Influences On The Band

Whilst posting on the 'Mick Middles book' thread, I started thinking about some of the of things that influenced the aesthetic of the band. Mainly the sleeve design, but other things too.

I thought it might be interesting to list some sources of things that the band/Saville 'borrowed' etc.

There's a part of me that kind of wants to collect all of these things, but that way lies madness:

'The House Of Dolls' novel (where the band's name was taken from, as well as providing the lyrics to the spoken word part of 'No Love Lost')

'History Of The 20th Century' magazine #50 (Bernard traced the cover of this for the drummer boy image on the 'An Ideal For Living' sleeve)

The book/magazine with the photo of Tsvi C. Nussbaum in Warsaw, 1943 (used on inside of the 'An Ideal For Living' sleeve. Anyone know where the is from? Possibly the same magazine as above?)

'The Cambridge Encyclopaedia of Astronomy' (1977 edition) (CP1919 'plot stack' image used on cover of 'Unknown Pleasures')

The magazine or book that Saville was reading that had the Ralph Gibson 'Hand Through a Doorway' photo used on the inner sleeve of 'Unknown Pleasures' (any idea where this came from?)

'Zoom' magazine (British edition) #10 (Mar-Apr '80) (where the Bernard Pierre Wolff photos used on the 'Closer' and 'Love Will Tear Us Apart' sleeves were used, I think! - anyone know for sure?)

'The Atrocity Exhibition' by J G Ballard (that provided the song title of the opening track on 'Closer')

The magazine/newspaper Saville was reading on Italian Futurism that he used for the 'Procession'/'Movement' sleeves.

'Strings Go West' LP by Super Sonic Strings (which, possibly provided the cover to 'Regret', unless it was nicked from somewhere else)

The magazine/newspaper Rob was reading that featured 'The New Order Of Kampuchean Liberation' headline, which gave the band their new name (no idea what newspaper this was from)

Anything else?

perspexorange wrote:

The magazine or book that Saville was reading that had the Ralph Gibson 'Hand Through a Doorway' photo used on the inner sleeve of 'Unknown Pleasures' (any idea where this came from?)

Well that photo on the inner sleeve is from those Somnambulist photographs that you posted a link to in the Mick Middles book thread earlier today! Or have i misunderstood your question here?

But yeah, good idea for a thread, perspex and some great pics you've posted.Hadn't ssen the cover for that Strings Go West LP before but it has to be the inspiration for the Regret sleeve or was it entirely coincidental?

First one i can think of that springs to mind that you didn't include is the painting 'Evil Genius Of A King' (1914-15) by Giorgio De Chirico.Quite clearly influenced Saville's sleeve for Thieves Like Us and then Murder i guess.Saville has said in the past that the painting is where he took the idea from for the Thieves sleeve.There was even a tee shirt a year or two back with both the De Chirico painting and Saville's sleeve for Thieves Like Us.

perspexorange wrote:

'The Cambridge Encyclopaedia of Astronomy' (1977 edition) (CP1919 'plot stack' image used on cover of 'Unknown Pleasures')

Ahh yes, I took/posted a similar pic in Reply #13 of the Use Hearing Protection exhibition thread. I guess a lot of us who went to that in London or Manchester can at least say we've seen the book, even if we couldn't turn the pages on it. Same for the Closer book/magazine.

perspexorange wrote:

'The Atrocity Exhibition' by J G Ballard (that provided the song title of the opening track on 'Closer')

I wonder if Danny Brown fans are equally interested? I read Ballard's pervy Crash novel and also watched the 2015 film adaptation of High Rise (good cast!). Ballard is a bit weird isn't he? Might consider this though.

perspexorange wrote:

'Strings Go West' LP by Super Sonic Strings (which, possibly provided the cover to 'Regret', unless it was nicked from somewhere else)

Wasn't this a sort of Stock Image? Or maybe I'm getting mixed up with Chemical Brothers' Exit Planet Dust...

perspexorange wrote:

The magazine/newspaper Rob was reading that featured 'The New Order Of Kampuchean Liberation' headline, which gave the band their new name (no idea what newspaper this was from)

Supposedly The Sunday Times...

perspexorange wrote:

Anything else?

Well we did discuss films influencing song titles previously.

Fotz wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

The magazine or book that Saville was reading that had the Ralph Gibson 'Hand Through a Doorway' photo used on the inner sleeve of 'Unknown Pleasures' (any idea where this came from?)

Well that photo on the inner sleeve is from those Somnambulist photographs that you posted a link to in the Mick Middles book thread earlier today! Or have i misunderstood your question here?

Sorry, yeah, I probably should've been clearer. What I mean is, where did Saville (or Bernard etc) specifically find the image 'Hand Through a Doorway'? Was this (and the rest of the 'Somnabulist' pictures) in a magazine? And, if so, which magazine?

Fotz wrote:

But yeah, good idea for a thread, perspex and some great pics you've posted.Hadn't ssen the cover for that Strings Go West LP before but it has to be the inspiration for the Regret sleeve or was it entirely coincidental?

It's certainly possible that this was a stock image in a library of images, I guess. I first found out about it after a reader's letter in the NME highlighted the similarities.

Fotz wrote:

First one i can think of that springs to mind that you didn't include is the painting 'Evil Genius Of A King' (1914-15) by Giorgio De Chirico.Quite clearly influenced Saville's sleeve for Thieves Like Us and then Murder i guess.Saville has said in the past that the painting is where he took the idea from for the Thieves sleeve.There was even a tee shirt a year or two back with both the De Chirico painting and Saville's sleeve for Thieves Like Us.

Excellent! I forgot about that one! Didn't Saville also take the numbers from around the edges from some board game somewhere?

I also seem to think that a bootleg LP used that original image. I'll have a hunt around and see if I can find it.

Thinking of that 'Cambridge Encyclopaedia' book, I heard it was the 1977 edition, but I've read someone stated it was the 1970 edition. Anyone know? Also, I think the 'Transmission' 7" sleeve is taken from that same book. Do we know for sure? Would be good to see the original page.

Debaser wrote:

I read Ballard's pervy Crash novel and also watched the 2015 film adaptation of High Rise (good cast!).

I have the DVD of High Rise.Think i only watched it once.Nor sure the film worked really.The one thing i recall from it is (i think) Keeley Hawes' character in one scene saying "Right, who wants to fuck me up the arse?" !! [:eek]

Debaser wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

'Strings Go West' LP by Super Sonic Strings (which, possibly provided the cover to 'Regret', unless it was nicked from somewhere else)

Wasn't this a sort of Stock Image? Or maybe I'm getting mixed up with Chemical Brothers' Exit Planet Dust...

Yeah - that's certainly a possibility, and one I was considering.

Debaser wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

The magazine/newspaper Rob was reading that featured 'The New Order Of Kampuchean Liberation' headline, which gave the band their new name (no idea what newspaper this was from)

Supposedly The Sunday Times...

I've certainly heard that mentioned, but I think I've heard talk of other papers or magazine supplements (The Guardian, maybe?) Would love to find this.

Debaser wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

Anything else?

Well we did discuss films influencing song titles previously.

Good call. I might dig up that thread.

perspexorange wrote:

Fotz wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

The magazine or book that Saville was reading that had the Ralph Gibson 'Hand Through a Doorway' photo used on the inner sleeve of 'Unknown Pleasures' (any idea where this came from?)

Well that photo on the inner sleeve is from those Somnambulist photographs that you posted a link to in the Mick Middles book thread earlier today! Or have i misunderstood your question here?

Sorry, yeah, I probably should've been clearer. What I mean is, where did Saville (or Bernard etc) specifically find the image 'Hand Through a Doorway'? Was this (and the rest of the 'Somnabulist' pictures) in a magazine? And, if so, which magazine?

ah ok, i'm wiv yer now but no i don't know what magazine or book they'd seen it in.

perspexorange wrote:

Fotz wrote:

But yeah, good idea for a thread, perspex and some great pics you've posted.Hadn't ssen the cover for that Strings Go West LP before but it has to be the inspiration for the Regret sleeve or was it entirely coincidental?

It's certainly possible that this was a stock image in a library of images, I guess. I first found out about it after a reader's letter in the NME highlighted the similarities.

Actually, i have a vague memory of seeing that article in NME back then, yes.

perspexorange wrote:

Fotz wrote:

First one i can think of that springs to mind that you didn't include is the painting 'Evil Genius Of A King' (1914-15) by Giorgio De Chirico.Quite clearly influenced Saville's sleeve for Thieves Like Us and then Murder i guess.Saville has said in the past that the painting is where he took the idea from for the Thieves sleeve.There was even a tee shirt a year or two back with both the De Chirico painting and Saville's sleeve for Thieves Like Us.

Excellent! I forgot about that one! Didn't Saville also take the numbers from around the edges from some board game somewhere?

I also seem to think that a bootleg LP used that original image. I'll have a hunt around and see if I can find it.

I think the numbers idea came from Saville seeing them on a table at Blair Castle in Scotland.The bootleg LP you're thinking of is of the Bradford Caesars Palace , March 1984 gig.I have a folder with the recording and i thought i also had the image in the folder of the bootleg's s sleeve .But looked just now and the image isn't in there! Where has it gone? That's frustrating and i can't find the image online when i Googled it.I think it was actually a different De Chirico painting that was used however, not the Evil Genius Of A King one.

I recall reading that the newspaper that had the 'The New Order Of Kampuchean Liberation' headline as The Guardian.

perspexorange wrote:

Excellent! I forgot about that one! Didn't Saville also take the numbers from around the edges from some board game somewhere?

I knew I hadn't imagined it. According to Wikipedia, Saville took inspiration from 'The New and Fashionable Game of the Jew' ([:eek] )

Looking at the Saville sleeve, the numbers are in exactly the same order as those in the game, so he must've grabbed it from there.

Perhaps he just misremembered where he had seen the numbers. Or, perhaps more likely, he didn't want to throw any more fuel on the "New Order are Nazis' fire, by admitting he got the numbers from an anti-semetic game.

Fotz wrote:

I think the numbers idea came from Saville seeing them on a table at Blair Castle in Scotland.

Yeah. That sounds familiar, now you say it. Thanks.

I have found the game that I had heard of (see above post). Maybe Saville saw the game on a table at Blair Castle. Or maybe the table and the game just shared similar design aesthetics.

Fotz wrote:

The bootleg LP you're thinking of is of the Bradford Caesars Palace , March 1984 gig.I have a folder with the recording and i thought i also had the image in the folder of the bootleg's s sleeve .But looked just now and the image isn't in there! Where has it gone? That's frustrating and i can't find the image online when i Googled it.I think it was actually a different De Chirico painting that was used however, not the Evil Genius Of A King one.

Thanks. i knew I hadn't imagined it. I can't find the image either. Weird.

perspexorange wrote:

Fotz wrote:

I think the numbers idea came from Saville seeing them on a table at Blair Castle in Scotland.

Yeah. That sounds familiar, now you say it. Thanks.

I have found the game that I had heard of (see above post). Maybe Saville saw the game on a table at Blair Castle. Or maybe the table and the game just shared similar design aesthetics.

Hmm, this confirms that it was on painted table at Blair Castle, like you said, Fotz.

It also mentions Saville saw it pictured in a 'Country Life' magazine, so that's another source.

https://www.niagara.edu/neworder/singles/tlu.html

perspexorange wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

Excellent! I forgot about that one! Didn't Saville also take the numbers from around the edges from some board game somewhere?

I knew I hadn't imagined it. According to Wikipedia, Saville took inspiration from 'The New and Fashionable Game of the Jew' ([:eek] )

Looking at the Saville sleeve, the numbers are in exactly the same order as those in the game, so he must've grabbed it from there.

Perhaps he just misremembered where he had seen the numbers. Or, perhaps more likely, he didn't want to throw any more fuel on the "New Order are Nazis' fire, by admitting he got the numbers from an anti-semetic game.

Wow, i've never heard of that or seen those images.It's quite clearly an inspiration for the TLU sleeve!! So yeah, which is it? The table at Blair Castle or that game? He saw the board game on a table at Blair Castle? But it's mentioned elsewhere that the numbers were on the table itself? All a bit of a puzzle!

This i think is the De Chirico painting used on the cover for the bootleg of the Bradford March 1984 gig.It was surrounded by numbers on the cover similar to they way the TLU sleeve is but the numbers on the bootleg sleeve were i think the date of the gig.I'm sure it was this one rather than Evil Genius Of A King.Can't be sure though as the bootleg cover image has mysteriously disappeared from the folder on my laptop. This painting by De Chirico is The Disquieting Muses (1916 or 1917 or 1918)

Hmm. That does look very familiar. Wonder why we can’t find the bootleg online. Odd.

Looking at those two De Chirico images, I have to say, I love them. I should check out more of his work. (TLU has always been one of my favourite sleeves, alongside Murder).

Instrumental cover versions of old country songs.

Side A

A1 Billy Boy 2:12 A2 The Streets Of Laredo 2:13 A3 Bury me Not On The Lone Prairie 1:56 A4 I'Ve Got No Use For Women 1:55 A5 Jesse James 2:07 A6 Songs Of The Golden West 3:07

Side B

B1 Red River Valley 2:25 B2 The Old Chisholm Trail 2:03 B3 Whoopie Ti-Yi-Yo 2:12 B4 The Colorado Trail 2:19 B5 The Cowboy 1:52 B6 Home On The Range 2:32

Side A, track 2, The Streets Of Laredo is a song I remember being played on the stereo when I was a kid. Sung by Marty Robbins, perhaps some of our American forumites might know it too.

Big Iron by Marty is also worth checking out, if you like that sort of thing.

Now that I've gone massively off-topic, here's the theme from The Big Country (1958). Which you may recognise from 808 State & MC Tunes' The Only Rhyme That Bites (which kinda brings things back to Manchester)

I guess the obvious one we're missing here is Henry Fantin-Latour's 'Basket Of Roses'.

Saville supposedly picked up a postcard of the painting at the National Gallery's gift shop, which gave him the inspiration.

perspexorange wrote: Hmm. That does look very familiar. Wonder why we can’t find the bootleg online. Odd.

Looking at those two De Chirico images, I have to say, I love them. I should check out more of his work. (TLU has always been one of my favourite sleeves, alongside Murder).

Yeah De Chirico did some fabulous stuff.

Hurrah! I finally found the image on my laptop for the Bradford 1984 bootleg

perspexorange wrote: I guess the obvious one we're missing here is Henry Fantin-Latour's 'Basket Of Roses'.

Saville supposedly picked up a postcard of the painting at the National Gallery's gift shop, which gave him the inspiration.

I picked up the postcard too at a visit to the National Gallery once.I saw the original painting when it was on display at that Joy Division/ New Order exhibition in Manchester in 2017.Have a photo of it somewhere.Can't recall the name of the exhibition now, there's been so many of them.

Was Saville inspired by Josef Muller-Brockman's 1960 poster for Der Film? Was Der Film a show or something? Very similar to Saville's design for the Low Life sleeve with the font and overlapping words

Debaser wrote: Instrumental cover versions of old country songs.

Cheers for these. Didn't think to check YouTube.

I guess the record sounds like you'd expect.

As regards that 808 State/MC Tunes track, I actually recognised 'The Big Country' theme when they sampled it. I have a knack of once hearing a tune, and never forgetting it. So I knew it was aWestern theme tune, but couldn't place it a the time.

Nice to hear it in full again.

Fotz wrote:

perspexorange wrote: Hmm. That does look very familiar. Wonder why we can’t find the bootleg online. Odd.

Looking at those two De Chirico images, I have to say, I love them. I should check out more of his work. (TLU has always been one of my favourite sleeves, alongside Murder).

Yeah De Chirico did some fabulous stuff.

Hurrah! I finally found the image on my laptop for the Bradford 1984 bootleg

Well done! Glad I didn't imagine it. Pretty cool cover. Some of those bootleg LPs were very well done.

Fotz wrote: Was Saville inspired by Josef Muller-Brockman's 1960 poster for Der Film? Was Der Film a show or something? Very similar to Saville's design for the Low Life sleeve with the font and overlapping words

Hmm, interesting. It is quite 'LowLife', isn't it?

Highlighting all of these influences makes it seem like we're trying to say Saville was a massive plagiarist. I'm not really. I think it's one thing to just swipe something and another thing entirely to take influences and apply them in interesting ways. I think, when Saville did borrow stuff, he did the latter.

perspexorange wrote:

Fotz wrote:

perspexorange wrote: Hmm. That does look very familiar. Wonder why we can’t find the bootleg online. Odd.

Looking at those two De Chirico images, I have to say, I love them. I should check out more of his work. (TLU has always been one of my favourite sleeves, alongside Murder).

Yeah De Chirico did some fabulous stuff.

Hurrah! I finally found the image on my laptop for the Bradford 1984 bootleg

Well done! Glad I didn't imagine it. Pretty cool cover. Some of those bootleg LPs were very well done.

Yep it is pretty cool and well done, isn't it.Obviously the numbers down the left are the year and the top middle and then bottom middle are the month and day respectively. As for the numbers down the right , well i'm assuming it's just random numbers the creator put to fill the boxes .Unless there is some significance to them? 8,4,7,2 ??I've no idea.Cool cover either way.

perspexorange wrote:

Fotz wrote: Was Saville inspired by Josef Muller-Brockman's 1960 poster for Der Film? Was Der Film a show or something? Very similar to Saville's design for the Low Life sleeve with the font and overlapping words

Hmm, interesting. It is quite 'LowLife', isn't it?

Highlighting all of these influences makes it seem like we're trying to say Saville was a massive plagiarist. I'm not really. I think it's one thing to just swipe something and another thing entirely to take influences and apply them in interesting ways. I think, when Saville did borrow stuff, he did the latter.

Well i looked up the Der Film thing because i vaguely remember one or two articles over the years talking about the similarity of the Low Life cover's lettering echoing it.I'm sure Der Film was mentioned in somethings i read about Low Life's sleeve.I actually thought when i first clapped eyes on the Low Life sleeve the day i bought it on its release that there was something about it vaguely 1960s ish but couldn't put my finger on exactly what.Maybe it was indeed the font and i'd seen that font used in 1960s art and of course there was also the fact it is in black and white which is very 60s ish

But yeah, like you say, i'll also go with Saville taking his influences and applying them in interesting ways

Fotz wrote: Was Saville inspired by Josef Muller-Brockman's 1960 poster for Der Film? Was Der Film a show or something? Very similar to Saville's design for the Low Life sleeve with the font and overlapping words

Factory Records, the Complete Graphic Album, AKA FAC 461. That's probably where you read it. Go to page 88 (might be a different page on the re-released, re-packaged version):

...multi-layered composition is further enhanced by the over-printed text on the cover (which is a direct quotation of Josef Muller Brockmann's Der Film poster of 1960). The vertical orientation of the text was carried across to Fac 123 (see p91) where it is blind embossed.

Fac 123 is of course, TPK.

Just looking at the Discogs entry for TPK: "Released on 20 May 1985 as 12" and on 04 November 1985 as 7". Well that made sense (!). And "The single peaked at #46 in the UK charts." Well if you're gonna release the formats nearly 6 months apart...

Debaser wrote:

Fotz wrote: Was Saville inspired by Josef Muller-Brockman's 1960 poster for Der Film? Was Der Film a show or something? Very similar to Saville's design for the Low Life sleeve with the font and overlapping words

Factory Records, the Complete Graphic Album, AKA FAC 461. That's probably where you read it. Go to page 88 (might be a different page on the re-released, re-packaged version):

...multi-layered composition is further enhanced by the over-printed text on the cover (which is a direct quotation of Josef Muller Brockmann's Der Film poster of 1960). The vertical orientation of the text was carried across to Fac 123 (see p91) where it is blind embossed.

Fac 123 is of course, TPK.

Just looking at the Discogs entry for TPK: "Released on 20 May 1985 as 12" and on 04 November 1985 as 7". Well that made sense (!). And "The single peaked at #46 in the UK charts." Well if you're gonna release the formats nearly 6 months apart...

Oh great spot, Debaser! Good work.Yes i have that book , the hardback edition and just checked out page 88 and yep, there it is the bit about the Der Film poster.Knew id read it somewhere.

Pedant's corner now but I'm going to have to dispute that Discogs claim that 20 May 1985 as the release date for the TPK 12". I bought the album and the TPK 12" on the same day, Low Life's release day which was 13th May 1985.I definitely bought the two on that same day.Maybe if they'd released the 12" a week or two before the album it'd have sold better? And i bought one of the Factory Benelux TPK 7" (there were 4 cover variations i think) in September 1985. There never was a UK 7" of TPK was there? Am i right? The Benelux 7" was the nearest it came , right?

Fotz wrote:

Pedant's corner now but I'm going to have to dispute that Discogs claim that 20 May 1985 as the release date for the TPK 12". I bought the album and the TPK 12" on the same day, Low Life's release day which was 13th May 1985.I definitely bought the two on that same day.Maybe if they'd released the 12" a week or two before the album it'd have sold better? And i bought one of the Factory Benelux TPK 7" (there were 4 cover variations i think) in September 1985. There never was a UK 7" of TPK was there? Am i right? The Benelux 7" was the nearest it came , right?

Release date: click (first charted May '85. Looks like fans bought it on the first week of release, then it fell down the chart)

UK 7" version: click

Debaser wrote:

Fotz wrote:

Pedant's corner now but I'm going to have to dispute that Discogs claim that 20 May 1985 as the release date for the TPK 12". I bought the album and the TPK 12" on the same day, Low Life's release day which was 13th May 1985.I definitely bought the two on that same day.Maybe if they'd released the 12" a week or two before the album it'd have sold better? And i bought one of the Factory Benelux TPK 7" (there were 4 cover variations i think) in September 1985. There never was a UK 7" of TPK was there? Am i right? The Benelux 7" was the nearest it came , right?

Release date: click (first charted May '85. Looks like fans bought it on the first week of release, then it fell down the chart)

UK 7" version: click

The chart date of it being a new entry at no 46 19th May to 25th May 1985 tallies with the 13th May release date, like i said.In those days the UK Chart rundown was on Radio 1 on a Tuesday (it moved to Sunday teatime in October 1987 and then to Friday teatime in 2015).So the 12" was released on 13th May and then on Tuesday 21st the following week it was revealed as a new entry at no 46.If it had been released on 20th May it wouldn't have hit the chart rundown on Radio 1 until the following week on 28th May. Though it wouldn't have got a play on the Radio 1 chart rundown anyway of course because they only played or covered the top 40.

As for the UK 7" release.Well blow me down. I've had that Ivan Ivan edit as an mp3 on my laptop for years but never knew it was that edit that was used on an official UK 7" release in November 1985.I don't what i thought the Ivan Ivan edit was released on or when, i can't account for my gap in knowledge on that one.I never knew there was an official UK 7" ! How have i not known that all these years? Every day's a school day eh?

And not only was it silly to release the 7" 6 months later , it was bonkers to wait til then to release it because around the end of October/beginning of November 1985 (so around the same time as that UK 7" of TPK ) Sub Culture was released as a 7" and 12" in the UK.The releases would have got in each other's way, no? Or at least the Sub Culture release would have distracted from the TPK 7" release.That's maybe why i missed the TPK 7", i was occupied by the Sub Culture release.

Saville talks about the Der Film poster in Designed By Peter Saville, published in 2003. He says his New Order sleeves up to that point had been an exploration of 20th century art, and by using black and white photos of the band and a font similar to Helvetica he'd then caught up to the band present day.

The Perfect Kiss 12" is all about 4 color printing, which I see as an ironic joke since the album and singles are black and white: the cover is silver/grey, or 50% black and 50% white, and the four variant inner sleeves are cyan, magenta, yellow, and black.

The 7" was released in two variations: standard 7" edit (as on Singles) release concurrent with the 12", then later with the shorter Ivan Ivan edits. These are bundled in Recycle.

IIRC, Saville stated that all the images on the Republic LP were stock photos - that was the thing he was into at the time. These images were then re-used / supplemented / combined for the singles.

50poundnote wrote:

The 7" was released in two variations: standard 7" edit (as on Singles) release concurrent with the 12", then later with the shorter Ivan Ivan edits. These are bundled in Recycle.

Ah, that'll be where i obtained the Ivan Ivan edits from.Thanks 50poundnote.I am at an utter loss to how i didn't know those edits had formed an official UK 7" release in November 1985.

50poundnote wrote:

The 7" was released in two variations: standard 7" edit (as on Singles) release concurrent with the 12",

I'm struggling to see this release* on Disocgs for UK Factory. Is it there?

* excluding white labels/promo/test pressing

Debaser wrote: I'm struggling to see this release* on Disocgs for UK Factory. Is it there?

Discogs isn't without error - it's crowdsourced, just like Wikipedia. It relies on peoples' general knowledge. Can you recall what day you bought a record 37 years ago? :)

Plus, as haphazard as Factory was, they probably wouldn't have precise release dates for their own titles, even if that documentation still exists in 2022. TPK was released on 7" in other territories at or around the same time as the 12"; I don't see why the UK would be any different. I know for a fact I had a UK copy of the first 7" before Subculture came out.