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Whadadeye miss?
Islam needs to catch up with the times. Christians did most of their killing years ago.
BTW, Read Albert Speer's Inside the Third Reich for an interesting discuss he had with Hitler on Islam. Hitler said that Germany had the wrong religion.
i'll just say one more thing on this issue, just to make myself clear. i don't agree with muslims, or for that matter any religious group wanting to impose their views and morals on western secular society. if they choose to live in a western society then they should respect that society, its laws and its ways. by all means anybody can practice anything they want to, as long as they don't expect me to share their religion, and to obey their practices.
(ok it looks like it may be some time yet before my brain turns to mush, if i can still post a halfway decent message).
Ironwill wrote:
Ronald Kirsch wrote: here we go again. allah is actually the same god the christians worship....
Allah is NOT the same as God in the Christian Bible or Jewish Torah.
(exerpt taken from http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/god.htm)
The Holy Bible teaches that God cannot be tempted by evil and neither tempts anyone with evil; evil being understood as referring to immorality and sin. James 1:13 (c.f. Psalm 5:4-5; Habakkuk 1:13)
Yet, the Quran teaches that Allah is the author of evil:
And (the unbelievers) schemed and planned, and Allah schemed also, and the best of schemers is Allah. S. 3:54 Remember how the unbelievers schemed against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or to slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They scheme and plot, but the best of schemers is Allah. S. 8:30 So they schemed a scheme: and We schemed a scheme, while they perceived not. S. 27:50The term for scheme in Arabic is makara which denotes one who is a deceiver, one who is conniving, a schemer. It is always used in a negative sense. Allah is thus seen as the best of deceivers, the premiere schemer and conniving one.
Do your research before making such generalities.
you need to do your research. a christian who speaks arabic will call god 'allah,' as will a jew who speaks arabic.
i looked at that website you referenced, 'answeringislam.org.' it proclaims to be a dialogue between christians and muslims but is a thinly veiled evangelical christian site. note that in the section 'the character of god in the bible and the qur'an,' which is supposed to be a dialogue between muslims and christians, that only the christian perspective is given because, as the website notes, 'the muslim speaker's notes have not been made available to us.' it refers to christians as 'we' and muslims as 'them.' how can such a website be anything but biased? why would you gather your research from such a blatantly-biased website?
twist wrote: Whadadeye miss?
Islam needs to catch up with the times. Christians did most of their killing years ago.
Maybe there's some sort of developmental stage that cultures go through, because the from the middle ages on, it was a pretty bloody time for Christianity. Islam is only in its own middle ages now.
On the other hand, Buddhism never went through any kind of stage like that, nor did Jainism, and probably other religions as well...
Hmmmmm......
BTW, Read Albert Speer's Inside the Third Reich for an interesting discuss he had with Hitler on Islam. Hitler said that Germany had the wrong religion.
The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was in league with the nazis, too. Mutual admiration society? With a common goal?
Comrade Shampanyov wrote: On the other hand, Buddhism never went through any kind of stage like that, nor did Jainism, and probably other religions as well
with jains, i don't think they have time to think about violence. they're too busy sweeping.
Ang on, I've got the Ultimate Solution right here.
Tony Wilson becomes the manager of Earth and its inhabitants. We worship Tony and he promises to f'off if he don't like us and we'll f'off if we don't like him. No killing, and we all get a share in the organization.
He might even promise us a million virginal lovers, an eternal good time and some sort of cool car to drive around in our next lives. Probably a Jaguar, knowing him.
At least we know the music will be pretty darn boss.
:D
if tony wilson becomes leader of earth, i'm calling the vogons and asking for an intergalactic freeway to be built immediately.
Please don't confuse practicing Muslims with uneducated/illiterate fanatics who are unable to form their own opinions.
I am a Muslim and I've been to a New Order gig. Are you going to banjo me from head to toe? It would help if you understood the true meaning of Islam and not base your reactions based on what a miniscule amount of the population does.
From BBC news reports:
"Liberal Democrat MEP Sajjad Karim, who represents north-west England in the European Parliament, said it was irresponsible for papers to publish the cartoons. But it was also irresponsible for Muslims to threaten to retaliate against citizens of the countries where the newspapers were published and it was now time to "put the issue to bed".
"Iraq's top Shia Muslim cleric Ayatollah Ali Sistani condemned the publication, but said militant Islamists were partly to blame for distorting the image of Islam"
"Afghan President Hamid Karzai called for Muslims to be forgiving, saying the cartoons should not cause a dispute between cultures"
"PALESTINIAN AL-QUDS Despite the great insult, uncalculated responses - especially attacks on European nationals in the Muslim world - do not go hand in hand with the morals of Islam and its Prophet because they are the Muslims' guests, and protecting them is a sacred obligation."
I'm sorry, but you will not find an educated Muslim endorsing violence. There is nothing wrong with peaceful protests. A call for violence is completely unacceptable in Islam.
afr0puff wrote:
I'm sorry, but you will not find an educated Muslim endorsing violence. There is nothing wrong with peaceful protests. A call for violence is completely unacceptable in Islam.
Agreed! 
I think most thinking people will find that true in most religions, peace being a prevalent call in all of them and people (fanatics) going bonkers and not remembering that.
We just need more thinking people in the world. Afr0puff, you've given a sound statement, many thanks.
afr0puff wrote:
I'm sorry, but you will not find an educated Muslim endorsing violence. There is nothing wrong with peaceful protests. A call for violence is completely unacceptable in Islam.
Religion of 'peace' you say? There's your religious tolerance for you.
Oh Europe, what have you done to these poor people to piss them off so? All you did was allow them to enter your country in search of a better life.
Why wasn't the muslim community as outspoken then and denounced the atrocity dealt to us by those claiming to be of your ilk? Oh ya, I forgot. It was only American lives who were killed, not a cartoon published of your 'prophet'.
Europe, when they strike you, then will you act? It may be too late!
Comrade Shampanyov wrote: You'd have to be blind (or maybe deaf) to not notice that the hebrew God El and the Muslim God Allah have almost identical names. And both peoples are descended from Abraham. Not the same deity? Ridiculous.
Many believe the word “Allah” was derived from the mid- eastern word “el” which in Ugaritic, Caananite and Hebrew can mean a true or false God. This is not the case, “The source of this (Allah) goes back to pre-Muslim times. Allah is not a common name meaning “God” (or a “god”), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity.” (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (ed. Hastings), I:326.)
If you want to read the entire article (interesting I must say) then go to http://www.letusreason.org/Islam6.htm
afr0puff wrote:
I'm sorry, but you will not find an educated Muslim endorsing violence. There is nothing wrong with peaceful protests. A call for violence is completely unacceptable in Islam.
They may not endorse violence but I sure don't see them out on the streets condeming it. 
Ironwill wrote:
Comrade Shampanyov wrote: You'd have to be blind (or maybe deaf) to not notice that the hebrew God El and the Muslim God Allah have almost identical names. And both peoples are descended from Abraham. Not the same deity? Ridiculous.
Many believe the word “Allah” was derived from the mid- eastern word “el” which in Ugaritic, Caananite and Hebrew can mean a true or false God. This is not the case, “The source of this (Allah) goes back to pre-Muslim times. Allah is not a common name meaning “God” (or a “god”), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity.” (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (ed. Hastings), I:326.)
“Historians like Vaqqidi have said Allah was actually the chief of the 360 gods being worshipped in Arabia at the time Mohammed rose to prominence. Ibn Al-Kalbi gave 27 names of pre-Islamic deities...Interestingly, not many Muslims want to accept that Allah was already being worshipped at the Ka'ba in Mecca by Arab pagans before Mohammed came. Some Muslims become angry when they are confronted with this fact. But history is not on their side. Pre-Islamic literature has proved this.” (G. J. O. Moshay, Who Is This Allah? (Dorchester House, Bucks, UK, 1994), pg. 138).
If you want to read the entire article (interesting I must say) then go to http://www.letusreason.org/Islam6.htm
Same info, more or less, only better researched, and certainly more neutral, is in the Wikipedia article on Allah. And according to Wikipedia, El and Allah mean the same thing.
As Woodsy asked previously, why would you use a fundamentalist Christian website as the source of your information on Islam?
AgentWood wrote:
Ironwill wrote:
Ronald Kirsch wrote: here we go again. allah is actually the same god the christians worship....
Allah is NOT the same as God in the Christian Bible or Jewish Torah.
...
...Do your research before making such generalities.
you need to do your research. a christian who speaks arabic will call god 'allah,' as will a jew who speaks arabic.
Duh! They're saying god in arabic! The language of the jews is Hebrew. So a jew saying god in Hebrew would not say 'allah'.
That's like saying an arab who speaks english will call YOU 'Agent Wood', as will a jew who speaks english. You logic is flawed. 
Ironwill wrote:
AgentWood wrote:
Ironwill wrote:
Ronald Kirsch wrote: here we go again. allah is actually the same god the christians worship....
Allah is NOT the same as God in the Christian Bible or Jewish Torah.
...Do your research before making such generalities.
you need to do your research. a christian who speaks arabic will call god 'allah,' as will a jew who speaks arabic.
Duh! They're saying god in arabic! The language of the jews is Hebrew. So a jew saying god in Hebrew would not say 'allah'.
That's like saying an arab who speaks english will call YOU 'Agent Wood', as will a jew who speaks english. You logic is flawed.
hebrew, especially ancient Hebrew and Arabic are both closely related Semitic languages. hence many words even today are very similar. just an example Arabic salam, Hebrew shalom.
it is the important words in languages that over time change least. as i am not an expert in semitic languages, i will demonstrate this in two languages that i do know, english and german. even though they share a common base, both have developed very differently over time, yet some words are still either the same or very similar. engish - german: god - gott, house - haus, fish - fisch.
actually an interesting side point arabs by definition can not be anti-semites, as they are a semitic people themselves.
Ironwill wrote:
AgentWood wrote:
Ironwill wrote:
Ronald Kirsch wrote: here we go again. allah is actually the same god the christians worship....
Allah is NOT the same as God in the Christian Bible or Jewish Torah.
...Do your research before making such generalities.
you need to do your research. a christian who speaks arabic will call god 'allah,' as will a jew who speaks arabic.
Duh! They're saying god in arabic! The language of the jews is Hebrew. So a jew saying god in Hebrew would not say 'allah'.
That's like saying an arab who speaks english will call YOU 'Agent Wood', as will a jew who speaks english. You logic is flawed.
I'm not following your logic at all.
When an Arab Christian says "Allah," he's saying "God" in Arabic. But when a Muslim says "Allah," he's not saying "God" in Arabic? Because Allah is not God?
Huh? Talk about
Ronald Kirsch wrote: actually an interesting side point arabs by definition can not be anti-semites, as they are a semitic people themselves.
I've actually made that same argument myself. However, I think it's pretty clear from the rheotoric that some of the worlds most virulent anti-jews are Arabic.
Comrade Shampanyov wrote: Same info, more or less, only better researched, and certainly more neutral, is in the Wikipedia article on Allah. And according to Wikipedia, El and Allah mean the same thing.
As Woodsy asked previously, why would you use a fundamentalist Christian website as the source of your information on Islam?
Wikipedia entries can be edited by anyone...it's like sand, always shifting...so it doesn't carry any authoritive weight.
Ironwill wrote:
afr0puff wrote:
I'm sorry, but you will not find an educated Muslim endorsing violence. There is nothing wrong with peaceful protests. A call for violence is completely unacceptable in Islam.
They may not endorse violence but I sure don't see them out on the streets condeming it.
Take a look throughout history at any society whose primary beliefs are peace. The people of that society tend to be passive by nature who prefer not to meddle in the affairs of others, and only wish to go about their lives. Now I'm not saying that is an excuse people can use to mind their own business. I absolutely agree with you that now is a time for true practicing Muslims to take a stand against these fanatics.
For example, that one guy who simply likes to post pictures... besides the fanatic groups promoting terrorism, every single Islamic organization, state, and country denounced the 9/11 attacks. Only American lives being lost? Think again. All you read about or see in the news are how suicide bombers are claiming the lives of other Muslims. Muslims in line to vote. Muslims in line to join the police force. Muslims wanting to change their country for the better. They are the ones being massacred. If you want to keep a tally of lives lost, be my guest. Your findings will show that the majority of people targeted in those attacks are other Muslims.
Kind of hard to take to the streets and condemn these attacks when you will be targeted for opposing those terrorist factions.
As for Mohammed being a cunt, how would he react to these cartoons of him?
"Omar, one of the most celebrated companions of Prophet sought the permission of the state to punish Suhail bin Amr, a prisoner of war who had engaged in anti-Prophet Muhammad propaganda in Makkah. Suhail was known for his abusive language and insulting attitude towards the Prophet. Prophet Muhammad strictly prohibited his companions from punishing or torturing any prisoner of war on account of their past hostilities. He admonished Omar for seeking retribution. After all, the Prophet had endured all the possible humiliation at the hands of the elites of Makkah and their supporters without asking any of his supporters to silence his opponents."
If you want more examples of Mohammed's teachings, let me know and I will provide them to you. I don't consider myself scholarly, but I like to think of myself as educated. I bet if you were to ask those cowards covering their faces holding "war signs" to provide an example of where Mohammed would support their actions, they'd be hard pressed.
Ironwill wrote:
Comrade Shampanyov wrote: Same info, more or less, only better researched, and certainly more neutral, is in the Wikipedia article on Allah. And according to Wikipedia, El and Allah mean the same thing.
As Woodsy asked previously, why would you use a fundamentalist Christian website as the source of your information on Islam?
Wikipedia entries can be edited by anyone...it's like sand, always shifting...so it doesn't carry any authoritive weight.
You're not telling me anything new. Since you know so much about Wikipedia, you must also know that entries are monitored, and factually false edits are removed. So what's your point? That because Wikipedia can be edited, a blatantly partisan website-- the fundamentalist Christian website you keep referring us to-- is therefore the best source of neutral information on Islam on the web?
Once again, a superb post from afr0puff.
So I must offer my apologies for saying "Mohammed was certianly a cunt" earlier. I've been doing some reading since then, and my basis for saying that has, umm, disappeared, so I stand corrected.
Anyway, regardless of all the turmoil, one thing that I think is admirable about Islam is the central role that their faith plays in the lives of Muslims. Obviously, that can be exploited for evil, but it also has the potential for good, and I think submitting to the will of Allah is an admirable way to live one's life.
Keep up the eloquent, well-reasoned work, afr0puff. 
Comrade Shampanyov wrote:
Ironwill wrote:
AgentWood wrote:
Ironwill wrote:
Ronald Kirsch wrote: here we go again. allah is actually the same god the christians worship....
Allah is NOT the same as God in the Christian Bible or Jewish Torah.
...Do your research before making such generalities.
you need to do your research. a christian who speaks arabic will call god 'allah,' as will a jew who speaks arabic.
Duh! They're saying god in arabic! The language of the jews is Hebrew. So a jew saying god in Hebrew would not say 'allah'.
That's like saying an arab who speaks english will call YOU 'Agent Wood', as will a jew who speaks english. You logic is flawed.
I'm not following your logic at all.
When an Arab Christian says "Allah," he's saying "God" in Arabic. But when a Muslim says "Allah," he's not saying "God" in Arabic? Because Allah is not God?
Huh? Talk about
Ya nuts. Ok. Let's see if we can make sense of this....lets say there is a language called Ooompaloompa. A 'hammer' in Ooompaloompanese is called a "forgulatee". So a german, jew, christian, eskimo, or arab saying 'hammer' in Ooompaloompanese would say "forgulatee" as would an Ooompaloompa. So it's the same fricken word because it's the same fricken language.
Now I will try as amusingly as I can, try to explain the difference between an Arab Christian saying God and a Muslim saying God, once again using the Ooompaloompa example.
So an Ooompaloompa Christian saying "forgulatee" is saying 'hammer' in Ooompaloompanese. As is an Ooompaloompa saying "forgulatee". It's still Ooompaloompanese even though the Oompaloompa Christian may envision "forgulatee" to mean 'Claw Hammer' and the Ooompaloompa may envision "forgulatee" to mean 'Tack Hammer.' They're both hammers. Just different types.
I've got to get to bed so I'll continue this tomorrow.
Cheers!
The premise would be true if in fact the Christian meant claw hammer and the Muslim meant tack hammer, but there was only one word to describe any type of hammer.
It's not at all evident that there's only one word in Arabic to describe all gods (and in fact, I believe that would be a false statement), and it's not at all evident that Christians mean a different God when they say "Allah" than Muslims mean when they say "Allah" (and vice versa).
afr0puff wrote:
Ironwill wrote:
afr0puff wrote:
I'm sorry, but you will not find an educated Muslim endorsing violence. There is nothing wrong with peaceful protests. A call for violence is completely unacceptable in Islam.
They may not endorse violence but I sure don't see them out on the streets condeming it.
....For example, that one guy who simply likes to post pictures... besides the fanatic groups promoting terrorism, every single Islamic organization, state, and country denounced the 9/11 attacks. Only American lives being lost? Think again. All you read about or see in the news are how suicide bombers are claiming the lives of other Muslims. Muslims in line to vote. Muslims in line to join the police force. Muslims wanting to change their country for the better. They are the ones being massacred. If you want to keep a tally of lives lost, be my guest. Your findings will show that the majority of people targeted in those attacks are other Muslims.
Kind of hard to take to the streets and condemn these attacks when you will be targeted for opposing those terrorist factions.....
Ya that guy is me, but I don't just post pictures only. Just trying to get a point across. So if I offended you, forgive me, but watching 9-11 unfold live on television offended me. But what offended me even more was that there were no (or very few and very small) Muslim demonstrations against that act. You say that every single Islamic organization, state, country, etc...denounced this attack. Could you please (not being sarcastic) give me some sources to this because I must have missed this during my anger/horror/grief/sadness/confusion.
I 100% agree with you about Mulims being killed by Muslims. Don't have an answer for you except for the Muslim community worldwide to rid themselves of these people staining the Islamic religion.
ok..now I'm going to bed.
Cheers.
Comrade Shampanyov wrote: The premise would be true if in fact the Christian meant claw hammer and the Muslim meant tack hammer, but there was only one word to describe any type of hammer.
It's not at all evident that there's only one word in Arabic to describe all gods (and in fact, I believe that would be a false statement), and it's not at all evident that Christians mean a different God when they say "Allah" than Muslims mean when they say "Allah" (and vice versa).
Dang it! I'm trying to go to bed!
Ok. The God of Christians had a son named Jesus, and believe that God is a Trinity. The God of Muslims has no son and do not believe God is a Trinity. So there in are the differences. 2 different Gods.
Ok. Now I'm really going to bed.
No more cheers. Sweet dreams instead.
ok one last time, but methinks there's not much point in arguing with a fundamentalist christian. apologies if you aren't.
Mohamed certaily thought the was a prophet to the same god that the Jews worshipped, who incidentally is the same god as the christian god.
"there is only one god and Mohamed is his prophet."
Jesus incidentally is also recognized as a prophet in Islam.
