Mapping the (hopefully!) forthcoming Definitive Editions... Part 1 - PC&L — Forum Archive

5 Oct 2020, 16:41

GotBlueEyes wrote: The authoring on the DVDs seems weird - trying to rip the videos for my media library and Handbrake doesn't seem to recognise any of the extras on DVD1 (just shows two titles - the Hacienda and the Kilkenny gigs) and DVD2 doesn't show the Video586 chapter

Seems like MakeMKV works better and picks them up, but it's unusual for Handbrake not to work first time

I use DVD Audio Extractor, which hasn't steered me wrong archiving DVD audio so far. In DAE, the layout of the discs match broadly what is on the box with the exception of DVD2, where the Hac '83 gig is "first" Title followed by the Play At Home chapter. Video/Primitive 586 is a 9 and a half minute chapter at the very end of the disc.

Can't praise DVD1 highly enough as all the audio is well mastered, not too loud or quiet. Just like the Movement DVD. I did notice the longer Hac '83 gig on DVD2 has audio where one channel is louder than the other and it's a bit quieter. Perhaps that was all they could do with the source material so that's not a criticism. There are more than enough goodies on the first DVD to make up for it, not to mention Play At Home itself.

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6 Oct 2020, 11:40 · edited 6 Oct 2020, 12:49

negative1 wrote:

Blue Monday (Instrumental Outtake) 7:19 i overlaid this over 'the beach', and they matched each other pretty well. so this might have been an earlier take (or exactly the same), i'm sure there are some mixing differences. the vocoder parts sound louder to me. other than that they are comparible. there might be a slight BPM difference.

I was surprised that something titled 'Blue Monday (Instrumental Outtake)' was so identical to 'The Beach'. There are subtle differences, but I'm surprised it wasn't simply titled 'The Beach (Alternate Take)' in the box's tracklist.

So we now know of three versions of 'The Beach':

Original 12" B-side - which I think Johnny James said was two versions edited together in some way or another
PCL 'Collector's Edition' version - which is one of the takes used for the 12" B-side without any of the edits
PCL 'Definitive Edition' version - which is another alternate take

I wonder if we have something here very similar to the 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental', where two takes were combined to create the final version, but subsequently those two different takes were eventually released (in the case of 'Thieves' possibly in error). Could it be that the original 12" version of 'The Beach' is actually an edited combination of 2 and 3 in the list above?

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6 Oct 2020, 12:47

Mr Discography wrote:

negative1 wrote:

Blue Monday (Instrumental Outtake) 7:19 i overlaid this over 'the beach', and they matched each other pretty well. so this might have been an earlier take (or exactly the same), i'm sure there are some mixing differences. the vocoder parts sound louder to me. other than that they are comparible. there might be a slight BPM difference.

I was surprised that something titled 'Blue Monday (Instrumental Outtake)' was so identical to 'The Beach'. There are subtle distances, but I'm surprised it wasn't simply titled 'The Beach (Alternate Take)' in the box's tracklist. So we now know of three versions of 'The Beach':

Original 12" B-side - which I think Johnny James said was two versions edited together in some way or another)

PCL 'Collector's Edition' version - which is one of the takes used for the 12" B-side without any of the edits

PCL 'Definitive Edition' version - which is another alternate take

I wonder if we have something here very similar to the 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental', where two takes were combined to create the final version, but subsequently those two different takes were eventually released (in the case of 'Thieves' possibly in error). Could it be that the original 12" version of 'The BEach' is actually an edited combination of 2 and 3 in the list above?

No, the Collector's Edition is mostly the right take, but there are a couple of edit sections that should have been inserted into it. One is early on when there's some doubling up effect on the drums, the other is right at the end (I'm not exactly sure if that was edited onto it or not on the 'corrected' disc 2).

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6 Oct 2020, 20:53

The definitive power corruption and lies is on Spotify now.

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7 Oct 2020, 03:49

Mr Discography wrote:

negative1 wrote:

Blue Monday (Instrumental Outtake) 7:19 i overlaid this over 'the beach', and they matched each other pretty well. so this might have been an earlier take (or exactly the same), i'm sure there are some mixing differences. the vocoder parts sound louder to me. other than that they are comparible. there might be a slight BPM difference.

I was surprised that something titled 'Blue Monday (Instrumental Outtake)' was so identical to 'The Beach'. There are subtle differences, but I'm surprised it wasn't simply titled 'The Beach (Alternate Take)' in the box's tracklist.

So we now know of three versions of 'The Beach':

Original 12" B-side - which I think Johnny James said was two versions edited together in some way or another

PCL 'Collector's Edition' version - which is one of the takes used for the 12" B-side without any of the edits

PCL 'Definitive Edition' version - which is another alternate take

I wonder if we have something here very similar to the 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental', where two takes were combined to create the final version, but subsequently those two different takes were eventually released (in the case of 'Thieves' possibly in error). Could it be that the original 12" version of 'The Beach' is actually an edited combination of 2 and 3 in the list above?

...and don't forget Beach Buggy and Blue Monday 1988 Dub Version.

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7 Oct 2020, 18:46

Biggest surprise for me? For years I imagined the bloke that came out with the announcement “There’s someone owns a scooter SMG643Y...” was a balding middle aged man in a suit.....not some punk rocker with an enormous Mohican!!

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7 Oct 2020, 19:36 · edited 7 Oct 2020, 19:41

Dinoc wrote: Biggest surprise for me? For years I imagined the bloke that came out with the announcement “There’s someone owns a scooter SMG643Y...” was a balding middle aged man in a suit.....not some punk rocker with an enormous Mohican!!

Yeah, was a little surprised when a guy with a Mohican popped up.

Was a bit surprised too by the audience at the Kilkenny gig.I'd always imagined a crowd made up of the Joy Division green raincoat brigade and assorted gloomy 80s types just standing and watching .But the Kilkenny audience looked well up for it and going crazy.

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7 Oct 2020, 20:04 · edited 7 Oct 2020, 20:04

Fotz wrote: Was a bit surprised too by the audience at the Kilkenny gig.I'd always imagined a crowd made up of the Joy Division green raincoat brigade and assorted gloomy 80s types just standing and watching .But the Kilkenny audience looked well up for it and going crazy.

That Kilkenny gig is a treasure. Steve hot-swapping disks on the Emulator, Barney in a playful mood, and the audience going nuts.

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7 Oct 2020, 20:41 · edited 7 Oct 2020, 20:45

50poundnote wrote:

Fotz wrote: Was a bit surprised too by the audience at the Kilkenny gig.I'd always imagined a crowd made up of the Joy Division green raincoat brigade and assorted gloomy 80s types just standing and watching .But the Kilkenny audience looked well up for it and going crazy.

That Kilkenny gig is a treasure. Steve hot-swapping disks on the Emulator, Barney in a playful mood, and the audience going nuts.

Yep it’s bloody great.

Really enjoy the audio quality on it as well. Sounds ace on my headphones.Frank Arkwright did some sterling work with the audio on these live videos? Great job if so.

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7 Oct 2020, 21:15 · edited 7 Oct 2020, 21:15

The rapport between band and audience reaches a great peak during Ceremony when Barney does all his “ Thanks very much/ so pleased to see you all here/ so pleased you like Temptation/ on my left I have Peter Hook ...” etc. You can feel the good positive fun vibe a mile off. Do you think the added bonus of the Irish beauty in the audience at the front just a couple of feet in front of Barney throughout the gig put him in a good mood as well? [:p] [:)]

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7 Oct 2020, 22:00

Watching Blue Monday at Alabamahalle, Munich , 1984 and somehow Barney ends up with a bunch of flowers in his hand, thought I was watching Morrissey for a second there.

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7 Oct 2020, 22:03

NotAMod wrote: Anyone noticed on the Metropol, Berlin 1984 performance of Confusion the first minute and a half is actually Sister Ray? Fabulous.

Actually to my ears it's closer to Skullcrusher (especially the Barcelona 1984 live version) than Sister Ray, but there is some shared song DNA there

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7 Oct 2020, 22:23 · edited 7 Oct 2020, 22:25

Just noticed all the tv appearances are in mono, I think. Was sure at least with Blue Monday TOTP there’s stereo versions in existence. Oh well.Not a big thing and anyway the magnificent audio on the live footage from gigs is the top class.

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8 Oct 2020, 07:18

The footage of Love Will Tear Us Apart from Birmingham Tower Ballroom is mega! I was there, pretty much at the front, and it's exactly how I remember it. It was the first song and NO ONE was expecting it. The place went nuts, one of the best gigs I've ever witnessed and one of the best times I saw New Order.

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8 Oct 2020, 09:09

Fotz wrote: Just noticed all the tv appearances are in mono, I think. Was sure at least with Blue Monday TOTP there’s stereo versions in existence. Oh well.Not a big thing and anyway the magnificent audio on the live footage from gigs is the top class.

The TOTP 'Blue Monday' on 'NewOrderStory' is also mono.

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12 Oct 2020, 16:17

Has anyone noticed any differences in the artwork for the new reissues?

The previous 12"s released alongside the Movement set all had variations of some kind in the sleeves compared to the originals

I was just in HMV and noticed that the Murder 12" seems to be closer to a black sleeve, rather than my original which is more of a dark purple

Confusion seemed more or less the same, and BM / TLU were sold out so I couldn't tell

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12 Oct 2020, 16:35

GotBlueEyes wrote: Has anyone noticed any differences in the artwork for the new reissues?

The previous 12"s released alongside the Movement set all had variations of some kind in the sleeves compared to the originals

I was just in HMV and noticed that the Murder 12" seems to be closer to a black sleeve, rather than my original which is more of a dark purple

Confusion seemed more or less the same, and BM / TLU were sold out so I couldn't tell

Confusion has a matt cover rather than the gloss original . I agree with the Murder one, almost black rather than the very very dark blue/purple original. The new Thieves sleeve has some of the colours in the centre picture slightly tweeked I think, the sky above the building with arches is a different shade maybe. The picture looks sharper too. Maybe similar with the pic on the Murder sleeve. The BM sleeve has a small QR code with the colour blocks , when scanned on phone it takes you to neworder. com

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12 Oct 2020, 18:45 · edited 12 Oct 2020, 18:47

GotBlueEyes wrote: Has anyone noticed any differences in the artwork for the new reissues?

Confusion, Thieves Like Us, and Murder all have card stock inner sleeves instead of paper. The inners for TLU and Murder include the lower case "b" in a rectangle which could either be a Benelux logo or perhaps for "BeMusic" (the same logo appears on the center labels).

The font used on the spines of Blue Monday and Confusion is slightly smaller than the originals, so not edge-to-edge.

As mentioned, Confusion is matte, not glossy.

The de Chirico painting on the cover of TLU has a "cooling" Photoshop filter, so the hues are more blue than orange.

Murder is black, not midnight blue. The inner is black, too, however, the LABEL is midnight blue instead of black or white (depending on the pressing) like the original.

Murder also has nothing on the spine, where the original has FBN 22 and FACTORY BENELUX.

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12 Oct 2020, 21:57

50poundnote wrote:

GotBlueEyes wrote: Has anyone noticed any differences in the artwork for the new reissues?

Murder is black, not midnight blue. The inner is black, too, however, the LABEL is midnight blue instead of black or white (depending on the pressing) like the original.

Murder also has nothing on the spine, where the original has FBN 22 and FACTORY BENELUX.

Actually the details are there on the spine, it's just come out rather dark so you can hardly see them. The sleeve is also blue but again, so dark it's nearly black.

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12 Oct 2020, 22:50

Johnny James wrote: Actually the details are there on the spine, it's just come out rather dark so you can hardly see them. The sleeve is also blue but again, so dark it's nearly black.

I stand corrected! Have it in a plastic sleeve and coudn't see it until I took it out.

It also says New Order at the top, which is not on the original Benelux issue, but makes it consistent with TLU. FBN 22 has been moved to the bottom.

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12 Oct 2020, 22:51

...I should add, I don't have a quibble with any of these changes. They're minor, but add some consistency. Plus, I have the originals.

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17 Oct 2020, 23:45

On DVD 1 , the audio on the Düsseldorf, Munich and Berlin ( oh there’s a lot of West Germany 1984 tour clips isn’t there?) really is bloody good. Especially on Lonesome Tonight at Metropol Berlin- the synths sound a beaut.

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18 Oct 2020, 10:59 · edited 18 Oct 2020, 11:14

Is it me or is Gillian’s synth a bit out of tune or something on In A Lonely Place at start of the Hac 82 gig? It almost sounds like a Kazoo! Nothing unusual for an 80s NO gig of course! Her off the shoulder gala ( is it called a gala dress?) number she’s wearing at that gig very reminiscent of summer 82 fashion. Reminds of the beautiful and lovely Martha Ladly appearing with The Associates doing ‘18 Carat Love Affair’ on Top Of The Pops in 1982, she was also wearing an off the shoulder in that performance. New Order connection there of course with Martha, she was ( or still is?) with Peter Saville for a time and she did the painting on the Factus 8 EP sleeve.

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18 Oct 2020, 12:15 · edited 18 Oct 2020, 12:15

I'm not sure if it's out of tune or just that the keyboards sounds are a bit flat. But I'm not musically minded, so probably not the best person to comment.

It certainly sounds a little odd.

Talking of Martha Ladly, I was listening to an XFM radio documentary on the 'Brotherhood' LP yesterday. Hooky mentioned that, at the time of the LP, Saville was dating Ladly and she was inspiring him to do more abstract artwork, hence the sleeves for 'Brotherhood', 'Shellshock', 'State Of The Nation' and 'Bizarre Love Triangle'.

So, she was still in Saville's world four years after the FACTUS8 release. I don't think he's still with her.

Incidentally, Hooky pronounced her name as 'Laid-ly'. I'd always assumed it was 'Lad-ly'.

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18 Oct 2020, 13:09 · edited 18 Oct 2020, 13:17

perspexorange wrote: I'm not sure if it's out of tune or just that the keyboards sounds are a bit flat. But I'm not musically minded, so probably not the best person to comment.

It certainly sounds a little odd.

Talking of Martha Ladly, I was listening to an XFM radio documentary on the 'Brotherhood' LP yesterday. Hooky mentioned that, at the time of the LP, Saville was dating Ladly and she was inspiring him to do more abstract artwork, hence the sleeves for 'Brotherhood', 'Shellshock', 'State Of The Nation' and 'Bizarre Love Triangle'.

So, she was still in Saville's world four years after the FACTUS8 release. I don't think he's still with her.

Incidentally, Hooky pronounced her name as 'Laid-ly'. I'd always assumed it was 'Lad-ly'.

Yeah I’d agree with that, it does sound odd.

Oh I remember that Brotherhood doc on XFM.Was good to have a doc about one of their, shall we say, less celebrated albums. On the thread on here at the time , I commented about how the songs sounded a bit beefier and livelier on the radio and pondered how radio producers do that. The guy , or one of the guys, who made the programme , registered on here and replied to my post and confirmed radio producers do indeed tweak the sound for radio. No shit, Sherlock . But yeah, was nice of him to come on here and contribute.

Hooky pronounced Ladly as Laidly? Maybe he’s correct, I don’t know.

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18 Oct 2020, 13:26

Hmmm.

Just found this interview with her from last year.

Seems she pronounces it 'Lad-ly'.

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18 Oct 2020, 14:45

I'm not sure i'd known she was also at one time in Martha & The Mufffins.Though, not the Martha of that band, that was Martha Johnson.There were two Marthas in the band at one point.

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22 Oct 2020, 21:14 · edited 22 Oct 2020, 21:21

Well, have caned the box set over the last couple of weeks and my highlights and faves are:

Kilkenny video on DVD 1. Hac 82 in second place.Thought the Hac 83 vid would have been top spot but I’d put it in third place , though the 12 minute Thieves Like Us runs it close. Actually maybe 4th place below the extras on DVD 1- the Tolworth 83 and West Germany 84 clips are superb for the audio quality alone.

The Thieves writing session and New York demo in the extras CD. Great CD but I think I’d rate the Movement extras CD higher because those Cargo sessions are so good.

Box presentation and the book are fab.

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23 Oct 2020, 15:56

Fotz wrote: Well, have caned the box set over the last couple of weeks and my highlights and faves are:

Kilkenny video on DVD 1. Hac 82 in second place.Thought the Hac 83 vid would have been top spot but I’d put it in third place , though the 12 minute Thieves Like Us runs it close. Actually maybe 4th place below the extras on DVD 1- the Tolworth 83 and West Germany 84 clips are superb for the audio quality alone.

The Thieves writing session and New York demo in the extras CD. Great CD but I think I’d rate the Movement extras CD higher because those Cargo sessions are so good.

Box presentation and the book are fab.

Agree with comments in the main. Kilkenny a definite favourite. The cargo sessions will be hard to beat from any box set.

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24 Oct 2020, 22:05 · edited 24 Oct 2020, 22:18

Got round to listening more closely to the remastered album, had previously been concentrating on the DVDs and CD.The remaster is hard to fault. I mean, I didn’t rip my headphones off in horror so it must be pretty good. Some clearer sounds here and there, maybe one or two things I hadn’t heard before. A guitar lick or two towards end of We All Stand and I could have sworn I heard a different nuance to the vocoder in Ecstacy at one point though I may have imagined that. Bass drum thump maybe a different timbre at the start of 586.Saw on Steve Hoffman forum one or two people seemed to be slagging off Frank Arkwright’s work. But all too technical for me with all those info about , dunno, soundwaves or something? God knows. I spotted our old friend neggzy minus on the Hoffman thing . Though I don’t think he was one of the ones unhappy with Frank’s work, I must add. The x4 single remasters on vinyl sound pretty bloody good to me .But I do need my ears syringing /microsuctioned- on the waiting list at Specsavers hearing dept for an appointment.

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