Mapping The Definitive Editions - Low-life

Wow what a great couple of days, loved reading all the comments it’s all part of the fun of a new release - Boxset looks visually fantastic!

A few thoughts / queries:

Perfect Kiss Writing Session - imo similar to some of the writing tracks off PCL, fairly unrecognisable after the first intro - still can’t stop listening to it though!

T-Shirt - What’s the material like of the NO T-Shirts nowadays, bought a couple in the past and they’ve been a bit thin and the neck seems a bit big. Like the design so very tempted!

Looking forward to the video interviews with the band members. Do you think we’ll get more episodes of the excellent ‘Transmissions’ podcast?

Finally any idea when Brotherhood will be out? Only joking JJ!! 😄

Like No Other wrote: Wow what a great couple of days, loved reading all the comments it’s all part of the fun of a new release -

Yep, it's all good fun discussing and debating . Takes the mind off the shitshow that is life and the world right now.

50poundnote wrote: The band just posted a link to The Perfect Kiss on Twitter and Instagram, and they're using the sleeve I build in Photoshop for Recycle. That feels very validating! :)

I may be mistaken. I've never seen the sleeve presented online as such a clean, uniform image outside Recycle, but there are subtle differences. I'm thinking they used whatever digital file was created for the reissue. Still looks amazing.

50poundnote wrote: Johnny, can you explain the decision not to include the finished vocal version of Let's Go?

I have a cleaned up version that sounds fantastic considering it's sourced from an old cassette. Was it left off the album at the last minute to 1. make room for an edit of The Perfect Kiss, or 2. because it sounds too similar to Sooner Than You Think?

I guess the easiest explanation is that the instrumental had more chance of getting through, rejected vocals are not particularly favoured. As you say, there is a pretty clear leaked version out there, so now you get a completely unheard instrumental instead.

Fotz wrote: On DVD 2, why are Thieves Like Us, Temptation and Confusion placed as bonus tracks at the end of the Leuven video rather than their original place in the set that night? For example, TLU was 4th song at that gig.

I did really want to re-edit the whole thing and restore the correct order, but we only got the footage with hours to spare before deadline, so it was done this way instead as it was the simplest and quickest solution. I did do some minor work on the bonus tracks (resynching desk audio on Confusion, as we'd already had that).

Also, Confusion is from a live edit with a different picture quality so it would have looked a little odd inserted into the middle of the rest, especially given that the picture breaks up a few times.

From what we received, it does look very much like TLU and Temptation were a seperate broadcast at the time of 'what you missed' from the main show.

perspexorange wrote:

Whilst we're asking JJ questions, could he perhaps answer the following:

1. What the 'TV Pitch' means in respect of Love Vigilantes;
2. Based on the store description which lists 'a BBC session and three tracks performed at the Hacienda in 1985.', does that mean that the25/08/84 session is on it and just not listed? Or was it pulled and the contents rejigged?

I know I mentioned these before, but this thread has moved on quite a bit since then (nice to see a flurry of activity on the boards!)

1. Love Vigilantes Instrumental seems to be a specially created edit done for the 1986 world cup, so we gave it a name that hints at the football aspect. I've no idea if it was ever used at the time, perhaps someone knows?

2. That Rock Around The Clock performance was mooted, so the text is probably a remnant of when it was on the list. It was dropped mainly because there is no master at the BBC, so all we could offer would be a VHS transfer with better audio from the radio, and there are versions like that floating about already.

Thanks JJ. Great to have your input here.

I echo other people’s comments on here in thanking you and others in bringing us such a gorgeous looking set, jam-packed with great contents. It looks like it’ll be a beauty.

Johnny James wrote:

1. Love Vigilantes Instrumental seems to be a specially created edit done for the 1986 world cup, so we gave it a name that hints at the football aspect. I've no idea if it was ever used at the time, perhaps someone knows?

Crumbs this is news to me. I do recall in the past couple of years hearing Love Vig used in a trailer on BBC News Channel (!) for one of their own segments/shows. At the time I assumed they just made their own edit of the non-vocal sections. Now I'm wondering if they might have had this in the library...

Johnny James wrote:

Fotz wrote: On DVD 2, why are Thieves Like Us, Temptation and Confusion placed as bonus tracks at the end of the Leuven video rather than their original place in the set that night? For example, TLU was 4th song at that gig.

I did really want to re-edit the whole thing and restore the correct order, but we only got the footage with hours to spare before deadline, so it was done this way instead as it was the simplest and quickest solution. I did do some minor work on the bonus tracks (resynching desk audio on Confusion, as we'd already had that).

Also, Confusion is from a live edit with a different picture quality so it would have looked a little odd inserted into the middle of the rest, especially given that the picture breaks up a few times.

From what we received, it does look very much like TLU and Temptation were a seperate broadcast at the time of 'what you missed' from the main show.

Fantastic.That all makes sense now.Many thanks

Johnny James wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

Whilst we're asking JJ questions, could he perhaps answer the following:

1. What the 'TV Pitch' means in respect of Love Vigilantes;

1. Love Vigilantes Instrumental seems to be a specially created edit done for the 1986 world cup, so we gave it a name that hints at the football aspect. I've no idea if it was ever used at the time, perhaps someone knows?

Woah! This possibly has solved a mystery for me that dates right back to the 1986 World Cup.

On the opening day of that WC, i was at work (i worked in a shop at the time) as it was a Saturday ( 31st May, i looked it up) and my colleague nipped home for his lunch hour.When he came back he told me he'd been watching the build up on tv for the start of the tournament and the opening match and said, in a football action montage they'd used as soundtrack an "Acoustic version " of Love Vigilantes.I said what do you mean? And he simply said it was Love Vigilantes but a different version, kind of an "Acoustic" version.I didn't and have never known if he had just mistaken it for the album version or a completely different song and as i hadn't seen it or recorded the programme i never knew for sure.

I don't know if it was the ITV coverage my colleague had been watching or BBC but if anyone hunts for it , it was 31st May 86, the World Cup opening day stuff on tv.

Edit: just wondering, it may have been a special World Cup Football Focus as it was lunchtime ( as i said , my colleague had nipped home for lunch) .If it was ITV i guess it might have been On The Ball with Saint and Greavsie.If it was BBC it would've been Football Focus.

Yeah. News to me too. There seemed to be a real NO fan in the BBC Sounds department in the late 80s/early 90s, as their music seemed to be used for a whole host of things (I remember once hearing the instrumental of TLU on a programme showing whales swimming in the ocean). I always assumed that this person was making edits etc. Maybe the band were supplying things like this to the Beeb.

perspexorange wrote:

As regards 'Skullcrusher', I quite like the piece (more so than 'Sputnik', which is nice but feels a bit pointless, in my humble opinion). Considering it made its first live appearance in 1984 (three years before 'Salvation'), it's possible that a studio version of this track might've been attempted around Low Life. So, I guess, there's a slight possibility that something Skullcrushery could turn up on this next set.

Hey, who knows? Maybe there's a studio version of 'Love Juice' out there?

I know Johnny James probably wants to (understandably) stay tight-lipped regarding the contents of the Low Life set until officially announced. However, if he could shed light on when studio versions of the Salvation tracks were attempted, that'd be interesting. Also, if he has any info about whether 'Sputnik'/'Salvation' were from a longer bit of music etc?

So, it looks like I was correct in my assumption that Skullcrusher might've been attempted at the time of Low Life, with a demo appearing as track 14 on CD2.

I wonder if it's instrumental or one with lyrics.

Looking at the listing for CD2, and based on the format of Power, Corruption & Lies 'writing session' tracks, it seems possible that 'Sooner Than You Think – Album Session Unedited Version' (*) might be the only track with vocals on that disc.

* Incidentally, this is what the New Order Store calls it. Qobuz is listing it as 'Sooner Than You Think (Full Length Version)'. Semantics, I know.

Well, what a fantastic time to be a New Order fan.

This album, probably more than any of the others, is the moment where the band became what most of us came to know and truly love about NO.

Just listening to the Cargo demos on my way home. My word. They were magnificent. Best band ever.

perspexorange wrote:

This album, probably more than any of the others, is the moment where the band became what most of us came to know and truly love about NO.

Yes, it was probably the album i excitedly anticipated more than any other music in my life as it would be the first new album by them after i had got into the band as a teenager.And obviously i was at a young and impressionable age.

I've had a hunt around for the edition of Grandstand World Cup Football Focus from 31.05.86 to see if i could locate this football montage with the alternative version of LV my work colleague had told me about way back then and which i mentioned in an earlier post in this thread,But nothing found .I'm slightly surprised i've never ever seen mention of this clip in all the years.I only knew about it because my colleague had seen it at the time.I found this website that mentions that on the opening day of World Cup 86 there was Football Focus section of Grandstand from 12.35pm to 1pm.I'd wager my house that that was where the LV alternative , or "TV Pitch" version was used during a montage. BBC tended to use NO music more than ITV and i lean towards if NO were making tracks for use for TV in Sport it'd have been to BBC (mind you , Best & Marsh was ITV So that kind of scotches that theory!) .From this blog it states

"Sat 31/May/1986 "Saint & Greavsie's World Cup"*Ian St John and Jimmy Greaves previewed the World Cup 7 hours before kick-off at 12:05-12:30pm, ITV also showed a schoolboys international at Wembley between England and Italy at 2:45-5:00pm with Brian Moore & Ian St John commentating. BBC1 previewed the tournament during "Grandstand" with a World Cup 'Football Focus' at 12:35-1:00pm."

You have your sources, perspex, any chance you could ask around if anyone has this? Someone must have it.

I’ll do some asking around.

Credit to you Fotz for doing a bit of research on dates etc. That will help narrow things down a bit.

I ordered the crystal TPK 12" last week and left it at that: I don't know what the justification is for them charging £60 more than PC&L for the standard boxset but I'm in no rush to pay that much for it.

I think that the box sets were initially on the store as follows:

Movement (April 2019) £120.00 Power, Corruption & Lies (October 2020) £112.99 Low Life (January 2023) £149.99

So, the increase to £149.99, although fairly hefty, isn't as bad as £60. An increase of £30 in almost four years on Movement, so about £7.50 per year inflation. Not that bad, when you think about it that way. Especially considering the current economic crisis.

I guess they can afford to sell the previous two sets at a discounted price a) because they may well have covered their costs, profit margins etc. by now and b) they want to sell off excess stock.

All that being said, I totally get the fact that this is a pricey article, and there's a certain amount of sense in waiting for the inevitable price drop.

I will be getting on day of release though. I'm not exactly patient and want to get my hands on this stuff straight away. Besides, I'm also always worried that these things might sell out before I get my hands on them (just because they have stock of the older sets still, doesn't necessarily mean that they will have the same number of sets of Low Life in their warehouse in a few months time).

I remember deciding to wait for a significant price drop on one of the Bowie 'era' box sets ('Loving The Alien'). That never really happened, and the set is now discontinued (much to my annoyance). Previous sets hung around for ages and prices dropped considerably.

perspexorange wrote: I think that the box sets were initially on the store as follows:

Movement (April 2019) £120.00 Power, Corruption & Lies (October 2020) £112.99 Low Life (January 2023) £149.99

I ordered the first two on Amazon UK pre-order as soon as they were available. They do the thing where they don't charge you until despatch AND they charge you the cheapest price it dropped to in the interim

Just checked and my Movement box cost £89.22 and PCL cost £90.93

So both ended up being £20-£30 cheaper than the initial retail price

Annoying, as I'd rather not use Amazon from an ethical point of view - but they make it hard with stuff like this!

If you order from the NO Store you pay up front and you have to watch in horror if the price drops elsewhere

I'm afraid I had a bad experience with the New Order Store (run by Warner Bros, actually) a couple of years ago on a "Blue Monday Sale" order. The product didn't appear and it took a couple of months for them to send a replacement order. Since then, the site never seems able to retrieve my account info. I haven't changed my email or password, but always get the "Invalid Login" error. I've clicked the "Forgot Password" button to change it in the UK and US stores but never receive the appropriate email to do so.

But again, the Guest option works as I've since received orders of a Taras shirt and two New Order Crew shirts (one from each region's store - they are identical, by the way) with no issues. But unless there's a NewOrderStore exclusive (like The Perfect Kiss 12"), I'll end up using Amazon.

Andy wrote: I'm afraid I had a bad experience with the New Order Store (run by Warner Bros, actually) a couple of years ago on a "Blue Monday Sale" order. The product didn't appear and it took a couple of months for them to send a replacement order. Since then, the site never seems able to retrieve my account info. I haven't changed my email or password, but always get the "Invalid Login" error. I've clicked the "Forgot Password" button to change it in the UK and US stores but never receive the appropriate email to do so.

But again, the Guest option works as I've since received orders of a Taras shirt and two New Order Crew shirts (one from each region's store - they are identical, by the way) with no issues. But unless there's a NewOrderStore exclusive (like The Perfect Kiss 12"), I'll end up using Amazon.

i had similar issues (but not a bad experience).

the only reason i did order from the new order store, was for the exclusives.

although, they will end up on discogs, and ebay too.

this time, i just wanted to get EVERYTHING all in one place at one time.

NOTE : i tried ordering all the same items from the US store, and it came out HIGHER than it did from the UK one? weird...

later -1

Andy wrote: ....the site never seems able to retrieve my account info. I haven't changed my email or password, but always get the "Invalid Login" error. I've clicked the "Forgot Password" button to change it in the UK .....but never receive the appropriate email to do so.

But again, the Guest option works.... But unless there's a NewOrderStore exclusive (like The Perfect Kiss 12"), I'll end up using Amazon.

Yep, exactly same for me.

I hope the price hike doesn't prevent ongoing releases. By the time Technique comes around it could be 200+, especially with cost of living crisis and all that as I'm currently removing slats from my lodgers bed to use for firewood.

I got the Movement box set for about 70 recently but as beautiful as it is I've only listened/watched it once. The video stuff is not really interesting to me. I remember recording Edinburgh/Glasgow/Leeds in early 1985 so had the good fortune (or not) of hearing the LowLife tracks in advance. Always felt Face Upcame off better live.

Johnny James wrote:

50poundnote wrote: Johnny, can you explain the decision not to include the finished vocal version of Let's Go?

I have a cleaned up version that sounds fantastic considering it's sourced from an old cassette. Was it left off the album at the last minute to 1. make room for an edit of The Perfect Kiss, or 2. because it sounds too similar to Sooner Than You Think?

I guess the easiest explanation is that the instrumental had more chance of getting through, rejected vocals are not particularly favoured. As you say, there is a pretty clear leaked version out there, so now you get a completely unheard instrumental instead.

Where can you hear the cleaned up original vocal version of Let's Go? The only version mp3 ever heard had terrible sound quality.

Really hoping let’s go is issued on vinyl as some sort of record store day. Vocal one side instrumental the other.

Thinking again about the £149 price.... i mean, really? I know, i know, inflation, and i presume rising production costs for these kind of things and all that.Just find it very steep.And the thing is with this box is i already have and watched umpteen times back in the day the Tokyo and Leuven videos ( though obviously never seen Confusion from the latter) and the Whistle Test stuff ( though of course not Face Up).On release day in January i'll be able to listen to the previously unreleased and unheard extras on Spotify or Amazon Music streaming anyway, i wouldn't need to buy the box to hear that stuff.Then there's the book, yeah i'd love to see that of course and the Rotterdam and Toronto gigs on one of the DVDs but i'm not as excitedly waiting to see those as i was the Peppermint Lounge and Hurrah footage on the Movement box and the Kilkenny and Hacienda 82 and 83 stuff on the PCL one.I just feel right now that this will be the first of the Definitive boxes i won't pre order before release day unless the price has dramatically dropped by then.I will buy the box eventually but it may not be until many months after release when the price has, hopefully, come right down.

Sorry to sound negative about it and i do appreciate all the work Johnny and everyone involved has put into this release.

Fotz wrote: Thinking again about the £149 price.... i mean, really? I know, i know, inflation, and i presume rising production costs for these kind of things and all that.Just find it very steep.And the thing is with this box is i already have and watched umpteen times back in the day the Tokyo and Leuven videos ( though obviously never seen Confusion from the latter) and the Whistle Test stuff ( though of course not Face Up).On release day in January i'll be able to listen to the previously unreleased and unheard extras on Spotify or Amazon Music streaming anyway, i wouldn't need to buy the box to hear that stuff.Then there's the book, yeah i'd love to see that of course and the Rotterdam and Toronto gigs on one of the DVDs but i'm not as excitedly waiting to see those as i was the Peppermint Lounge and Hurrah footage on the Movement box and the Kilkenny and Hacienda 82 and 83 stuff on the PCL one.I just feel right now that this will be the first of the Definitive boxes i won't pre order before release day unless the price has dramatically dropped by then.I will buy the box eventually but it may not be until many months after release when the price has, hopefully, come right down.

Sorry to sound negative about it and i do appreciate all the work Johnny and everyone involved has put into this release.

Very good points. I feel the same

[TWITTER]1596203312377888771[/TWITTER]

Very nice indeed!

Hmm, I wonder why their link doesn't include the YouTube upload. Here it is:

Nice.

Sounds like the instrumental dub version that might have appeared on a 12" B-side had 'Love Vigilantes' ever been released as a single...

"Dub Vigilantes"?