yes the version on the Collectors Edition 2xCD is different to the 12"/Substance version

On the Collectors Edition version, the snares are much crispier/more prominent (you can really hear this on the intro) and the ending is just the song fading out quickly, whereas the 12" version has that proper slowing-down drum break ending

While I was at it I checked out he other differences mentioned

Similarly, the PCL 2008 Collector's Edition had a version of 'Murder' with a slightly longer intro that the 12" or 'Substance' versions.

It has a couple of static clicks from the equipment and then an audible count-in - that's all I could hear different (beyond the brighter mastering that the whole collectors CD had)

'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' was again an alternate take which (I'm told) appeared on the US 'Shellshock' 12" b-side (possibly also in error back then)

Not sure if it's a different take, but definitely a different edit - there is about 20 seconds cut from the middle section on the Collectors edition version

The Beach was missing some edit sections that should have been inserted, that includes the outro bit.

Murder has a longer drum intro at the beginning that should have been trimmed.

Thieves Instrumental (on the 12" and Substance) should be a combination edit of two instrumentals on the masters, the extended drum roll in the middle gives away the edit. The US Shellshock featured one of the instrumentals unedited (probably by accident). I think the Collector's Edition (revised version) featured the other instrumental, also unedited.

Johnny James wrote:

Thieves Instrumental (on the 12" and Substance) should be a combination edit of two instrumentals on the masters, the extended drum roll in the middle gives away the edit. The US Shellshock featured one of the instrumentals unedited (probably by accident). I think the Collector's Edition (revised version) featured the other instrumental, also unedited.

Interesting, so the US 'Shellshock' version of 'Theives Like Us Instrumental' is still exclusive to that 12" release and not available on CD?

May have to track down a copy...

Thanks JJ. very informative.

So, just to get this straight in my head, in respect of 'Thieves Like Us' (Instrumental), there are the following variants:

12" version (6:58) (combination of two masters; used on 'Thieves Like Us' 12" and 'Substance' LP) 12" version variant 1 (6:38) (master A; used on 'Shellshock' US 12") 12" version variant 2 (6:39) (master A; used on 'Power, Corruption & Lies' Collectors' Edition) 7" edit (3:55) (edit of master A; used on 'Shellshock' 7")

Does this seem correct? Is there any easy was to differentiate between the two masters?

Johnny - presumably the versions of 'The Beach', 'Murder' and 'Thieves Like Us (Instrumental)' on the forthcoming 12"s are the correct ones (i.e. the ones used on the original 12"s and 'Substance')?

perspexorange wrote: Thanks JJ. very informative.

So, just to get this straight in my head, in respect of 'Thieves Like Us' (Instrumental), there are the following variants:

12" version (6:58) (combination of two masters; used on 'Thieves Like Us' 12" and 'Substance' LP) 12" version variant 1 (6:38) (master A; used on 'Shellshock' US 12") 12" version variant 2 (6:39) (master A; used on 'Power, Corruption & Lies' Collectors' Edition) 7" edit (3:55) (edit of master A; used on 'Shellshock' 7")

Does this seem correct? Is there any easy was to differentiate between the two masters?

Johnny - presumably the versions of 'The Beach', 'Murder' and 'Thieves Like Us (Instrumental)' on the forthcoming 12"s are the correct ones (i.e. the ones used on the original 12"s and 'Substance')?

Something like that, except I'm not sure which variant might have been used where. I'd have to examine the two and figure it out again.

Hopefully we've got it all correct on the new stuff, unless we've missed some minor thing.

Right, I think it's Take 2 on the US Shellshock, then on the Collector's Edition (fixed version) they used Take 1.

The UK/Benelux original should be a combined edit of the two.

Great! Thanks Johnny.

I've just taken a quick listen to both and you can definitely tell the difference between the two 6:38 versions. Listen to them both at the 4:40 point. There's some echo-y extra keyboard bits on the Collector's Edition (Take 1). There may be other bits, but I got lucky by happening to check that part first.

perspexorange wrote: Great! Thanks Johnny.

I've just taken a quick listen to both and you can definitely tell the difference between the two 6:38 versions. Listen to them both at the 4:40 point. There's some echo-y extra keyboard bits on the Collector's Edition (Take 1). There may be other bits, but I got lucky by happening to check that part first.

had a long discussion about these mixes two years ago with most of you guys here: http://forums.neworderonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=28879#post28879

http://forums.neworderonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=28880#post28880

http://forums.neworderonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=28884#post28884

http://forums.neworderonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=28887#post28887

basically echoing information repeated above.

later -1

True.

However, I don't think anyone had mentioned the two versions of the 6:38 instrumental before though, had they? If they did, I missed it.

Incredible to think that, despite my best efforts a few years back to track down pretty much every mix, there are still 'new' versions that are lurking on various compilations / non-UK releases.

Anyone able to point me in the direct (or a cat. No.) Of the exact US 12" that has this version of 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' on it? Looked on Discogs and it lists two, both with 'Thieves Like Us' - no indication of it being an instrumental, unless it's mislabeled on the release.

Mr Discography wrote: Anyone able to point me in the direct (or a cat. No.) Of the exact US 12" that has this version of 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' on it? Looked on Discogs and it lists two, both with 'Thieves Like Us' - no indication of it being an instrumental, unless it's mislabeled on the release.

I noticed this on Discogs earlier too - that with all the Shellshock 12"s with 'Thieves Like Us' on them, there's no indicator that they are the 'instrumental' version. Very confusing!

According to the Recycle Project, they sourced the instrumental version on the Shellshock 12" as follows:

"sourced from A&M Canada 45RPM 12" single SP-12174".

50poundnote should be able to clarify for you, as he was involved, I believe.

Mr Discography wrote: Anyone able to point me in the direct (or a cat. No.) Of the exact US 12" that has this version of 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' on it? Looked on Discogs and it lists two, both with 'Thieves Like Us' - no indication of it being an instrumental, unless it's mislabeled on the release.

Every US pressing should have the "instrumental '86" version.

Johnny, I assume the production master of 'Thieves Like Us' (from original 12" and 'Substance') has been used for the reissued 12" and digital 12", rather than the studio master that has that erroneous vocal drop in at 5:29 that appeared on 'The Best Of' and PCL Collector's Edition?

GotBlueEyes wrote:

50poundnote wrote:

GotBlueEyes wrote: It blew my mind a second time when I realised years later via the guy who blogged all the singles, that quite a lot of the Substance tracks were edits or alternate versions

That was me. :)

It took 4 of us a couple of months to figure all of that out, cross-referencing our copies and sourcing from other people. Discogs wasn't very helpful at the time, since Factory's own records were haphazard. Nor was Wikipedia. It was a labor of love.

I can't thank you enough - a fantastic effort

Seconded...actually am listening to it right now on my iTunes. Lovingly made a beautiful CD collection of these at the time - always on the lookout for a nice little perspex box to house them ;) Thanks so much!

Mr Discography wrote: Johnny, I assume the production master of 'Thieves Like Us' (from original 12" and 'Substance') has been used for the reissued 12" and digital 12", rather than the studio master that has that erroneous vocal drop in at 5:29 that appeared on 'The Best Of' and PCL Collector's Edition?

We've definitely sorted that out.

Johnny James wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

I had no idea of this. Do you know how they differ?

The Beach was missing some edit sections that should have been inserted, that includes the outro bit.

Are these sections that were edited into the original 12" version of 'The Beach' included in the 'Instrumental Outtake' version on the Definitive Edition, or was there another version of 'The Beach' mixed down (a bit like how the released 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' is a combined edit of two different mixdowns)?

Johnny James wrote:

Murder has a longer drum intro at the beginning that should have been trimmed.

Having heard this longer drum intro on the Collector's Edition CD2, it made me wonder why they clipped the start on the original 12" version, as the unedited version has drums that start on the beat - whereas the 12" starts on an offbeat and always felt like it kind of 'tripped over' into the beat a little when it started. Wonder why they removed those first few seconds originally?

Fotz wrote:

...i absolutely loved Procession right from the off with that synth intro and Bernard's lyrics about "nobody even tries to find out, what they once knew" .

Erm...oops.That lyric is actually from Mesh of course (was listening last night), not Procession.God i'm getting as bad as Bernard for forgetting things.Oh, not quite as Bernard yet maybe, he didn't even remember Procession existing.

Anyway, as you were.

So, where’s everyone preordered from?

I’m still undecided.

I want the box set (obviously) plus the four 12”s.

Amazon has the set for £107.99, but would need to get the four 12”s elsewhere at £9.99 each. So £148 thereabouts.

New Order Store, its £135 for the lot.

The obvious answer is to go to the NO Store.

However, Amazon are probably more reliable on delivery dates. I’m sure I’ll get it release day if I order through them. Not so confident about the NO Store.

Also, Amazon don’t charge until dispatch. The NO Store will charge straight away, so will be a bit of a ball-ache if I decide to cancel and order elsewhere (if prices drop etc.)

C’mon guys. Help me make a decision. 😁

I'm reall undecided yet, ugh! .Half think i'll buy the lot from NO store and take the chance that i may have to wait a bit longer for delivery and then half think i'll pay the extra £13 and buy the box from Amazon and then the 4 singles from NO store.

perspexorange wrote:

C’mon guys. Help me make a decision. 😁

Ah well, i've gone for the NO store option.Just ordered the £135 bundle.

If it arrives on the day then great, if i have to wait a couple of weeks well so be it.Worse happens at sea.

Thanks Fotz. That certainly helped and I've done the same.

Here's hoping that, based on the price, they use a better courier than Royal Mail. I noticed that there was a 'tracked' option at £9.00, which kind of negated the benefit of ordering through the store.

I think the only thing i wish they'd done with these definitive box sets is leave enough room to fit the accompanying re-released 12" singles in the box if you indeed buy the re-released singles.All releases associated with the album's era could be stored together in the box wit eveerything else.But then if you didn't buy the 12" re-releases i guess there'd be redundant space in the box so yeah, bit of a pipe dream.And also i guess it's not financially viable to make bigger boxes if not everyone buys the single re-releases.Just a thought.

Is it true then that the Blue Monday reissue will not be a replica die-cut sleeve?

It's the only 12" of this set that I don't have (having got rid of my old reissue copy when I thought I'd sourced a fair condition original die-cut on Discogs) - then they announced the Movement box and the 12" reissue program, and as they seemed to be embossing the sleeves to be as replica as possible (and were great quality pressings) I figured I'd hold out for the new BM that would come with the PCL set

Damnit

I know the picture on the New Order Store isn’t die-cut but this could just be a mock-up.

There are signs that it will be die-cut.

A few copies snuck out early in error a few months ago:

https://www.discogs.com/New-Order-Blue-Monday/release/14822524

As you can see, this is die-cut. Of course though, this could be changed before release, so don’t take my word on it.

Fingers crossed though.

perspexorange wrote: I know the picture on the New Order Store isn’t die-cut but this could just be a mock-up.

There are signs that it will be die-cut.

A few copies snuck out early in error a few months ago:

https://www.discogs.com/New-Order-Blue-Monday/release/14822524

As you can see, this is die-cut. Of course though, this could be changed before release, so don’t take my word on it.

Fingers crossed though.

Ah yes - forgot about that. The user who listed it did message me to explain that it was a genuine pressing, so maybe.

Interesting that Discogs have blocked it from sale though - which they only usually do for bootlegs. Can't see a bootlegger would go to the trouble of diecut sleeves and QR codes that link to neworder.com

Fotz wrote: I think the only thing i wish they'd done with these definitive box sets is leave enough room to fit the accompanying re-released 12" singles in the box if you indeed buy the re-released singles.All releases associated with the album's era could be stored together in the box wit eveerything else.But then if you didn't buy the 12" re-releases i guess there'd be redundant space in the box so yeah, bit of a pipe dream.And also i guess it's not financially viable to make bigger boxes if not everyone buys the single re-releases.Just a thought.

Perhaps a better option would be a separate, accompanying box for those that order the singles as a bundle.

Having done away with my vinyl and turntable years ago, I'm one of those that don't give a shit about vinyl reissues, even the LP's that come in the boxes.

GotBlueEyes wrote: Interesting that Discogs have blocked it from sale though

They would have blocked it because you can't sell items before their official release date.

I can't image they'll release Blue Monday without the die cut sleeve. That is THE Factory legend story (among many).

Fotz wrote: I think the only thing i wish they'd done with these definitive box sets is leave enough room to fit the accompanying re-released 12" singles in the box if you indeed buy the re-released singles.

...I just assumed they’d left room. I had intended to put my original singles in the boxes. Oh!

Yeah. Nope - that isn't something you can do. Or, at least, not with the 'Movement' set anyway.

I would imagine it will be the same for 'PC&L'.

perspexorange wrote: So, where’s everyone preordered from?

I’m still undecided.

C’mon guys. Help me make a decision. 😁

I just bought it from the Neworder Store at going rate - I figure that way, most of the proceeds reach the band and those who've curated the thing, making future boxes that bit more likely.

Rorschach wrote:

I just bought it from the Neworder Store at going rate - I figure that way, most of the proceeds reach the band and those who've curated the thing, making future boxes that bit more likely.

That's a good point. I'm not sure how these sort of things work, but it does seem possible.

Yeah, Technique is a more mature album (duh) but PCL is strangely more intriguing. The only thing we '''''need''''' from Technique is a clean version of that demo cassette. https://www.mdmarchive.co.uk/artefact.php?&aid=1864&bid=693 Still can't be arsed with this though. With Summer and Covid money's too tight to mention. Fortunately Melanie C will be paying for our wedding. Girl Power!

Rorschach wrote:

perspexorange wrote: most of the proceeds reach the band.

Oh good.

[TWITTER]1296714592605949953[/TWITTER] Just for Monkhouse.

Excellent. Thanks for the 'heads up', D!

Really enjoyed that.

Nice to hear both Steve and people who were at this legendary gig reminiscing about the night.

perspexorange wrote: this legendary gig

For those of us who don't know, what makes this gig legendary?

I'm amazed anyone can recall details from a gig they performed 37 years ago when they're performed thousands of gigs since.

50poundnote wrote:

perspexorange wrote: this legendary gig

For those of us who don't know, what makes this gig legendary?

I'm amazed anyone can recall details from a gig they performed 37 years ago when they're performed thousands of gigs since.

Well yeah, but I can remember details from the recording of the gig even though I haven’t listened to it for ages and have listened to hundreds of other New Order gig recordings over the years. I can recall the exact way Barney says “ Do you really want us to play Everything’s Gone Green? Alright we’ll play it” and the fact he lists Ian Curtis among the band members roll call towards the end of Ceremony. I’m not sure I’d describe the gig as legendary but there is something about that particular gig. Well for me anyway , even though I wasn’t even there! It’s just stuck in my memory

It's a pretty well known gig.

It was in a hotel, which kind of makes it pretty unique. Also, Kilkenny is a pretty small place (population of 25k, apparently) and certainly wasn't used to hosting a band of such stature.

The band were in a playful mood. Plenty of Barneyisms. Pretty intimate gig, with the audience almost on top of the band.

But it's probably reached 'legendary' status mainly because the BBC broadcast it a couple of times. So, pretty much every fan, certainly in the UK, had a bootleg of this gig back in the 80s.

So that's why everyone 'remembers' it 37 years later. They've all heard the tape! Probably multiple times.

Here's the write-up, if you're interested:

https://www.new-order.net/no/gigs/nogigs83.html#NO-830424

Just to give you an idea as to how 'intimate' the gig was.

Listening to that radio interview broadcast an hour or so ago, they interviewed a few of the punters who were there. They couldn't quite believe that New Order, were standing in front of them.

Missed the Steve interview so will see if there's a catch up option on KCLR's website.

Barney's "Straight from top of the pops!" towards the end of Ceremony was in reference to the gig flyer where the promoter had printed that same line .I thought i had the image of the flyer somewhere but cannot now find to post.

I also have a radio interview they did with a local Irish radio station (maybe that was the same station?) the night before the gig, about 20 mins.

Fotz wrote: the fact he lists Ian Curtis among the band members roll call towards the end of Ceremony.

[TWITTER]1260182217851994120[/TWITTER]

Fotz wrote: Missed the Steve interview so will see if there's a catch up option on KCLR's website.

I screen-grabbed it in case I couldn't download it to keep. If you can't get to listen to later, just drop me a PM / email and I'll send it to you. Pretty good. The whole thing lasted for about an hour.

Fotz wrote: I also have a radio interview they did with a local Irish radio station (maybe that was the same station?) the night before the gig, about 20 mins.

Yep, me too. They make reference to it in the above programme.

Fotz wrote: Barney's "Straight from top of the pops!" towards the end of Ceremony was in reference to the gig flyer where the promoter had printed that same line .I thought i had the image of the flyer somewhere but cannot now find to post.

[TWITTER]1260182217851994120[/TWITTER]

You can kind of see it in the Twitter post above, but not in any detail. Looks like I have it in my archives though:

In A Lonely Place was played at Kilkenny but omitted from the Radio 1 broadcast and seemingly the upcoming DVD in the box set.Never knew why.An audience recording is slotted into some bootlegs.

In the radio programme today, Steve mentioned that the BBC didn't record it. He said that the band recorded it themselves.

A short while after, the BBC approached the band, wanting to record them live in concert. Steve said that they responded to say that they already had a tape of the Kilkenny show, so let them have a copy of that recording.

He also separately mentioned that, in 1981, he bought portable video equipment, with the intention to 'rope in' friends or colleagues of the band to film some of their gigs. This is what happened in the case of Kilkenny. Someone standing to the side of the stage with a single camera.

Putting these two facts together, I'm wondering whether the band either lent the BBC the video tape or took an audio recording from that video themselves. If, for whatever reason, In A Lonely Place wasn't filmed, this would explain why it's missing from both the video and the audio.

But, thinking about it, would the audio from a handheld video camera be good enough for the BBC to use?

Ah, so 'Writing Sessions' on the upcoming box set are rough early instrumental versions before lyrics were written.

Good interview that and the interviewer knows his New Order stuff which is always a relief.

perspexorange wrote: Putting these two facts together, I'm wondering whether the band either lent the BBC the video tape or took an audio recording from that video themselves. If, for whatever reason, In A Lonely Place wasn't filmed, this would explain why it's missing from both the video and the audio.

Tape flip.

perspexorange wrote: But, thinking about it, would the audio from a handheld video camera be good enough for the BBC to use?

No.

It’s certainly possible that it might be a ‘tape flip’. Track 7, so seems possible.

Just seems strange that both the video and the audio would be missing the same track.

I’m not sure what equipment was used to video the gig, but would there be a tape flip on a video recording? I always think of this sort of equipment as using standard VHS tapes (the one I rented in the late 80s used standard VHS tapes). I will admit my knowledge on this sort of technology is severely lacking though.

Maybe Johnny James will be able to tell us the reason for In A Lonely Place not being on either the forthcoming DVD or the BBC radio broadcast.

The audio from a 1983 camcorder would not be good enough to use. Is IALP truly missing from the videotape, or simply not broadcast quality (i.e. no soundboard recording to comp it with)?

It was only many years after the Radio 1 broadcast that i found out that IALP had been played but omitted.One reason i wondered was that maybe the song was deemed too dark and depressing for Radio and also it would have taken the programme over the 1 hour time slot.The radio broadcast without IALP makes it a neat 1 hour which i assume Radio 1 wanted to fit in their schedule, or 56 minutes or so allowing 4 minutes for the news at the start of that hour.But that doesn't explain the omission from the DVD.The other thing is from what i've read on bootleg notes is that it wasn't the best of performances of the song , maybe played too fast so the band decided to cut it out.I did listen to an audience recording of it once but can't recall if it was a bad one or not.And yeah there's also the possibility of tape flip.Maybe a combination of all of the above.

perspexorange wrote: It’s certainly possible that it might be a ‘tape flip’. Track 7, so seems possible.

Just seems strange that both the video and the audio would be missing the same track.

I’m not sure what equipment was used to video the gig, but would there be a tape flip on a video recording? I always think of this sort of equipment as using standard VHS tapes (the one I rented in the late 80s used standard VHS tapes). I will admit my knowledge on this sort of technology is severely lacking though.

Maybe Johnny James will be able to tell us the reason for In A Lonely Place not being on either the forthcoming DVD or the BBC radio broadcast.

It wasn't played. There's no break in the video between Confusion and Age Of Consent, no sign whatsoever that another track was there.

IALP wasn't played at Kilkenny? OK, now i'm confused.

Thanks Johnny.

It must be then that someone inserted IALP into the bootleg, thinking that it was from the gig. When it wasn’t.

Odd.

Actually, this makes a certain amount of sense now.

I have several different copies of the Soundboard, all taken from the radio broadcast. Only one of these has IALP inserted into it. Apart from that one track, I’ve never heard of an ‘audience’ version of the gig, i.e. I don’t have a complete ‘audience’ bootleg of the whole gig, from which IALP was taken from.

It therefore seems possible that this track was actually taken from an ‘audience’ recording of a different gig.

perspexorange wrote: Thanks Johnny.

It must be then that someone inserted IALP into the bootleg, thinking that it was from the gig. When it wasn’t.

Odd.

Yep, i'm also now thinking that's what's happened.Does seem to make sense now.Looking at the setlist, if IALP had been in there it seems an odd place and a drastic change of mood to play it somewhere between the gig's euphoric climax of Confusion, AOC,BM, EGG and Ceremony.So all those setlists over the years that have listed IALP are wrong.Well well well.

Fotz wrote:

perspexorange wrote: Thanks Johnny.

It must be then that someone inserted IALP into the bootleg, thinking that it was from the gig. When it wasn’t.

Odd.

Yep, i'm also now thinking that's what's happened.Does seem to make sense now.Looking at the setlist, if IALP had been in there it seems an odd place and a drastic change of mood to play it somewhere between the gig's euphoric climax of Confusion, AOC,BM, EGG and Ceremony.So all those setlists over the years that have listed IALP are wrong.Well well well.

I'm sure it wouldn't have stopped them playing it at any point in the gig back then. However, on this occasion they didn't. Another reference is Dec's Heaven to Heaven book that also makes no mention of it in the set. He probably also taped the gig.

Johnny James wrote: Another reference is Dec's Heaven to Heaven book that also makes no mention of it in the set. He probably also taped the gig.

I didn't think to check this.

That book is superb! One of my favourite New Order items I own.

Yeah - it seems likely that Dec taped this.

Johnny James wrote: I'm sure it wouldn't have stopped them playing it at any point in the gig back then. However, on this occasion they didn't. Another reference is Dec's Heaven to Heaven book that also makes no mention of it in the set. He probably also taped the gig.

A friend with an extensive catalog of recordings was able to track it down to a cassette from 2001 where someone erroneously stuck it on the end of side one of a tape to fill up blank space. He's now trying to identify what gig it actually came from.

Ah, makes sense. So it's 'filler' added to the end of one side of the tape. Mystery (partially) solved.

The x4 re-released singles are actually now available on Amazon but more expensive than NO store at £11.99 each.

perspexorange wrote: Ah, makes sense. So it's 'filler' added to the end of one side of the tape. Mystery (partially) solved.

Someone needs to update the gig's listing on Setlist.fm now then!

Fotz wrote: The x4 re-released singles are actually now available on Amazon but more expensive than NO store at £11.99 each.

Looks like we made the right choice in buying from the NO Store then, Fotz.

A saving of over £20 (£155.95 on Amazon, compared to £135 on the Store, for the complete bundle).

50poundnote wrote:

Johnny James wrote: I'm sure it wouldn't have stopped them playing it at any point in the gig back then. However, on this occasion they didn't. Another reference is Dec's Heaven to Heaven book that also makes no mention of it in the set. He probably also taped the gig.

A friend with an extensive catalog of recordings was able to track it down to a cassette from 2001 where someone erroneously stuck it on the end of side one of a tape to fill up blank space. He's now trying to identify what gig it actually came from.

Not just any friend, mind you. Haven't posted here in years....

Thanks all for spotting this. This was literally my fault, actually...so nigh-on 20 years on, I'm correcting it.

Here's a write-up, which includes this audience version of IALP, obviously from Bournemouth 1983/12-02, as spotted by a cohort! https://www.tapefiller.org/2020/08/fllr-016-new-order-tapes-part-10.html

I can fix setlist.fm, too. Done. https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/new-order/1983/rose-hill-hotel-kilkenny-ireland-63d7c62f.html

Who's going to fix the NOOL "concert browser"? 😈 http://www.neworderonline.com/live/Concert.aspx?ConcertID=220

---Sam

Nice to see you here, Sam.

Thanks for getting to the bottom of this.

Mr Discography wrote:

perspexorange wrote: Ah, makes sense. So it's 'filler' added to the end of one side of the tape. Mystery (partially) solved.

Someone needs to update the gig's listing on Setlist.fm now then!

I've corrected the listing and cited my own article that discusses what went awry in detail.

50poundnote wrote:

Johnny James wrote: I'm sure it wouldn't have stopped them playing it at any point in the gig back then. However, on this occasion they didn't. Another reference is Dec's Heaven to Heaven book that also makes no mention of it in the set. He probably also taped the gig.

A friend with an extensive catalog of recordings was able to track it down to a cassette from 2001 where someone erroneously stuck it on the end of side one of a tape to fill up blank space. He's now trying to identify what gig it actually came from.

To clarify...

The error was introduced in late November 2001 when it was assumed to be a genuine addition to the gigography.

The cassette itself is much older than 2001. The particular Maxell UDS-II insert/cassette design dates from 1986 or so.

As for trying to identify where this is from...haven't managed that yet. Suspect it's from another '83 show.

UPDATE: looks like a cohort has identified it as being from Bournemouth 1983-12-02!