Mapping The Definitive Editions - Low-life

Does Skullcrusher fit on here? They were certainly playing it live around that time (with lyrics) and we know Let's Go (also on the Salvation! OST) dates back to 84/85 too and a studio version exists from the Lowlife sessions, wonder if they demo'ed Skullcrusher back then too?

Did the BBC film the whole of the (first) set at Hacienda,December 85? That Whistle Test thing. Has to be on the box if it exists.

Fotz wrote: Did the BBC film the whole of the (first) set at Hacienda,December 85? That Whistle Test thing. Has to be on the box if it exists.

Sadly, Johnny James confirmed that the BBC stopped filming part way through the third track. It’s a real shame because it looked like an awesome gig. That version of ‘Sunrise’ is one of my favourite live renditions.

Johnny James wrote:

perspexorange wrote: Thanks.

One I’d love to see is the complete gig from December 1985 (i.e. the one that was partly broadcast on The Old Grey Whistle Test).

Unfortunately the BBC stopped filmed part way through Face Up.

50poundnote wrote: Low-life with The Perfect Kiss and Subculture

Brotherhood with Shellshock, State Of The Nation, and Bizarre Love Triangle

Substance with True Faith, TF Remix, Touched By The Hand Of God, and Blue Monday '88

(Rolls Touched By The Hand Of God and Blue Monday '88 in on an extra CD, but preserves the track list of the original more or less)

Technique with Fine Time, FT Remix, Round & Round, Round & Remix, Run 2, World In Motion, and WIM Remix

(All the remaining remixes rolled in across 2 additional CDs)

If they follow the Collector's Edition bonus disc format, and are going to keep to 4 x 12" reissues alongside each box, it might be more like:

Low-Life: TPK / Sub-culture / Shellshock / State of the Nation (seems wrong I know) Brotherhood: BLT / True Faith / Touched by the Hand of God / Blue Monday 88 Technique: Fine Time / Round and Round / Run 2 / World in Motion

And then if they do Substance, they might bundle it with the remix 12"s: True Faith remix, Fine Time remix, R&R remix, World in Motion remix.

Some of those timeframes are jarringly wrong, but it reflects what they did before and would make it a neat set of releases.

M1 wrote:

50poundnote wrote: Low-life with The Perfect Kiss and Subculture

Brotherhood with Shellshock, State Of The Nation, and Bizarre Love Triangle

Substance with True Faith, TF Remix, Touched By The Hand Of God, and Blue Monday '88

(Rolls Touched By The Hand Of God and Blue Monday '88 in on an extra CD, but preserves the track list of the original more or less)

Technique with Fine Time, FT Remix, Round & Round, Round & Remix, Run 2, World In Motion, and WIM Remix

(All the remaining remixes rolled in across 2 additional CDs)

If they follow the Collector's Edition bonus disc format, and are going to keep to 4 x 12" reissues alongside each box, it might be more like:

Low-Life: TPK / Sub-culture / Shellshock / State of the Nation (seems wrong I know) Brotherhood: BLT / True Faith / Touched by the Hand of God / Blue Monday 88 Technique: Fine Time / Round and Round / Run 2 / World in Motion

And then if they do Substance, they might bundle it with the remix 12"s: True Faith remix, Fine Time remix, R&R remix, World in Motion remix.

Some of those timeframes are jarringly wrong, but it reflects what they did before and would make it a neat set of releases.

I know I'm jumping the gun here quite a bit, but let's add Republic to the list too! In my dream of dreams, we'd get a bonus disc of all the tracks pre-Barney. Not that I don't love the final product, but it would be fantastic to hear the original versions after all these years...

M1 wrote: Low-Life: TPK / Sub-culture / Shellshock / State of the Nation (seems wrong I know) Brotherhood: BLT / True Faith / Touched by the Hand of God / Blue Monday 88 Technique: Fine Time / Round and Round / Run 2 / World in Motion

And then if they do Substance, they might bundle it with the remix 12"s: True Faith remix, Fine Time remix, R&R remix, World in Motion remix.

Some of those timeframes are jarringly wrong, but it reflects what they did before and would make it a neat set of releases.

Nothing says they have to release 4 singles alongside each box, especially when it knocks the timeline out of whack.

Substance will surely be released between Brotherhood and Technique, where it belongs. It's just as much canon as any of the studio albums, and that's where these new single remasters will see a CD release.

50poundnote wrote:

M1 wrote: Low-Life: TPK / Sub-culture / Shellshock / State of the Nation (seems wrong I know) Brotherhood: BLT / True Faith / Touched by the Hand of God / Blue Monday 88 Technique: Fine Time / Round and Round / Run 2 / World in Motion

And then if they do Substance, they might bundle it with the remix 12"s: True Faith remix, Fine Time remix, R&R remix, World in Motion remix.

Some of those timeframes are jarringly wrong, but it reflects what they did before and would make it a neat set of releases.

Nothing says they have to release 4 singles alongside each box, especially when it knocks the timeline out of whack.

Substance will surely be released between Brotherhood and Technique, where it belongs. It's just as much canon as any of the studio albums, and that's where these new single remasters will see a CD release.

They didn't give Substance a reissue for the Collectors Editions, so they have form in not equating it with the studio albums. Fingers crossed it does get the deluxe treatment though. I wouldn't object if they retooled it to mop up the Factory era 12"s. Side E: Touched / BM98 / Fine Time; Side F: R&R / Run2 / WiM

I just hope it's not another 19 months until the 'Low-life' set gets released. One every six months please!

M1 wrote: ]They didn't give Substance a reissue for the Collectors Editions, so they have form in not equating it with the studio albums. Fingers crossed it does get the deluxe treatment though. I wouldn't object if they retooled it to mop up the Factory era 12"s. Side E: Touched / BM98 / Fine Time; Side F: R&R / Run2 / WiM

It's wonderful that we even have this to debate. :D

Just remembered when i stumbled across it again when looking through some files on my laptop.That 'unknown and fairly advanced synth and sequencer song that never made it' one .The info on the file which i got from somewhere a couple of years back dates it as September 1984.So around the time they would have been near to getting into the studio to record Low Life in Autumn that year.Be good if they have a better audio of that one or could clean up what exists and include it on a Low Life definitive box.The recording is around 11-12 minutes long and has some great ideas and melodies in places and that car screeching skidding noise they used on Perfect Kiss at gigs.First heard it a couple years ago when i obtained the file.Just a thought.

Fotz wrote: Just remembered when i stumbled across it again when looking through some files on my laptop.That 'unknown and fairly advanced synth and sequencer song that never made it' one .The info on the file which i got from somewhere a couple of years back dates it as September 1984.So around the time they would have been near to getting into the studio to record Low Life in Autumn that year.Be good if they have a better audio of that one or could clean up what exists and include it on a Low Life definitive box.The recording is around 11-12 minutes long and has some great ideas and melodies in places and that car screeching skidding noise they used on Perfect Kiss at gigs.First heard it a couple years ago when i obtained the file.Just a thought.

What's this track you're referring to here?

I'm guessing Fotz is referring to the 12 minute track that is sometimes included on 'rehearsals' bootlegs of the band.

It's been labelled as from a rehearsal dated 02/09/84 and there are other early versions of different songs from the same date, including 'Paradise', 'Love Vigilantes' and 'This Time Of Night'.

If you haven't heard it, just send me a PM and I'll wing it (and the rest of the rehearsals) over to you. Same goes for anyone else that wants to hear these.

Mr Discography wrote:

Fotz wrote: Just remembered when i stumbled across it again when looking through some files on my laptop.That 'unknown and fairly advanced synth and sequencer song that never made it' one .The info on the file which i got from somewhere a couple of years back dates it as September 1984.So around the time they would have been near to getting into the studio to record Low Life in Autumn that year.Be good if they have a better audio of that one or could clean up what exists and include it on a Low Life definitive box.The recording is around 11-12 minutes long and has some great ideas and melodies in places and that car screeching skidding noise they used on Perfect Kiss at gigs.First heard it a couple years ago when i obtained the file.Just a thought.

What's this track you're referring to here?

Send me a PM with an email adress and I can send it you via WeTransfer

50poundnote wrote:

M1 wrote: Low-Life: TPK / Sub-culture / Shellshock / State of the Nation (seems wrong I know) Brotherhood: BLT / True Faith / Touched by the Hand of God / Blue Monday 88 Technique: Fine Time / Round and Round / Run 2 / World in Motion

And then if they do Substance, they might bundle it with the remix 12"s: True Faith remix, Fine Time remix, R&R remix, World in Motion remix.

Some of those timeframes are jarringly wrong, but it reflects what they did before and would make it a neat set of releases.

Nothing says they have to release 4 singles alongside each box, especially when it knocks the timeline out of whack.

Substance will surely be released between Brotherhood and Technique, where it belongs. It's just as much canon as any of the studio albums, and that's where these new single remasters will see a CD release.

Steve said during the Q and A with Dave Haslam the other night that they were still wondering how to do Substance - with a possibility of expanding and updating it. He said though that it needs remastering so it looks like something will happen.

Ah, thanks DJ Rigby. I wasn't prepared to pay to watch an online book plug, but I did wonder if any good stuff came up, and if it would get mentioned here. I wonder if anyone recorded it.

[TWITTER]1323716249973641219[/TWITTER]

djrigby1969 wrote:

Steve said during the Q and A with Dave Haslam the other night that they were still wondering how to do Substance - with a possibility of expanding and updating it. He said though that it needs remastering so it looks like something will happen.

There’s presumably not a whole lot to do with ‘Substance’ in respect of remastering with most of the tracks being remastered anyway for the various 12”s. I guess the ‘new’ versions of Temptation and Confusion and the ‘exclusive’ edits (Hurt, TPK, SubCulture and Shellshock) will need to done.

Plus any tracks added to a possible expanded version.

Although I love ‘Substance’, as I’ve said before, I’m not sure it needs a full ‘Definitive’ set. Of course, I’d still buy one if released, but I just don’t really see what would be included on both the DVDs and the book that wouldn’t already have been included in a ‘Definitive’ ‘Brotherhood’ set.

Just an expanded, remastered set would do for me.

perspexorange wrote:

Although I love ‘Substance’, as I’ve said before, I’m not sure it needs a full ‘Definitive’ set.

Substance was the gateway drug for me, I don't think it needs any tinkering, its perfect as it is.

The PCL set was beautiful, and Bernard's Renegade mix of 'Be A Rebel' was sublime. Looking forward to the live DVD in April, but need something more to keep me motivated in early 2021... So, Mr James... When's the 'Low-life' definitive boxed-set due..?

Mr Discography wrote: The PCL set was beautiful, and Bernard's Renegade mix of 'Be A Rebel' was sublime. Looking forward to the live DVD in April, but need something more to keep me motivated in early 2021... So, Mr James... When's the 'Low-life' definitive boxed-set due..?

I could say that it's tentatively scheduled for Autumn, but that is so likely to shift. Who really knows.

Johnny James wrote:

Mr Discography wrote: The PCL set was beautiful, and Bernard's Renegade mix of 'Be A Rebel' was sublime. Looking forward to the live DVD in April, but need something more to keep me motivated in early 2021... So, Mr James... When's the 'Low-life' definitive boxed-set due..?

I could say that it's tentatively scheduled for Autumn, but that is so likely to shift. Who really knows.

Thanks for all your work on these sets. A question: The music on the Definitive Editions is available as official, paid downloads, but what about the tracks left off for reasons of space that were available and in consideration?

For years I've favored tangible CDs and records over downloads, but having started an account at Qobuz to buy lossless music otherwise unavailable, I have to admit - it's not that bad.

Have there been any discussions along those lines?

Fractured wrote:

Johnny James wrote:

Mr Discography wrote: The PCL set was beautiful, and Bernard's Renegade mix of 'Be A Rebel' was sublime. Looking forward to the live DVD in April, but need something more to keep me motivated in early 2021... So, Mr James... When's the 'Low-life' definitive boxed-set due..?

I could say that it's tentatively scheduled for Autumn, but that is so likely to shift. Who really knows.

Thanks for all your work on these sets. A question: The music on the Definitive Editions is available as official, paid downloads, but what about the tracks left off for reasons of space that were available and in consideration?

For years I've favored tangible CDs and records over downloads, but having started an account at Qobuz to buy lossless music otherwise unavailable, I have to admit - it's not that bad.

Have there been any discussions along those lines?

There appears to be much debate between concerned parties over what should/shouldn't be included in the sets. To add another layer of approval would probably delay the process.

Andy wrote:

There appears to be much debate between concerned parties over what should/shouldn't be included in the sets. To add another layer of approval would probably delay the process.

But I believe the delays were due to the limits of fitting material on the single CD of bonus tracks, thus keeping the sets within a certain production budget. By releasing everything via paid download sites there is no manufacturing cost involved.

If the Definitive box sets remain a matter of careful negotiation between all parties, perhaps that can't be changed. But since the music exists, and because releasing it for sale affords the band certain copyright protections, there is every advantage to making it available.

For example, for the Movement era, sell lossless versions of:

-Complete Western Works and Cargo demos (One mix of "Dreams Never End" was omitted).

-"Haystack" with Kevin Hewitt.

-All takes from the "Ceremony" sessions and leftover demos omitted from the Definitive edition.

-All sides/versions from the "Ceremony," "Procession," and "Everything's Gone Green" singles (To include both the trio and quartet recordings of "Ceremony," both mixes of "In a Lonely Place," 7" edits of both tracks, and 7" and 12" versions of "EGG" plus "Procession," "Cries and Whispers," and "Mesh").

-1981 Peel Session including any outtakes.

-Movement.

For Power, Corruption and Lies:

-All music recorded for The Hacienda ("Prime/Video 5-8-6," "Rocking Carol," "Ode to Joy").

-All three outtakes of "Temptation," the alternate 12" version on the Collector's Edition, and 7" and 12" versions of "Temptation," "Hurt," "Blue Monday," and The Beach."

-1982 Peel Session including all outtakes and rough mixes.

-Writing session recordings of "Thieves," "Murder," and "Blue Monday"

-Both instrumental outtakes of "B.M."

-"Blue Monday" multitracks (Currently floating around online - by including them the public is afforded a view into the band's creative process, the song is given pride of place, and new DJs have the component parts to do their own mixes), all demos/takes, and promo/video edit.

-All mixes of "Confusion."

-All three versions of "Song One" ("Thieves Like Us") unedited, all released versions of "Thieves," "Murder," and "Lonesome Tonight" including 7" edits, instrumentals, and the version of "Murder" with the count-in from the Collector's Edition.

-Power, Corruption and Lies.

Some of this material is available for lossless download already. By making it all available, the band can truly give an accurate picture of its creative evolution.

I like the idea, I'm just saying not everyone concerned probably shares the belief that there is value in releasing absolutely everything.

No band is going to release absolutely everything. Some things remain unheard for a reason, and the glut of material degrades the listening experience of a carefully curated box.

Andy wrote: I like the idea, I'm just saying not everyone concerned probably shares the belief that there is value in releasing absolutely everything.

Absolutely! But there's a track record of success for what I'm proposing, given what we've seen from archival releases from everyone from Iggy and the Stooges and The Monkees to Bob Dylan. The quality of New Order's music, and its historical importance, justify a complete collection - via lossless digital or physical media.

It's a beautiful journey, and every step is worth taking.

50poundnote wrote: No band is going to release absolutely everything. Some things remain unheard for a reason, and the glut of material degrades the listening experience of a carefully curated box.

And we still would have those curated collections in the various best of/singles releases, Retro, the Collector's Editions, and the Definitive Editions. But for those of us who want to hear the evolution of the material, and historians who want to understand how it is created, offer everything available.

Even if the band opted for issuing the stuff on compact disc, which would be my preference, we're not talking about all that much. For example, for Low-Life we're talking perhaps two CDs' worth of demos and rough mixes, as well as the "Sunrise" instrumental version and edit already released on compilations? Add another CD for all mixes/edits of "The Perfect Kiss" and "Sub-culture." The album itself is a fifth disc.

Imagine a similar amount of unreleased material for Brotherhood, plus a CD to collect all mixes of "Shellshock," "State of the Nation," and "BLT." The album becomes a fourth disc. If we factor in "Salvation," its known outtakes/demos, the alternate version of the title track previously released, and the edits/mixes of "Touched by the Hand of God," that's a fifth disc.

There are rough mixes of "Blue Monday 1988" known to exist. Add all of the available mixes and edits and you probably have a very full sixth CD.

With Technique imagine three CDs worth of sessions, roughs, and instrumentals, to include the demos/sessions sold on eBay. "Fine Time," "Round & Round," and "Run 2" (including the Warner Bros. tapes we've heard about) plus "The Happy One" and "Intermede Musical" No.s 1 - 6 could fit across two discs. The album becomes a sixth CD. Again, very feasible in physical form.

A wildcard: Do the recordings made for TV shows like "Making Out" (which inspired "Vanishing Point" and other material) and "World in Action" exist in the band's archive? Those are important pieces of the puzzle.

But at the very least, make it all available in lossless quality for purchase and download.

Originally Posted by: Fotz Go to Quoted Post Did the BBC film the whole of the (first) set at Hacienda,December 85? That Whistle Test thing. Has to be on the box if it exists.

Sadly, Johnny James confirmed that the BBC stopped filming part way through the third track. It’s a real shame because it looked like an awesome gig. That version of ‘Sunrise’ is one of my favourite live renditions.

Also, by far my favourite live version of 'As it is and when it was". Barney absolutely nails the crescendo near the end!

Huh? Most of those compilations were bollocks, especially Retro, which included World and Alan Wiseprick but not TLU. There's far too much material out there for a consistent box set. If you have that level of passion, you can find it all on YouTube.

Qif586 wrote:

Also, by far my favourite live version of 'As it is and when it was". Barney absolutely nails the crescendo near the end!

Yep - it's excellent.

I can't wait for this set. Here's hoping that we don't have to wait too long. I appreciate the amount of work that goes into these sets and the fact that they don't want to release them too quickly (which could impact sales). However, as far as I'm concerned, I'd be happy with a new set every week.

As I mentioned on another thread, Hooky recently stated that he'd unearthed an even longer version of 'Elegia'. I'm really hoping that makes the cut and appears on this set.

my wallet would appreciate if this came out next year, or maybe the year after that.

but its done whenever its done. better to have quality product than something rushed.

i would like a lot more demos and less live material though.

later -1