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Now that people have started to receive the Power, Corruption & Lies box, what do we think will appear on Low-life?
Tracing paper sleeve Newly-mastered without pre-emphasis Let's Go (with original vocal) Sunrise (Instrumental Rough Mix) from the Discreet Campaigns compilation Full-length Elegia Pumped Full Of Drugs
The Perfect Kiss 12" Sub-culture 12"
I can't decide if the Shellshock 12" will be rolled into this or Brotherhood.
I’m not entirely sure what pre emphasis is
But yeah, all of the above. Has to be the tracing paper sleeve!
Would love a remastered TPK 12” . Shellshock is a funny one, it fell halfway between Low Life and Brotherhood and it’s hard to call which box it belongs with. I’d assume the box will be white .Can’t imagine it’d be black but maybe .
Pré emphasis is the reason why the sound of the original Factory CD is so low. Yes, Sunrise (Instrumental Rough Mix) should be the priority number one.
Fotz wrote: I’m not entirely sure what pre emphasis is
Something added during the mastering stage. The only CD without it was the Japanese disc.
Live take of The Perfect Kiss from the video shoot that was included on the bonus CD in Retro.
Crikey, Mr £50note! You're very keen! ![[:d]](/emoticons/biggrin.gif){kind=small}
Not that that's a problem, of course!
I'm going to need some time to think about possible contents, but the following are definite for me:
Design: Tracing paper sleeve for LP Tracing paper and 4 x inserts for CD
CDs: 'Let's Go' (Vocal Version - the original 'Waiting For So Long' version) 'Sunrise' (Instrumental Rough Mix) 'As It Is When It Was' (Demo) (which was recorded during the 'Low Life' era, but might be best to sit on 'Brotherhood' though)
DVDs: Haçienda footage from 'The Old Grey Whistle Test' 'Rock Around The Clock' Leuven 1985 from 'Rox Box' maybe even Barcelona 1984, from 'Estoc De Pop'
Additional: 3 x 12" - The Perfect Kiss, Sub-Culture & Shellshock
I think Shellshock fits better with this LP, and considering 'Brotherhood' could have anywhere between 4-6 singles with it (*), it might be best to ensure it is covered in the 'Low Life' box set.
* Depending if the 'Substance' era 12"s are included with the release of the 'Brotherhood' set ('State Of The Nation', 'Bizarre Love Triangle', 2 x 'True Faith', 'Touched By The Hand Of God' and, possibly, 'Blue Monday 1988'). Of course, if 'True Faith', 'Touched' and 'Blue Monday 1988' are included with the 'Substance' reissue, 'Shellshock' could just as easily be shifted to 'Brotherhood'.
As I mentioned on another thread I would love for full length Elegia on vinyl with let’s go on B side as an additional 12”. I know it’s not in keeping with the other box sets but it would be most appreciative if anyone with any influence is reading😷
I understand wanting it, but I don't like revisionist things like that in a "definitive" box: if it wasn't released as a 12" at the time, it shouldn't be now. That's the sort of thing that's better suited for a Record Store Day release. A one-sided 12" using the alternate band photos from the cassette edition of Low-life on the cover.
full length Elegia on vinyl with let’s go on B side as an additional 12”. Yeah, definitely gonna happen. I'm also looking forward to the Spice Girls reforming to perch naked on my park bench of choice. Tracing paper... The full-length Elegaia even though it's about as exciting as Skegness on half-closing day... Pumped Full of Drugs... Perfect Snog 12", Snog of Death, Perfect Pit. All four Subculture single versione plus Record Mirror take. Estoc the Cock is too wanchored in the PCL ethos for Low Life.
Fotz wrote: I’m not entirely sure what pre emphasis is
But yeah, all of the above. Has to be the tracing paper sleeve!
Would love a remastered TPK 12” . Shellshock is a funny one, it fell halfway between Low Life and Brotherhood and it’s hard to call which box it belongs with. I’d assume the box will be white .Can’t imagine it’d be black but maybe .
Another peculiar thing about including Shellshock is that State of the Nation was actually recorded months before it (in Japan, around the time of the release of Low-Life). But it would be odd to include State as its release was so close to that of Brotherhood.
... And it was included on some Brotherhood CDs, I think. As it is when it wanks would have to be Brotherhood, too. Some interesting demos with different lyrics around.
Michael Monkhouse wrote:
As it is when it wanks would have to be Brotherhood, too. Some interesting demos with different lyrics around.
Yeah, I know it fits on ‘Brotherhood’ but am sure it was recorded around the time of ‘Low Life’.
There’s a gig somewhere (from around May 1985, I think) where Bernard introduces it as ‘a song so new, it isn’t even on our new LP’ or similar.
Think the song was debuted live on 17/04/85.
Low-life with The Perfect Kiss and Subculture
Brotherhood with Shellshock, State Of The Nation, and Bizarre Love Triangle
Substance with True Faith, TF Remix, Touched By The Hand Of God, and Blue Monday '88
(Rolls Touched By The Hand Of God and Blue Monday '88 in on an extra CD, but preserves the track list of the original more or less)
Technique with Fine Time, FT Remix, Round & Round, Round & Remix, Run 2, World In Motion, and WIM Remix
(All the remaining remixes rolled in across 2 additional CDs)
50poundnote wrote: I understand wanting it, but I don't like revisionist things like that in a "definitive" box: if it wasn't released as a 12" at the time, it shouldn't be now. That's the sort of thing that's better suited for a Record Store Day release. A one-sided 12" using the alternate band photos from the cassette edition of Low-life on the cover.
Fair point. I guest he best place for it is a RSD special. Here’s to hoping.
BazG wrote: The Subculture sleeve though. Stick to the old? Disappointment all over again..
It would be nice if Saville came forward and said ‘oh, I did design a sleeve for it, but it wasn’t ready in time’ and they use that. Unlikely, but one can dream.
perspexorange wrote:
Leuven 1985 from 'Rox Box'
The more I think about, the more i think this shouldn’t be included. There is excellent quality footage of this gig out there in the wild already. Better to have something previously unseen included. Of corse, I wouldn’t complain at its inclusion. It is a brilliant gig, but I’m sure there are others of a similar quality from this period.
perspexorange wrote:
BazG wrote: The Subculture sleeve though. Stick to the old? Disappointment all over again..
It would be nice if Saville came forward and said ‘oh, I did design a sleeve for it, but it wasn’t ready in time’ and they use that. Unlikely, but one can dream.
Some people still think there's more to the story than Saville's version that he wasn't asked to do a sleeve? Ok. Some people have convinced themselves that the earth is flat. Jude Rogers of The Quietus thinks that the arrival of Gillian (who could barely play keyboards) had a huge affect on NO's sound. I can't force people to stick to the facts...
Yeah, I commented on that Gillian bit too. Bit of a generalisation. still, she's their secret weapon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The only ''authority'' I know for the blank Subculture sleeve is the Paradise fanzine. I like it though. Bernard is their secret weapon!
BazG wrote: The Subculture sleeve though. Stick to the old? Disappointment all over again..
why should they change it. they typography on the labels is cool enough.
leave things alone.
later -1
Debaser wrote:
perspexorange wrote:
BazG wrote: The Subculture sleeve though. Stick to the old? Disappointment all over again..
It would be nice if Saville came forward and said ‘oh, I did design a sleeve for it, but it wasn’t ready in time’ and they use that. Unlikely, but one can dream.
Some people still think there's more to the story than Saville's version that he wasn't asked to do a sleeve? Ok. Some people have convinced themselves that the earth is flat. Jude Rogers of The Quietus thinks that the arrival of Gillian (who could barely play keyboards) had a huge affect on NO's sound. I can't force people to stick to the facts...
Crikey. I only made reference to a 'pipe dream' that there might be a cover that was just too late to make the single release. I even commented that it was 'unlikely'.
I don't necessarily consider that there is a cover, but I don't necessarily believe the 'fact' that 'Saville wasn't asked to do one'. For a start, there's also the story that he heard the remix and thought it 'too shit' to do a cover for (although he presumably still designed the labels).
Saville's memory is probably fairly sketchy at best, especially 35 years after the fact. And I've lost count of the amount of times Saville, Wilson, Gretton, the band embellished facts in interviews on a whim.
I doubt we'll ever really know for definite what happened. Even if Steve covers this in his book, it's still his 'view' on what happened. Unless someone uncovers a letter between Saville and Gretton, stating the reason for the 'non-cover', we'll always have to speculate.
For what it's worth:
I don't believe there's a cover.
I think Gillian's input is significant (just because someone isn't proficient with an instrument, doesn't mean they're bereft of ideas. Hooky, by his own admission, is tone deaf. And let's face facts, Bernard ain't Johnny Marr is he? Yet they're both masters in their own right).
I also believe that the Earth is spherical, but am happy to proved wrong. ![[;)]](/emoticons/wink.gif){kind=small}
perspexorange wrote:
Debaser wrote:
perspexorange wrote:
BazG wrote: The Subculture sleeve though. Stick to the old? Disappointment all over again..
It would be nice if Saville came forward and said ‘oh, I did design a sleeve for it, but it wasn’t ready in time’ and they use that. Unlikely, but one can dream.
Some people still think there's more to the story than Saville's version that he wasn't asked to do a sleeve? Ok. Some people have convinced themselves that the earth is flat. Jude Rogers of The Quietus thinks that the arrival of Gillian (who could barely play keyboards) had a huge affect on NO's sound. I can't force people to stick to the facts...
Crikey. I only made reference to a 'pipe dream' that there might be a cover that was just too late to make the single release. I even commented that it was 'unlikely'.
I don't necessarily consider that there is a cover, but I don't necessarily believe the 'fact' that 'Saville wasn't asked to do one'. For a start, there's also the story that he heard the remix and thought it 'too shit' to do a cover for (although he presumably still designed the labels).
Saville's memory is probably fairly sketchy at best, especially 35 years after the fact. And I've lost count of the amount of times Saville, Wilson, Gretton, the band embellished facts in interviews on a whim.
I doubt we'll ever really know for definite what happened. Even if Steve covers this in his book, it's still his 'view' on what happened. Unless someone uncovers a letter between Saville and Gretton, stating the reason for the 'non-cover', we'll always have to speculate.
For what it's worth:
I don't believe there's a cover. I think Gillian's input is significant (just because someone isn't proficient with an instrument, doesn't mean they're bereft of ideas. Hooky, by his own admission, is tone deaf. And let's face facts, Bernard ain't Johnny Marr is he? Yet they're both masters in their own right). I also believe that the Earth is spherical, but am happy to proved wrong.
Ok my post was a bit arsy but I fear that when people offer up scenarios such as "there might be a sleeve but maybe it was done too late", they end up as some sort of semi-assumed fact or urban myth. Like the guy in the TPK video who supposedly represented Ian Curtis (nope).
So maybe my tone was a little strong in that last post. Nonetheless, I'm with Monkhouse on Gillian. Imagine if any one of us joined the three remaining members of JD and said: "right I'm going to be instrumental in changing their sound even though I'm a newbie with no experience". Nah! As she says in the interview "I got some of my bits in". Great, more power to you Gillian, but that's not quite the same as Jude's interpretation of things.
As for the story about Saville hating the Subculture remix. What's the source?
I’m fascinated to learn that they used pre emphasis On the original CD. I’ve been interested in CDs with preemphasis ever since discovering that the quake soundtrack also had it set. We don’t know whether that was by accident or not. CD players of the time should have corrected for it though. So why does it matter? (digital playback on CD-ROMs doesn’t usually apply the de emphasis curve properly, and many cd rippers don’t handle it)
Debaser wrote:
As for the story about Saville hating the Subculture remix. What's the source?
Dunno about the source. It's again one of those things that was probably said in an article back in the day.
It's something i remember reading years ago. Lost in the mists of time.
Some references to it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-culture\_(song) https://factoryrecords.org/factory-records/fac-133-new-order-sub-culture-single.php https://www.niagara.edu/neworder/singles/subculture.html https://newordertracks.wordpress.com/2016/08/25/subculture/ https://www.discogs.com/New-Order-Sub-Culture/master/40993
Of course, a lot of these may just be recycling the same story. I'm sure I did read something back in the early 90s though (i.e. pre-internet).
I've never truly believed this legend though (that Saville hated the mix). From what I've read about him, he was not someone who particularly cared much about New Order's music. I can't really imagine him taking the time to listen to a test pressing, let alone dismiss it (especially enough to refuse to do a sleeve, but to design the labels).
There was an interesting discussion about the sleeve on here a year or two ago, with 50poundnote hypothesising, IIRC, that the blank sleeve and the labels may have actually been the 'design'. This was a pretty cool theory and one I could get on board with.
However, that kind of goes against what Saville says in that Discogs link above where he says 'No, all I can presume is that one was not asked for.' (which is presumably your source for Saville not being asked). However, this may have been an off the cuff remark and, if faced with the actual artwork in front of him, he may well have said 'Oh - this one? Yeah, I designed it like this on purpose'.
Who knows, eh? ![[:)]](/emoticons/smile.gif){kind=small}
perspexorange wrote:
Debaser wrote:
As for the story about Saville hating the Subculture remix. What's the source?
Dunno about the source. It's again one of those things that was probably said in an article back in the day. ..
However, that kind of goes against what Saville says in that Discogs link above where he says 'No, all I can presume is that one was not asked for.' (which is presumably your source for Saville not being asked). However, this may have been an off the cuff remark...
Well Discogs isn't my direct source but the interview they refer to certainly is. I (and many of us?) watched it earlier this year as a sort of Lockdown special. He was specifically asked the question by Dave Haslam and he gave a specific answer.
Debaser wrote:
Well Discogs isn't my direct source but the interview they refer to certainly is. I (and many of us?) watched it earlier this year as a sort of Lockdown special. He was specifically asked the question by Dave Haslam and he gave a specific answer.
Thanks for this.
Just checked that interview and he says the following as regards not liking the remix:
"That's a degree of autonomy or freedom that I was not given. I was not free to choose. I could've said someone else could do it but I never had the authority to say there shouldn't be a sleeve. No, all I can presume is that one was not asked for."
So that pretty much scotches the rumour that he "hated the remix" and didn't design the sleeve for that reason.
However, I think the use of the word "presume" doesn't really confirm whether he was asked to design it or not. It's just his presumption, based on the fact that Haslam pointed out that he didn't do the sleeve. I got the feeling that he didn't properly remember the details of that particular project.
What is also odd is if, as he says, he 'presumes' that one wasn't asked for, why did they ask him to design the typography? That doesn't really make any sense. "Yeah, we'd like you to do the labels, but don't bother with a sleeve". Was it the band's intention to have a plain sleeve or get someone else to do it?
The Haslam interview continues:
Haslam: "I think maybe Rob Gretton wanted a kind of disco bag in the kind of (?) New York style." Saville: "Maybe he wanted it by the end of the month and he knew that if he asked me that was not going to happen."
Lots of speculation with the answers to this question. Nothing clear cut.
There's something we're missing here, in my opinion. Some reason for him doing the labels, but (seemingly) not doing the sleeve.
My theory has always, in the past, been 'lateness' (i.e. he was rushed during the project and only managed to get the labels done by the time of release). But since that NOO thread linked to above, I'm torn between my theory and 50poundnote's theory that the black sleeve is the design.
Maybe it's a combination of both. Maybe Saville wasn't ready, but was happy enough with the label design and thought 'OK, how about I just 'clothe' the record in a nice black sleeve that'll show off the nifty typography I've put on the labels'.
Subculture is also the only single never to have a vid made. I use that fact to break the ice at parties. I don't get invited to parties very often. I thought the very reason they chose Gillian was that She WASN'T a maestro and wouldn't try to take over. Like my dad, she was good for slotting in. If you think about it, and even if you don't, 'I got some bits in' is a fucking hilarious thing for a band member to say. 'So John, tell us about your new album, Sergeant Pepper.' - 'Er yes, hahaha! I got some bits in on one track. Er yes, hahaha! I did one second all by myself! Hahaha!'
perspexorange wrote:
Debaser wrote:
From what I've read about him, he was not someone who particularly cared much about New Order's music. I can't really imagine him taking the time to listen to a test pressing, let alone dismiss it
This is an important point. In 1993 there was a massive Select article and he said people think you listen to the music and choose an appropriate image, but it's not the case. Often they'd contact him cos they needed a sleeve and he'd just give them whatever he happened to be working on at the time. The classic example Is the leaf on Goo Face, which I though was inspired by the theme of time passing. It was actually inspired by a fucking leaf. As I said, the only source I know for the blank sleeve / snub story Is Paradise, so pinch of salt etc. Savile is their secret weapon! PS https://selectmagazinescans.monkeon.co.uk/?cat=1044
Does Skullcrusher fit on here? They were certainly playing it live around that time (with lyrics) and we know Let's Go (also on the Salvation! OST) dates back to 84/85 too and a studio version exists from the Lowlife sessions, wonder if they demo'ed Skullcrusher back then too?
Did the BBC film the whole of the (first) set at Hacienda,December 85? That Whistle Test thing. Has to be on the box if it exists.
Fotz wrote: Did the BBC film the whole of the (first) set at Hacienda,December 85? That Whistle Test thing. Has to be on the box if it exists.
Sadly, Johnny James confirmed that the BBC stopped filming part way through the third track. It’s a real shame because it looked like an awesome gig. That version of ‘Sunrise’ is one of my favourite live renditions.
Johnny James wrote:
perspexorange wrote: Thanks.
One I’d love to see is the complete gig from December 1985 (i.e. the one that was partly broadcast on The Old Grey Whistle Test).
Unfortunately the BBC stopped filmed part way through Face Up.
50poundnote wrote: Low-life with The Perfect Kiss and Subculture
Brotherhood with Shellshock, State Of The Nation, and Bizarre Love Triangle
Substance with True Faith, TF Remix, Touched By The Hand Of God, and Blue Monday '88
(Rolls Touched By The Hand Of God and Blue Monday '88 in on an extra CD, but preserves the track list of the original more or less)
Technique with Fine Time, FT Remix, Round & Round, Round & Remix, Run 2, World In Motion, and WIM Remix
(All the remaining remixes rolled in across 2 additional CDs)
If they follow the Collector's Edition bonus disc format, and are going to keep to 4 x 12" reissues alongside each box, it might be more like:
Low-Life: TPK / Sub-culture / Shellshock / State of the Nation (seems wrong I know) Brotherhood: BLT / True Faith / Touched by the Hand of God / Blue Monday 88 Technique: Fine Time / Round and Round / Run 2 / World in Motion
And then if they do Substance, they might bundle it with the remix 12"s: True Faith remix, Fine Time remix, R&R remix, World in Motion remix.
Some of those timeframes are jarringly wrong, but it reflects what they did before and would make it a neat set of releases.
M1 wrote:
50poundnote wrote: Low-life with The Perfect Kiss and Subculture
Brotherhood with Shellshock, State Of The Nation, and Bizarre Love Triangle
Substance with True Faith, TF Remix, Touched By The Hand Of God, and Blue Monday '88
(Rolls Touched By The Hand Of God and Blue Monday '88 in on an extra CD, but preserves the track list of the original more or less)
Technique with Fine Time, FT Remix, Round & Round, Round & Remix, Run 2, World In Motion, and WIM Remix
(All the remaining remixes rolled in across 2 additional CDs)
If they follow the Collector's Edition bonus disc format, and are going to keep to 4 x 12" reissues alongside each box, it might be more like:
Low-Life: TPK / Sub-culture / Shellshock / State of the Nation (seems wrong I know) Brotherhood: BLT / True Faith / Touched by the Hand of God / Blue Monday 88 Technique: Fine Time / Round and Round / Run 2 / World in Motion
And then if they do Substance, they might bundle it with the remix 12"s: True Faith remix, Fine Time remix, R&R remix, World in Motion remix.
Some of those timeframes are jarringly wrong, but it reflects what they did before and would make it a neat set of releases.
I know I'm jumping the gun here quite a bit, but let's add Republic to the list too! In my dream of dreams, we'd get a bonus disc of all the tracks pre-Barney. Not that I don't love the final product, but it would be fantastic to hear the original versions after all these years...
M1 wrote: Low-Life: TPK / Sub-culture / Shellshock / State of the Nation (seems wrong I know) Brotherhood: BLT / True Faith / Touched by the Hand of God / Blue Monday 88 Technique: Fine Time / Round and Round / Run 2 / World in Motion
And then if they do Substance, they might bundle it with the remix 12"s: True Faith remix, Fine Time remix, R&R remix, World in Motion remix.
Some of those timeframes are jarringly wrong, but it reflects what they did before and would make it a neat set of releases.
Nothing says they have to release 4 singles alongside each box, especially when it knocks the timeline out of whack.
Substance will surely be released between Brotherhood and Technique, where it belongs. It's just as much canon as any of the studio albums, and that's where these new single remasters will see a CD release.
50poundnote wrote:
M1 wrote: Low-Life: TPK / Sub-culture / Shellshock / State of the Nation (seems wrong I know) Brotherhood: BLT / True Faith / Touched by the Hand of God / Blue Monday 88 Technique: Fine Time / Round and Round / Run 2 / World in Motion
And then if they do Substance, they might bundle it with the remix 12"s: True Faith remix, Fine Time remix, R&R remix, World in Motion remix.
Some of those timeframes are jarringly wrong, but it reflects what they did before and would make it a neat set of releases.
Nothing says they have to release 4 singles alongside each box, especially when it knocks the timeline out of whack.
Substance will surely be released between Brotherhood and Technique, where it belongs. It's just as much canon as any of the studio albums, and that's where these new single remasters will see a CD release.
They didn't give Substance a reissue for the Collectors Editions, so they have form in not equating it with the studio albums. Fingers crossed it does get the deluxe treatment though. I wouldn't object if they retooled it to mop up the Factory era 12"s. Side E: Touched / BM98 / Fine Time; Side F: R&R / Run2 / WiM
I just hope it's not another 19 months until the 'Low-life' set gets released. One every six months please!
M1 wrote: ]They didn't give Substance a reissue for the Collectors Editions, so they have form in not equating it with the studio albums. Fingers crossed it does get the deluxe treatment though. I wouldn't object if they retooled it to mop up the Factory era 12"s. Side E: Touched / BM98 / Fine Time; Side F: R&R / Run2 / WiM
It's wonderful that we even have this to debate. :D
Just remembered when i stumbled across it again when looking through some files on my laptop.That 'unknown and fairly advanced synth and sequencer song that never made it' one .The info on the file which i got from somewhere a couple of years back dates it as September 1984.So around the time they would have been near to getting into the studio to record Low Life in Autumn that year.Be good if they have a better audio of that one or could clean up what exists and include it on a Low Life definitive box.The recording is around 11-12 minutes long and has some great ideas and melodies in places and that car screeching skidding noise they used on Perfect Kiss at gigs.First heard it a couple years ago when i obtained the file.Just a thought.
Fotz wrote: Just remembered when i stumbled across it again when looking through some files on my laptop.That 'unknown and fairly advanced synth and sequencer song that never made it' one .The info on the file which i got from somewhere a couple of years back dates it as September 1984.So around the time they would have been near to getting into the studio to record Low Life in Autumn that year.Be good if they have a better audio of that one or could clean up what exists and include it on a Low Life definitive box.The recording is around 11-12 minutes long and has some great ideas and melodies in places and that car screeching skidding noise they used on Perfect Kiss at gigs.First heard it a couple years ago when i obtained the file.Just a thought.
What's this track you're referring to here?
I'm guessing Fotz is referring to the 12 minute track that is sometimes included on 'rehearsals' bootlegs of the band.
It's been labelled as from a rehearsal dated 02/09/84 and there are other early versions of different songs from the same date, including 'Paradise', 'Love Vigilantes' and 'This Time Of Night'.
If you haven't heard it, just send me a PM and I'll wing it (and the rest of the rehearsals) over to you. Same goes for anyone else that wants to hear these.
Mr Discography wrote:
Fotz wrote: Just remembered when i stumbled across it again when looking through some files on my laptop.That 'unknown and fairly advanced synth and sequencer song that never made it' one .The info on the file which i got from somewhere a couple of years back dates it as September 1984.So around the time they would have been near to getting into the studio to record Low Life in Autumn that year.Be good if they have a better audio of that one or could clean up what exists and include it on a Low Life definitive box.The recording is around 11-12 minutes long and has some great ideas and melodies in places and that car screeching skidding noise they used on Perfect Kiss at gigs.First heard it a couple years ago when i obtained the file.Just a thought.
What's this track you're referring to here?
Send me a PM with an email adress and I can send it you via WeTransfer
50poundnote wrote:
M1 wrote: Low-Life: TPK / Sub-culture / Shellshock / State of the Nation (seems wrong I know) Brotherhood: BLT / True Faith / Touched by the Hand of God / Blue Monday 88 Technique: Fine Time / Round and Round / Run 2 / World in Motion
And then if they do Substance, they might bundle it with the remix 12"s: True Faith remix, Fine Time remix, R&R remix, World in Motion remix.
Some of those timeframes are jarringly wrong, but it reflects what they did before and would make it a neat set of releases.
Nothing says they have to release 4 singles alongside each box, especially when it knocks the timeline out of whack.
Substance will surely be released between Brotherhood and Technique, where it belongs. It's just as much canon as any of the studio albums, and that's where these new single remasters will see a CD release.
Steve said during the Q and A with Dave Haslam the other night that they were still wondering how to do Substance - with a possibility of expanding and updating it. He said though that it needs remastering so it looks like something will happen.
Ah, thanks DJ Rigby. I wasn't prepared to pay to watch an online book plug, but I did wonder if any good stuff came up, and if it would get mentioned here. I wonder if anyone recorded it.
[TWITTER]1323716249973641219[/TWITTER]
djrigby1969 wrote:
Steve said during the Q and A with Dave Haslam the other night that they were still wondering how to do Substance - with a possibility of expanding and updating it. He said though that it needs remastering so it looks like something will happen.
There’s presumably not a whole lot to do with ‘Substance’ in respect of remastering with most of the tracks being remastered anyway for the various 12”s. I guess the ‘new’ versions of Temptation and Confusion and the ‘exclusive’ edits (Hurt, TPK, SubCulture and Shellshock) will need to done.
Plus any tracks added to a possible expanded version.
Although I love ‘Substance’, as I’ve said before, I’m not sure it needs a full ‘Definitive’ set. Of course, I’d still buy one if released, but I just don’t really see what would be included on both the DVDs and the book that wouldn’t already have been included in a ‘Definitive’ ‘Brotherhood’ set.
Just an expanded, remastered set would do for me.
perspexorange wrote:
Although I love ‘Substance’, as I’ve said before, I’m not sure it needs a full ‘Definitive’ set.
Substance was the gateway drug for me, I don't think it needs any tinkering, its perfect as it is.
The PCL set was beautiful, and Bernard's Renegade mix of 'Be A Rebel' was sublime. Looking forward to the live DVD in April, but need something more to keep me motivated in early 2021... So, Mr James... When's the 'Low-life' definitive boxed-set due..?
Mr Discography wrote: The PCL set was beautiful, and Bernard's Renegade mix of 'Be A Rebel' was sublime. Looking forward to the live DVD in April, but need something more to keep me motivated in early 2021... So, Mr James... When's the 'Low-life' definitive boxed-set due..?
I could say that it's tentatively scheduled for Autumn, but that is so likely to shift. Who really knows.
Johnny James wrote:
Mr Discography wrote: The PCL set was beautiful, and Bernard's Renegade mix of 'Be A Rebel' was sublime. Looking forward to the live DVD in April, but need something more to keep me motivated in early 2021... So, Mr James... When's the 'Low-life' definitive boxed-set due..?
I could say that it's tentatively scheduled for Autumn, but that is so likely to shift. Who really knows.
Thanks for all your work on these sets. A question: The music on the Definitive Editions is available as official, paid downloads, but what about the tracks left off for reasons of space that were available and in consideration?
For years I've favored tangible CDs and records over downloads, but having started an account at Qobuz to buy lossless music otherwise unavailable, I have to admit - it's not that bad.
Have there been any discussions along those lines?
Fractured wrote:
Johnny James wrote:
Mr Discography wrote: The PCL set was beautiful, and Bernard's Renegade mix of 'Be A Rebel' was sublime. Looking forward to the live DVD in April, but need something more to keep me motivated in early 2021... So, Mr James... When's the 'Low-life' definitive boxed-set due..?
I could say that it's tentatively scheduled for Autumn, but that is so likely to shift. Who really knows.
Thanks for all your work on these sets. A question: The music on the Definitive Editions is available as official, paid downloads, but what about the tracks left off for reasons of space that were available and in consideration?
For years I've favored tangible CDs and records over downloads, but having started an account at Qobuz to buy lossless music otherwise unavailable, I have to admit - it's not that bad.
Have there been any discussions along those lines?
There appears to be much debate between concerned parties over what should/shouldn't be included in the sets. To add another layer of approval would probably delay the process.
Andy wrote:
There appears to be much debate between concerned parties over what should/shouldn't be included in the sets. To add another layer of approval would probably delay the process.
But I believe the delays were due to the limits of fitting material on the single CD of bonus tracks, thus keeping the sets within a certain production budget. By releasing everything via paid download sites there is no manufacturing cost involved.
If the Definitive box sets remain a matter of careful negotiation between all parties, perhaps that can't be changed. But since the music exists, and because releasing it for sale affords the band certain copyright protections, there is every advantage to making it available.
For example, for the Movement era, sell lossless versions of:
-Complete Western Works and Cargo demos (One mix of "Dreams Never End" was omitted).
-"Haystack" with Kevin Hewitt.
-All takes from the "Ceremony" sessions and leftover demos omitted from the Definitive edition.
-All sides/versions from the "Ceremony," "Procession," and "Everything's Gone Green" singles (To include both the trio and quartet recordings of "Ceremony," both mixes of "In a Lonely Place," 7" edits of both tracks, and 7" and 12" versions of "EGG" plus "Procession," "Cries and Whispers," and "Mesh").
-1981 Peel Session including any outtakes.
-Movement.
For Power, Corruption and Lies:
-All music recorded for The Hacienda ("Prime/Video 5-8-6," "Rocking Carol," "Ode to Joy").
-All three outtakes of "Temptation," the alternate 12" version on the Collector's Edition, and 7" and 12" versions of "Temptation," "Hurt," "Blue Monday," and The Beach."
-1982 Peel Session including all outtakes and rough mixes.
-Writing session recordings of "Thieves," "Murder," and "Blue Monday"
-Both instrumental outtakes of "B.M."
-"Blue Monday" multitracks (Currently floating around online - by including them the public is afforded a view into the band's creative process, the song is given pride of place, and new DJs have the component parts to do their own mixes), all demos/takes, and promo/video edit.
-All mixes of "Confusion."
-All three versions of "Song One" ("Thieves Like Us") unedited, all released versions of "Thieves," "Murder," and "Lonesome Tonight" including 7" edits, instrumentals, and the version of "Murder" with the count-in from the Collector's Edition.
-Power, Corruption and Lies.
Some of this material is available for lossless download already. By making it all available, the band can truly give an accurate picture of its creative evolution.
I like the idea, I'm just saying not everyone concerned probably shares the belief that there is value in releasing absolutely everything.
No band is going to release absolutely everything. Some things remain unheard for a reason, and the glut of material degrades the listening experience of a carefully curated box.
Andy wrote: I like the idea, I'm just saying not everyone concerned probably shares the belief that there is value in releasing absolutely everything.
Absolutely! But there's a track record of success for what I'm proposing, given what we've seen from archival releases from everyone from Iggy and the Stooges and The Monkees to Bob Dylan. The quality of New Order's music, and its historical importance, justify a complete collection - via lossless digital or physical media.
It's a beautiful journey, and every step is worth taking.
50poundnote wrote: No band is going to release absolutely everything. Some things remain unheard for a reason, and the glut of material degrades the listening experience of a carefully curated box.
And we still would have those curated collections in the various best of/singles releases, Retro, the Collector's Editions, and the Definitive Editions. But for those of us who want to hear the evolution of the material, and historians who want to understand how it is created, offer everything available.
Even if the band opted for issuing the stuff on compact disc, which would be my preference, we're not talking about all that much. For example, for Low-Life we're talking perhaps two CDs' worth of demos and rough mixes, as well as the "Sunrise" instrumental version and edit already released on compilations? Add another CD for all mixes/edits of "The Perfect Kiss" and "Sub-culture." The album itself is a fifth disc.
Imagine a similar amount of unreleased material for Brotherhood, plus a CD to collect all mixes of "Shellshock," "State of the Nation," and "BLT." The album becomes a fourth disc. If we factor in "Salvation," its known outtakes/demos, the alternate version of the title track previously released, and the edits/mixes of "Touched by the Hand of God," that's a fifth disc.
There are rough mixes of "Blue Monday 1988" known to exist. Add all of the available mixes and edits and you probably have a very full sixth CD.
With Technique imagine three CDs worth of sessions, roughs, and instrumentals, to include the demos/sessions sold on eBay. "Fine Time," "Round & Round," and "Run 2" (including the Warner Bros. tapes we've heard about) plus "The Happy One" and "Intermede Musical" No.s 1 - 6 could fit across two discs. The album becomes a sixth CD. Again, very feasible in physical form.
A wildcard: Do the recordings made for TV shows like "Making Out" (which inspired "Vanishing Point" and other material) and "World in Action" exist in the band's archive? Those are important pieces of the puzzle.
But at the very least, make it all available in lossless quality for purchase and download.
Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post Did the BBC film the whole of the (first) set at Hacienda,December 85? That Whistle Test thing. Has to be on the box if it exists.
Sadly, Johnny James confirmed that the BBC stopped filming part way through the third track. It’s a real shame because it looked like an awesome gig. That version of ‘Sunrise’ is one of my favourite live renditions.
Also, by far my favourite live version of 'As it is and when it was". Barney absolutely nails the crescendo near the end!
Huh? Most of those compilations were bollocks, especially Retro, which included World and Alan Wiseprick but not TLU. There's far too much material out there for a consistent box set. If you have that level of passion, you can find it all on YouTube.
Qif586 wrote:
Also, by far my favourite live version of 'As it is and when it was". Barney absolutely nails the crescendo near the end!
Yep - it's excellent.
I can't wait for this set. Here's hoping that we don't have to wait too long.
I appreciate the amount of work that goes into these sets and the fact that they don't want to release them too quickly (which could impact sales).
However, as far as I'm concerned, I'd be happy with a new set every week.
As I mentioned on another thread, Hooky recently stated that he'd unearthed an even longer version of 'Elegia'. I'm really hoping that makes the cut and appears on this set.
my wallet would appreciate if this came out next year, or maybe the year after that.
but its done whenever its done. better to have quality product than something rushed.
i would like a lot more demos and less live material though.
later -1
negative1 wrote:
i would like a lot more demos and less live material though.
later -1
Although I'm always keen to hear demos, I'm definitely the opposite to you. They can't put enough live video in these sets, as far as I'm concerned. The video included so far has been incredible. Hurrah's, Haçienda, Kilkenny and especially, Peppermint Lounge was just fantastic. A band in their prime.
As regards demos, I wonder just how much good quality usable stuff there is out there.
If it's as good as the demos on the 'Movement' set, bring it on. However, although I liked the 'writing sessions' included on 'PC&L' (and I was very glad they were on there), I thought they were much less interesting than the 'Movement' ones. Possibly due to the lack of vocals. I've listened to the 'Movement' ones numerous times, but far less so the 'PC&L' ones (although I like that LP better).
Similarly, we've heard quite a few demos of 'Technique'. Although these are interesting, they're mainly just the band noodling away. If the 'demo' material is mostly like this for the next few LPs, it might be difficult legitimately pulling together more than one disc's worth of stuff.
What I'm saying is, I'd be extremely happy with two or three discs of high quality, really interesting demos. But I'd be less likely to want to listen to the same number of discs if it was purely Hooky playing along to backing tracks, trying to come up with a bassline.
I think, in the case of demos (or, indeed, live material), quality must win out over quantity. I have faith in the compilers that they'll produce another brilliant set worthy of the band's legacy.
I'm definitely hoping that we get a version of 'Let's Go' on this set. Preferably a vocal version.
perspexorange wrote:
negative1 wrote:
i would like a lot more demos and less live material though.
later -1
Although I'm always keen to hear demos, I'm definitely the opposite to you. They can't put enough live video in these sets, as far as I'm concerned. The video included so far has been incredible. Hurrah's, Haçienda, Kilkenny and especially, Peppermint Lounge was just fantastic. A band in their prime.
As regards demos, I wonder just how much good quality usable stuff there is out there.
there's hundreds of bootlegs of live recordings, and plenty of soundboards too, so that's why, i could care less about live recorings, i can listen to tons of high quality ones already, and they're just taking up space in the sets.
sure, the videos are rare, but those are the one and done ones for me. i just rip the audio and listen to those if i want to hear them. watching them over and over is not something that i do.
If it's as good as the demos on the 'Movement' set, bring it on. However, although I liked the 'writing sessions' included on 'PC&L' (and I was very glad they were on there), I thought they were much less interesting than the 'Movement' ones. Possibly due to the lack of vocals. I've listened to the 'Movement' ones numerous times, but far less so the 'PC&L' ones (although I like that LP better).
Similarly, we've heard quite a few demos of 'Technique'. Although these are interesting, they're mainly just the band noodling away. If the 'demo' material is mostly like this for the next few LPs, it might be difficult legitimately pulling together more than one disc's worth of stuff.
What I'm saying is, I'd be extremely happy with two or three discs of high quality, really interesting demos. But I'd be less likely to want to listen to the same number of discs if it was purely Hooky playing along to backing tracks, trying to come up with a bassline.
I think, in the case of demos (or, indeed, live material), quality must win out over quantity. I have faith in the compilers that they'll produce another brilliant set worthy of the band's legacy.
I'm definitely hoping that we get a version of 'Let's Go' on this set. Preferably a vocal version.
well from what they've put there's no end to the amount of demos and sessions. the more the better.
later -1
negative1 wrote:
there's hundreds of bootlegs of live recordings...
Yep, but they're all different...
I know that can also be the case with demos, and I'm not arguing that we shouldn't hear these.
But if there are five different demos of 'Sub-Culture' out there, I don't think we desperately need to hear these if they're only marginally different. If they're very different, yeah, let's hear them. I think there's an argument that, if you put too much of the same stuff on a set, it runs the risk of becoming of less interest to a lot of people. In my opinion, it would just detract from the listening pleasure, wading through things too similar. Your mileage may vary, though.
Apart from taxonomy purposes (and I love a bit of that as much as anyone; see some of my posts ), I don't see much merit in having four versions of one track, with differences being things as minor as 'slightly louder guitar' or 'more echoey vocals'.
Unless substantially different, one or two demos of each track is fine by me.
It's not just demos though. Similarly, when they're filling up the DVDs with 'bonus video footage' (rather than complete gigs), I wouldn't expect that they'd include five different live versions of 'Sub-Culture', all from the 1985 tour. Although they'd likely be fairly different (given the band's penchant for 'improvisation'), it'd make for a fairly dull experience, listening to the same track over and over again.
negative1 wrote:
well from what they've put there's no end to the amount of demos and sessions. the more the better.
I can't imagine there's tonnes of 'quality' stuff out there, unless you know differently. I'd be very happy to be proved wrong though.
I agree with the Orange. A glut of similar demos wouldn't appeal to most people, and anyway, we've got bootlegs and YouTube for that. I have a Beatles bootleg featuring Cilla Black going through Step Outside Love with Paul's assistance again and again, followed by TWENTY ONE attempts at Cum and Get It. Fine for obsessives like me, but...
I also enjoy the demos pretty much. My guesses for the DVD(s) would be BBC's Saturday Live '84 and Leuven '85, the latter being recently "remastered" for official streaming on Amazon, no?
Mr. Disco wrote: I also enjoy the demos pretty much. My guesses for the DVD(s) would be BBC's Saturday Live '84 and Leuven '85, the latter being recently "remastered" for official streaming on Amazon, no?
Leuven has been remastered and is on Amazon? Wasn’t aware of that!
I enjoyed the demos on the Movement box immensely more than the ones on the PC&L box though the TLU ones are great.
Fotz wrote: Leuven has been remastered and is on Amazon? Wasn’t aware of that!
Check it out:
https://www.amazon.com/New-Order-Rox-Box/dp/B07YYQKVSR
Fotz wrote: I enjoyed the demos on the Movement box immensely more than the ones on the PC&L box though the TLU ones are great.
The Movement ones are way better indeed 👍
Mr. Disco wrote:
Fotz wrote: Leuven has been remastered and is on Amazon? Wasn’t aware of that!
Check it out:
Wow, never knew that.However, i have a feeling it's not available in UK? I have a one month free Amazon Prime right now but that link takes me to a page stating i'd have to have an American billing address for Stingray Qello or something.No entry for me.
It's not available on my region as well... but I'm pretty confident we'll have it in the Low-Life box
[Edit] I sincerely hope they don't put PFD there, just like they did with the 2nd Peel Session.
I may be in the minority here, but I’m kind of hoping for a different gig than Leuven.
It’s actually one of my absolute favourites, but I’ve seen it a lot (especially in recent months since appearing on Qello etc.).
So, I guess, I think I’d rather see a different gig. That being said, I wouldn’t be disappointed if it was included and would totally understand it’s inclusion. It’s a classic gig after all.
Fotz wrote:
Mr. Disco wrote:
Fotz wrote: Leuven has been remastered and is on Amazon? Wasn’t aware of that!
Check it out:
Wow, never knew that.However, i have a feeling it's not available in UK? I have a one month free Amazon Prime right now but that link takes me to a page stating i'd have to have an American billing address for Stingray Qello or something.No entry for me.
I was getting that too in the UK, but his link seems to take you to a Qello free trial sign-up page that accepts UK£
I sincerely hope they do include PFD on there, as as far as I can remember, its only been officially released on DVD in Japan and NZ/Aus. My DVD of it also has a crack in, and I don't fancy tracking down a 20 year old pop music DVD only released in three countries if I can help it.
Video material : Tokyo, Leuven, Rotterdam, Toronto. I do wish the whole of Stephen's single-camera camcorder archive would get uploaded to YT though, rather than one or two songs each as box set extras.
Audio : hopefully we can get the rough mix of "Sunrise", one of the "Perfect Kiss" rehearsals (I think the VHS/DVD, 12", and 2008 bonus disc have different takes on, if you listen to the ending), one of the longer Razormaid mixes of "Subculture" as its got different Hooky bass on, and tbh, lots of demos. I suspect "Lets Go" and "Skullcrusher" were also demo'ed at this time given that they were played live.
There's no mileage in listening to say, 17 different mixes of "Face Up" with different bass takes on. There's an 18 track GNR leak, with a 3 minute song, and 17 different versions of the guitar solo on. That's not interesting even if you like GNR.
markreed wrote: I do wish the whole of Stephen's single-camera camcorder archive would get uploaded to YT though, rather than one or two songs each as box set extras.
This. Totally. I couldn't agree more.
Even if the quality isn't the best on all the tracks, I'd still love to see them. Put the 'best' on the box sets. Put the 'rest' on YouTube, a few weeks after each set is released (so as not to impact sales).
markreed wrote:
Video material : Tokyo, Leuven, Rotterdam, Toronto. I do wish the whole of Stephen's single-camera camcorder archive would get uploaded to YT though, rather than one or two songs each as box set extras.
I'd love to see the full Toronto gig. That footage on the Glasgow DVD, and especially that TPK footage on YouTube is stunning.
markreed wrote: I suspect "Lets Go" and "Skullcrusher" were also demo'ed at this time given that they were played live.
I'm pretty sure 'Let's Go' was demoed as it was due to be on 'Low Life' before being substituted for The Perfect Kiss. I suspect that the 'Waiting For So Long' vocal version is from the 'Low Life' sessions.
markreed wrote:
There's no mileage in listening to say, 17 different mixes of "Face Up" with different bass takes on. There's an 18 track GNR leak, with a 3 minute song, and 17 different versions of the guitar solo on. That's not interesting even if you like GNR.
Again, I totally agree. Of course, the completist in me would like everything that's in the archive. However, realistically, the set has to be limited to a set number of discs. There's little to no point in filling these with a huge number of demos that are practically the same. If, indeed, a wealth of demo material exists, which I doubt.
Hopefully, though, there's at least one demo for each track on the LP, plus ones of any other appropriate tracks (Let's Go, Shellshock etc.).
perspexorange wrote:
markreed wrote: I do wish the whole of Stephen's single-camera camcorder archive would get uploaded to YT though, rather than one or two songs each as box set extras.
This. Totally. I couldn't agree more.
Even if the quality isn't the best on all the tracks, I'd still love to see them. Put the 'best' on the box sets. Put the 'rest' on YouTube, a few weeks after each set is released (so as not to impact sales).
markreed wrote:
Video material : Tokyo, Leuven, Rotterdam, Toronto. I do wish the whole of Stephen's single-camera camcorder archive would get uploaded to YT though, rather than one or two songs each as box set extras.
I'd love to see the full Toronto gig. That footage on the Glasgow DVD, and especially that TPK footage on YouTube is stunning.
markreed wrote: I suspect "Lets Go" and "Skullcrusher" were also demo'ed at this time given that they were played live.
I'm pretty sure 'Let's Go' was demoed as it was due to be on 'Low Life' before being substituted for The Perfect Kiss. I suspect that the 'Waiting For So Long' vocal version is from the 'Low Life' sessions.
markreed wrote:
There's no mileage in listening to say, 17 different mixes of "Face Up" with different bass takes on. There's an 18 track GNR leak, with a 3 minute song, and 17 different versions of the guitar solo on. That's not interesting even if you like GNR.
Again, I totally agree. Of course, the completist in me would like everything that's in the archive. However, realistically, the set has to be limited to a set number of discs. There's little to no point in filling these with a huge number of demos that are practically the same. If, indeed, a wealth of demo material exists, which I doubt.
Hopefully, though, there's at least one demo for each track on the LP, plus ones of any other appropriate tracks (Let's Go, Shellshock etc.).
It gets a bit tricky around "Shame Of The Nation" and the demo of "As It Is, When It Was" as both (technically) appear in some form on the Brotherhood CD, but were recorded for a provisional Japan-only EP around the time of the May 1985 tour. The A-side version of "State" is, I think, a complete re-recording from 1986. I tried putting Shame/State together in extended form, and the sonics are so different it was unlistenable.
markreed wrote:
It gets a bit tricky around "Shame Of The Nation" and the demo of "As It Is, When It Was" as both (technically) appear in some form on the Brotherhood CD, but were recorded for a provisional Japan-only EP around the time of the May 1985 tour. The A-side version of "State" is, I think, a complete re-recording from 1986. I tried putting Shame/State together in extended form, and the sonics are so different it was unlistenable.
Hmm, I have a vague memory of talking about this before with someone, but can't remember who I was talking to or what we determined. It was possibly on this forum or by email. Wish I could remember.
So, there were at least two tracks to be included on this EP ('AIIWIW' and 'Shame')? So 'Shame' was recorded at a different point to 'State'? Is there a demo lurking around of 'Shame'?
Any idea what the other tracks on the EP may have been ('Let's Go' possibly)?
Skullcrusher / Solitude is certainly from that era, live-wise at least (first played 31/03/84) Weirdo too (first played 16/07/85)
There's also Love Juice . First played live 23/05/85
Can you imagine how bad demo versions of State of the Nation and Shellshock must be compared to the woeful finished ones. Subculture-Shellshock-State were an unholy trinity of bad singles in a row.
The only thing that kept my faith was I had a tape of BLT live at Hemel Hampstead 85 so knew they must just being going through a spell of taking too many drugs and/or hanging out with John Robie and would be out of their system soon.
perspexorange wrote:
markreed wrote:
It gets a bit tricky around "Shame Of The Nation" and the demo of "As It Is, When It Was" as both (technically) appear in some form on the Brotherhood CD, but were recorded for a provisional Japan-only EP around the time of the May 1985 tour. The A-side version of "State" is, I think, a complete re-recording from 1986. I tried putting Shame/State together in extended form, and the sonics are so different it was unlistenable.
Hmm, I have a vague memory of talking about this before with someone, but can't remember who I was talking to or what we determined. It was possibly on this forum or by email. Wish I could remember.
So, there were at least two tracks to be included on this EP ('AIIWIW' and 'Shame')? So 'Shame' was recorded at a different point to 'State'? Is there a demo lurking around of 'Shame'?
Any idea what the other tracks on the EP may have been ('Let's Go' possibly)?
Skullcrusher / Solitude is certainly from that era, live-wise at least (first played 31/03/84) Weirdo too (first played 16/07/85)
There's also Love Juice
In the Hooky book he suggests that this recording session was "some point around Brotherhood" when they used a session in Japan to record the two songs, and to mix the Pumped Full Of Drugs soundtrack, with "State Of The Nation" (produced by New Order) being described only as a "newer version". Presumably they weren't happy with the recording of "Shame" produced by John Robie and relegated it to the B-side. I seem to remember hearing this early version of "As It Was" on a bootleg tape about 30 years but no idea where that is now.
Thanks for the info.
I must've read that at the time (when reading Hooky's book), but have since forgotten it.
I have the AIIWIW demo digitally, but it's a pretty poor recording. You're right - it must've been doing the rounds for 30+ years. Think I originally had it on an old cassette back in the day too.
To be fair, it's not much different from the Brotherhood version (as you'd expect, based on the style of the song).
perspexorange wrote: Thanks for the info.
I must've read that at the time (when reading Hooky's book), but have since forgotten it.
I have the AIIWIW demo digitally, but it's a pretty poor recording. You're right - it must've been doing the rounds for 30+ years. Think I originally had it on an old cassette back in the day too.
To be fair, it's not much different from the Brotherhood version (as you'd expect, based on the style of the song).
I just checked the inner sleeve of "State Of The Nation" - the A side appears to have been recorded in Japan in April 1985 and the B-side Shame recorded in London, Manchester and LA between October 1985-April 1986. Looks like they worked too hard on that song!
for once, i'm on the opposite site of the spectrum.
i loved the subculture mixes, stutter effects and all. and of course the 'truer' razormaid remixes, which elevated the album version for those that didn't want the fancy effects, disco beat, and soul vocalists (although a couple of the razormaid mixes did have a lady singing at the end).
and since there was no album on the horizon, we got both of the incredibly cool non-album tracks, of 'state of the nation', and 'shellshock'.
at this point, i couldn't recognize a saville cover instantly, or new order artwork, but as soon as i saw them, i knew i had to find out what they were (alex!), and of course they were new order. so they already had me at the artwork.
state of the nation was cool in its downbeat tone, and lyrics, and shellshock has a unique sound to it that no other group besides them could do, and of course both of them were extended beautifully. i didn't get the 7 inches for any of these until many years later.
so yeah, new order might have been in a decline for some people, and even for me, brotherhood was the last straw for their albums, after low-life was decent, so i guess it was foretelling the direction they were going to go in, at least to me.
later -1
When I first discovered New Order properly (through Substance), I really liked the remix of ‘Sub-Culture’. When I heard the ‘proper’ version on ‘Low Life’ I rapidly went off the remix. I don’t mind it now but it pales in comparison to the LP version.
‘State Of The Nation’ was one of only a handful of tracks I really disliked back in the day (alongside ‘Face Up’ and ‘Every Little Counts’). The years have been kind to all of those three tracks for me, and I like them all now (I will point out, I only ever had a problem with the LP version of ‘Face Up’; live versions always sound brilliant).
Shellshock, I’ve always loved.
As regards the woman wailing on the Razormaid remixes of Sub-Culture, that’s Deborah Iyall of the band Romeo Void.
They had a hit with the (rather good) ‘Never Say Never’ back in 1982.
Here's the only remix of Subculture worth anytime in your life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT-vfjAH1wM&ab\_channel=NoiseRecords
The e-e-e-e-edit! of the John Robie TIGHT! mix .... all those mixes are utter garbage. "Dubvulture" is the worst New Order b-side of the Factory years, chased up very tightly by "Shame Of The Nation" and "Shellcock", the common denominator between all three being John Robie.
I always find it laughable that when John Robie appears in NewOrderStory during his intro, he's clearly playing some new track he's very proud of because he's knows he's going to be on the New Order documentary ..... nobody would play a song they didn't think was any good... and the track is playing is boring.
markreed wrote: I sincerely hope they do include PFD on there, as as far as I can remember, its only been officially released on DVD in Japan and NZ/Aus. My DVD of it also has a crack in, and I don't fancy tracking down a 20 year old pop music DVD only released in three countries if I can help it.
Video material : Tokyo, Leuven, Rotterdam, Toronto. I do wish the whole of Stephen's single-camera camcorder archive would get uploaded to YT though, rather than one or two songs each as box set extras.
Audio : hopefully we can get the rough mix of "Sunrise", one of the "Perfect Kiss" rehearsals (I think the VHS/DVD, 12", and 2008 bonus disc have different takes on, if you listen to the ending), one of the longer Razormaid mixes of "Subculture" as its got different Hooky bass on, and tbh, lots of demos. I suspect "Lets Go" and "Skullcrusher" were also demo'ed at this time given that they were played live.
There's no mileage in listening to say, 17 different mixes of "Face Up" with different bass takes on. There's an 18 track GNR leak, with a 3 minute song, and 17 different versions of the guitar solo on. That's not interesting even if you like GNR.
I would speculate that the previous night at the same venue may have also been documented as a practice run/dress rehearsal for the video production. Can anyone confirm this?
Audio of the 3 tracks omitted from the PFD video: Dime
Here’s an interesting thing about PFD.
Did you know that the DVD version is a slightly different video mix to the VHS? There are certain bits we here different camera angles are used. I can’t remember where exactly, but they’re definitely subtly different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgAajOf4YSM One of the funniest moments of my life was a 'Best Of NO' review saying, 'If you can tell between R+R 94 and the original, you need to get out more.' Because I could and did. But those days are over. Only the Beatles, the Sex Pistols and the Spice Girls deserve my brain cell.
perspexorange wrote: Here’s an interesting thing about PFD.
Did you know that the DVD version is a slightly different video mix to the VHS? There are certain bits we here different camera angles are used. I can’t remember where exactly, but they’re definitely subtly different.
I have the DVD from Japan, but my VHS copy, and a means of playing it, are long gone.
...and "interesting" is subjective (heresy to a collector, I know).
It would be brilliant if any live footage for the DVD's could be cleaned up using AI and upscaled to (at least) 1080p and 60fps, the video's on Youtube where this has been done (for the odd song here and there) look amazing!!
I don't have a clue how much time this would take or how much it would cost - so may be prohibitive... Am very grateful for all the time and effort that has been put into the boxsets already...
Andy wrote:
...and "interesting" is subjective (heresy to a collector, I know).
I dunno guys. I come here to talk a bit of New Order (weird eh?) and it seems that this is getting up people's noses a bit.
Sorry I spoke...
perspexorange wrote:
Andy wrote:
...and "interesting" is subjective (heresy to a collector, I know).
I dunno guys. I come here to talk a bit of New Order (weird eh?) and it seems that this is getting up people's noses a bit.
Sorry I spoke...
well until someone checks we won't know.
i'm still getting vhs, dvds, and many other items right now, so it's all relevant to me , if there are differences, and they will show up.
later -1
My VHS is also gone. All I have is the DVD, so its hard to spot any differences throughout the gig, but that intro most certainly wasn't on the original tape:
perspexorange wrote:
Andy wrote:
...and "interesting" is subjective (heresy to a collector, I know).
I dunno guys. I come here to talk a bit of New Order (weird eh?) and it seems that this is getting up people's noses a bit.
Sorry I spoke...
Yikes! Not sure why you took that comment so hard. Where should I send the flowers?
“Interesting is subjective” seems to me to be saying “this isn't interesting, it’s boring and of no interest to me and/or possibly others”.
Unless I’m mistaken.
As we're a little way into 2021 now, I'm wondering if there's any gossip about the 'Low-life' definitive edition. Is it being worked on? Any tentative release date or other info?
Just listened to Jack's weekly chat and Hooky mentioned that he'd been asked to record the interview that accompanies the box set, no mention of when it will be released but sounding promising!
Hey, Johnny James, what's the over/under on this getting announced around the time EEE is released?
50poundnote wrote: Hey, Johnny James, what's the over/under on this getting announced around the time EEE is released?
It's not going to be announced any time soon.
Johnny James wrote: It's not going to be announced any time soon.
That's a real shame. I was hoping the release frequency would increase as each one came out. Looking back, I think 'Movement' was announced about 4 months before it came out in April 2019, and 'PCL' just two months before its October 2020 release. So on past form, we're looking at 2-4 months between the announcement of the next one and its release. If 'Low-life' won't be announced soon, guess it'll not come out until 2022 now - or late 2021 at the very earliest if we're lucky.
Purely speculative on my part, but assuming the 18 months between the first two becomes the norm for the subsequent releases, we're looking at a very long term campaign to get to the end of these definitive editions - potentially as long as another ten years.
I see three likely schedules:
Studio albums only:
Studio albums + Substance in original chronological release order (the albums and order I hope they come out in):
Studio albums + Substance at end of the campaign:
This does make me wonder if the campaign will make it past Technique, in reality. Only time will tell, I guess...
Keep up the great work regardless, Johnny!
Yeah, it all falls apart after Technique or even Brotherhood: Peel Sessions BBC Radio 1 Live In Concert Best Of Rest Of I honestly lost track after that. Mojo 327 mentioned LowLife for 2021 but (a) they qualified it as a 'rumour' and (b) they're fucking Mojo.
Johnny James wrote:
It's not going to be announced any time soon.
Any news or hints yet on when the 'Low-life' definitive edition may be released? I guess even if a tracklisting has been agreed, the current vinyl shortages could still delay its release by anything up to a year, even if it's announced in the near future.
Mr Discography wrote:
Johnny James wrote:
It's not going to be announced any time soon.
Any news or hints yet on when the 'Low-life' definitive edition may be released? I guess even if a tracklisting has been agreed, the current vinyl shortages could still delay its release by anything up to a year, even if it's announced in the near future.
I'm sure we'll get back onto it early in 2022. Warners block book with their manufacturers which means they can prioritise whatever they want into those bookings, so there's no reason why a release in 2022 isn't possible, if it's ready.
Johnny James wrote: I'm sure we'll get back onto it early in 2022. Warners block book with their manufacturers which means they can prioritise whatever they want into those bookings, so there's no reason why a release in 2022 isn't possible, if it's ready.
But is it ready?
^ Not a peep as far as I'm aware. If I recall, the announcement/press release ahead of the Movement one was 4 months. Can't remember how many months ahead the PCL one was, was it a bit shorter at 2 months or something?
Only clue I've found whilst Googling it is this vinyl test pressing of the album from last year on Discogs.
Only other significant search result is this forum thread!
Mr Discography wrote: Only clue I've found whilst Googling it is this vinyl test pressing of the album from last year on Discogs.
Never really understood the appeal of collecting white labels - but someone bought this for £195?!
You have to assume that it's the same Frank Arkwright remaster from 2015 too - so not even a different master source
GotBlueEyes wrote:
Mr Discography wrote: Only clue I've found whilst Googling it is this vinyl test pressing of the album from last year on Discogs.
Never really understood the appeal of collecting white labels - but someone bought this for £195?!
You have to assume that it's the same Frank Arkwright remaster from 2015 too - so not even a different master source
Given it sold on 5 March and my post about it was on 4 March, it's probably fairly safe to assume someone bought it after reading about it in this thread. There's certainly some dedicated/crazy (delete as appropriate) collectors out there...!
Mr Discography wrote:
GotBlueEyes wrote:
Mr Discography wrote: Only clue I've found whilst Googling it is this vinyl test pressing of the album from last year on Discogs.
Never really understood the appeal of collecting white labels - but someone bought this for £195?!
You have to assume that it's the same Frank Arkwright remaster from 2015 too - so not even a different master source
Given it sold on 5 March and my post about it was on 4 March, it's probably fairly safe to assume someone bought it after reading about it in this thread. There's certainly some dedicated/crazy (delete as appropriate) collectors out there...!
hey, i resemble that remark.
of course, its nice to have 1 offs, or early/proto versions of albums, if you can afford it, or want it bad enough.
at some point, collecting the regular releases is just boring, and if you have the promos, the next level is test pressings and acetates.
but i haven't gotten past the promo point, i do have some white labels though.
later -1
Acetates, test pressings and white labels are the grails at the highest end of the NO collectors market.
Most of these collectors have practically everything else, so fighting over these is the final flex. I've traded with most of them before but don't buy into these much.
I landed a rare NO acetate in the early days of eBay and have been offered some large amounts for it since. Back then you could get them for less than a hundred bucks. Now they're often in the thousands. Kicking myself for not loading up, of course.
Also kicking myself for not buying more than two copies of the US Technique Tourbook at a promoter's house, mid-90s. He had a huge stack of them in mint condition; I'm talking hundreds of copies for $5 each. Kind of a surreal find in Perth, AU.
Is this box even still going to happen? Or has it been cancelled??? Would be nice to know either way.
Fotz wrote: Is this box even still going to happen? Or has it been cancelled??? Would be nice to know either way.
I'd like to know too. I hope it's still on the cards.
If anyone knows the status of the Joy Division live box set too, that would be helpful.
My lowlife an£ brotherhood albums are the ones in the poorest condition so I was really hoping these would get the deluxe box set edition. If they don’t hurry up we will be too old to enjoy them!
C’mon, Johnny James.
Tell us that the greatest band ever hasn’t deserted us.
That there’s a box set, complete with tracing paper sleeve, a full-length ‘Elegia’, a vocal version of ‘Let’s Go’ and two DVDs crammed with haphazardly brilliant live performances.
Just a sign. So we don’t all give up.
It'll be a single DVD this time. We had a lot of material for PCL, and this isn't the case for the rest.
It's still coming along, we might make it for 2022, but I can't guarantee that it won't slip into early next year.
Thanks Johnny!
Great to know it's still ticking along!
No worries on the single DVD. I'm sure whatever you put on there will be excellent.
Seriously I very rarely post on here, but I’ve experienced a load of death this year and if New Order want to recoup some profit on this stuff, get it out before your customers die. Stop fannying around!
EmileStrunz wrote: Seriously I very rarely post on here, but I’ve experienced a load of death this year and if New Order want to recoup some profit on this stuff, get it out before your customers die. Stop fannying around!
Me too - this year has been brutal. I'm sorry for your losses. I hope you're doing ok.
Johnny James wrote: We're currently on course for THIS year.
It must be pretty annoying to be pestered all the time but I guess you know we fans can't help ourselves. Thanks for checking in :)
Johnny James wrote: We're currently on course for THIS year.
Thanks Johnny. Good news!
I echo Jonathan's sentiments. Really appreciate you checking these forums and letting us know.
Jonathan wrote:
EmileStrunz wrote: Seriously I very rarely post on here, but I’ve experienced a load of death this year and if New Order want to recoup some profit on this stuff, get it out before your customers die. Stop fannying around!
Me too - this year has been brutal. I'm sorry for your losses. I hope you're doing ok.
Johnny James wrote: We're currently on course for THIS year.
It must be pretty annoying to be pestered all the time but I guess you know we fans can't help ourselves. Thanks for checking in :)
Cheers. And thanks Johnny for responding.
Sometimes it’s only music that gets you through
Lost a couple of friends suddenly and young recently. The cat popping his cloggs last week was the last straw!!
Johnny James wrote: We're currently on course for THIS year.
This won’t even happen NEXT year! (2023) 🙈
![[smoking]](/emoticons/smoker.gif){kind=small}
😈
Johnny James wrote: It's off to production now. 2022 still on course.
That's great news Johnny - will give me something to look forward to when the summer holiday is over and it gets darker and colder towards the end of the year.
Any idea how long it'll be until its release and tracklist are announced?
Mr Discography wrote:
Johnny James wrote: It's off to production now. 2022 still on course.
That's great news Johnny - will give me something to look forward to when the summer holiday is over and it gets darker and colder towards the end of the year.
Any idea how long it'll be until its release and tracklist are announced?
No idea, but probably pretty soon.
Johnny James wrote: It's off to production now. 2022 still on course.
Fingers crossed there's no global vellum shortage atm ;)
Great news.
Can we expect a white box or a grey/silver? Could go either way.High hopes for a great remastered 12" TPK.Would Shellshock fall in with the Low Life era or the Brotherhood era? It was halfway between so neither really , though i'd say if it has to be in with one box at a push i'd say the Low Life box but it's a tough one.Maybe it won't feature on either of them.No great loss for me as i've never been a massive fan of the song (ducks for cover).
Fotz wrote: Can we expect a white box or a grey/silver? Could go either way.
Hadn't thought about the box colours for each set. Assuming it gets a release, I guess white will be reserved for Substance.
The two sets so far have been pastel shades. Assuming it'll be a different colour for each of the definitive editions, could be something like:
We're certainly a long way from all these sets coming out, but kind of fun to speculate.
Fotz wrote: Would Shellshock fall in with the Low Life era or the Brotherhood era? It was halfway between so neither really , though i'd say if it has to be in with one box at a push i'd say the Low Life box but it's a tough one.Maybe it won't feature on either of them.No great loss for me as i've never been a massive fan of the song (ducks for cover).
Shellshock is my favourite New Order song - has been since I first heard it in 1988 when I bought Substance. If the Collector's Editions are anything to go by, Shellshock will be included with the Low-Life Definitive Edition 12 inches. Hoping we finally get a digital release of the full 9:42 12" version.
I’m also a big fan of Shellshock (the Pretty In Pink soundtrack version being my favourite).
In my opinion, it fits more on LowLife, but I’m more than happy for it to be picked up on Brotherhood.
I’m just happy that we’re talking about the next set. Great news.
Fingers crossed that we get an official release of the fantastic ‘original’ vocal version of ‘Let’s Go’.
perspexorange wrote: I’m also a big fan of Shellshock (the Pretty In Pink soundtrack version being my favourite).
I'll be chuffed to get a remastered digital release of the full 9:42 full 12", but the Substance edit has always been my favourite version - it's missing the extra verse heard on the Pretty In Pink/12" versions, but I never liked the fade-out of the Pretty In Pink mix, and feel the 12" drags on a bit by the end. Substance edit is the ideal length and version for me.
I don't know what it is or was about Shellshock for me.Maybe i just got off to a bad start with it by first hearing the 7" on the radio just before its release, i found it limp with poor lyrics ('You call me on the phone..' blah blah) and i didn't like Bernard's vocal.Thing is, you could say the lyrics to say, Confusion were no better but the lyrics and melody to Shellshock never did much for me.I do like some of the sounds and beats on the 12" version though, some of it is indeed fun, funky and playful and the dub version Shellcock is quite bonkers with even a guitar solo right at the end! But the song was never anywhere near up there with monumental classics like AoC, YSF,BM, TLU, TPK, BLT etc.Oh well.
Fotz wrote: Great news.
Can we expect a white box or a grey/silver? Could go either way.High hopes for a great remastered 12" TPK.Would Shellshock fall in with the Low Life era or the Brotherhood era? It was halfway between so neither really , though i'd say if it has to be in with one box at a push i'd say the Low Life box but it's a tough one.Maybe it won't feature on either of them.No great loss for me as i've never been a massive fan of the song (ducks for cover).
Shellshock is a bit of a tricky one regarding the eras. It was released nearer to Brotherhood yet it's followup, State of the Nation was recorded before Low-Life was released.
I suspect is it will be included with the Low-Life set and State/Shame will feature on the Brotherhood set along with Touched by the Hand of God and the Salvation! tracks. But then where does that put Let's Go?
I guess Let’s Go can be dealt with in both box sets. LowLife for the vocal version as, from all accounts, it was originally meant to be on that LP.
Then Brotherhood can pick up the Salvation tracks (if, indeed, it’s decided to include these, which I guess is not a certainty).
Alternatively, if Substance is done as a box set, Salvation tracks could be included as bonuses on that, I guess. Along with TF and TBTHOG 12”s.
perspexorange wrote: I guess Let’s Go can be dealt with in both box sets. LowLife for the vocal version as, from all accounts, it was originally meant to be on that LP.
Then Brotherhood can pick up the Salvation tracks (if, indeed, it’s decided to include these, which I guess is not a certainty).
Alternatively, if Substance is done as a box set, Salvation tracks could be included as bonuses on that, I guess. Along with TF and TBTHOG 12”s.
I can't really see Substance getting the box set treatment. Only if physical media sales somehow tick up could I see how even a remastered/deluxe edition would be worthwhile. There wouldn't be as much of a production expense but I think the Definitive Editions are making it redundant.
Andy wrote:
perspexorange wrote: I guess Let’s Go can be dealt with in both box sets. LowLife for the vocal version as, from all accounts, it was originally meant to be on that LP.
Then Brotherhood can pick up the Salvation tracks (if, indeed, it’s decided to include these, which I guess is not a certainty).
Alternatively, if Substance is done as a box set, Salvation tracks could be included as bonuses on that, I guess. Along with TF and TBTHOG 12”s.
I can't really see Substance getting the box set treatment. Only if physical media sales somehow tick up could I see how even a remastered/deluxe edition would be worthwhile. There wouldn't be as much of a production expense but I think the Definitive Editions are making it redundant.
I do agree that Substance probably doesn’t need a proper ‘definitive’ box. A simple remastered and slightly expanded version would do me.
But if they did do a ‘definitive’ edition, it could pick up Salvation etc.
For those who don't know, there's a CD version of Shellshock (9'40) here :
https://www.discogs.com/fr/master/394344-Blank-Jones-So80s-Soeighties-6
Andy wrote: I can't really see Substance getting the box set treatment. Only if physical media sales somehow tick up could I see how even a remastered/deluxe edition would be worthwhile. There wouldn't be as much of a production expense but I think the Definitive Editions are making it redundant.
How can you say that when the remastered 12" single tracks have not been included in the boxes, only released concurrently on new 12" pressings?
Substance needs a definitive box set.
Jcp7 wrote: For those who don't know, there's a CD version of Shellshock (9'40) here :
https://www.discogs.com/fr/master/394344-Blank-Jones-So80s-Soeighties-6
I knew of that, but didn't want to buy the whole compilation for that one track when I knew there'd be remastered, lossless digital downloads of the 12" on the way sometime soon.
50poundnote wrote:
Andy wrote: I can't really see Substance getting the box set treatment. Only if physical media sales somehow tick up could I see how even a remastered/deluxe edition would be worthwhile. There wouldn't be as much of a production expense but I think the Definitive Editions are making it redundant.
How can you say that when the remastered 12" single tracks have not been included in the boxes, only released concurrently on new 12" pressings?
Substance needs a definitive box set.
It's been said before, but I think it essentially needs a remastered set (perhaps at a lower price point than the main definitive editions) including:
Double vinyl mirroring the original 1987 Substance LP
3 x CDs with the same 28 tracks as the original double cassette from 1987. Only difference should be the full 12" version of 'The Perfect Kiss' on the CD, as the truncated one added nothing to the original release, and the full version was always on the vinyl edition even in 1987. All other re-recordings (Temptation and Confusion) and edits unique to Substance (Subculture, Shellshock, Hurt) should be kept, as they were decent edits shortening what were very long 12" versions, and made Substance what it is. Any more mucking about with tracklistings of the core album, and it'll cease to be Substance.
Not averse to a fourth bonus CD with a few other rarities as an addition to the remastered core Substance.
Also accompany it with digital releases of all the seven inches, including B-sides - as a companion to all the digital.12 inches that have been put out.
50poundnote wrote:
Andy wrote: I can't really see Substance getting the box set treatment. Only if physical media sales somehow tick up could I see how even a remastered/deluxe edition would be worthwhile. There wouldn't be as much of a production expense but I think the Definitive Editions are making it redundant.
How can you say that when the remastered 12" single tracks have not been included in the boxes, only released concurrently on new 12" pressings?
Substance needs a definitive box set.
Was thinking between the Collector's Editions, Definitive Editions and Recycle (wink, wink) that everything that would end up on a Substance set will have been covered.
I'm not saying I wouldn't buy a freshly remastered Substance box, just that commercially it might not be worthwhile to bring to market.
Mr Discography wrote:
50poundnote wrote:
Andy wrote: I can't really see Substance getting the box set treatment. Only if physical media sales somehow tick up could I see how even a remastered/deluxe edition would be worthwhile. There wouldn't be as much of a production expense but I think the Definitive Editions are making it redundant.
How can you say that when the remastered 12" single tracks have not been included in the boxes, only released concurrently on new 12" pressings?
Substance needs a definitive box set.
It's been said before, but I think it essentially needs a remastered set (perhaps at a lower price point than the main definitive editions) including:
Double vinyl mirroring the original 1987 Substance LP
3 x CDs with the same 28 tracks as the original double cassette from 1987. Only difference should be the full 12" version of 'The Perfect Kiss' on the CD, as the truncated one added nothing to the original release, and the full version was always on the vinyl edition even in 1987. All other re-recordings (Temptation and Confusion) and edits unique to Substance (Subculture, Shellshock, Hurt) should be kept, as they were decent edits shortening what were very long 12" versions, and made Substance what it is. Any more mucking about with tracklistings of the core album, and it'll cease to be Substance.
Not averse to a fourth bonus CD with a few other rarities as an addition to the remastered core Substance.
Also accompany it with digital releases of all the seven inches, including B-sides - as a companion to all the digital.12 inches that have been put out.
Agreed. A Collector's Edition with bonus disc seems more viable than going the full on Definitive Edtion box route. They can take my money either way, though.
Andy wrote:
50poundnote wrote:
Andy wrote: I can't really see Substance getting the box set treatment. Only if physical media sales somehow tick up could I see how even a remastered/deluxe edition would be worthwhile. There wouldn't be as much of a production expense but I think the Definitive Editions are making it redundant.
How can you say that when the remastered 12" single tracks have not been included in the boxes, only released concurrently on new 12" pressings?
Substance needs a definitive box set.
Was thinking between the Collector's Editions, Definitive Editions and Recycle (wink, wink) that everything that would end up on a Substance set will have been covered.
I'm not saying I wouldn't buy a freshly remastered Substance box, just that commercially it might not be worthwhile to bring to market.
Yeah, it's a tricky call for the band. On paper, it's just a compilation, but to us fans it's much more than that: first time those classic 12 inches were ever on CD; songs that never featured on any albums in their Substance form; and many people's introduction to the band. It's been my favourite album by any artist for 35 years, despite the "compilation" status.
Maybe they just need a more straightforward remaster and release outside the "definitive editions" series on two separate formats:
I'd certainly buy both formats, but other fans could pick and choose which version they buy.
Jcp7 wrote: Does Sputnik and Skullkrusher really deserve to be remastered? 😈
Possibly not their best work, but still pretty decent, IMHO.
I've long suspected that 'Sputnik' is actually part of the same piece of music as the 'Salvation Theme'; just different bits of a longer, atmospheric piece of music, that were separated out for release. Think 'Peter Saville Soundtrack' type thing.
Not sure when or why I started to think this way. I may have came to the conclusion possibly after watching the film, which might segue between the two tracks. I'm struggling to remember and I don't really want to watch the film again to check . Possibly it's just due to the fact that the demos that are out there sometimes suse both names for the same track ('Salvation', with no 'Sputnik' demo available, afaik).
I admit though that this is pure speculation on my part. I'm probably wrong. Still, it would be nice to think of a longer piece out there, which might get a release at some point.
As regards 'Skullcrusher', I quite like the piece (more so than 'Sputnik', which is nice but feels a bit pointless, IMHO). Considering it made it's first live appearance in 1984 (three years before 'Salvation'), it's possible that a studio version of this track might've been attempted around Low Life. So, I guess, there's a slight possibility that something Skullcrushery could turn up on this next set.
Hey, who knows? Maybe there's a studio version of 'Love Juice' out there?
I know Johnny James probably wants to (understandably) stay tight-lipped regarding the contents of the Low Life set until officially announced. However, if he could shed light on when studio versions of the Salvation tracks were attempted, that'd be interesting. Also, if he has any info about whether 'Sputnik'/'Salvation' were from a longer bit of music etc?
FYI we do have an issue with the Salvation masters. There's one reel in the library and stuff is missing from it. You can tell from what appeared on the Collector's Editions that what is there isn't quite the right mixes. Let's Go had to be patched from a CD.
I do have a lead on where we might find them, though I can't say at this stage what might appear on Brotherhood.
perspexorange wrote:
Jcp7 wrote: Does Sputnik and Skullkrusher really deserve to be remastered? 😈
Possibly not their best work, but still pretty decent, IMHO.
I've long suspected that 'Sputnik' is actually part of the same piece of music as the 'Salvation Theme'; just different bits of a longer, atmospheric piece of music, that were separated out for release. Think 'Peter Saville Soundtrack' type thing. Not sure when or why I started to think this way. I may have came to the conclusion possibly after watching the film, which might segue between the two tracks. I'm struggling to remember and I don't really want to watch the film again to check
I admit though that this is pure speculation on my part. I'm probably wrong. Still, it would be nice to think of a longer piece out there, which might get a release at some point.
As regards 'Skullcrusher', I quite like the piece (more so than 'Sputnik', which is nice but feels a bit pointless, IMHO). Considering it made it's first live appearance in 1984 (three years before 'Salvation'), it's possible that a studio version of this track might've been attempted around Low Life. So, I guess, there's a slight possibility that something Skullcrushery could turn up on this next set.
Hey, who knows? Maybe there's a studio version of 'Love Juice' out there?
I know Johnny James probably wants to (understandably) stay tight-lipped regarding the contents of the Low Life set until officially announced. However, if he could shed light on when studio versions of the Salvation tracks were attempted, that'd be interesting. Also, if he has any info about whether 'Sputnik'/'Salvation' were from a longer bit of music etc?
Here's some more speculation: I've always understood that New Order submitted music for Pretty in Pink that was soundtracky and atmospheric. They were then told by the producers something to the effect of "No, we want a song for the soundtrack album" and so rushed to assemble Shellshock. Could Salvation Theme and Sputnik be related to those rejected PiP atmospherics?
As it so happened, the film ended up using somewhat more atmospheric New Order tracks (Elegia and Thieves Like Us Instrumental) in the film far more than the snippet of Shellshock that only featured when a radio dial was being turned.
Andy wrote: far more than the snippet of Shellshock that only featured when a radio dial was being turned.
Actually, as well as on being on the radio for that super-quick snippet, they do play about a minute of 'Shellshock' later in the film (where Jon Cryer's character is riding his bike outside Molly Ringwald's character's house). It's basically the start of the song, so is just the intro (no singing), so is still relatively 'atmospheric'.
I'd never thought that the 'Salvation' tracks may have been remnants from 'Pretty In Pink'. An interesting theory and I'd like to know too.
Incidentally, I rather like 'Pretty In Pink'. Certainly much more so than the other 80s films the band's songs were used on ('Something Wild', 'Empire State', 'Salvation!', 'Bright Lights, Big City' and 'Married To The Mob'.). I probably prefer PIP to 'The Breakfast Club', if truth be told. The use of New Order tracks probably sways my opinion though, naturally (and what fine choices in TLU and Elegia!).
perspexorange wrote: 'Married To The Mob'
The soundtrack version of Bizarre Love Triangle is a favorite, though. New vocal from Bernard, and he sings a little melody between the verses that Stephen usually played on synth at gigs.
50poundnote wrote:
perspexorange wrote: 'Married To The Mob'
The soundtrack version of Bizarre Love Triangle is a favorite, though. New vocal from Bernard, and he sings a little melody between the verses that Stephen usually played on synth at gigs.
Agreed. That Hague mix with the 'do-do-dos' and that lovely ending 'shimmer' is just wonderful. My favourite version by far.
perspexorange wrote:
Andy wrote: far more than the snippet of Shellshock that only featured when a radio dial was being turned.
Actually, as well as on being on the radio for that super-quick snippet, they do play about a minute of 'Shellshock' later in the film (where Jon Cryer's character is riding his bike outside Molly Ringwald's character's house). It's basically the start of the song, so is just the intro (no singing), so is still relatively 'atmospheric'.
I'd never thought that the 'Salvation' tracks may have been remnants from 'Pretty In Pink'. An interesting theory and I'd like to know too.
Incidentally, I rather like 'Pretty In Pink'. Certainly much more so than the other 80s films the band's songs were used on ('Something Wild', 'Empire State', 'Salvation!', 'Bright Lights, Big City' and 'Married To The Mob'.). I probably prefer PIP to 'The Breakfast Club', if truth be told. The use of New Order tracks probably sways my opinion though, naturally (and what fine choices in TLU and Elegia!).
It's been ages since I've seen it, but remember that bit as using TLU, with Elegia used for the rain scenes.
I’ve got the clips saved from the film.
‘Shellshock’ is used when Jon Cryer is outside Molly Ringwald’s house, on his bike as well as very briefly on the radio before that.
‘Elegia’ is when Ringwald is crying in her bedroom and when she meets Andrew McCarthy at school.
‘Thieves Like Us’ is used when they’re all getting ready for prom, with Ringwald making her dress etc.
Not sure about the rain scenes, as I don’t have anything of that description saved. Maybe I missed that bit.
Let me know if you want the clips and I’ll send ‘em over.
perspexorange wrote: Not sure about the rain scenes, as I don’t have anything of that description saved. Maybe I missed that bit.
I seem to recall rain - or at least wet pavement at night (a Hollywood trope) at the end, but isn't that to OMD's If You Leave?
Andy wrote:
Here's some more speculation: I've always understood that New Order submitted music for Pretty in Pink that was soundtracky and atmospheric. They were then told by the producers something to the effect of "No, we want a song for the soundtrack album" and so rushed to assemble Shellshock.
That sounds an awful lot like the same story that OMD tell about them providing incidental music and the producers rejecting it, asking for a big song instead - so they knocked out "If You Leave"
Andy wrote: That sounds an awful lot like the same story that OMD tell about them providing incidental music and the producers rejecting it, asking for a big song instead - so they knocked out "If You Leave"
I have an online friend who's father worked at A&M assembling the soundtracks for John Hughes' films. Hughes routinely asked artists he liked to provide tunes, and my friend has a cassette of instrumental demos Robert Smith sent for consideration for Ferris Bueller's Day Off. None of them were used, and the first demo on the cassette turned into The Kiss, the first song on Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me the following year.
There's a 4 CD box set of music from the Hughes films coming out in November, called Life Moves Pretty Fast - The John Hughes Mixtapes. Weirdly, it contains Elegia, but not Shellshock (or the instrumental of TLU)...these things always come down to licensing issues.
GotBlueEyes wrote:
Andy wrote:
Here's some more speculation: I've always understood that New Order submitted music for Pretty in Pink that was soundtracky and atmospheric. They were then told by the producers something to the effect of "No, we want a song for the soundtrack album" and so rushed to assemble Shellshock.
That sounds an awful lot like the same story that OMD tell about them providing incidental music and the producers rejecting it, asking for a big song instead - so they knocked out "If You Leave"
OMD originally submitted Goddess of Love, but when test audiences were disappointed with the ending of the film, the director reshot who got the girl. The changed version necessitated something with different lyrical content (in the eyes of the director). OMD then hastily wrote If You Leave to order (they had also been requested to make it the same BPM as the song Don't You by Simple Minds, which people had been filmed dancing to in previously shot footage).
Andy wrote:
OMD originally submitted Goddess of Love, but when test audiences were disappointed with the ending of the film, the director reshot who got the girl. The changed version necessitated something with different lyrical content (in the eyes of the director). OMD then hastily wrote If You Leave to order (they had also been requested to make it the same BPM as the song Don't You by Simple Minds, which people had been filmed dancing to in previously shot footage).
Interesting. I'd never heard this before. I had a friend who was convinced that Andie picked the wrong guy and the film was set up for Andie and Duckie to get together. So, it looks like this was the original intention.
According to Wikipedia, the original ending can't be located. Shame.
Thanks for the info.
perspexorange wrote: I had a friend who was convinced that Andie picked the wrong guy and the film was set up for Andie and Duckie to get together. So, it looks like this was the original intention.
According to Wikipedia, the original ending can't be located. Shame.
The wikipedia page has a brief bit on the novel: "The film was adapted into a novel written by H. B. Gilmour and Randi Reisfield, released in 1986. ... The book was written before the last scene was changed, so it has the original ending in which Andie ends up with Duckie instead of Blane."
I actually read the novel, because a friend had it and I'd already (1) bought the soundtrack and then (2) seen the film. It was a short novel, and felt a bit like a girls' romance thing TBH. He didnt tell me about the changed ending so it was a bit of a surprise. I gotta say though, I'm pretty sure that Duckie was gay and I'm pretty sure that Blane was a bit of an arse, so neither of them were right for her really! Molly Ringwald says Duckie was gay here, although Jon Cryer disagrees.
I would add that, having watched Ringwald in both the Breakfast Club (mentioned earlier in the thread) and Pretty In Pink in the last five years, The Breakfast Club has aged better.
And at the risk of offending people's nostalgic 80s memories, I would suggest that The Perks Of Being A Wallflower (2012) covers similar territory to both of the above, and is actually better than both of them. It's set around the late 80s or early 90's and its soundtrack includes NO's Temptation (plus The Smiths, Cocteau Twins, Bowie, Galaxie 500, Sonic Youth, Throwing Muses). The IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes scores speak for themselves.
In Breakfast Club, who was the fool with the gloves on indoors? Looked like an extra from the TBTHOG video or maybe played in an early version of Revenge. It was ok for teen years but not exactly Mike Leigh or Ken Loach.
tapebias wrote: In Breakfast Club, who was the fool with the gloves on indoors?
Judd Nelson
It's been a iong two years since the 'Power, Corruption & Lies' set. Hope we won't have to wait until 2024 for 'Brotherhood'!
I'm in eager anticipation for an announcement about the 'Low-Life' set now, given the mourning period for The Queen ended earlier this week. Wondered if it won't be announced whilst the Unity tour is in progress, but given the set is being manufactured, and the tour doesn't finish until 16 Oct, I'm hopeful we'll hear an announcement before then.
Any update Johnny?
Mr Discography wrote: given the mourning period for The Queen ended earlier this week.
Undoubtedly had a big affect on proceedings. Huge!
Indeed. The ending of the mourning period for The Queen will surely and undoubtedly really give the Low Life def box project the boot up the arse it needs to get it finished and ready for release. The two things are inextricably linked!
Debaser wrote:
Mr Discography wrote: given the mourning period for The Queen ended earlier this week.
Undoubtedly had a big affect on proceedings. Huge!
Fotz wrote: Indeed. The ending of the mourning period for The Queen will surely and undoubtedly really give the Low Life def box project the boot up the arse it needs to get it finished and ready for release. The two things are inextricably linked!
Perhaps I should have elaborated on the speculative thoughts in my post.
I'm making the assumption both of you aren't living in the UK, because in the 11 days from Queenie dying to her funeral taking place, there was quite a media blackout, with many TV, advertising and media companies walking on eggshells to ensure that a certain easily-offended subset of the UK population didn't get upset by such companies seeming to carrying out their usual business. This led to a lot of publicity campaigns being put on hold until this Tuesday onwards. Given we know the box set is in production, there's hopefully an announcement and pre-sales coming very soon - so I was just wondering out loud if any such promotion had been put on hold for that reason.
Of course, it's highly likely my pondering was unfounded, and they just haven't got around to getting the box set marketing ready yet anyway! Johnny will no doubt be able to confirm that I was talking shite...! 😄
In summary, I'm desperate to find out a track list and release date for the set, as I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on it!
No i live in UK . Can't see how the box set would be affected by her passing. I actually quite liked the Queen on reflection, or maybe i've been brainwashed to think that by recents. She was a decent human being really in comparison to the horrifying "leaders" of the world of recent years like T***p, J*****n' etc
Mr Discography wrote:
I'm making the assumption both of you aren't living in the UK, because in the 11 days from Queenie dying to her funeral taking place, there was quite a media blackout, with many TV, advertising and media companies walking on eggshells to ensure that a certain easily-offended subset of the UK population didn't get upset by such companies seeming to carrying out their usual business.
Probably a good thing you weren’t gagging for news on a box set of the third Smiths’ album instead, Mr D.
Mr Discography wrote:
Debaser wrote:
Mr Discography wrote: given the mourning period for The Queen ended earlier this week.
Undoubtedly had a big affect on proceedings. Huge!
Fotz wrote: Indeed. The ending of the mourning period for The Queen will surely and undoubtedly really give the Low Life def box project the boot up the arse it needs to get it finished and ready for release. The two things are inextricably linked!
In summary, I'm desperate to find out a track list and release date for the set, as I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on it!
Don't get too worked up. Jumping the queue for a box is frowned upon.
I'm just waiting for the tracklisting so I can moan about it. I bought the Movement boxset last month and regretted it soon after, although it is a nice colour.
Andy wrote:
Here's some more speculation: I've always understood that New Order submitted music for Pretty in Pink that was soundtracky and atmospheric. They were then told by the producers something to the effect of "No, we want a song for the soundtrack album" and so rushed to assemble Shellshock.
I'm sure it's old news to the faithful but I only just heard this - John Robie's "One More Shot", which several people claim online was the track New Order reworked with Robie in their rush to put together Shellshock
I guess similar to Arthur Baker and IOU / Confusion
GotBlueEyes wrote:
I'm sure it's old news to the faithful but I only just heard this - John Robie's "One More Shot", which several people claim online was the track New Order reworked with Robie in their rush to put together Shellshock
I guess similar to Arthur Baker and IOU / Confusion
Funnily enough this came up here on the forum within the past year. Reply #45 and below.
Speaking of IOU, does anyone here do Wordle? I always end up singing the chorus to IOU in my head when thinking about vowels...
Aye, looks like they've left it too late for the christmas market. Which reminds me of that awful flexidisc they made, possibly the worse thing I've ever heard and thankfully rarely mentioned...until now.
It was delivered to production at the very last minute (for 2022 release). I've no update as to whether anything has delayed it beyond that. Other releases are still being announced for this year, so maybe there's still time, though not much.
Thanks JJ. Always good to have mini-updates.
tapebias wrote: Which reminds me of that awful flexidisc they made, possibly the worse thing I've ever heard and thankfully rarely mentioned...until now.
I'm fine with the flexi (which technically was released under the 'BeMusic' moniker, rather than the band name).
Obviously the music is a bit daft, but I appreciate that the band thought it might be fun to have a go at a couple of famous songs and put their stamp on them (albeit it in a jokey way). Then releasing them, free to people at their own club as way of a Christmas present. That's pretty cool if you ask me.
I miss the band doing things like that. Like creating a 22 minute piece of music (Video 5-8-6) and giving it away to a fanzine to release. Like supplying two of their greatest ever songs (Atmosphere & Dead Souls) to a French 'arty' label that would release them in very limited quantities. Producing other bands' work, but anonymously under the 'BeMusic' label. etc.
So many reasons to love this great band.
perspexorange wrote:
Like supplying two of their greatest ever songs (Atmosphere & Dead Souls) to a French 'arty' label that would release them in very limited quantities.'
It used to amaze me that they gave away Atmosphere like that. But i sometimes wonder that they didn't realise at the time what they had created with that song. Sounds impossible or even a mad theory, i know. Maybe only later they realised what an incredible piece of music they'd done?
Fotz wrote:
perspexorange wrote:
Like supplying two of their greatest ever songs (Atmosphere & Dead Souls) to a French 'arty' label that would release them in very limited quantities.'
It used to amaze me that they gave away Atmosphere like that. But i sometimes wonder that they didn't realise at the time what they had created with that song. Sounds impossible or even a mad theory, i know. Maybe only later they realised what an incredible piece of music they'd done?
How about Factory letting them do that!
Johnny James wrote:
Fotz wrote:
perspexorange wrote:
Like supplying two of their greatest ever songs (Atmosphere & Dead Souls) to a French 'arty' label that would release them in very limited quantities.'
It used to amaze me that they gave away Atmosphere like that. But i sometimes wonder that they didn't realise at the time what they had created with that song. Sounds impossible or even a mad theory, i know. Maybe only later they realised what an incredible piece of music they'd done?
How about Factory letting them do that!
Haha, yes it did occur to me later after i posted that. A very Factory thing to do.
Hello guys ![[hi]](/emoticons/hi.gif){kind=small}
Just received The Perfect Kiss (writing session recording) on my Deezer !
3'17
edit : and the Low-Life box cover seems to be light grey...
In A Noisy Place wrote: Hello guys
Just received The Perfect Kiss (writing session recording) on my Deezer !
edit : and the Low-Life box cover seems to be light grey...
Also available now on the NewOrder YouTube channel
And on Amazon Music as the preview track. Can also see the tracklist of the second disc if you search the individual tracks
edit: also in order here https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/low-life-definitive-new-order/hizoo92hvrgnc
Also noticed that Let's Go is the only one with a track timing on QOBUZ - and it says 2:01, so it's either an unreleased version or the abbreviated "Let's G..." version from the Retro boxset (which is 2:03)
Sunrise (Instrumental Rough Mix) is presumably the same as the one on the Discreet Campaigns cassette comp
The Record Mirror EP exclusive Sub Culture remix is absent though - a shame as I like that version
Some exciting stuff to look forward to though - if TPK writing demo is anything to go by, these could all be embryonic gems
Plus Untitled tracks and a full length STYT! (I wonder what was edited out, as the LP version has a cold start and a proper ending, so presumably there was a longer instrumental section)
GotBlueEyes wrote:
Plus [1] Untitled tracks and [2] a full length STYT! (I wonder what was edited out, as the LP version has a cold start and a proper ending, so presumably there was a longer instrumental section)
These were the exact two thoughts I had. Face Up would be the more obvious contender for a "full length" considering it fades out while Bernard is still singing. There must be an un-faded recordng somewhere? (As there turned out to be for BM in multitrack form)
Col72 wrote: Also available now on the NewOrder YouTube channel
So it is!
All very intriguing. Wondering if one of the untitled ones is that 9 minute instrumental that was or still is available on YouTube. Think there was a Sept 1984 recording date associated with it. It had some qiite melodic passages and also the car skidding noise that they use on live versions of TPK.Hope so.
Curious to hear stuff like a full length STYT .
Wow! Great stuff!
More thoughts later (I’m in the office today), but excited by a lot of those. STYT extended? Yes please!
Curiously (and a tad disappointingly), there doesn’t appear to be the vocal version of Let’s Go. But it’s a minor quibble (after all, we have the bootleg).
I wonder if the full-length Elegia is the one we’ve already heard. Hooky mentioned in one of his weekly Covid/Jack chats back in 2020 that he had discovered an even longer version.
Anyone able to find the DVD listing yet?
Fotz wrote: Wondering if one of the untitled ones is that 9 minute instrumental that was or still is available on YouTube. Think there was a Sept 1984 recording date associated with it. It had some qiite melodic passages and also the car skidding noise that they use on live versions of TPK.Hope so.
Can't immediately find that video. Does anyone have a link?
There is also a bootleg of Let's Go with vocals (completely different lyrics and tune to the later version on the 1963 single) which seems absent on the Boxset tracklist
GotBlueEyes wrote:
Can't immediately find that video. Does anyone have a link?
Last track here, I think. Starts around 1:06:50
perspexorange wrote:
GotBlueEyes wrote:
Can't immediately find that video. Does anyone have a link?
Last track here, I think. Starts around 1:06:50
Ah - yes, I did have that track in a bootlegs folder somewhere. Bit rambling and actually nearly 12 minutes long - would be a surprise if that was deemed good enough quality to use on a definitive edition, but we will find out soon!
What’s interesting, based on the track order provided on that Quboz link, is that the bonus tracks follow the LP ordering.
Seen as if we are missing a version of ‘This Time Of Night’ and that ‘Untitled 1’ is in its place, I wonder if it’s a proto-version of that track. Or maybe they just put it there to keep the running order similar to the original LP.
Love Vigilantes (TV Pitch Instrumental Edit)
The Perfect Kiss (Writing Session Recording)
Untitled 1 (Writing Session Recording)
Sunrise (Instrumental Rough Mix)
Elegia (Full Length Version; 2022 Digital Master)
Sooner Than You Think (Full Length Version)
Sub-culture (Low-life Session Instrumental)
Face Up (Writing Session Recording)
Let's Go (Low-life Session Instrumental)
Untitled 2 (Writing Session Recording)
Sunrise (Writing Session Recording)
Love Vigilantes (Writing Session Recording)
Sooner Than You Think (Writing Session Recording)
Skullcrusher (Demo)
Wonder what that ‘TV Pitch’ name refers to for the LV opener. Maybe the band were toying with the idea of soundtrack work even in those early days.
Wonder if Skullcrusher is a vocal version.
On the face of it, the tracks I’m most excited by are the two Untitled tracks and the STYT extended.
Colour me excited. Obvs.
GotBlueEyes wrote: would be a surprise if that was deemed good enough quality to use on a definitive edition, but we will find out soon!
I doubt this version of the track would be suitable for release. As I understand it, the track linked to above was a ‘rehearsal’ rather than a demo.
I think what Fotz was speculating is that the band may have recorded a ‘demo’ of the same track as well.
It’s an interesting piece of music and I’d like to hear more from it.
The set is now live on the store.
https://store.neworder.com/gb/low-life-definitive-edition/0825646253012.html
DVD track listings:
DVD1: Live in Tokyo The Koseinenkin Hall, Tokyo, Japan 1985
Live in Rotterdam The Rotterdam Arena, Netherlands 1985
Live in Manchester Whistle Test, The Hacienda 1985
DVD2: Live in Leuven The Manhattan Club, Leuven, Belgium 1985
Bonus Tracks 10. Thieves Like Us 11. Temptation 12. Confusion - Restored version from damaged tape with mixing desk audio.
Live in Toronto Filmed by Paul Boyd The International Centre, Toronto, Canada 1985
The Perfect Film Rehearsal Room, Cheetham Hill, Manchester 1985
Looks great!
So, a few things to note.
It is a 2xDVD set. I think Johnny mentioned it might only be a 1xDVD set, so this is a great bonus.
3x12" being released alongside; TPK, Sub-Culture and Shellshock. I'm very glad of the latter, as I always think of it as more Low Life than Brotherhood.
TPK 12" is limited, with clear vinyl and a mirrored sleeve. Looks like it might be rather lovely.
Leuven and PFD are included. I have said previously that I'd rather they weren't included (as great as they are, especially Leuven). Just because we've got this material in good quality already. However, I'm still pleased they're on there, and makes sense now that we have 2xDVDs.
Wonder if 'The Perfect Film' is the standard TPK video or whether there's additional footage. I suspect the former. The greatest video ever made, IMHO.
Face Up from OGWT is a surprise. I think JJ mentioned that the BBC stopped the cameras roiling part-way through this. I wonder how they managed to fix this. It mentions July '85 footage being used, which seems strange.
Confusion at Leuven. I think that's new, isn't it?
Last, and best of all... full gigs of Rotterdam and Toronto! (yay, especially for the latter which looks awesome, based on what we've seen).
Thrilled. i really am.
Better start saving!
Hmm - just noticed this from the description:
The two DVDs include rarely seen live performances from Rotterdam Arena (Netherlands), Koseinenkin Hall (Tokyo, Japan) and the International Centre (Toronto, Canada) alongside a BBC session and three tracks performed at the Hacienda in 1985.
I can see the three Hacienda tracks, but not sure where the BBC session is. I guess they're referring to the 'Rock Around The Clock/Saturday Live' tracks, but I can't see them on there (unless I'm going blind/stupid).
£149 for the set - that's gone up since PCL! The box isn't listed on Amazon yet, so I'll wait until it appears there, as I've a few quids worth of gift vouchers built up and the price often drops as it gets closer to release date, and they honour that price no matter when you order.
Think that's Pumped Full Of Drugs on the DVD isn't it? Already had that on the Japanese DVD edition, but appreciate many won't have it digitally yet. Again, echo the comments about it being a shame the original vocal 'Let's Go' isn't on there (guess the recording was too iffy), and also hope it's an even longer 'Elegia' but expect it to be the same version that appeared on Retro and the Low-Life Collectors 2CD previously. Really excited to hear the rest of those disc 2 tracks though!
Also looking forward to finally getting digital versions of Perfect Pit and the full Shellshock 12", as well as the other 3 x 12' tracks remastered. First re-release of Kiss Of Death since Substance 35 years ago!
Can't wait to get my hands on this new box set at last!
Cripes, £149.99 ? Yep, i'm with Mr Discography on this, i'm sure i only paid £80 for the previous definitive boxes. I'll try wait it out to see if it's cheaper elsewhere neare the time.
But i will pre-order that 5000 limited edition of TPK with the mirrored sleeve and clear vinyl. The mirror image sleeve was something Saville originally envisaged for it ? Didn't know that. Or is that a story that's been cobbled together for a clever marketing ploy to get us to buy the limited edition? Bit cynical of me to think that, i know, sorry.
So the x3 12" singles are all released the same day as the box. Previous definitive boxes have seen the accompanying singles released week by week leading up to the box release i seem to recall, right? Anyway.
Yeah that Face Up footage seems a bit odd, split over 2 different gigs? Still, will be good to see.
Oh and cool that the CD will have the tracing paper sleeve. Though i'm a little puzzled that it " will be the first time ever" for the CD to have it. My old Low Life CD has the tracing paper that you slip the x4 cards into , like the cassette box does. Or do they mean the CD will have the fold-in tracing paper sleeve like the vinyl album?
Anyway, it's all looking good and many thanks to Johnny James and all involved.
sorry, too busy ordering things to look at the listings.. will get to that later on.
going for the deluxe..
all the singles.
the crystal perfect kiss one, and the black one
also got both tshirts.
yikes.
=====
ok, i did notice one thing.
the cover to the subculture single is different.
later -1
Ordered just the TPK 12" limited edition mirrored sleeve and clear vinyl for now. It's only available from the neworder store ? I'll see about the other 12" singles and the box nearer the time.
As regards the "BBC session" , yep as perspex said, is this the Rock Around The Clock thing? I think not TBH. I'm guessing the wording is a little misleading. "alongside a BBC session and three tracks performed at the Hacienda in 1985." looks like a BBC session and the Whistle Test songs but i think they mean the BBC Session is just the Whistle Test tracks. The wording is slightly incorrect, i think. Happy to be proved wrong of course.
Fotz wrote: Oh and cool that the CD will have the tracing paper sleeve. Though i'm a little puzzled that it " will be the first time ever" for the CD to have it. My old Low Life CD has the tracing paper that you slip the x4 cards into , like the cassette box does. Or do they mean the CD will have the fold-in tracing paper sleeve like the vinyl album?
Anyway, it's all looking good and many thanks to Johnny James and all involved.
The Definitive CDs so far have been more or less miniature recreations of the album sleeves. Guess that what this means.
negative1 wrote:
ok, i did notice one thing.
the cover to the subculture single is different.
Hmm. Yeah. Looks like it's got the disc label actually printed on the sleeve.
Additionally, the picture of the sleeve for the standard TPK looks almost blue, rather than silver. Unless it's my display / the website showing a wonky colour.
I've ordered TPK limited edition, just in case that sells out.
I will order the box set and other singles at a later date.
With the PC&L set, I bought from the store as I think it was slightly cheaper to buy it there than Amazon, if you went with the box plus 4x12"s (which I did). However, when my set arrived, it didn't have that nifty 'Obi-style' band around the set that came with the Amazon-shipped variants. I was mildly peeved about that. I even messaged the New Order Store to see if they could send me one of these 'bands' (they couldn't!).
So, I will probably get my purchases from Amazon this time. Just in case they do the same thing (the Movement set didn't have a band, so who knows with this one).
Incidentally, I tried to sign into my NOStore account and couldn't (password invalid). Tried to reset, but the necessary email didn't arrive. Seems weird, as I'm sure my password is correct. Wonder if the Store is having problems.
Anyway, TPK Crystal variant ordered!
Bought everything: box, all 4 12" singles, and both shirts.
I also had trouble signing in. It looks like they've got separate stores for the US and UK based on the URL, so I just set up a new account.
In the linked Classic Pop article above, Saville said he was only ever asked to design a label for Subculture because they were rushing to get it out. Kinda wish they'd done this reissue as a diecut sleeve, but I don't mind having it with a slightly different design.
Wonder if either of The Perfect Kiss singles will come with one of the CYMK color variant inner sleeves?
Hmmm.
As regards the 'Sub-Culture' sleeve, the description says the following:
"Remastered with a 2022 updated sleeve of the original 12” single – Sub-Culture was the second single from 1985’s Low-Life.Peter Saville says of the updated sleeve: "LABEL ONLY was specified in 1985 due to time pressure around the original release and as a consequence, a sleeve design for the re-release has no actual precedent. However, exploring the principle 'the solution is in the problem’ has led to the subliminal evocation of a sleeve that is still LABEL ONLY”.
Well, this is different from what Saville has said in the past. I know we've discussed this at length, but the only time I can remember him mentioning it was an interview with Dave Haslam where he said something along the lines of 'I can only presume I wasn't asked to design one'.
If the above description is true, this does go some way to confirm £50note's theory that the blank sleeve (+labels) actually "is the design".
We have speculated before about time-constraints, and this does appear to have been a factor.
I wonder why Saville has suddenly remembered this. Maybe he has comprehensive notebooks.
Still, it's the best answer we have got so far, and makes a certain amount of sense (much better than the whole rumour about Saville hating the remix etc., which always seemed like bullshit to me).
negative1 wrote:
the cover to the subculture single is different
Peter Saville says of the updated sleeve: "LABEL ONLY was specified in 1985 due to time pressure around the original release and as a consequence, a sleeve design for the re-release has no actual precedent. However, exploring the principle 'the solution is in the problem’ has led to the subliminal evocation of a sleeve that is still LABEL ONLY”.
Haven't been buying these re-released 12 inches so far, as I have all the originals. Perhaps this has been cottoned onto, as the extra Peter Saville info about the silver Perfect Kiss has tempted me into ordering that. Also tempted to get this Sub-culture finally with a "cover". However, will wait to this Appears (hopefully cheaper) on Amazon or elsewhere.
50poundnote wrote:
In the linked Classic Pop article above, Saville said he was only ever asked to design a label for Subculture because they were rushing to get it out. Kinda wish they'd done this reissue as a diecut sleeve, but I don't mind having it with a slightly different design.
Wonder if either of The Perfect Kiss singles will come with one of the CYMK color variant inner sleeves?
Was just thinking about you and your theory of "the sleeve is the design" (that was you, wasn't it?). And then you post about the sleeve as I'm typing.
perspexorange wrote: 3x12" being released alongside; TPK, Sub-Culture and Shellshock. I'm very glad of the latter, as I always think of it as more Low Life than Brotherhood.
I've always associated it more with Brotherhood, simply because of the similar artwork to State Of The Nation and Bizzare Love Triangle. As it came more or less between those albums, maybe New Order associate it with Low-Life, and Saville Brotherhood.
At least the association's are consistent with the Collectors Editions.
Guess this means it'll be State, Bizarre, True Faith and Touched released with the Brotherhood box - could be as many as 5 x 12" releases to accompany that including the True Faith remix 12".
perspexorange wrote:
negative1 wrote:
ok, i did notice one thing.
the cover to the subculture single is different.
Hmm. Yeah. Looks like it's got the disc label actually printed on the sleeve.
Additionally, the picture of the sleeve for the standard TPK looks almost blue, rather than silver. Unless it's my display / the website showing a wonky colour.
Oh yes, i see now.The Sub Culture sleeve takes the "Sub Culture" type font from the disc label.I actually quite like that, looks pretty cool.
TPK standard sleeve looks almost blue on your screen? Not seeing it like that on mine.
perspexorange wrote:
With the PC&L set, I bought from the store as I think it was slightly cheaper to buy it there than Amazon, if you went with the box plus 4x12"s (which I did). However, when my set arrived, it didn't have that nifty 'Obi-style' band around the set that came with the Amazon-shipped variants. I was mildly peeved about that. I even messaged the New Order Store to see if they could send me one of these 'bands' (they couldn't!).
I bought the PCL box from Amazon and it did not have that Obi Style band. So i wouldn't take it as a given that you'd get one if you ordered it from elsewhere than neworder store.Seems more like luck of the draw.
perspexorange wrote:
Incidentally, I tried to sign into my NOStore account and couldn't (password invalid). Tried to reset, but the necessary email didn't arrive. Seems weird, as I'm sure my password is correct. Wonder if the Store is having problems.
You can order as a guest at neworder store.I guess you did that if you've managed to order the limited edition TPK 12".I had to do that as i've long forgotten my password.Could present problems though if there's any problem with the order?
perspexorange wrote:
I've ordered TPK limited edition, just in case that sells out.
Yep, same.
perspexorange wrote: Leuven and PFD are included. I have said previously that I'd rather they weren't included (as great as they are, especially Leuven). Just because we've got this material in good quality already
Don't recall the Leuven footage being released commercially - where did your "good quality" version of this come from?
perspexorange wrote:
Incidentally, I tried to sign into my NOStore account and couldn't (password invalid). Tried to reset, but the necessary email didn't arrive. Seems weird, as I'm sure my password is correct. Wonder if the Store is having problems.
Anyway, TPK Crystal variant ordered!
my account and password didn't work either. no way to recover.
created a new account.
later -1
Mr Discography wrote:
Don't recall the Leuven footage being released commercially - where did your "good quality" version of this come from?
Over the last few years it’s been on various streaming sites. Quello plus various other places:
perspexorange wrote:
Mr Discography wrote:
Don't recall the Leuven footage being released commercially - where did your "good quality" version of this come from?
Over the last few years it’s been on various streaming sites. Quello plus various other places:
Glad it's got a physical release in that case!
I have mixed feelings about the Pumped Full of Drugs show being included (I have the Japanese DVD). While I welcome any improvements made to the audio/visual quality, it's not really that great of a performance. I'd really hoped the missing songs from the gig would be included (The Perfect Kiss, Age of Consent and Temptation). In addition, they played the same venue the day before, and I'd always imagined footage existed from a dry run of the production. Nothing emerges here.
Andy wrote: I have mixed feelings about the Pumped Full of Drugs show being included (I have the Japanese DVD). While I welcome any improvements made to the audio/visual quality, it's not really that great of a performance. I'd really hoped the missing songs from the gig would be included (The Perfect Kiss, Age of Consent and Temptation). In addition, they played the same venue the day before, and I'd always imagined footage existed from a dry run of the production. Nothing emerges here.
I did think at first that it could be the previous night's gig at the venue , so i checked the tracklist but nope, it is indeed the PFD night . Yep, mixed feelings on this for me too.
Andy wrote: I have mixed feelings about the Pumped Full of Drugs show being included (I have the Japanese DVD). While I welcome any improvements made to the audio/visual quality, it's not really that great of a performance. I'd really hoped the missing songs from the gig would be included (The Perfect Kiss, Age of Consent and Temptation). In addition, they played the same venue the day before, and I'd always imagined footage existed from a dry run of the production. Nothing emerges here.
I agree...if the video footage of the three tracks omitted from the original PFD release exists, this seems like the perfect opportunity to finally make it available. Disappointed that it's not included.
Perhaps JJ can provide some insight/knowledge on this?
Nonetheless, this looks like an excellent release. Looking forward to it!
Tracey wrote:
Andy wrote: I have mixed feelings about the Pumped Full of Drugs show being included (I have the Japanese DVD). While I welcome any improvements made to the audio/visual quality, it's not really that great of a performance. I'd really hoped the missing songs from the gig would be included (The Perfect Kiss, Age of Consent and Temptation). In addition, they played the same venue the day before, and I'd always imagined footage existed from a dry run of the production. Nothing emerges here.
I agree...if the video footage of the three tracks omitted from the original PFD release exists, this seems like the perfect opportunity to finally make it available. Disappointed that it's not included.
Perhaps JJ can provide some insight/knowledge on this?
Nonetheless, this looks like an excellent release. Looking forward to it!
I was on the hunt for those tracks, I got multiple U-Matics transferred that looked hopeful, all had the exact same edited version.
Fotz wrote:
But i will pre-order that 5000 limited edition of TPK with the mirrored sleeve and clear vinyl. The mirror image sleeve was something Saville originally envisaged for it ? Didn't know that. Or is that a story that's been cobbled together for a clever marketing ploy to get us to buy the limited edition?
From reading this...
“The mirror finish for The Perfect Kiss sleeve was the idea at the time (1985) that unfortunately was not realised. I have wanted to see it ever since. The original concept was intended to evoke the reflective glamour of a lipstick (re Perfect Kiss) in a minimal / pop art style. The Perfect Kiss in this form will be transformative and a must-have for fans and collectors alike”.
...I think it's pretty clear that Saville wants the owner of the mirror sleeve to use it as a mirror and "transform" themselves by applying lipstick. Maybe y'all could post pictures of yourselves here with lippy on, once you've received your 12"s!
In other news, they've done a little advert. And I'm a sucker for adverts with NO music in them. Especially if the ad is actually for NO (obvs)!
[TWITTER]1590736218307719168[/TWITTER]
Looks good if you go full screen.
negative1 wrote:
perspexorange wrote:
Incidentally, I tried to sign into my NOStore account and couldn't (password invalid). Tried to reset, but the necessary email didn't arrive. Seems weird, as I'm sure my password is correct. Wonder if the Store is having problems.
Anyway, TPK Crystal variant ordered!
my account and password didn't work either. no way to recover.
created a new account.
later -1
Same here ! Didn't receive any confirmation email after ordering...no view either on my placed order yesterday... ![[skeptic]](/emoticons/skeptical.gif){kind=small}
In A Noisy Place wrote:
negative1 wrote:
perspexorange wrote:
Incidentally, I tried to sign into my NOStore account and couldn't (password invalid). Tried to reset, but the necessary email didn't arrive. Seems weird, as I'm sure my password is correct. Wonder if the Store is having problems.
Anyway, TPK Crystal variant ordered!
my account and password didn't work either. no way to recover.
created a new account.
later -1
Same here ! Didn't receive any confirmation email after ordering...no view either on my placed order yesterday...
hmm, check with the store.
i did get a confirmation email.
also my credit card was charged, so i know that part went through to.
later -1
Johnny, can you explain the decision not to include the finished vocal version of Let's Go?
I have a cleaned up version that sounds fantastic considering it's sourced from an old cassette. Was it left off the album at the last minute to 1. make room for an edit of The Perfect Kiss, or 2. because it sounds too similar to Sooner Than You Think?
In A Noisy Place wrote: Same here ! Didn't receive any confirmation email after ordering...no view either on my placed order yesterday...
I received a confirmation email for both my separate orders. Please check your credit card to see if the charge went through. If it didn't you may need to place your order again.
On DVD 2, why are Thieves Like Us, Temptation and Confusion placed as bonus tracks at the end of the Leuven video rather than their original place in the set that night? For example, TLU was 4th song at that gig.
Johnny James wrote:
Tracey wrote:
Andy wrote: I have mixed feelings about the Pumped Full of Drugs show being included (I have the Japanese DVD). While I welcome any improvements made to the audio/visual quality, it's not really that great of a performance. I'd really hoped the missing songs from the gig would be included (The Perfect Kiss, Age of Consent and Temptation). In addition, they played the same venue the day before, and I'd always imagined footage existed from a dry run of the production. Nothing emerges here.
I agree...if the video footage of the three tracks omitted from the original PFD release exists, this seems like the perfect opportunity to finally make it available. Disappointed that it's not included.
Perhaps JJ can provide some insight/knowledge on this?
Nonetheless, this looks like an excellent release. Looking forward to it!
I was on the hunt for those tracks, I got multiple U-Matics transferred that looked hopeful, all had the exact same edited version.
Thank you for the reply.
Factory!
Fotz wrote: On DVD 2, why are Thieves Like Us, Temptation and Confusion placed as bonus tracks at the end of the Leuven video rather than their original place in the set that night? For example, TLU was 4th song at that gig.
I wonder if this has anything to do with the original broadcast. As i understand it, the original 'Rox Box' broadcast on 31/12/85 didn't include Temptation. Then, a few days/weeks later in January '86,'Rox Box' broadcast both Temptation and Thieves Like Us. I guess, this was to show footage that they'd had to cut out of the original New Year's Eve footage for (presumably) time constraints. However, I think the original broadcast had TLU included, so maybe they had a few minutes to use up, so showed TLU alongside that 'missing' track (Temptation).
So, maybe these two tracks were together on a different tape etc. JJ might be able to clarify. I guess Confusion is a bonus as it hasn't been shown at all and maybe they wanted to show that this version of the Leuven gig is different from other showings.
Incidentally, I've never been 100% sure that both TLU and Temptation were shown on the later programme. I have a trade list from back in the day that states both tracks were broadcast on that later show. I definitely know Temptation was as I have a copy of that track which ends in a clip of a woman dressed as a chicken (!). I guess she was a presenter; possibly the clip was shown in a tea-time' (i.e. kids) slot. The main Leuven broadcast (on NYE) ends in an advert with a family running to catch a plane/train, so Temptation was certainly shown on a different programme to the main broadcast.
Whilst we're asking JJ questions, could he perhaps answer the following:
I know I mentioned these before, but this thread has moved on quite a bit since then (nice to see a flurry of activity on the boards!)
Johnny James wrote:
Tracey wrote:
Andy wrote: I have mixed feelings about the Pumped Full of Drugs show being included (I have the Japanese DVD). While I welcome any improvements made to the audio/visual quality, it's not really that great of a performance. I'd really hoped the missing songs from the gig would be included (The Perfect Kiss, Age of Consent and Temptation). In addition, they played the same venue the day before, and I'd always imagined footage existed from a dry run of the production. Nothing emerges here.
I agree...if the video footage of the three tracks omitted from the original PFD release exists, this seems like the perfect opportunity to finally make it available. Disappointed that it's not included.
Perhaps JJ can provide some insight/knowledge on this?
Nonetheless, this looks like an excellent release. Looking forward to it!
I was on the hunt for those tracks, I got multiple U-Matics transferred that looked hopeful, all had the exact same edited version.
Thanks for making the effort to locate the omitted tracks and for your reply on this. It's always interesting to have additional context/background on what goes into putting these types of releases together.
perspexorange wrote:
Fotz wrote: On DVD 2, why are Thieves Like Us, Temptation and Confusion placed as bonus tracks at the end of the Leuven video rather than their original place in the set that night? For example, TLU was 4th song at that gig.
I wonder if this has anything to do with the original broadcast. As i understand it, the original 'Rox Box' broadcast on 31/12/85 didn't include Temptation. Then, a few days/weeks later in January '86,'Rox Box' broadcast both Temptation and Thieves Like Us. I guess, this was to show footage that they'd had to cut out of the original New Year's Eve footage for (presumably) time constraints. However, I think the original broadcast had TLU included, so maybe they had a few minutes to use up, so showed TLU alongside that 'missing' track (Temptation).
So, maybe these two tracks were together on a different tape etc. JJ might be able to clarify. I guess Confusion is a bonus as it hasn't been shown at all and maybe they wanted to show that this version of the Leuven gig is different from other showings.
Incidentally, I've never been 100% sure that both TLU and Temptation were shown on the later programme. I have a trade list from back in the day that states both tracks were broadcast on that later show. I definitely know Temptation was as I have a copy of that track which ends in a clip of a woman dressed as a chicken (!). I guess she was a presenter; possibly the clip was shown in a tea-time' (i.e. kids) slot. The main Leuven broadcast (on NYE) ends in an advert with a family running to catch a plane/train, so Temptation was certainly shown on a different programme to the main broadcast.
Thanks perspex and i think you may be absolutely correct, it has to do with the broadcasts and which tracks were originally aired and which others at a later date. I have an old VHS i obtained somewhere somehow in the late 80s of the Rox Box tv broadcast and i vaguely recall Thieves Like Us is on it in the correct place in the set.But to check and confirm this i'd have to dig out my old video player, rig it all up and play the tape, that's assuming it's still playable, it has been on the shelf for many years.I have the Stingray Qello thing ( i think you sent me it a year or two back, perspex) on my laptop and just checked and Thieves and Temptation are tagged on the end.Will be good to see Confusion for the first time from that gig.
Amazon UK has the box at £143 , so not much difference from the New Order store, a few quid cheaper but i'm still going to wait til nearer the release.
The band just posted a link to The Perfect Kiss on Twitter and Instagram, and they're using the sleeve I build in Photoshop for Recycle. That feels very validating! :)
50poundnote wrote: The band just posted a link to The Perfect Kiss on Twitter and Instagram, and they're using the sleeve I build in Photoshop for Recycle. That feels very validating! :)
The work of their Social Media Manager has been patchy at best. But I classify that as a win!
Man, that writing session recording of The Perfect Kiss is a banger and a half. I do think the price of the set is a bit steep, but whatever, I'm a NO slut so it'll be mine day one.
Wow what a great couple of days, loved reading all the comments it’s all part of the fun of a new release - Boxset looks visually fantastic!
A few thoughts / queries:
Perfect Kiss Writing Session - imo similar to some of the writing tracks off PCL, fairly unrecognisable after the first intro - still can’t stop listening to it though!
T-Shirt - What’s the material like of the NO T-Shirts nowadays, bought a couple in the past and they’ve been a bit thin and the neck seems a bit big. Like the design so very tempted!
Looking forward to the video interviews with the band members. Do you think we’ll get more episodes of the excellent ‘Transmissions’ podcast?
Finally any idea when Brotherhood will be out? Only joking JJ!! 😄
Like No Other wrote: Wow what a great couple of days, loved reading all the comments it’s all part of the fun of a new release -
Yep, it's all good fun discussing and debating . Takes the mind off the shitshow that is life and the world right now.
50poundnote wrote: The band just posted a link to The Perfect Kiss on Twitter and Instagram, and they're using the sleeve I build in Photoshop for Recycle. That feels very validating! :)
I may be mistaken. I've never seen the sleeve presented online as such a clean, uniform image outside Recycle, but there are subtle differences. I'm thinking they used whatever digital file was created for the reissue. Still looks amazing.
50poundnote wrote: Johnny, can you explain the decision not to include the finished vocal version of Let's Go?
I have a cleaned up version that sounds fantastic considering it's sourced from an old cassette. Was it left off the album at the last minute to 1. make room for an edit of The Perfect Kiss, or 2. because it sounds too similar to Sooner Than You Think?
I guess the easiest explanation is that the instrumental had more chance of getting through, rejected vocals are not particularly favoured. As you say, there is a pretty clear leaked version out there, so now you get a completely unheard instrumental instead.
Fotz wrote: On DVD 2, why are Thieves Like Us, Temptation and Confusion placed as bonus tracks at the end of the Leuven video rather than their original place in the set that night? For example, TLU was 4th song at that gig.
I did really want to re-edit the whole thing and restore the correct order, but we only got the footage with hours to spare before deadline, so it was done this way instead as it was the simplest and quickest solution. I did do some minor work on the bonus tracks (resynching desk audio on Confusion, as we'd already had that).
Also, Confusion is from a live edit with a different picture quality so it would have looked a little odd inserted into the middle of the rest, especially given that the picture breaks up a few times.
From what we received, it does look very much like TLU and Temptation were a seperate broadcast at the time of 'what you missed' from the main show.
perspexorange wrote:
Whilst we're asking JJ questions, could he perhaps answer the following:
- What the 'TV Pitch' means in respect of Love Vigilantes;
- Based on the store description which lists 'a BBC session and three tracks performed at the Hacienda in 1985.', does that mean that the25/08/84 session is on it and just not listed? Or was it pulled and the contents rejigged?
I know I mentioned these before, but this thread has moved on quite a bit since then (nice to see a flurry of activity on the boards!)
Love Vigilantes Instrumental seems to be a specially created edit done for the 1986 world cup, so we gave it a name that hints at the football aspect. I've no idea if it was ever used at the time, perhaps someone knows?
That Rock Around The Clock performance was mooted, so the text is probably a remnant of when it was on the list. It was dropped mainly because there is no master at the BBC, so all we could offer would be a VHS transfer with better audio from the radio, and there are versions like that floating about already.
Thanks JJ. Great to have your input here.
I echo other people’s comments on here in thanking you and others in bringing us such a gorgeous looking set, jam-packed with great contents. It looks like it’ll be a beauty.
Johnny James wrote:
- Love Vigilantes Instrumental seems to be a specially created edit done for the 1986 world cup, so we gave it a name that hints at the football aspect. I've no idea if it was ever used at the time, perhaps someone knows?
Crumbs this is news to me. I do recall in the past couple of years hearing Love Vig used in a trailer on BBC News Channel (!) for one of their own segments/shows. At the time I assumed they just made their own edit of the non-vocal sections. Now I'm wondering if they might have had this in the library...
Johnny James wrote:
Fotz wrote: On DVD 2, why are Thieves Like Us, Temptation and Confusion placed as bonus tracks at the end of the Leuven video rather than their original place in the set that night? For example, TLU was 4th song at that gig.
I did really want to re-edit the whole thing and restore the correct order, but we only got the footage with hours to spare before deadline, so it was done this way instead as it was the simplest and quickest solution. I did do some minor work on the bonus tracks (resynching desk audio on Confusion, as we'd already had that).
Also, Confusion is from a live edit with a different picture quality so it would have looked a little odd inserted into the middle of the rest, especially given that the picture breaks up a few times.
From what we received, it does look very much like TLU and Temptation were a seperate broadcast at the time of 'what you missed' from the main show.
Fantastic.That all makes sense now.Many thanks
Johnny James wrote:
perspexorange wrote:
Whilst we're asking JJ questions, could he perhaps answer the following:
- What the 'TV Pitch' means in respect of Love Vigilantes;
- Love Vigilantes Instrumental seems to be a specially created edit done for the 1986 world cup, so we gave it a name that hints at the football aspect. I've no idea if it was ever used at the time, perhaps someone knows?
Woah! This possibly has solved a mystery for me that dates right back to the 1986 World Cup.
On the opening day of that WC, i was at work (i worked in a shop at the time) as it was a Saturday ( 31st May, i looked it up) and my colleague nipped home for his lunch hour.When he came back he told me he'd been watching the build up on tv for the start of the tournament and the opening match and said, in a football action montage they'd used as soundtrack an "Acoustic version " of Love Vigilantes.I said what do you mean? And he simply said it was Love Vigilantes but a different version, kind of an "Acoustic" version.I didn't and have never known if he had just mistaken it for the album version or a completely different song and as i hadn't seen it or recorded the programme i never knew for sure.
I don't know if it was the ITV coverage my colleague had been watching or BBC but if anyone hunts for it , it was 31st May 86, the World Cup opening day stuff on tv.
Edit: just wondering, it may have been a special World Cup Football Focus as it was lunchtime ( as i said , my colleague had nipped home for lunch) .If it was ITV i guess it might have been On The Ball with Saint and Greavsie.If it was BBC it would've been Football Focus.
Yeah. News to me too. There seemed to be a real NO fan in the BBC Sounds department in the late 80s/early 90s, as their music seemed to be used for a whole host of things (I remember once hearing the instrumental of TLU on a programme showing whales swimming in the ocean). I always assumed that this person was making edits etc. Maybe the band were supplying things like this to the Beeb.
perspexorange wrote:
As regards 'Skullcrusher', I quite like the piece (more so than 'Sputnik', which is nice but feels a bit pointless, in my humble opinion). Considering it made its first live appearance in 1984 (three years before 'Salvation'), it's possible that a studio version of this track might've been attempted around Low Life. So, I guess, there's a slight possibility that something Skullcrushery could turn up on this next set.
Hey, who knows? Maybe there's a studio version of 'Love Juice' out there?
I know Johnny James probably wants to (understandably) stay tight-lipped regarding the contents of the Low Life set until officially announced. However, if he could shed light on when studio versions of the Salvation tracks were attempted, that'd be interesting. Also, if he has any info about whether 'Sputnik'/'Salvation' were from a longer bit of music etc?
So, it looks like I was correct in my assumption that Skullcrusher might've been attempted at the time of Low Life, with a demo appearing as track 14 on CD2.
I wonder if it's instrumental or one with lyrics.
Looking at the listing for CD2, and based on the format of Power, Corruption & Lies 'writing session' tracks, it seems possible that 'Sooner Than You Think – Album Session Unedited Version' (*) might be the only track with vocals on that disc.
* Incidentally, this is what the New Order Store calls it. Qobuz is listing it as 'Sooner Than You Think (Full Length Version)'. Semantics, I know.
Well, what a fantastic time to be a New Order fan.
This album, probably more than any of the others, is the moment where the band became what most of us came to know and truly love about NO.
Just listening to the Cargo demos on my way home. My word. They were magnificent. Best band ever.
perspexorange wrote:
This album, probably more than any of the others, is the moment where the band became what most of us came to know and truly love about NO.
Yes, it was probably the album i excitedly anticipated more than any other music in my life as it would be the first new album by them after i had got into the band as a teenager.And obviously i was at a young and impressionable age.
I've had a hunt around for the edition of Grandstand World Cup Football Focus from 31.05.86 to see if i could locate this football montage with the alternative version of LV my work colleague had told me about way back then and which i mentioned in an earlier post in this thread,But nothing found![[ohwell]](/emoticons/ohwell.gif){kind=small}
.I'm slightly surprised i've never ever seen mention of this clip in all the years.I only knew about it because my colleague had seen it at the time.I found this website that mentions that on the opening day of World Cup 86 there was Football Focus section of Grandstand from 12.35pm to 1pm.I'd wager my house that that was where the LV alternative , or "TV Pitch" version was used during a montage. BBC tended to use NO music more than ITV and i lean towards if NO were making tracks for use for TV in Sport it'd have been to BBC (mind you , Best & Marsh was ITV So that kind of scotches that theory!) .From this blog it states
"Sat 31/May/1986 "Saint & Greavsie's World Cup"*Ian St John and Jimmy Greaves previewed the World Cup 7 hours before kick-off at 12:05-12:30pm, ITV also showed a schoolboys international at Wembley between England and Italy at 2:45-5:00pm with Brian Moore & Ian St John commentating. BBC1 previewed the tournament during "Grandstand" with a World Cup 'Football Focus' at 12:35-1:00pm."
You have your sources, perspex, any chance you could ask around if anyone has this? Someone must have it.
I’ll do some asking around.
Credit to you Fotz for doing a bit of research on dates etc. That will help narrow things down a bit.
I ordered the crystal TPK 12" last week and left it at that: I don't know what the justification is for them charging £60 more than PC&L for the standard boxset but I'm in no rush to pay that much for it.
I think that the box sets were initially on the store as follows:
Movement (April 2019) £120.00 Power, Corruption & Lies (October 2020) £112.99 Low Life (January 2023) £149.99
So, the increase to £149.99, although fairly hefty, isn't as bad as £60. An increase of £30 in almost four years on Movement, so about £7.50 per year inflation. Not that bad, when you think about it that way. Especially considering the current economic crisis.
I guess they can afford to sell the previous two sets at a discounted price a) because they may well have covered their costs, profit margins etc. by now and b) they want to sell off excess stock.
All that being said, I totally get the fact that this is a pricey article, and there's a certain amount of sense in waiting for the inevitable price drop.
I will be getting on day of release though. I'm not exactly patient and want to get my hands on this stuff straight away. Besides, I'm also always worried that these things might sell out before I get my hands on them (just because they have stock of the older sets still, doesn't necessarily mean that they will have the same number of sets of Low Life in their warehouse in a few months time).
I remember deciding to wait for a significant price drop on one of the Bowie 'era' box sets ('Loving The Alien'). That never really happened, and the set is now discontinued (much to my annoyance). Previous sets hung around for ages and prices dropped considerably.
perspexorange wrote: I think that the box sets were initially on the store as follows:
Movement (April 2019) £120.00 Power, Corruption & Lies (October 2020) £112.99 Low Life (January 2023) £149.99
I ordered the first two on Amazon UK pre-order as soon as they were available. They do the thing where they don't charge you until despatch AND they charge you the cheapest price it dropped to in the interim
Just checked and my Movement box cost £89.22 and PCL cost £90.93
So both ended up being £20-£30 cheaper than the initial retail price
Annoying, as I'd rather not use Amazon from an ethical point of view - but they make it hard with stuff like this!
If you order from the NO Store you pay up front and you have to watch in horror if the price drops elsewhere
I'm afraid I had a bad experience with the New Order Store (run by Warner Bros, actually) a couple of years ago on a "Blue Monday Sale" order. The product didn't appear and it took a couple of months for them to send a replacement order. Since then, the site never seems able to retrieve my account info. I haven't changed my email or password, but always get the "Invalid Login" error. I've clicked the "Forgot Password" button to change it in the UK and US stores but never receive the appropriate email to do so.
But again, the Guest option works as I've since received orders of a Taras shirt and two New Order Crew shirts (one from each region's store - they are identical, by the way) with no issues. But unless there's a NewOrderStore exclusive (like The Perfect Kiss 12"), I'll end up using Amazon.
Andy wrote: I'm afraid I had a bad experience with the New Order Store (run by Warner Bros, actually) a couple of years ago on a "Blue Monday Sale" order. The product didn't appear and it took a couple of months for them to send a replacement order. Since then, the site never seems able to retrieve my account info. I haven't changed my email or password, but always get the "Invalid Login" error. I've clicked the "Forgot Password" button to change it in the UK and US stores but never receive the appropriate email to do so.
But again, the Guest option works as I've since received orders of a Taras shirt and two New Order Crew shirts (one from each region's store - they are identical, by the way) with no issues. But unless there's a NewOrderStore exclusive (like The Perfect Kiss 12"), I'll end up using Amazon.
i had similar issues (but not a bad experience).
the only reason i did order from the new order store, was for the exclusives.
although, they will end up on discogs, and ebay too.
this time, i just wanted to get EVERYTHING all in one place at one time.
NOTE : i tried ordering all the same items from the US store, and it came out HIGHER than it did from the UK one? weird...
later -1
Andy wrote: ....the site never seems able to retrieve my account info. I haven't changed my email or password, but always get the "Invalid Login" error. I've clicked the "Forgot Password" button to change it in the UK .....but never receive the appropriate email to do so.
But again, the Guest option works.... But unless there's a NewOrderStore exclusive (like The Perfect Kiss 12"), I'll end up using Amazon.
Yep, exactly same for me.
I hope the price hike doesn't prevent ongoing releases. By the time Technique comes around it could be 200+, especially with cost of living crisis and all that as I'm currently removing slats from my lodgers bed to use for firewood.
I got the Movement box set for about 70 recently but as beautiful as it is I've only listened/watched it once. The video stuff is not really interesting to me. I remember recording Edinburgh/Glasgow/Leeds in early 1985 so had the good fortune (or not) of hearing the LowLife tracks in advance. Always felt Face Upcame off better live.
Johnny James wrote:
50poundnote wrote: Johnny, can you explain the decision not to include the finished vocal version of Let's Go?
I have a cleaned up version that sounds fantastic considering it's sourced from an old cassette. Was it left off the album at the last minute to 1. make room for an edit of The Perfect Kiss, or 2. because it sounds too similar to Sooner Than You Think?
I guess the easiest explanation is that the instrumental had more chance of getting through, rejected vocals are not particularly favoured. As you say, there is a pretty clear leaked version out there, so now you get a completely unheard instrumental instead.
Where can you hear the cleaned up original vocal version of Let's Go? The only version mp3 ever heard had terrible sound quality.
Really hoping let’s go is issued on vinyl as some sort of record store day. Vocal one side instrumental the other.
Thinking again about the £149 price.... i mean, really? I know, i know, inflation, and i presume rising production costs for these kind of things and all that.Just find it very steep.And the thing is with this box is i already have and watched umpteen times back in the day the Tokyo and Leuven videos ( though obviously never seen Confusion from the latter) and the Whistle Test stuff ( though of course not Face Up).On release day in January i'll be able to listen to the previously unreleased and unheard extras on Spotify or Amazon Music streaming anyway, i wouldn't need to buy the box to hear that stuff.Then there's the book, yeah i'd love to see that of course and the Rotterdam and Toronto gigs on one of the DVDs but i'm not as excitedly waiting to see those as i was the Peppermint Lounge and Hurrah footage on the Movement box and the Kilkenny and Hacienda 82 and 83 stuff on the PCL one.I just feel right now that this will be the first of the Definitive boxes i won't pre order before release day unless the price has dramatically dropped by then.I will buy the box eventually but it may not be until many months after release when the price has, hopefully, come right down.
Sorry to sound negative about it and i do appreciate all the work Johnny and everyone involved has put into this release.
Fotz wrote: Thinking again about the £149 price.... i mean, really? I know, i know, inflation, and i presume rising production costs for these kind of things and all that.Just find it very steep.And the thing is with this box is i already have and watched umpteen times back in the day the Tokyo and Leuven videos ( though obviously never seen Confusion from the latter) and the Whistle Test stuff ( though of course not Face Up).On release day in January i'll be able to listen to the previously unreleased and unheard extras on Spotify or Amazon Music streaming anyway, i wouldn't need to buy the box to hear that stuff.Then there's the book, yeah i'd love to see that of course and the Rotterdam and Toronto gigs on one of the DVDs but i'm not as excitedly waiting to see those as i was the Peppermint Lounge and Hurrah footage on the Movement box and the Kilkenny and Hacienda 82 and 83 stuff on the PCL one.I just feel right now that this will be the first of the Definitive boxes i won't pre order before release day unless the price has dramatically dropped by then.I will buy the box eventually but it may not be until many months after release when the price has, hopefully, come right down.
Sorry to sound negative about it and i do appreciate all the work Johnny and everyone involved has put into this release.
Very good points. I feel the same
Nice.
Sounds like the instrumental dub version that might have appeared on a 12" B-side had 'Love Vigilantes' ever been released as a single...
"Dub Vigilantes"?
Yep. Great to hear those bits of guitars without vocals over the top. Plus a couple of extra bits.
A full two minutes longer than the LP. Fab indeed.
perspexorange wrote:
A full two minutes longer than the LP. Fab indeed.
Sounds like they did a couple of runs through the instrumental album version, playing about with the volume levels of various parts, then edited the best bits together, as there's parts of the track you hear more than once (like the four snare drum hits at the start of the track, and Barney's fast strumming in the middle of the song, both of which you hear twice in this version).
Mr Discography wrote:
perspexorange wrote:
A full two minutes longer than the LP. Fab indeed.
Sounds like they did a couple of runs through the instrumental album version, playing about with the volume levels of various parts, then edited the best bits together, as there's parts of the track you hear more than once (like the four snare drum hits at the start of the track, and Barney's fast strumming in the middle of the song, both of which you hear twice in this version).
....and technically, it's not an instrumental.
Andy wrote:
Mr Discography wrote:
perspexorange wrote:
A full two minutes longer than the LP. Fab indeed.
Sounds like they did a couple of runs through the instrumental album version, playing about with the volume levels of various parts, then edited the best bits together, as there's parts of the track you hear more than once (like the four snare drum hits at the start of the track, and Barney's fast strumming in the middle of the song, both of which you hear twice in this version).
....and technically, it's not an instrumental.
Well - there are no word/lyrics being sung, beyond the doo-doo-doo backing vocals, but yeah I see your point :)
Weird that they did such a long edit. Like someone might need to do a 6 minute TV montage of something
Love it though!
Andy wrote: [ ....and technically, it's not an instrumental.
Neither is 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental 'in that case.
Mr Discography wrote:
Andy wrote: [ ....and technically, it's not an instrumental.
Neither is 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental 'in that case.
Advantage, Mr D !
Mr Discography wrote: Nice.
Sounds like the instrumental dub version that might have appeared on a 12" B-side had 'Love Vigilantes' ever been released as a single...
"Dub Vigilantes"?
i like it, its an excellent song,
and this instrumental would make a good start for an extended version, to add the vocals back into..
hmmmmm........
====== update a very quick and dirty attempt to add some lyrics back.
the instrumental is 6 bpm faster than the album version, so the vocals sound sped up.
later -1
GotBlueEyes wrote:
Just checked and my Movement box cost £89.22 and PCL cost £90.93
As part of this year's Black Friday sale, both the Movement and PC&L box sets were on sale in the US New Order store for $67.49 each (£56.24 by today's exchange rate) through yesterday (28 November) with free shipping. Buying BOTH boxes together was still $15 cheaper than the US pre-order price for the Low-Life box. So, if you want to save some coin, just stream the Low-life box for 10 months and then order it when Black Friday 2023 comes around! 😎
-Mike
[TWITTER]1599826184589611008[/TWITTER]
My as well post this while we're here (two tracks)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c8U6HNd18E
Another quick promo video for the Low Life def box.
Rorschach wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c8U6HNd18E
Another quick promo video for the Low Life def box.
Just noticed this myself.
Hooky mentions that the sleeve was sealed in tracing paper and you had to rip the sleeve open. He mentioned this back in one of his Jack chats a coup,e of years ago. Don’t think that’s correct is it? Unless the first prints were like that? I think the sleeve was just a wraparound, wasn’t it? No damage required?
Also, it might just be me, but there’s something weird in the way Gillian is sitting that makes her arms look really short. Anyone else think this?
I bought Low Life the week it came out and it was just a normal LP. I think HMV shrinkwrapped their albums but think Hook is as usual misremembering things. No wonder after all that went on.
tapebias wrote: I bought Low Life the week it came out and it was just a normal LP. I think HMV shrinkwrapped their albums but think Hook is as usual misremembering things. No wonder after all that went on.
You didn't get the tracing paper outer sleeve? Like in the images here, which make the outer images of Steve and Gillian less clear than the inner sleeve images of Hook and Sumner? No track listing for you on the back? No "Order New" titling on the front?
Debaser wrote:
tapebias wrote: I bought Low Life the week it came out and it was just a normal LP. I think HMV shrinkwrapped their albums but think Hook is as usual misremembering things. No wonder after all that went on.
You didn't get the tracing paper outer sleeve? Like in the images here, which make the outer images of Steve and Gillian less clear than the inner sleeve images of Hook and Sumner? No track listing for you on the back? No "Order New" titling on the front?
Yes it had all the above but didn't have to be ripped open. Should have said tracing paper sleeve.
Thanks all for confirming my suspicions, i.e. that it was a tracing paper sleeve, but didn't have to be defaced to get to the record.
It's quite possible his memory is being influenced by Factory's sandpaper sleeve for the return of the Durutti Column album.
"A very Factory thing to do..."
Well I'm not swearing to this, so please don't all "rip into" me (pun intended). But...
I may or may not have a memory of the tracing paper being joined inside the sleeve opening, with perforations. So you had to stick a ruler (or equivalent) in there to separate the front from the back.
Anyone got their original Factory vinyl to hand so they can check the neatness of the tracing paper inside the sleeve?
Debaser wrote: I may or may not have a memory of the tracing paper being joined inside the sleeve opening, with perforations. So you had to stick a ruler (or equivalent) in there to separate the front from the back.
No. Hook's memory is faulty here (as usual). The tracing paper was never joined or perforated. It folds neatly inside the cover and the photo credits are printed on the flap tucked into the back. I'm amazed they'd let a (former) band member state an incorrect fact like that in the video, unless the thinking is "don't correct him, leave it in there to make him look silly."
***deleted due to incorrect quotes in my post, which I couldn't change due to being marked as SPAM***
50poundnote wrote: I'm amazed they'd let a (former) band member state an incorrect fact like that in the video, unless the thinking is "don't correct him, leave it in there to make him look silly."
Well, I doubt that any of the other three have even seen Hooky's contribution to pull him up on it.
It seems likely that the producers made the error, and I think it probably is a mistake rather than something deliberate. It's probably that the person creating the video, or interviewing Hooky, didn't know he was wrong. After all, the people behind the video possibly have never owned or seen the original vinyl LP (possibly too young, given that it's almost 40 years ago).
I mean, look at me, I'm as much of a super-fan as you're likely to find, and even I was a bit sketchy on the fine details of this release (I knew it was tracing paper, but doubted the 'ripping' part).
(Incidentally, I have never owned a vinyl copy of the LP. I had the standard cassette first, then the linen box variant, then the original Factory CD and finally the Rhino collectors CD when that was released years later).
Big review in the new issue of Uncut magazine (Neil Young on the cover...dated February 2023 already!). Stephen & Hooky interviewed, and review mentions one of the early rough instrumental jams on the extras disc is an early version of Bizarre Love Triangle
aysie wrote: Big review in the new issue of Uncut magazine (Neil Young on the cover...dated February 2023 already!). Stephen & Hooky interviewed, and review mentions one of the early rough instrumental jams on the extras disc is an early version of Bizarre Love Triangle
Thanks. Will look out for that issue in town tomorrow. Bit odd they didn't save a BLT demo til the Brotherhood box
I think it's an early jam from the Low-life sessions, though. The review says: "Most surprising, though, and demonstrating how prolific they were, might be “Untitled 1”, a discarded writing session workout that sounds very much like it is about to become “Bizarre Love Triangle”, key track to New Order’s next LP, 1986’s Brotherhood."
There’s a couple of tracks available on Spotify.
Love Vigilantes (TV pitch instrumental edit) and The Perfect Kiss (Writing Session Recording).
Mr Discography wrote:
Andy wrote: [ ....and technically, it's not an instrumental.
Neither is 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental 'in that case.
I see this post every time I load this page of the thread ![[happy]](/emoticons/happy.gif){kind=small}
I think an important distinction to make regarding the vocals on "Love Vigilantes TV Pitch Instrumental" is that they're a melodic element to the song. Barney's voice on "Thieves Like Us
Instrumental" is more like a voice sample. I would consider "Murder" an instrumental, for instance, even though it contains voices.
Andy wrote:
Mr Discography wrote:
Andy wrote: [ ....and technically, it's not an instrumental.
Neither is 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental 'in that case.
I see this post every time I load this page of the thread
I think an important distinction to make regarding the vocals on "Love Vigilantes TV Pitch Instrumental" is that they're a melodic element to the song. Barney's voice on "Thieves Like Us
Instrumental" is more like a voice sample. I would consider "Murder" an instrumental, for instance, even though it contains voices.
Do you mean the "Come in" part by Bernard on start of TLU instrumental? If so, yeah i'd agree. But i assumed Mr Discography was referring to the , admittedly slightly low in the mix , " Ooh ooh ooh-ooh/ Ooh ooh ooh-ooh" at around 5.35 to 5.45 ish on the 12" instrumental.
Fotz wrote:
Andy wrote:
Mr Discography wrote:
Andy wrote: [ ....and technically, it's not an instrumental.
Neither is 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental 'in that case.
I see this post every time I load this page of the thread
I think an important distinction to make regarding the vocals on "Love Vigilantes TV Pitch Instrumental" is that they're a melodic element to the song. Barney's voice on "Thieves Like Us
Instrumental" is more like a voice sample. I would consider "Murder" an instrumental, for instance, even though it contains voices.Do you mean the "Come in" part by Bernard on start of TLU instrumental? If so, yeah i'd agree. But i assumed Mr Discography was referring to the , admittedly slightly low in the mix , " Ooh ooh ooh-ooh/ Ooh ooh ooh-ooh" at around 5.35 to 5.45 ish on the 12" instrumental.
Yeah, the "Come in". I forgot about the "Oohs". Definitely not an instrumental! The same goes for "Turning Point' by Electronic.
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