Mapping The Definitive Editions - Low-life

Now that people have started to receive the Power, Corruption & Lies box, what do we think will appear on Low-life?

Tracing paper sleeve Newly-mastered without pre-emphasis Let's Go (with original vocal) Sunrise (Instrumental Rough Mix) from the Discreet Campaigns compilation Full-length Elegia Pumped Full Of Drugs

The Perfect Kiss 12" Sub-culture 12"

I can't decide if the Shellshock 12" will be rolled into this or Brotherhood.

I’m not entirely sure what pre emphasis is

But yeah, all of the above. Has to be the tracing paper sleeve!

Would love a remastered TPK 12” . Shellshock is a funny one, it fell halfway between Low Life and Brotherhood and it’s hard to call which box it belongs with. I’d assume the box will be white .Can’t imagine it’d be black but maybe .

Pré emphasis is the reason why the sound of the original Factory CD is so low. Yes, Sunrise (Instrumental Rough Mix) should be the priority number one.

Fotz wrote: I’m not entirely sure what pre emphasis is

Something added during the mastering stage. The only CD without it was the Japanese disc.

Live take of The Perfect Kiss from the video shoot that was included on the bonus CD in Retro.

Crikey, Mr £50note! You're very keen!

Not that that's a problem, of course!

I'm going to need some time to think about possible contents, but the following are definite for me:

Design: Tracing paper sleeve for LP Tracing paper and 4 x inserts for CD

CDs: 'Let's Go' (Vocal Version - the original 'Waiting For So Long' version) 'Sunrise' (Instrumental Rough Mix) 'As It Is When It Was' (Demo) (which was recorded during the 'Low Life' era, but might be best to sit on 'Brotherhood' though)

DVDs: Haçienda footage from 'The Old Grey Whistle Test' 'Rock Around The Clock' Leuven 1985 from 'Rox Box' maybe even Barcelona 1984, from 'Estoc De Pop'

Additional: 3 x 12" - The Perfect Kiss, Sub-Culture & Shellshock

I think Shellshock fits better with this LP, and considering 'Brotherhood' could have anywhere between 4-6 singles with it (*), it might be best to ensure it is covered in the 'Low Life' box set.

* Depending if the 'Substance' era 12"s are included with the release of the 'Brotherhood' set ('State Of The Nation', 'Bizarre Love Triangle', 2 x 'True Faith', 'Touched By The Hand Of God' and, possibly, 'Blue Monday 1988'). Of course, if 'True Faith', 'Touched' and 'Blue Monday 1988' are included with the 'Substance' reissue, 'Shellshock' could just as easily be shifted to 'Brotherhood'.

As I mentioned on another thread I would love for full length Elegia on vinyl with let’s go on B side as an additional 12”. I know it’s not in keeping with the other box sets but it would be most appreciative if anyone with any influence is reading😷

I understand wanting it, but I don't like revisionist things like that in a "definitive" box: if it wasn't released as a 12" at the time, it shouldn't be now. That's the sort of thing that's better suited for a Record Store Day release. A one-sided 12" using the alternate band photos from the cassette edition of Low-life on the cover.

Agreed. no need to put out something that didn't exist at the time.

later -1

full length Elegia on vinyl with let’s go on B side as an additional 12”. Yeah, definitely gonna happen. I'm also looking forward to the Spice Girls reforming to perch naked on my park bench of choice. Tracing paper... The full-length Elegaia even though it's about as exciting as Skegness on half-closing day... Pumped Full of Drugs... Perfect Snog 12", Snog of Death, Perfect Pit. All four Subculture single versione plus Record Mirror take. Estoc the Cock is too wanchored in the PCL ethos for Low Life.

Fotz wrote: I’m not entirely sure what pre emphasis is

But yeah, all of the above. Has to be the tracing paper sleeve!

Would love a remastered TPK 12” . Shellshock is a funny one, it fell halfway between Low Life and Brotherhood and it’s hard to call which box it belongs with. I’d assume the box will be white .Can’t imagine it’d be black but maybe .

Another peculiar thing about including Shellshock is that State of the Nation was actually recorded months before it (in Japan, around the time of the release of Low-Life). But it would be odd to include State as its release was so close to that of Brotherhood.

... And it was included on some Brotherhood CDs, I think. As it is when it wanks would have to be Brotherhood, too. Some interesting demos with different lyrics around.

Michael Monkhouse wrote:

As it is when it wanks would have to be Brotherhood, too. Some interesting demos with different lyrics around.

Yeah, I know it fits on ‘Brotherhood’ but am sure it was recorded around the time of ‘Low Life’.

There’s a gig somewhere (from around May 1985, I think) where Bernard introduces it as ‘a song so new, it isn’t even on our new LP’ or similar.

Think the song was debuted live on 17/04/85.

I keep trying to post and get that stupid spam error message!

Low-life with The Perfect Kiss and Subculture

Brotherhood with Shellshock, State Of The Nation, and Bizarre Love Triangle

Substance with True Faith, TF Remix, Touched By The Hand Of God, and Blue Monday '88

(Rolls Touched By The Hand Of God and Blue Monday '88 in on an extra CD, but preserves the track list of the original more or less)

Technique with Fine Time, FT Remix, Round & Round, Round & Remix, Run 2, World In Motion, and WIM Remix

(All the remaining remixes rolled in across 2 additional CDs)

50poundnote wrote: I understand wanting it, but I don't like revisionist things like that in a "definitive" box: if it wasn't released as a 12" at the time, it shouldn't be now. That's the sort of thing that's better suited for a Record Store Day release. A one-sided 12" using the alternate band photos from the cassette edition of Low-life on the cover.

Fair point. I guest he best place for it is a RSD special. Here’s to hoping.

The Subculture sleeve though. Stick to the old? Disappointment all over again..

BazG wrote: The Subculture sleeve though. Stick to the old? Disappointment all over again..

It would be nice if Saville came forward and said ‘oh, I did design a sleeve for it, but it wasn’t ready in time’ and they use that. Unlikely, but one can dream.

perspexorange wrote:

Leuven 1985 from 'Rox Box'

The more I think about, the more i think this shouldn’t be included. There is excellent quality footage of this gig out there in the wild already. Better to have something previously unseen included. Of corse, I wouldn’t complain at its inclusion. It is a brilliant gig, but I’m sure there are others of a similar quality from this period.

perspexorange wrote:

BazG wrote: The Subculture sleeve though. Stick to the old? Disappointment all over again..

It would be nice if Saville came forward and said ‘oh, I did design a sleeve for it, but it wasn’t ready in time’ and they use that. Unlikely, but one can dream.

Some people still think there's more to the story than Saville's version that he wasn't asked to do a sleeve? Ok. Some people have convinced themselves that the earth is flat. Jude Rogers of The Quietus thinks that the arrival of Gillian (who could barely play keyboards) had a huge affect on NO's sound. I can't force people to stick to the facts...

Yeah, I commented on that Gillian bit too. Bit of a generalisation. still, she's their secret weapon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The only ''authority'' I know for the blank Subculture sleeve is the Paradise fanzine. I like it though. Bernard is their secret weapon!

BazG wrote: The Subculture sleeve though. Stick to the old? Disappointment all over again..

why should they change it. they typography on the labels is cool enough.

leave things alone.

later -1

Debaser wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

BazG wrote: The Subculture sleeve though. Stick to the old? Disappointment all over again..

It would be nice if Saville came forward and said ‘oh, I did design a sleeve for it, but it wasn’t ready in time’ and they use that. Unlikely, but one can dream.

Some people still think there's more to the story than Saville's version that he wasn't asked to do a sleeve? Ok. Some people have convinced themselves that the earth is flat. Jude Rogers of The Quietus thinks that the arrival of Gillian (who could barely play keyboards) had a huge affect on NO's sound. I can't force people to stick to the facts...

Crikey. I only made reference to a 'pipe dream' that there might be a cover that was just too late to make the single release. I even commented that it was 'unlikely'.

I don't necessarily consider that there is a cover, but I don't necessarily believe the 'fact' that 'Saville wasn't asked to do one'. For a start, there's also the story that he heard the remix and thought it 'too shit' to do a cover for (although he presumably still designed the labels).

Saville's memory is probably fairly sketchy at best, especially 35 years after the fact. And I've lost count of the amount of times Saville, Wilson, Gretton, the band embellished facts in interviews on a whim.

I doubt we'll ever really know for definite what happened. Even if Steve covers this in his book, it's still his 'view' on what happened. Unless someone uncovers a letter between Saville and Gretton, stating the reason for the 'non-cover', we'll always have to speculate.

For what it's worth:

I don't believe there's a cover. I think Gillian's input is significant (just because someone isn't proficient with an instrument, doesn't mean they're bereft of ideas. Hooky, by his own admission, is tone deaf. And let's face facts, Bernard ain't Johnny Marr is he? Yet they're both masters in their own right). I also believe that the Earth is spherical, but am happy to proved wrong.

perspexorange wrote:

Debaser wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

BazG wrote: The Subculture sleeve though. Stick to the old? Disappointment all over again..

It would be nice if Saville came forward and said ‘oh, I did design a sleeve for it, but it wasn’t ready in time’ and they use that. Unlikely, but one can dream.

Some people still think there's more to the story than Saville's version that he wasn't asked to do a sleeve? Ok. Some people have convinced themselves that the earth is flat. Jude Rogers of The Quietus thinks that the arrival of Gillian (who could barely play keyboards) had a huge affect on NO's sound. I can't force people to stick to the facts...

Crikey. I only made reference to a 'pipe dream' that there might be a cover that was just too late to make the single release. I even commented that it was 'unlikely'.

I don't necessarily consider that there is a cover, but I don't necessarily believe the 'fact' that 'Saville wasn't asked to do one'. For a start, there's also the story that he heard the remix and thought it 'too shit' to do a cover for (although he presumably still designed the labels).

Saville's memory is probably fairly sketchy at best, especially 35 years after the fact. And I've lost count of the amount of times Saville, Wilson, Gretton, the band embellished facts in interviews on a whim.

I doubt we'll ever really know for definite what happened. Even if Steve covers this in his book, it's still his 'view' on what happened. Unless someone uncovers a letter between Saville and Gretton, stating the reason for the 'non-cover', we'll always have to speculate.

For what it's worth:

I don't believe there's a cover. I think Gillian's input is significant (just because someone isn't proficient with an instrument, doesn't mean they're bereft of ideas. Hooky, by his own admission, is tone deaf. And let's face facts, Bernard ain't Johnny Marr is he? Yet they're both masters in their own right). I also believe that the Earth is spherical, but am happy to proved wrong.

Ok my post was a bit arsy but I fear that when people offer up scenarios such as "there might be a sleeve but maybe it was done too late", they end up as some sort of semi-assumed fact or urban myth. Like the guy in the TPK video who supposedly represented Ian Curtis (nope).

So maybe my tone was a little strong in that last post. Nonetheless, I'm with Monkhouse on Gillian. Imagine if any one of us joined the three remaining members of JD and said: "right I'm going to be instrumental in changing their sound even though I'm a newbie with no experience". Nah! As she says in the interview "I got some of my bits in". Great, more power to you Gillian, but that's not quite the same as Jude's interpretation of things.

As for the story about Saville hating the Subculture remix. What's the source?

I’m fascinated to learn that they used pre emphasis On the original CD. I’ve been interested in CDs with preemphasis ever since discovering that the quake soundtrack also had it set. We don’t know whether that was by accident or not. CD players of the time should have corrected for it though. So why does it matter? (digital playback on CD-ROMs doesn’t usually apply the de emphasis curve properly, and many cd rippers don’t handle it)

Debaser wrote:

As for the story about Saville hating the Subculture remix. What's the source?

Dunno about the source. It's again one of those things that was probably said in an article back in the day.
It's something i remember reading years ago. Lost in the mists of time.

Some references to it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-culture\_(song) https://factoryrecords.org/factory-records/fac-133-new-order-sub-culture-single.php https://www.niagara.edu/neworder/singles/subculture.html https://newordertracks.wordpress.com/2016/08/25/subculture/ https://www.discogs.com/New-Order-Sub-Culture/master/40993

Of course, a lot of these may just be recycling the same story. I'm sure I did read something back in the early 90s though (i.e. pre-internet).

I've never truly believed this legend though (that Saville hated the mix). From what I've read about him, he was not someone who particularly cared much about New Order's music. I can't really imagine him taking the time to listen to a test pressing, let alone dismiss it (especially enough to refuse to do a sleeve, but to design the labels).

There was an interesting discussion about the sleeve on here a year or two ago, with 50poundnote hypothesising, IIRC, that the blank sleeve and the labels may have actually been the 'design'. This was a pretty cool theory and one I could get on board with.

However, that kind of goes against what Saville says in that Discogs link above where he says 'No, all I can presume is that one was not asked for.' (which is presumably your source for Saville not being asked). However, this may have been an off the cuff remark and, if faced with the actual artwork in front of him, he may well have said 'Oh - this one? Yeah, I designed it like this on purpose'.

Who knows, eh?

perspexorange wrote:

Debaser wrote:

As for the story about Saville hating the Subculture remix. What's the source?

Dunno about the source. It's again one of those things that was probably said in an article back in the day. ..

However, that kind of goes against what Saville says in that Discogs link above where he says 'No, all I can presume is that one was not asked for.' (which is presumably your source for Saville not being asked). However, this may have been an off the cuff remark...

Well Discogs isn't my direct source but the interview they refer to certainly is. I (and many of us?) watched it earlier this year as a sort of Lockdown special. He was specifically asked the question by Dave Haslam and he gave a specific answer.

Debaser wrote:

Well Discogs isn't my direct source but the interview they refer to certainly is. I (and many of us?) watched it earlier this year as a sort of Lockdown special. He was specifically asked the question by Dave Haslam and he gave a specific answer.

Thanks for this.

Just checked that interview and he says the following as regards not liking the remix:

"That's a degree of autonomy or freedom that I was not given. I was not free to choose. I could've said someone else could do it but I never had the authority to say there shouldn't be a sleeve. No, all I can presume is that one was not asked for."

So that pretty much scotches the rumour that he "hated the remix" and didn't design the sleeve for that reason.

However, I think the use of the word "presume" doesn't really confirm whether he was asked to design it or not. It's just his presumption, based on the fact that Haslam pointed out that he didn't do the sleeve. I got the feeling that he didn't properly remember the details of that particular project.

What is also odd is if, as he says, he 'presumes' that one wasn't asked for, why did they ask him to design the typography? That doesn't really make any sense. "Yeah, we'd like you to do the labels, but don't bother with a sleeve". Was it the band's intention to have a plain sleeve or get someone else to do it?

The Haslam interview continues:

Haslam: "I think maybe Rob Gretton wanted a kind of disco bag in the kind of (?) New York style." Saville: "Maybe he wanted it by the end of the month and he knew that if he asked me that was not going to happen."

Lots of speculation with the answers to this question. Nothing clear cut.

There's something we're missing here, in my opinion. Some reason for him doing the labels, but (seemingly) not doing the sleeve.

My theory has always, in the past, been 'lateness' (i.e. he was rushed during the project and only managed to get the labels done by the time of release). But since that NOO thread linked to above, I'm torn between my theory and 50poundnote's theory that the black sleeve is the design.

Maybe it's a combination of both. Maybe Saville wasn't ready, but was happy enough with the label design and thought 'OK, how about I just 'clothe' the record in a nice black sleeve that'll show off the nifty typography I've put on the labels'.

Subculture is also the only single never to have a vid made. I use that fact to break the ice at parties. I don't get invited to parties very often. I thought the very reason they chose Gillian was that She WASN'T a maestro and wouldn't try to take over. Like my dad, she was good for slotting in. If you think about it, and even if you don't, 'I got some bits in' is a fucking hilarious thing for a band member to say. 'So John, tell us about your new album, Sergeant Pepper.' - 'Er yes, hahaha! I got some bits in on one track. Er yes, hahaha! I did one second all by myself! Hahaha!'

perspexorange wrote:

Debaser wrote:

From what I've read about him, he was not someone who particularly cared much about New Order's music. I can't really imagine him taking the time to listen to a test pressing, let alone dismiss it

This is an important point. In 1993 there was a massive Select article and he said people think you listen to the music and choose an appropriate image, but it's not the case. Often they'd contact him cos they needed a sleeve and he'd just give them whatever he happened to be working on at the time. The classic example Is the leaf on Goo Face, which I though was inspired by the theme of time passing. It was actually inspired by a fucking leaf. As I said, the only source I know for the blank sleeve / snub story Is Paradise, so pinch of salt etc. Savile is their secret weapon! PS https://selectmagazinescans.monkeon.co.uk/?cat=1044

Rocket Mick is these forums' secret weapon!