Mapping The Definitive Editions - Low-life

negative1 wrote:

i would like a lot more demos and less live material though.

later -1

Although I'm always keen to hear demos, I'm definitely the opposite to you. They can't put enough live video in these sets, as far as I'm concerned. The video included so far has been incredible. Hurrah's, Haçienda, Kilkenny and especially, Peppermint Lounge was just fantastic. A band in their prime.

As regards demos, I wonder just how much good quality usable stuff there is out there.

If it's as good as the demos on the 'Movement' set, bring it on. However, although I liked the 'writing sessions' included on 'PC&L' (and I was very glad they were on there), I thought they were much less interesting than the 'Movement' ones. Possibly due to the lack of vocals. I've listened to the 'Movement' ones numerous times, but far less so the 'PC&L' ones (although I like that LP better).

Similarly, we've heard quite a few demos of 'Technique'. Although these are interesting, they're mainly just the band noodling away. If the 'demo' material is mostly like this for the next few LPs, it might be difficult legitimately pulling together more than one disc's worth of stuff.

What I'm saying is, I'd be extremely happy with two or three discs of high quality, really interesting demos. But I'd be less likely to want to listen to the same number of discs if it was purely Hooky playing along to backing tracks, trying to come up with a bassline.

I think, in the case of demos (or, indeed, live material), quality must win out over quantity. I have faith in the compilers that they'll produce another brilliant set worthy of the band's legacy.

I'm definitely hoping that we get a version of 'Let's Go' on this set. Preferably a vocal version.

perspexorange wrote:

negative1 wrote:

i would like a lot more demos and less live material though.

later -1

Although I'm always keen to hear demos, I'm definitely the opposite to you. They can't put enough live video in these sets, as far as I'm concerned. The video included so far has been incredible. Hurrah's, Haçienda, Kilkenny and especially, Peppermint Lounge was just fantastic. A band in their prime.

As regards demos, I wonder just how much good quality usable stuff there is out there.

there's hundreds of bootlegs of live recordings, and plenty of soundboards too, so that's why, i could care less about live recorings, i can listen to tons of high quality ones already, and they're just taking up space in the sets.

sure, the videos are rare, but those are the one and done ones for me. i just rip the audio and listen to those if i want to hear them. watching them over and over is not something that i do.

If it's as good as the demos on the 'Movement' set, bring it on. However, although I liked the 'writing sessions' included on 'PC&L' (and I was very glad they were on there), I thought they were much less interesting than the 'Movement' ones. Possibly due to the lack of vocals. I've listened to the 'Movement' ones numerous times, but far less so the 'PC&L' ones (although I like that LP better).

Similarly, we've heard quite a few demos of 'Technique'. Although these are interesting, they're mainly just the band noodling away. If the 'demo' material is mostly like this for the next few LPs, it might be difficult legitimately pulling together more than one disc's worth of stuff.

What I'm saying is, I'd be extremely happy with two or three discs of high quality, really interesting demos. But I'd be less likely to want to listen to the same number of discs if it was purely Hooky playing along to backing tracks, trying to come up with a bassline.

I think, in the case of demos (or, indeed, live material), quality must win out over quantity. I have faith in the compilers that they'll produce another brilliant set worthy of the band's legacy.

I'm definitely hoping that we get a version of 'Let's Go' on this set. Preferably a vocal version.

well from what they've put there's no end to the amount of demos and sessions. the more the better.

later -1

negative1 wrote:

there's hundreds of bootlegs of live recordings...

Yep, but they're all different...

I know that can also be the case with demos, and I'm not arguing that we shouldn't hear these.

But if there are five different demos of 'Sub-Culture' out there, I don't think we desperately need to hear these if they're only marginally different. If they're very different, yeah, let's hear them. I think there's an argument that, if you put too much of the same stuff on a set, it runs the risk of becoming of less interest to a lot of people. In my opinion, it would just detract from the listening pleasure, wading through things too similar. Your mileage may vary, though.

Apart from taxonomy purposes (and I love a bit of that as much as anyone; see some of my posts ), I don't see much merit in having four versions of one track, with differences being things as minor as 'slightly louder guitar' or 'more echoey vocals'.

Unless substantially different, one or two demos of each track is fine by me.

It's not just demos though. Similarly, when they're filling up the DVDs with 'bonus video footage' (rather than complete gigs), I wouldn't expect that they'd include five different live versions of 'Sub-Culture', all from the 1985 tour. Although they'd likely be fairly different (given the band's penchant for 'improvisation'), it'd make for a fairly dull experience, listening to the same track over and over again.

negative1 wrote:

well from what they've put there's no end to the amount of demos and sessions. the more the better.

I can't imagine there's tonnes of 'quality' stuff out there, unless you know differently. I'd be very happy to be proved wrong though.

I agree with the Orange. A glut of similar demos wouldn't appeal to most people, and anyway, we've got bootlegs and YouTube for that. I have a Beatles bootleg featuring Cilla Black going through Step Outside Love with Paul's assistance again and again, followed by TWENTY ONE attempts at Cum and Get It. Fine for obsessives like me, but...

I also enjoy the demos pretty much. My guesses for the DVD(s) would be BBC's Saturday Live '84 and Leuven '85, the latter being recently "remastered" for official streaming on Amazon, no?

Mr. Disco wrote: I also enjoy the demos pretty much. My guesses for the DVD(s) would be BBC's Saturday Live '84 and Leuven '85, the latter being recently "remastered" for official streaming on Amazon, no?

Leuven has been remastered and is on Amazon? Wasn’t aware of that!

I enjoyed the demos on the Movement box immensely more than the ones on the PC&L box though the TLU ones are great.

Fotz wrote: Leuven has been remastered and is on Amazon? Wasn’t aware of that!

Check it out:

https://www.amazon.com/New-Order-Rox-Box/dp/B07YYQKVSR

Fotz wrote: I enjoyed the demos on the Movement box immensely more than the ones on the PC&L box though the TLU ones are great.

The Movement ones are way better indeed 👍

Mr. Disco wrote:

Fotz wrote: Leuven has been remastered and is on Amazon? Wasn’t aware of that!

Check it out:

https://www.amazon.com/New-Order-Rox-Box/dp/B07YYQKVSR

Wow, never knew that.However, i have a feeling it's not available in UK? I have a one month free Amazon Prime right now but that link takes me to a page stating i'd have to have an American billing address for Stingray Qello or something.No entry for me.

It's not available on my region as well... but I'm pretty confident we'll have it in the Low-Life box

[Edit] I sincerely hope they don't put PFD there, just like they did with the 2nd Peel Session.

I may be in the minority here, but I’m kind of hoping for a different gig than Leuven.

It’s actually one of my absolute favourites, but I’ve seen it a lot (especially in recent months since appearing on Qello etc.).

So, I guess, I think I’d rather see a different gig. That being said, I wouldn’t be disappointed if it was included and would totally understand it’s inclusion. It’s a classic gig after all.

Fotz wrote:

Mr. Disco wrote:

Fotz wrote: Leuven has been remastered and is on Amazon? Wasn’t aware of that!

Check it out:

https://www.amazon.com/New-Order-Rox-Box/dp/B07YYQKVSR

Wow, never knew that.However, i have a feeling it's not available in UK? I have a one month free Amazon Prime right now but that link takes me to a page stating i'd have to have an American billing address for Stingray Qello or something.No entry for me.

I was getting that too in the UK, but his link seems to take you to a Qello free trial sign-up page that accepts UK£

https://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Order-Rox-Box/dp/B07ZTVLZBJ/ref=sr\_1\_1?dchild=1&keywords=new+order&qid=1612436361&s=instant-video&sr=1-1

I sincerely hope they do include PFD on there, as as far as I can remember, its only been officially released on DVD in Japan and NZ/Aus. My DVD of it also has a crack in, and I don't fancy tracking down a 20 year old pop music DVD only released in three countries if I can help it.

Video material : Tokyo, Leuven, Rotterdam, Toronto. I do wish the whole of Stephen's single-camera camcorder archive would get uploaded to YT though, rather than one or two songs each as box set extras.

Audio : hopefully we can get the rough mix of "Sunrise", one of the "Perfect Kiss" rehearsals (I think the VHS/DVD, 12", and 2008 bonus disc have different takes on, if you listen to the ending), one of the longer Razormaid mixes of "Subculture" as its got different Hooky bass on, and tbh, lots of demos. I suspect "Lets Go" and "Skullcrusher" were also demo'ed at this time given that they were played live.

There's no mileage in listening to say, 17 different mixes of "Face Up" with different bass takes on. There's an 18 track GNR leak, with a 3 minute song, and 17 different versions of the guitar solo on. That's not interesting even if you like GNR.

markreed wrote: I do wish the whole of Stephen's single-camera camcorder archive would get uploaded to YT though, rather than one or two songs each as box set extras.

This. Totally. I couldn't agree more.

Even if the quality isn't the best on all the tracks, I'd still love to see them. Put the 'best' on the box sets. Put the 'rest' on YouTube, a few weeks after each set is released (so as not to impact sales).

markreed wrote:

Video material : Tokyo, Leuven, Rotterdam, Toronto. I do wish the whole of Stephen's single-camera camcorder archive would get uploaded to YT though, rather than one or two songs each as box set extras.

I'd love to see the full Toronto gig. That footage on the Glasgow DVD, and especially that TPK footage on YouTube is stunning.

markreed wrote: I suspect "Lets Go" and "Skullcrusher" were also demo'ed at this time given that they were played live.

I'm pretty sure 'Let's Go' was demoed as it was due to be on 'Low Life' before being substituted for The Perfect Kiss. I suspect that the 'Waiting For So Long' vocal version is from the 'Low Life' sessions.

markreed wrote:

There's no mileage in listening to say, 17 different mixes of "Face Up" with different bass takes on. There's an 18 track GNR leak, with a 3 minute song, and 17 different versions of the guitar solo on. That's not interesting even if you like GNR.

Again, I totally agree. Of course, the completist in me would like everything that's in the archive. However, realistically, the set has to be limited to a set number of discs. There's little to no point in filling these with a huge number of demos that are practically the same. If, indeed, a wealth of demo material exists, which I doubt.

Hopefully, though, there's at least one demo for each track on the LP, plus ones of any other appropriate tracks (Let's Go, Shellshock etc.).

perspexorange wrote:

markreed wrote: I do wish the whole of Stephen's single-camera camcorder archive would get uploaded to YT though, rather than one or two songs each as box set extras.

This. Totally. I couldn't agree more.

Even if the quality isn't the best on all the tracks, I'd still love to see them. Put the 'best' on the box sets. Put the 'rest' on YouTube, a few weeks after each set is released (so as not to impact sales).

markreed wrote:

Video material : Tokyo, Leuven, Rotterdam, Toronto. I do wish the whole of Stephen's single-camera camcorder archive would get uploaded to YT though, rather than one or two songs each as box set extras.

I'd love to see the full Toronto gig. That footage on the Glasgow DVD, and especially that TPK footage on YouTube is stunning.

markreed wrote: I suspect "Lets Go" and "Skullcrusher" were also demo'ed at this time given that they were played live.

I'm pretty sure 'Let's Go' was demoed as it was due to be on 'Low Life' before being substituted for The Perfect Kiss. I suspect that the 'Waiting For So Long' vocal version is from the 'Low Life' sessions.

markreed wrote:

There's no mileage in listening to say, 17 different mixes of "Face Up" with different bass takes on. There's an 18 track GNR leak, with a 3 minute song, and 17 different versions of the guitar solo on. That's not interesting even if you like GNR.

Again, I totally agree. Of course, the completist in me would like everything that's in the archive. However, realistically, the set has to be limited to a set number of discs. There's little to no point in filling these with a huge number of demos that are practically the same. If, indeed, a wealth of demo material exists, which I doubt.

Hopefully, though, there's at least one demo for each track on the LP, plus ones of any other appropriate tracks (Let's Go, Shellshock etc.).

It gets a bit tricky around "Shame Of The Nation" and the demo of "As It Is, When It Was" as both (technically) appear in some form on the Brotherhood CD, but were recorded for a provisional Japan-only EP around the time of the May 1985 tour. The A-side version of "State" is, I think, a complete re-recording from 1986. I tried putting Shame/State together in extended form, and the sonics are so different it was unlistenable.

markreed wrote:

It gets a bit tricky around "Shame Of The Nation" and the demo of "As It Is, When It Was" as both (technically) appear in some form on the Brotherhood CD, but were recorded for a provisional Japan-only EP around the time of the May 1985 tour. The A-side version of "State" is, I think, a complete re-recording from 1986. I tried putting Shame/State together in extended form, and the sonics are so different it was unlistenable.

Hmm, I have a vague memory of talking about this before with someone, but can't remember who I was talking to or what we determined. It was possibly on this forum or by email. Wish I could remember.

So, there were at least two tracks to be included on this EP ('AIIWIW' and 'Shame')? So 'Shame' was recorded at a different point to 'State'? Is there a demo lurking around of 'Shame'?

Any idea what the other tracks on the EP may have been ('Let's Go' possibly)?

Skullcrusher / Solitude is certainly from that era, live-wise at least (first played 31/03/84) Weirdo too (first played 16/07/85)

There's also Love Juice . First played live 23/05/85

Can you imagine how bad demo versions of State of the Nation and Shellshock must be compared to the woeful finished ones. Subculture-Shellshock-State were an unholy trinity of bad singles in a row.

The only thing that kept my faith was I had a tape of BLT live at Hemel Hampstead 85 so knew they must just being going through a spell of taking too many drugs and/or hanging out with John Robie and would be out of their system soon.

perspexorange wrote:

markreed wrote:

It gets a bit tricky around "Shame Of The Nation" and the demo of "As It Is, When It Was" as both (technically) appear in some form on the Brotherhood CD, but were recorded for a provisional Japan-only EP around the time of the May 1985 tour. The A-side version of "State" is, I think, a complete re-recording from 1986. I tried putting Shame/State together in extended form, and the sonics are so different it was unlistenable.

Hmm, I have a vague memory of talking about this before with someone, but can't remember who I was talking to or what we determined. It was possibly on this forum or by email. Wish I could remember.

So, there were at least two tracks to be included on this EP ('AIIWIW' and 'Shame')? So 'Shame' was recorded at a different point to 'State'? Is there a demo lurking around of 'Shame'?

Any idea what the other tracks on the EP may have been ('Let's Go' possibly)?

Skullcrusher / Solitude is certainly from that era, live-wise at least (first played 31/03/84) Weirdo too (first played 16/07/85)

There's also Love Juice . First played live 23/05/85

In the Hooky book he suggests that this recording session was "some point around Brotherhood" when they used a session in Japan to record the two songs, and to mix the Pumped Full Of Drugs soundtrack, with "State Of The Nation" (produced by New Order) being described only as a "newer version". Presumably they weren't happy with the recording of "Shame" produced by John Robie and relegated it to the B-side. I seem to remember hearing this early version of "As It Was" on a bootleg tape about 30 years but no idea where that is now.

Thanks for the info.

I must've read that at the time (when reading Hooky's book), but have since forgotten it.

I have the AIIWIW demo digitally, but it's a pretty poor recording. You're right - it must've been doing the rounds for 30+ years. Think I originally had it on an old cassette back in the day too.

To be fair, it's not much different from the Brotherhood version (as you'd expect, based on the style of the song).

perspexorange wrote: Thanks for the info.

I must've read that at the time (when reading Hooky's book), but have since forgotten it.

I have the AIIWIW demo digitally, but it's a pretty poor recording. You're right - it must've been doing the rounds for 30+ years. Think I originally had it on an old cassette back in the day too.

To be fair, it's not much different from the Brotherhood version (as you'd expect, based on the style of the song).

I just checked the inner sleeve of "State Of The Nation" - the A side appears to have been recorded in Japan in April 1985 and the B-side Shame recorded in London, Manchester and LA between October 1985-April 1986. Looks like they worked too hard on that song!

for once, i'm on the opposite site of the spectrum.

i loved the subculture mixes, stutter effects and all. and of course the 'truer' razormaid remixes, which elevated the album version for those that didn't want the fancy effects, disco beat, and soul vocalists (although a couple of the razormaid mixes did have a lady singing at the end).

and since there was no album on the horizon, we got both of the incredibly cool non-album tracks, of 'state of the nation', and 'shellshock'.

at this point, i couldn't recognize a saville cover instantly, or new order artwork, but as soon as i saw them, i knew i had to find out what they were (alex!), and of course they were new order. so they already had me at the artwork.

state of the nation was cool in its downbeat tone, and lyrics, and shellshock has a unique sound to it that no other group besides them could do, and of course both of them were extended beautifully. i didn't get the 7 inches for any of these until many years later.

so yeah, new order might have been in a decline for some people, and even for me, brotherhood was the last straw for their albums, after low-life was decent, so i guess it was foretelling the direction they were going to go in, at least to me.

later -1

When I first discovered New Order properly (through Substance), I really liked the remix of ‘Sub-Culture’. When I heard the ‘proper’ version on ‘Low Life’ I rapidly went off the remix. I don’t mind it now but it pales in comparison to the LP version.

‘State Of The Nation’ was one of only a handful of tracks I really disliked back in the day (alongside ‘Face Up’ and ‘Every Little Counts’). The years have been kind to all of those three tracks for me, and I like them all now (I will point out, I only ever had a problem with the LP version of ‘Face Up’; live versions always sound brilliant).

Shellshock, I’ve always loved.

As regards the woman wailing on the Razormaid remixes of Sub-Culture, that’s Deborah Iyall of the band Romeo Void.

They had a hit with the (rather good) ‘Never Say Never’ back in 1982.

Here's the only remix of Subculture worth anytime in your life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT-vfjAH1wM&ab\_channel=NoiseRecords

The e-e-e-e-edit! of the John Robie TIGHT! mix .... all those mixes are utter garbage. "Dubvulture" is the worst New Order b-side of the Factory years, chased up very tightly by "Shame Of The Nation" and "Shellcock", the common denominator between all three being John Robie.

I always find it laughable that when John Robie appears in NewOrderStory during his intro, he's clearly playing some new track he's very proud of because he's knows he's going to be on the New Order documentary ..... nobody would play a song they didn't think was any good... and the track is playing is boring.

markreed wrote: I sincerely hope they do include PFD on there, as as far as I can remember, its only been officially released on DVD in Japan and NZ/Aus. My DVD of it also has a crack in, and I don't fancy tracking down a 20 year old pop music DVD only released in three countries if I can help it.

Video material : Tokyo, Leuven, Rotterdam, Toronto. I do wish the whole of Stephen's single-camera camcorder archive would get uploaded to YT though, rather than one or two songs each as box set extras.

Audio : hopefully we can get the rough mix of "Sunrise", one of the "Perfect Kiss" rehearsals (I think the VHS/DVD, 12", and 2008 bonus disc have different takes on, if you listen to the ending), one of the longer Razormaid mixes of "Subculture" as its got different Hooky bass on, and tbh, lots of demos. I suspect "Lets Go" and "Skullcrusher" were also demo'ed at this time given that they were played live.

There's no mileage in listening to say, 17 different mixes of "Face Up" with different bass takes on. There's an 18 track GNR leak, with a 3 minute song, and 17 different versions of the guitar solo on. That's not interesting even if you like GNR.

I would speculate that the previous night at the same venue may have also been documented as a practice run/dress rehearsal for the video production. Can anyone confirm this?

Audio of the 3 tracks omitted from the PFD video: Dime

Here’s an interesting thing about PFD.

Did you know that the DVD version is a slightly different video mix to the VHS? There are certain bits we here different camera angles are used. I can’t remember where exactly, but they’re definitely subtly different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgAajOf4YSM One of the funniest moments of my life was a 'Best Of NO' review saying, 'If you can tell between R+R 94 and the original, you need to get out more.' Because I could and did. But those days are over. Only the Beatles, the Sex Pistols and the Spice Girls deserve my brain cell.

perspexorange wrote: Here’s an interesting thing about PFD.

Did you know that the DVD version is a slightly different video mix to the VHS? There are certain bits we here different camera angles are used. I can’t remember where exactly, but they’re definitely subtly different.

I have the DVD from Japan, but my VHS copy, and a means of playing it, are long gone.

...and "interesting" is subjective (heresy to a collector, I know).

It would be brilliant if any live footage for the DVD's could be cleaned up using AI and upscaled to (at least) 1080p and 60fps, the video's on Youtube where this has been done (for the odd song here and there) look amazing!!

I don't have a clue how much time this would take or how much it would cost - so may be prohibitive... Am very grateful for all the time and effort that has been put into the boxsets already...

Andy wrote:

...and "interesting" is subjective (heresy to a collector, I know).

I dunno guys. I come here to talk a bit of New Order (weird eh?) and it seems that this is getting up people's noses a bit.

Sorry I spoke...

perspexorange wrote:

Andy wrote:

...and "interesting" is subjective (heresy to a collector, I know).

I dunno guys. I come here to talk a bit of New Order (weird eh?) and it seems that this is getting up people's noses a bit.

Sorry I spoke...

well until someone checks we won't know.

i'm still getting vhs, dvds, and many other items right now, so it's all relevant to me , if there are differences, and they will show up.

later -1

My VHS is also gone. All I have is the DVD, so its hard to spot any differences throughout the gig, but that intro most certainly wasn't on the original tape: