New Order and football violence — Forum Archive

9 Jun 2003, 15:57

Just scanned a couple of pages in for a lad in the current Blackburn Youth, who asked me if there was ever any 'official' articles about the Youth following New Order in the 80's.

This is the best I could come up with, a two-page article from the NME in October 1986 where the band talk about the Youth briefly. If anyone's not read this before, you can find fairly big (circa ~400kb) files here -

1st Page 2nd Page

There's also a(nother) new book out on the subject of footie violence which I know a couple of other NOOLers have picked up, which focuses more on the music and fashions rather than hooliganism itself. 'Casuals' by Phil Thornton. New Order get a few references in passing - funniest is a Hibs fan who claims he always kept Substance on him when bowling around town, and particularly favoured 'Murder' for such moments!

9 Jun 2003, 16:17

Originally posted by Al Jarvis funniest is a Hibs fan who claims he always kept Substance on him when bowling around town, and particularly favoured 'Murder' for such moments!

I knew there was a reason for not liking 'Murder'...

9 Jun 2003, 18:07

Cheers Al, very interesting, laugh out loud when i read the bit about a different set list everynight :D

Wombling Luton anyone ??

9 Jun 2003, 18:32

Outstanding article, cheers Al. I remember that interview like it was yesterday, even found meself finsihing off some of the sentences. Binned all my old NMEs about 10 years ago, what was I thinking of?

If only we could quote Barney's lines about set lists back at him!

Met a lad last year who went to see NO at Glastonbury in '87. Was wearing a Celtic top & spent the whole gig avoiding Bb Youth who threatened him any time they got near.

I'm sure Dufford could add some views to this thread ;)

9 Jun 2003, 18:45

"Dregs at the back of the class". Not far wrong there then! Don't hate them for it although I can understand how some of their closer friends could have become disenchanted with them. Have only been to two live concerts but there was a definite undercurrent of violence pervading the whole proceedings which usually resulted in my scraping my boots down the backs of the achilles heels of the twats who had pushed in front of me!

10 Jun 2003, 03:31

Hands up who's been to a New Order gig where there wasn't a fight. I know I haven't...

10 Jun 2003, 04:01

Very good Jarvo - I had never seen that interview before. I'm missing loadsa stuff from about 83-87 keep em coming

10 Jun 2003, 04:12

Originally posted by Old Blue Hands up who's been to a New Order gig where there wasn't a fight. I know I haven't...

I don't remember one at Paris last year (well at the venue anyway ;)), but can't think of any other than that, even going back to the early days. Fights have varied in size and scale of audience participation though, from Macclesfield Leisure Centre and the Portsmouth ruck to handbags at Malvern.

10 Jun 2003, 04:27

Thornton, a Man Utd fan who doesn't go the match. He used to do a fanzine 'Guttersnipe' with a lad I know. Top bloke by all accounts.

10 Jun 2003, 04:31

I was a little too close to that Portsmouth one for comfort! Had to be all big and manly (or as far as possible when you're fifteen years old)and shield my then girlfriend from the flying fists, and got a boot in the goolies for my trouble.

10 Jun 2003, 04:36

Originally posted by Old Blue goolies

Arf, chortle.

10 Jun 2003, 04:39

I think Molyneux got a few smacks in Pompey. But then, in his own words I think he was swanning around down the front like he owned the gaff, showing off his AAA pass.

So, he probably deserved it. :evil4:

10 Jun 2003, 04:41

Originally posted by Hank Wiseass© Thornton, a Man Utd fan who doesn't go the match. He used to do a fanzine 'Guttersnipe' with a lad I know. Top bloke by all accounts.

Yeah, there's a Luton lad in said book who I was at school with. Been in touch with him after clocking his name and he speaks very highly of Thornton. He's got some online fanzine now - Fried Iced Cream, or something?

10 Jun 2003, 04:46

"Oh why does it have to be so formulaic, cold and monolithic?"

What on earth is he talking about here?

10 Jun 2003, 04:51

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Hank Wiseass©> Thornton, a Man Utd fan who doesn't go the match. He used to do a fanzine 'Guttersnipe' with a lad I know. Top bloke by all accounts.

Yeah, there's a Luton lad in said book who I was at school with. Been in touch with him after clocking his name and he speaks very highly of Thornton. He's got some online fanzine now - Fried Iced Cream, or something?

I think he might work for Partizan Media here in Liverpool. They have a website. Peter Hooton is involved and is currently penning an account of Hooliganism featuring Liverpool's mob. This is all 2nd hand info, so the usual discalimer applies.

10 Jun 2003, 04:53

http://www.partizanmedia.com/

there's a link to fried ice cream.

10 Jun 2003, 05:05

Originally posted by Hank Wiseass© http://www.partizanmedia.com/there's a link to fried ice cream.

Yeah, you're right. The Luton chap I know has some bits and pieces under there too. I don't know why, but I just assumed Thornton was a Scouser after reading the book. Hooton's thoughts feature very heavily as well, which perhaps swung the balance, but I'm sure there's a pic of Thornton walking to a game with Everton lads (haven't got it in front of me so can't confirm).

10 Jun 2003, 05:09

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Hank Wiseass©> http://www.partizanmedia.com/> > there's a link to fried ice cream.

Yeah, you're right. The Luton chap I know has some bits and pieces under there too. I don't know why, but I just assumed Thornton was a Scouser after reading the book. Hooton's thoughts feature very heavily as well, which perhaps swung the balance, but I'm sure there's a pic of Thornton walking to a game with Everton lads (haven't got it in front of me so can't confirm).

I think he's from Warrington as are a lot of the lads who write on 'WSAG' EFC's very amusing rivals site. The lad he did Guttersnipe with is a blue from Waterloo.

10 Jun 2003, 05:25

Originally posted by Al Jarvis I think Molyneux got a few smacks in Pompey. But then, in his own words I think he was swanning around down the front like he owned the gaff, showing off his AAA pass. So, he probably deserved it.

I think most people got a few smacks in Pompey ! That was our kid brother's first gig, it put him off for two years - he was 13 though !

10 Jun 2003, 06:16

Pardon me for being an ignorant foreginer, but why Blackburn Rovers of all clubs ?

10 Jun 2003, 06:30

Originally posted by Julijana Zitnjak why Blackburn Rovers of all clubs ?

I've always wondered that as well. Anyone ?

10 Jun 2003, 06:51

Originally posted by Benny and the Cobwebs > Originally posted by Julijana Zitnjak> why Blackburn Rovers of all clubs ?

I've always wondered that as well. Anyone ?

The interview (linked, above) seems to intimate it was as a result of some top boy being a big fan. My mate Mark's from there, and his older brother is New Order obsessed. Met him for the Manc Apollo gig 18 months back and he recognised loads of Blackburn faces there. There's a bit in Casuals about the Service Crew taking loads down to Finsbury Park 87, and I remember something at ITK years back about them being intimidated by the amount of United in the audience.

10 Jun 2003, 12:17

Originally posted by Benny and the Cobwebs > Originally posted by Old Blue Hands up who's been to a New Order gig where there wasn't a fight. I know I haven't...

I don't remember one at Paris last year (well at the venue anyway ;)), but can't think of any other than that, even going back to the early days. Fights have varied in size and scale of audience participation though, from Macclesfield Leisure Centre and the Portsmouth ruck to handbags at Malvern. i was very close to the macclesfield incident...( not very nice at all )...i must confess i cant remember any trouble at malvern apart from bez and shaun gobbing on the crowd during the mondays slot..( par for the course )..tim can you clear my mists please ?? both sheff uni and roxy kicked off...small venues,frantic sets..not a good combination for a quiet night out!!!

10 Jun 2003, 23:42

anyone who's been to NO shows in both the US and UK can attest to the VAST difference in the crowd make-up. my boyfriend at the time, who accompanied me to a show in glasgow, told me that barney himself noted that NO seemed to attract a number of football hooligans. sure enough, there were a few tiffs at the show between yobbish types. i thought it was rather silly and stupid to be honest and when they got too close to me i just screamed at them to get the fcuk out of my space (aah, the attitude one gets living in harlem!). i've said this in another thread: i hate being smacked in the face (or breast, or any other location) during shows by flying body parts if i'm standing minding my own business. grrr.

in the US, on the other hand, it's much mellower. of course, depressed smiths and cure fans can be that way... generalization, but there you go!

11 Jun 2003, 04:03

newOrder and footy violence do not go together.

11 Jun 2003, 04:26

Originally posted by Martin Davies newOrder and footy violence do not go together.

Sadly they do though. Unfortunately many of the football hooligans have adopted New Order as their band.

11 Jun 2003, 05:38

Originally posted by Martin Davies newOrder and footy violence do not go together.

It's not simply about violence, we're talking about a subculture (admittedly, readily associated with football in this country) which takes a great interest in such things as music and clothes etc, as the Casuals book I mentioned above strives to focus on. A year ago the demographics of this board were fairly representative of what-I-consider-to-be a 'New Order fan', but I know a lot of non-UK fans tired of the football banter, etc. Behind Closed Doors was formed as a result, but we lost a few of the regular contributors in the aftermath. We have to face facts though, you could walk into any suburban nightclub, gig, pub, whatever, in mid 80's England and expect a fight, so New Order gigs weren't any different. It's not simply a football thing, it was just the norm in British society then, things have mellowed out since. Mind, look at some of the regular UK-contributors to this board: Johnny G, Mickey Way, Timbo, Paul T, Hank, Hac, Dave Molly, Steve W, Shug, Inta, Grahame F, etc. There's a definite football bias going on there. Obviously Hibster lets the side down with his egg-chasing, though! And did nobody ever wonder why Jonathan Scott christened himself 1645hrs?

This made me chuckle tho' - LINK - basically just a link from an Aussie newsgroup complaining that the audience for a New Order gig in the UK was male-dominated and beery, but then going on to imply it was as a result of World in Motion. Obviously, though, the 'football' thing was happening way, way before!

11 Jun 2003, 08:01

Coincidentally I just picked up Thornton's book yesterday from a journo mate who was sent a review copy (is it out yet?) He's big mates with Woody (Craig Wood) who contributed quite a bit to the book re. the Motherwell and Glasgow crews. Looking forward to the read.

11 Jun 2003, 08:24

Aye - I agree with Jarvo, it was very much part of British Culture, it wasnae a night out if there wasnae a fight, and in Corby there were a lot more than just the one fight per night :lol: I had heard of the stories (mainly about the Blackburn lot) through various interviews, and indeed, insights from people who you all know are regulars on this forum. Fuck knows why the band are mainly for "The Lads" maybe it has something to do with being "Cool" and lets face it, the Order are not yer everyday type of band are they, they are stubborn, piss-taking bastards with an atitude who just happen to make great music. It's definitely a British thing liking the Order & Footy, and as Jarvo says, there's the odd trainspotter who doesnae like the footy. Dunno whether the mad drinking we all take part in (starting the day before) blinds my view, but I thought there were quite a few birds at the Get Ready / Finsbury / Manchester gigs.....I may be wrong, but that willnae surprise ye's:D

11 Jun 2003, 16:00

some good points raised...however mr j you cant say i am a football fan, i support derby !!! imo most of the trouble at gigs in the early days was a mixture of frantic sets,packed venues and the order coming on very late...most people shitfaced before they come on.

11 Jun 2003, 20:26

Though NO aren't mentioned in it, there was that book by the American editor of Granta called Among The Thugs that tried to present the football violence to Americans who were just so shocked by what was happening over in Europe.

I've heard more than a few jokes about if I'm gonna riot or something at the Seattle match in July, so that is probably still the general perception of the people here.

This is a goodreview of the book; I bought it when it came out cause I liked football and it was an up-to-date look at current cultural events across the pond. I suppose there was a part of me that was mesmerized by the violence that was so far away from me, but the lessons have stayed with me to this day, for I still go to college football games and have seen some pretty stupid stuff going down between fans from both sides. The last thing I wanna do is to be hauled away in a hearse from a sporting event, but too much alcohol, especially before games that start at 7 p.m, sometimes doesn't help matters for the security at these events.

12 Jun 2003, 17:52

Originally posted by Green The last thing I wanna do is to be hauled away in a hearse from a sporting event, but too much alcohol, especially before games that start at 7 p.m, sometimes doesn't help matters for the security at these events.

which is precisely why marijuana should be legalized. i can't imagine there are too many fights at ultimate frisbee matches! :D

14 Jun 2003, 20:36

Originally posted by Johnny Giles Outstanding article, cheers Al. I remember that interview like it was yesterday, even found meself finsihing off some of the sentences. Binned all my old NMEs about 10 years ago, what was I thinking of? If only we could quote Barney's lines about set lists back at him! Met a lad last year who went to see NO at Glastonbury in '87. Was wearing a Celtic top & spent the whole gig avoiding Bb Youth who threatened him any time they got near.I'm sure Dufford could add some views to this thread ;)

Yes i do remember the article and a few others concerning the Blackburn lads(i don't rate their mob though), esp as'Angel-dust' was supposedly wrote about them. There's a few post concerning 'Joy Division' at the moment on 'In The Know' message board (so the football/lad/music/fashion connection is still as strong as ever). Reference the 'Casuals' book not a bad read(brought me back a bit) but was very much a Northern look on things which was a little biased( London mobs have been running the show for as long as i can remember) nothing wrong in a bit of rivalry. Regards.

15 Jun 2003, 13:12

But just a point here.BLACKBURN YOUTH were NOT BLACKBURN ROVERS fans.Some yes,but the majority spawn when the place was growing full of ASIANS in BLACKBURN.They used to cause havoc with anyone,football fans or not.A lot of DARWENERS(where i was born) where ROVERS fans but got a good hiding from BB YOUTH.Just thought i would clear this up.In later years i cannot speak about if the ASIANS became YOUTH and if YOUTH jumped on the JACK WALKER BLACKBURN,but certainly not in 1982 . Rocket Mick

15 Jun 2003, 13:22

Originally posted by AgentWood > Originally posted by Green> The last thing I wanna do is to be hauled away in a hearse from a sporting event, but too much alcohol, especially before games that start at 7 p.m, sometimes doesn't help matters for the security at these events.

which is precisely why marijuana should be legalized. i can't imagine there are too many fights at ultimate frisbee matches! :D

Unless it's over the snacks! :lol: