Temptation (and a bit of Retro just in case no-one else is sick to death of it...)

Just heard the original 7" version of Temptation, and I think it's excellent. Really like the primitive sounding sequencer line. I thought the version about to be released on "Retro" was the same as the one on "Substance", but apparently it's the 12" version (with a different track time). Was the Substance version a re-recording? And I heard a rumour that you can get "the full Temptation experience" if you tag on the 12" version to the 7" one. Seems possible, as the 7" fades out, and the 12" (Substance) fades in. What's the deal? The Substance version seems to have a more polished sound, so I'm not overly convinced that they're both from the same recording. Sorry if I sound like a bit of a dopey get, but I'm not as into NO as I am JD (although couldn't resist Retro at £16.99 from those kind chaps at HMV. Practically giving the bugger away.)

Also, shame that the original "Ceremony" doesn't look like ever seeing a CD release. Maybe because it was recorded without Gillian, the first version was considered a "JD without Ian" recording, whereas the re-recorded version was "proper" NO. I don't know. Still think the first one's better. Although I daren't pass judgment on Retro's shortcomings in case I incur the wrath of Mr Scott... Although to be fair, it's ideal for the slightly more than casual fan like myself. Though I can understand the general annoyance of the hardcore fans. I know how pissed off I'd be if JD's box set didn't contain the rarities (although the lack of Digital and Exercise One from the Genetic demos was a trifle irritating until I tracked down a CD copy of the full session about 2 months ago :D)

The version of "Temptation" on "Substance" was a new version recorded in 1987. The same with "Confusion". The box set will have the original versions of both of these tracks.

Hi there AE Yes, the Substance version of Temptation was re-recorded for the album, along with Confusion. The rationale was that they wanted these songs to sound more like they did in live performances I think (Jonathon? Al? is this right?) I also think the original Ceremony is not liked by Barn because he thinks the vocals are a bit 'pissy' (again, correct me if I'm wrong..), but I like it better anyway. As for Retro - well, I agree that there has been way too much criticism of this - Retrospective compilations by definition contain previously released material. I suspect the reason the rarity aspect is not comprehensive because NO are still an active entity, whereas Heart & Soul was a true compilation of a 'finished' band. Maybe once NO call it quits someone will release the demo stuff etc, but why would they release them now? Just an opinion.... CTB

Jesus, two sensible posts in one thread, what is the forum comig to :)

Originally posted by Atrocity Exhibit Just heard the original 7" version of Temptation, and I think it's excellent. Really like the primitive sounding sequencer line. I thought the version about to be released on "Retro" was the same as the one on "Substance", but apparently it's the 12" version (with a different track time). Was the Substance version a re-recording? And I heard a rumour that you can get "the full Temptation experience" if you tag on the 12" version to the 7" one. Seems possible, as the 7" fades out, and the 12" (Substance) fades in. What's the deal? The Substance version seems to have a more polished sound, so I'm not overly convinced that they're both from the same recording. Sorry if I sound like a bit of a dopey get, but I'm not as into NO as I am JD (although couldn't resist Retro at £16.99 from those kind chaps at HMV. Practically giving the bugger away.)

The "full temptation experience" is indeed supposed to be the result of listening to Temptation 7" followed by Temptation 12". But here we're talking about the real 1982 12", not the 1987 re-recorded version of Substance.

Yeah, I liked the 1987 version, but something about that original version is *really* cool. Aside from the fact that Barney sings off-key in parts of the original "Temptation", the song sounds great with the minimal sequencer track and the stripped-down drum track.

Originally posted by CTB Hi there AEYes, the Substance version of Temptation was re-recorded for the album, along with Confusion. The rationale was that they wanted these songs to sound more like they did in live performances I think (Jonathon? Al? is this right?) I also think the original Ceremony is not liked by Barn because he thinks the vocals are a bit 'pissy' (again, correct me if I'm wrong..), but I like it better anyway.

Yes, the 87 re-recordings of Temptation and Confusion did bring them more into line with live performances of those songs. Not completely, but definitely nearer to the live version than the existing recorded version.

Originally posted by Low-Life The version of "Temptation" on "Substance" was a new version recorded in 1987. The same with "Confusion". The box set will have the original versions of both of these tracks.

We'll see...

Andy

The original 7" of temptation is the best IMA. The original 12" is a really messy mix...all over the place.

And on the subject of Temptation and different versions, has anyone noticed that the version of the b-side Hurt is different on vinyl to the Substance version? The vinyl version has a couple of extra bars in the middle of it that that for some reason were edited out for Substance.

the 7" has "listen to the 12" in the run-out, while the 12" has "what do you think?" - so that does confirm that they should both be listened to in sequence. perhaps they wanted to put both together on substance, but practical realities restrained them from putting on a 13/14 minute track??? just a thought...

"Although I daren't pass judgment on Retro's shortcomings in case I incur the wrath of Mr Scott..."

There's really no need for comments like that - however tongue in cheek it may have been. I just get a bit bored when people go over the same stuff again & again or alternatively, that I attract such negative attention just because I get a tidbit of information a few days earlier than a.n.other member.

It's clear that the collection doesn't - and never could have - pleased everyone. At 4 discs, the contents go a long way to covering the bands back catalogue - representing much of their best work.

"Ceremony" was re-recorded after Gillian joined the band and its inclusion in this form represents the band as a whole. The 7" of "Temptation" is indeed the better of the two (of the originals that is) but only in MY opinion. I completetly disagree that they have sought to "airbrush" out any of their history - that would suggest some sort of conspiracy of silence; that there is some dirty little secret they want to keep from "us". They prefer a particular version of a particular track and as it's a collection of their songs with which they wish to represent themselves I think that's absolutely fair enough. I estimate that about 5% of the sales of this will go to the so-called "hardcore" fans. The target audience of this release sits somewhere in the 18-50 market. The lower end of that scale representing an element of "new" fans hoping to buy into the bands "cool" & "street credible" image. Many of the older buyers hoping to gather in one purchase the main elements of their existing vinyl collection. If the record company, the band and their management had released rambling studio "jams" of defunct or unfinished product then they would have instantly lost a large number of sales or even worse, been the target of dreadful reviews based on the below par quality of the tracks included.

Why I bother my arse even attempting to respond to the criticism I receive is beyond me - this is not aimed at "Atrocity E" by the way. Just a general response reflecting much of the last few days comments in general...

Poop... there, I screwed up this thread - there was way too much no biased useful information in this thread for a British band. Had to throw in a little something that detracts from the informative exchange of fact.

Sorry there young JS, my unique brand of Scouse-bastard humour doesn't usually come across fantastically well on forums Seriously, all credit for plantin' your boot up Barney's arse and telling him to give the hardcore fans something to shout, or at least whoop about. Now, if those HMV bastards try to swindle me out of the bonus disc just cos I ordered it at £16.99... They'll be in a whole world of pain.

Actually, sod that, JS, tell 'em to cancel it. We've got nowt to moan about now

Originally posted by mh the 7" has "listen to the 12" in the run-out, while the 12" has "what do you think?" - so that does confirm that they should both be listened to in sequence. perhaps they wanted to put both together on substance, but practical realities restrained them from putting on a 13/14 minute track??? just a thought...

Does the "master tape" feature one long song that's been mixed down? Wouldn't that be nice?

Am I alone in preferring the Substance version of Temptation if only because it does not begin with "Oh, you've got green eyes" but rather builds to what is undoubtedly their greatest line?

Originally posted by The Happy One Patsy...I love just about any version of Temptation I can get my paws on...as long as it isn't a cover version by, oh...I don't know, Mudvayne?!?!?!

Gee, Jeff, I didn't know there was a Mudvayne cover!

My favourite version of Temptation is the one on the Taras Schevchenko video. As regarding Ceremony, it seems most people on here seem to prefer the original New Order recording rather than the later version. I think that over a 4 CD f***ing box set and yet another greatest hits album in addition to Substance and The Best Of, that the version the FANS seem to prefer would be made available. In 1981 I was so happy when the original 7" and 12" versions of Ceremony appeared as it meant that the band would carry on in a defiant way as best illustrated by the sound of this very poignant song. If New Order dont want to make available stuff without Gillian on board, why are they releasing DVD's of concerts this year she didn't play at.

I think Retro (with the possible exception of CD 5) and International are a waste of money, are we are being fleeced once again.

Don't get me wrong I LOVE this band and most of their foibles, but if they could just give us something precious back, and not recycled tracks we own many times over.

Here is the Angry Young Man

Originally posted by ken colquhoun My favourite version of Temptation is the one on the Taras Schevchenko video.As regarding Ceremony, it seems most people on here seem to prefer the original New Order recording rather than the later version. I think that over a 4 CD f***ing box set and yet another greatest hits album in addition to Substance and The Best Of, that the version the FANS seem to prefer would be made available. In 1981 I was so happy when the original 7" and 12" versions of Ceremony appeared as it meant that the band would carry on in a defiant way as best illustrated by the sound of this very poignant song. If New Order dont want to make available stuff without Gillian on board, why are they releasing DVD's of concerts this year she didn't play at.I think Retro (with the possible exception of CD 5) and International are a waste of money, are we are being fleeced once again.Don't get me wrong I LOVE this band and most of their foibles, but if they could just give us something precious back, and not recycled tracks we own many times over.Here is the Angry Young Man

'Fleeced' is a bit strong. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy the thing. It is a shame the original ceremony looks set to be restricted to vinyl for the foreseeable future though.

'"Fleeced' is a bit strong. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy the thing. It is a shame the original ceremony looks set to be restricted to vinyl for the foreseeable future though." (Seen above)

Why, who doesn't own a turntable? Surely an essential item even today?