Mapping the (hopefully!) forthcoming Definitive Editions... Part 1 - PC&L

I finally bought this (alcohol was involved). The box is nice. The book looks lovely. I've listened to side A of the record and it sounds different to my recollection of the original pressing — which I listen to regularly. I think it's an improvement, especially "We all Stand", which is my least favourite track, I heard stuff I hadn't noticed before. Also on 586 (the other track I don't care for that much). Haven't listened closely to side B yet, but I didn't notice any slow down for YSF (I was in the room next door at the time though).

The DVDs… well, they're packed tightly aren't they? I noticed some bending of the cardboard for DVD 1 when I first got it out of the box, from whoever put the insert in I guess. And I can see why: as I'm writing this I still haven't managed to prise the damn disc out!

Edit: hang on did someone say something about a download code? Where is that hidden?

Jonathan wrote: I finally The DVDs… well, they're packed tightly aren't they? I noticed some bending of the cardboard for DVD 1 when I first got it out of the box, from whoever put the insert in I guess. And I can see why: as I'm writing this I still haven't managed to prise the damn disc out!

Edit: hang on did someone say something about a download code? Where is that hidden?

Instead of trying to pull the inner case of the DVD out , turn it upside down and shake it out.

There were no download codes .

Boxset down to £78 on Amazon UK for anyone who hasn't got it yet - lowest price I've seen it.

NotAMod wrote: I can't recall if this was covered back in the day when the PC&L box first came out (likely not, as it's audio geekery).

I've noticed the following tracks on the first DVD are highly likely mastered in mono as opposed to stereo, specifically:

Blue Monday (BBC Top Of The Pops, London 1983) 3:57 Confusion (Countdown 1983) 5:01 Age Of Consent (Switch 1983) 4:35 Blue Monday (Switch 1983) 5:23 Thieves Like Us (BBC Top Of The Pops 1984) 3:25 Your Silent Face (The Hacienda, Manchester) 6:47 5 8 6 (The Hacienda, Manchester) 6:25

• possibly the rest of the 'Extras' stuff...?

Can anyone 'in the know' (JJ?) possibly confirm this?

Cheers.

Just checked and yes, they were supplied mono, Minneapolis too. The rest are stereo.

It looks like the official 'Countdown' YouTube channel have finally posted the band's appearance on the show performing 'Confusion'.

This is exactly the same version as the one that appears on the 'PC&L' boxset. I was hoping they'd post the 'second take' of this instead (which I think is the version that was broadcast on the radio, not TV).

A few months back they posted the elusive 'third take' of 'Blue Monday', so they do have form.

Johnny James - is the second take of 'Confusion' in the archives? If so, is it any good? Presumably you picked the best version for the box set.

The other take is very similar, I think there were aspects of it I preferred (marginally better camerawork I think), but overall we used the one that was better.

Thanks JJ!

Would be great to see it. Maybe that ‘Countdown’ channel might post it at some point.

Interesting observation on the "Definitive" remastering of PC&L I read on the web. Can't remember the URL, but I just verified it by comparing versions. The '586' on the Definitive Edition is a different version. Listen at 4:53, when the "heard you" line repeats - on the original and Collectors Editions versions, you can clearly here the click of Barney about to sing "calling", making it sound like he's singing "clurred you" (which I always liked and thought was rather playful). On the Definitive Edition, it's gone, and you just hear "heard you, heard you". Very odd.

I actually (and rather helpfully) prefer the Collectors Edition remaster to the Definitive, which I feel sounds slightly muddier and misses some of the lovely top end on tracks like 'Your Silent Face', but I'd love to know the reason this different '586' appears on the Definitive Edition - an alternate take that's been remastered in error, a retroactive "correction"to the original, or another technical reason to do with those old digital tapes (U-matics?) used at the time. Quite disappointed to find out the Definitive Edition isn't quite as definitive as I thought it was.

Any insider info Johnny James?

Mr Discography wrote: Interesting observation on the "Definitive" remastering of PC&L I read on the web. Can't remember the URL, but I just verified it by comparing versions. The '586' on the Definitive Edition is a different version. Listen at 4:53, when the "heard you" line repeats - on the original and Collectors Editions versions, you can clearly here the click of Barney about to sing "calling", making it sound like he's singing "clurred you" (which I always liked and thought was rather playful). On the Definitive Edition, it's gone, and you just hear "heard you, heard you". Very odd.

I actually (and rather helpfully) prefer the Collectors Edition remaster to the Definitive, which I feel sounds slightly muddier and misses some of the lovely top end on tracks like 'Your Silent Face', but I'd love to know the reason this different '586' appears on the Definitive Edition - an alternate take that's been remastered in error, a retroactive "correction"to the original, or another technical reason to do with those old digital tapes (U-matics?) used at the time. Quite disappointed to find out the Definitive Edition isn't quite as definitive as I thought it was.

Any insider info Johnny James?

It is a new edit of the album. The album was originally recorded and mixed in the studio onto both analogue and digital formats (U-Matics). The final edits of the album were done and mastered digitally onto U-Matics (16bit 44.1kHz).

We wanted to use the analogue studio tapes this time, transferred at high resolution, but it would mean that we'd need to recreate all the sequencing and editing as the album hadn't been compiled from the analogue sources previously. We got Michael Johnson to put it all together as he had done originally.

Regarding 586, he produced two versions, one with the original click on that edit, and one without. I'm fairly sure we used the click one on the vinyl and the smoother one on the CD/digital.

The point of all this was to create (for the first time) a new master at high resolution as all previous versions were taken from either U-Matics or tapes derived from U-Matics.

Johnny James wrote:

It is a new edit of the album. The album was originally recorded and mixed in the studio onto both analogue and digital formats (U-Matics). The final edits of the album were done and mastered digitally onto U-Matics (16bit 44.1kHz).

We wanted to use the analogue studio tapes this time, transferred at high resolution, but it would mean that we'd need to recreate all the sequencing and editing as the album hadn't been compiled from the analogue sources previously. We got Michael Johnson to put it all together as he had done originally.

Regarding 586, he produced two versions, one with the original click on that edit, and one without. I'm fairly sure we used the click one on the vinyl and the smoother one on the CD/digital.

The point of all this was to create (for the first time) a new master at high resolution as all previous versions were taken from either U-Matics or tapes derived from U-Matics.

Interesting. Thanks for the info Johnny.

What led to the decision to have the smoother edit on the CD (and, presumably digital)? Is it the way the band originally wanted it to sound - but couldn't achieve - back in 1983?

Obviously, the "danger, danger" part of '586' was also a recreated edit, and I always thought I heard an edit in 'Your Silent Face' just where the vocals come in. Which parts of other tracks needed the original edits reproduced for the Definitive Edition?

Mr Discography wrote:

What led to the decision to have the smoother edit on the CD (and, presumably digital)? Is it the way the band originally wanted it to sound - but couldn't achieve - back in 1983?

Obviously, the "danger, danger" part of '586' was also a recreated edit, and I always thought I heard an edit in 'Your Silent Face' just where the vocals come in. Which parts of other tracks needed the original edits reproduced for the Definitive Edition?

It was mostly 586 that needed edits, those two repeated sections, plus the intro section needed grafting on (it was recorded as a separate piece).

The Beach was a composite edit too (part of the same set of recordings), there were some extra edit sections that needed inserting. Murder needed a trim at the start. I don't think there was much else from that Britannia Row set that needed editing.

I think when you revisit old edits it's tempting to try and improve things. The original would have been done with two U-Matics, which was part of the attraction of going digital back then. Now they're regarded as a bit rubbish, quite a few of the tapes don't even play anymore.

Johnny James wrote: The original would have been done with two U-Matics, which was part of the attraction of going digital back then. Now they're regarded as a bit rubbish, quite a few of the tapes don't even play anymore.

Johnny, what other New Order releases used U-Matics? You mention it being used for the 'Substance' masters, so was it also used for 'Brotherhood' and related tracks?

Mr Discography wrote:

Johnny James wrote: The original would have been done with two U-Matics, which was part of the attraction of going digital back then. Now they're regarded as a bit rubbish, quite a few of the tapes don't even play anymore.

Johnny, what other New Order releases used U-Matics? You mention it being used for the 'Substance' masters, so was it also used for 'Brotherhood' and related tracks?

There are a lot of tapes for Brotherhood, so I'm not sure there was a digital stage. There will have been for the CDs. Vinyl was usually cut from EQ'd analogue production master reels, though what you can't be sure of is were they put through a digital stage first.

Johnny James wrote:

Mr Discography wrote:

Johnny James wrote: The original would have been done with two U-Matics, which was part of the attraction of going digital back then. Now they're regarded as a bit rubbish, quite a few of the tapes don't even play anymore.

Johnny, what other New Order releases used U-Matics? You mention it being used for the 'Substance' masters, so was it also used for 'Brotherhood' and related tracks?

There are a lot of tapes for Brotherhood, so I'm not sure there was a digital stage. There will have been for the CDs. Vinyl was usually cut from EQ'd analogue production master reels, though what you can't be sure of is were they put through a digital stage first.

So it sounds like there were no other U-Matic edits/comps of different takes of dub mixes of tracks like there were with 'The Beach' and 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' then?

Mr Discography wrote:

Johnny James wrote:

Mr Discography wrote:

Johnny James wrote: The original would have been done with two U-Matics, which was part of the attraction of going digital back then. Now they're regarded as a bit rubbish, quite a few of the tapes don't even play anymore.

Johnny, what other New Order releases used U-Matics? You mention it being used for the 'Substance' masters, so was it also used for 'Brotherhood' and related tracks?

There are a lot of tapes for Brotherhood, so I'm not sure there was a digital stage. There will have been for the CDs. Vinyl was usually cut from EQ'd analogue production master reels, though what you can't be sure of is were they put through a digital stage first.

So it sounds like there were no other U-Matic edits/comps of different takes of dub mixes of tracks like there were with 'The Beach' and 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' then?

There are studio analogue reels of such things. Instrumentals etc.

Johnny James wrote:

I think when you revisit old edits it's tempting to try and improve things. The original would have been done with two U-Matics, which was part of the attraction of going digital back then. Now they're regarded as a bit rubbish, quite a few of the tapes don't even play anymore.

I was comparing the original ('Substance') and 2020 digital master versions of 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' last night, I think I hear another re-created edit in the remaster: the repeating sections from 1:49-1:53 where take 1 (version on 'The Collectors Edition' of PC&L) edits into take 2 (the version on the US 'Shellshock' 12"). On the original version, this section is looped a touch clumsily, sounding out of time once or twice; on the remaster it's perfectly edited to repeat every two beats. Guessing how the band woud've wanted it at the time!

Assume this was a similar re-edit using original master tapes, due to lower sound quality (or dodgy performance) of the U-Matic tape?

Mr Discography wrote:

Johnny James wrote:

I think when you revisit old edits it's tempting to try and improve things. The original would have been done with two U-Matics, which was part of the attraction of going digital back then. Now they're regarded as a bit rubbish, quite a few of the tapes don't even play anymore.

I was comparing the original ('Substance') and 2020 digital master of 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' last night, I think I hear another re-created edit in the remaster: the repeating sections from 1:49-1:53 where take 1 (version on 'The Collectors Edition' of PC&L) edits into take 2 (the version on the US 'Shellshock' 12"). On the original version, this section is looped a touch clumsily, sounding out of time once or twice; on the remaster it's perfectly edited to repeat every two beats. Guessing how the band woud've wanted it at the time!

Assume this was a similar re-edit using original master tapes, due to lower sound quality (or dodgy performance) of the U-Matic tape?

Yes, a new edit from higher quality sources, we also got it done by Michael Johnson this time too.

Johnny James wrote:

Mr Discography wrote:

Johnny James wrote:

I think when you revisit old edits it's tempting to try and improve things. The original would have been done with two U-Matics, which was part of the attraction of going digital back then. Now they're regarded as a bit rubbish, quite a few of the tapes don't even play anymore.

I was comparing the original ('Substance') and 2020 digital master of 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' last night, I think I hear another re-created edit in the remaster: the repeating sections from 1:49-1:53 where take 1 (version on 'The Collectors Edition' of PC&L) edits into take 2 (the version on the US 'Shellshock' 12"). On the original version, this section is looped a touch clumsily, sounding out of time once or twice; on the remaster it's perfectly edited to repeat every two beats. Guessing how the band woud've wanted it at the time!

Assume this was a similar re-edit using original master tapes, due to lower sound quality (or dodgy performance) of the U-Matic tape?

Yes, a new edit from higher quality sources, we also got it done by Michael Johnson this time too.

Interesting, and a justifiable re-edit in my opinion, in order to get the better quality audio.

If the remastered 7" singles (with A and B sides) ever see the light of day for digital and/or physical reissue, hopefully that clunky glitch in 'Shellshock' after the first "Hold on" can be cleaned up in a similar way - as someone has done here on YouTube: https://youtu.be/yAhwF0fkmx8?si=NAq317NETKbgYGXE.

Although I'm guessing that was some sort of physical tape edit to create the original 7" version, so there will already be a higher quality master tape in existence?

If you guys were ever to revisit the old 7" edits of the B-sides, would that throw up a whole new challenge with U-Matic edits needing to be reproduced?