Skip to content

which band - JD or NO - has been more influential?

Archived

33 replies · 955 views

This is an archived legacy thread. Replies are closed, but the discussion is preserved.

which band has been more influential, overall?

Closed
  • Joy Division 27 (52%)
  • New Order 25 (48%)

52 votes · voting closed

Joy Division started up due to the influence of the Sex Pistols and others. They developed their own sound, but cited Iggy & The Stooges, Velvet Underground, etc, etc. as influences.

I sort of agree with others here that, as Joy Division preceded New Order, and musically speaking, are more or less the same band, then logically, one could say that Joy Division influenced New order - after all, Joy Division started using synths - look at Isolation, Decades, LWTUA, Atmosphere, etc. and they said that (well, Ian and Barney did) Kraftwerk were a major influence.

However, both bands have been major influences on different styles of music - Joy Division with the goth/punk/indie side and New Order with the dance/techno/pop/indie side.

If we look at the sheer number of 'dance' style bands, or those who release remixes as a matter of course, pop bands who use similar synth/production styles, the marketing and promotional material (Saville's designs, of course) or the attitudes of some of the 'cooler' mainstream bands, one has to say that overall, New Order have been the biggest influence.

But who were the main influence on New Order? Yup, Joy Division - from Barney trying to copy Ian's lyrics and singing style at the beginning, to New Order performing JD songs live more and more in latter years.

So, my theory is:

New Order are the biggest influence on modern music and the biggest influence on them was Joy Division.

New Order win for influencing more bands and musical styles in total.

0 likes

Originally posted by Chris New Order are the biggest influence on modern music and the biggest influence on them was Joy Division.New Order win for influencing more bands and musical styles in total.

How many of these are commercial bands ?

0 likes

Ok this is going to go off on a bit of a tangent but bear with me. Both bands had huge influence but I think overall its Joy Division.

Firstly New Order. The defining song for them as a band unto themselves (and not in the shadow of Joy Division) was Blue Monday. Huge influence on dance based music right? Yeah. So let's look at the bands: I hear that in Dead or Alive, subsequent OMD, Bronski Beat, Pet Shop Boys and a bunch of New Order rip off bands, like Information Society. So the main influence there is, believe it or not Dead or Alive, who was produced by...Stock Aitken Waterman. Who went on to have huge success with Rick Astley, Kylie Minogue and defined that whole mainstream hi-energy pop that framed the late 80's.

Now here people will say, "Yeah but what about house music, what part did New Order play in that?" Hmmm. Its a common argument, but I would argue it was Kraftwork first in this respect. If you look at the origins of house in Detroit and Chicago, they were taking Kraftwork type beats (Roland 808's, 909's) and speeding them up and layering them with Philly disco piano breaks. So it was really updated disco with a Teutonic coolness. In fact obviously the Hacienda played more of an influnce in the explosion of acid house in England, but although New Order owned it, that's a categorically different type of influence to New Order's actual music output. Bands like The Happy Mondays and The Stone Roses let the vibe of the Hacienda mix with their Manchester leanings to create this baggy hybrid. But I don't hear a lot of New Order's music or aesthetic in either of those two hugely influencial bands. The commonality was being Manc more than anything else.

Now Joy Division. There's four main things that makes Joy Division's influence so prevalent: Bernard Sumner's guitar playing, Peter Hook's lead bass, Martin Hannett's production techniques, and Ian Curtis's cult of personality.

Most of you have only acknowledged The goth influence directly related to the pathos generated by the Curtis legend. Fine. Its true. But Sumner's guitar playing is so underrated. Johnny Marr himself has said that Sumner was directly responsible for the Cure sound and all the other early 80's emotive bands like Tears for Fears. Those guys had no place to go without the Sumner motifs.

Then of course Hooky's bass. Influenced many bands directly: Sebadoh, Badly Drawn Boy, Wedding Present, Ned's Atomic Dustbin, Interpol; as well as many bands indirectly showing them that the bass could be played as a lead instrument.

Martin Hannett. Invented the modern reverb/digital delay sound. Cold but full of fractured depth. Invented the modern snare sound. As heard on Cure, Depeche Mode, REM, U2, Tool, Happy Mondays, NIN and hundreds of other bands.

Finally the whole package. Joy Division had a huge influence on the Cure and Depeche Mode and a host of other contemporaries. There's even good evidence to suggest they were an influence on the Smiths even though historically the Smiths famously removed themselves from the Factory fold. Then of course the industrial bands. Joy Division invented Skinny Puppy and that whole Chicago Wax Trax vibe; Big Black, KMFDM, Ministry, NIN. This in turn helped open up the crossover between metal and post punk, bringing a new darker, introspective aesthetic to metal. What's that? Its definitely Nirvana. I would also say that's Korn. So if one gets truely ambitious, one could say Joy Division was responsible for Nü Metal! Although a dubious honor it is no doubt. And now its starting again in the vibe of a lot of the newer New York bands, like Interpol and the Yeah, Yeah, Yeahs.

So there you have it: Joy Divsion is the more influencial band. By the time of New Order, A lot of other bands had caught up and were driving music inovation. New Order were a great singles band, but their influence had far less impact than Joy Division with Martin Hannett together inventing a lot of the motifs, themes, conventions and sounds still being used in modern rock music.

0 likes

Nice analysis there Sismundi (though I'm struggling to connect JD with the Yeah Yeah Yeahs!). But I've always thought that Blue Monday was the type of song that JD could have gone on to make (as opposed to, say, Temptation or AOC)

0 likes

You're leaving NewOrderOnline

This link goes to an external website we don't operate, which has its own privacy policy and terms.

Destination:
Continue ↗