Moussaoui Trial

Comrade Shampanyov, Last of the Red Hot Gentlemen wrote: Our actions in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo haven’t stemmed the flow of terror volunteers; if anything, they’ve increased the ranks of the terrorists. Decades of harsh Israeli policy have only increased the number of volunteers for martyrdom.

excellent point. the former israeli policy of collective punishment only added to the anger of the palestinians and, as a result, to the number of terrorist bombings in israel (the one yesterday in tel aviv being near the old bus station--a really crappy part of town it must be said, filled with brothels and cheap falafel stands and outdoor street stalls that cater to the poor russian immigrants in the area. a good place to remain inconspicuous.).

AgentWood wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov, Last of the Red Hot Gentlemen wrote: Our actions in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo haven’t stemmed the flow of terror volunteers; if anything, they’ve increased the ranks of the terrorists. Decades of harsh Israeli policy have only increased the number of volunteers for martyrdom.

excellent point. the former israeli policy of collective punishment only added to the anger of the palestinians and, as a result, to the number of terrorist bombings in israel (the one yesterday in tel aviv being near the old bus station--a really crappy part of town it must be said, filled with brothels and cheap falafel stands and outdoor street stalls that cater to the poor russian immigrants in the area. a good place to remain inconspicuous.).

Good point, but to strengthen it, the Palestinians are tired of being considered the "lowest of the low" of the Arabic race. This only infurated them more as Israelis think they are a higher exsistance exterminating "cockroaches".

JHC

68 Pontiac wrote:

AgentWood wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov, Last of the Red Hot Gentlemen wrote: Our actions in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo haven’t stemmed the flow of terror volunteers; if anything, they’ve increased the ranks of the terrorists. Decades of harsh Israeli policy have only increased the number of volunteers for martyrdom.

excellent point. the former israeli policy of collective punishment only added to the anger of the palestinians and, as a result, to the number of terrorist bombings in israel (the one yesterday in tel aviv being near the old bus station--a really crappy part of town it must be said, filled with brothels and cheap falafel stands and outdoor street stalls that cater to the poor russian immigrants in the area. a good place to remain inconspicuous.).

Good point, but to strengthen it, the Palestinians are tired of being considered the "lowest of the low" of the Arabic race. This only infurated them more as Israelis think they are a higher exsistance exterminating "cockroaches".

JHC

the settlers are causing the most problems. most israelis are not zealots, but these people are uzi-toting, hate-filled manifest destiny-types.

i'm converting to reform judaism, and when i get my israeli citizenship i would never defend the settlers who live in modern, gated communities while the palestinians live in relative squalor. tikkun olam, or 'repairing the world' does not begin by killing others who are different from you.

AgentWood wrote:

the settlers are causing the most problems. most israelis are not zealots, but these people are uzi-toting, hate-filled manifest destiny-types.

i'm converting to reform judaism, and when i get my israeli citizenship i would never defend the settlers who live in modern, gated communities while the palestinians live in relative squalor. tikkun olam, or 'repairing the world' does not begin by killing others who are different from you.

AgentWood, Settlers is a nice term, I prefer squatter. (just being picky)

JHC

On a tangential note, the President Emeritus of my undergrad is affiliated with Tikkun.

Comrade Shampanyov, Last of the Red Hot Gentlemen wrote: Our actions in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo haven’t stemmed the flow of terror volunteers; if anything, they’ve increased the ranks of the terrorists. Decades of harsh Israeli policy have only increased the number of volunteers for martyrdom.

Not to bring up old stuff, but also thought here is a good example of how irresponsible our press is (in the terms of Abu Graib).

Now before I start getting hate posts for this statement, yes those that commited those stupid acts, should be prosecuted and put behind bars. The blame starts with them and I am not taking it off them.

However there is a point that the press needs to look at how this will help/hurt what is happening over there, and the possible world ripple effect it will cause. Our press does not do this as it is more interested in it's ratings and beating the other news channel in breaking news; then beating the topic to death to cause the most effect and keep you glued to that channel. . .solely for monetary returns and building their resumes.

How they handled this is a good example of how irrisponsible they are.

JHC

68 Pontiac wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov, Last of the Red Hot Gentlemen wrote: Our actions in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo haven’t stemmed the flow of terror volunteers; if anything, they’ve increased the ranks of the terrorists. Decades of harsh Israeli policy have only increased the number of volunteers for martyrdom.

Not to bring up old stuff, but also thought here is a good example of how irresponsible our press is (in the terms of Abu Graib).

Now before I start getting hate posts for this statement, yes those that commited those stupid acts, should be prosecuted and put behind bars. The blame starts with them and I am not taking it off them.

However there is a point that the press needs to look at how this will help/hurt what is happening over there, and the possible world ripple effect it will cause. Our press does not do this as it is more interested in it's ratings and beating the other news channel in breaking news; then beating the topic to death to cause the most effect and keep you glued to that channel. . .solely for monetary returns and building their resumes.

How they handled this is a good example of how irrisponsible they are.

JHC

I hear what you're saying about inflaming passions, 68, but...

I don't hold the privates responsible. They're just following somebody's orders. Of course, we established at Nuremberg that following orders isn't an excuse, but they're still just following orders. In the end, there was a policy in place from somebody higher up to abuse the prisoners.

It seems to me that rather than holding the press accountable fo inflaming passions, we could ask why those responsible for formulating the policy and ordering it to be implemented shouldn't be the ones held accountable for inflaming passions.

It seems to me that whoever was responsible injured America more than al Qaeda could have ever hoped to.

Comrade Shampanyov, Last of the Red Hot Gentlemen wrote: I hear what you're saying about inflaming passions, 68, but...

I don't hold the privates responsible. They're just following somebody's orders. Of course, we established at Nuremberg that following orders isn't an excuse, but they're still just following orders. In the end, there was a policy in place from somebody higher up to abuse the prisoners.

It seems to me that rather than holding the press accountable fo inflaming passions, we could ask why those responsible for formulating the policy and ordering it to be implemented shouldn't be the ones held accountable for inflaming passions.

It seems to me that whoever was responsible injured America more than al Qaeda could have ever hoped to.

That's a tricky thing though. . .not so cut and dry.

First the privates should know better, though those involved of higher rank should be punished harsher. What they where doing was beyond orders. Pictures of them enjoying themselves was not an order by any means. Soldiers and Marines alike are taught in Boot Camp (believe it or not) to think for themselves on what is right and wrong. If something is wrong they have anonomous ways to do notify higher. What they were doing was beyond thier orders.

Now here's the tricky part. . .what are their orders and who did it come from.
Military personnel have their orders on handling things, and Abu Grab was not it. They must have known they would be court martialed for. There are many groups of civilian personal that work like mercinaries. They don't wear uniform and don't go by our rules. That military personal listened to them was irresponsible of them, they by all rights should have known better.

That being said, this was during the begining of the occupation stage when not all the rules of prisoners was completely hashed out. . .adding to the confusion.

All in all, the Press took off on a topic that should have had little to no airplay. This was a war, and unspeakable things happen that shouldn't happen. No one can stop that, it's part of war.

JHC

Yeah, I didn't mean that the privates should be let off, just that I don't think the buck stops there. The privates can't use the excuse that they were just following orders, but we need to go up the chain of command to see where those orders came from. Ultimnately, the person or persons responsible for developing the policy and giving the orders should be held the most accountable.

Comrade Shampanyov, Last of the Red Hot Gentlemen wrote: On a tangential note, the President Emeritus of my undergrad is affiliated with Tikkun.

tikkun is a fundamental principle of reform judaism. in fact, pesach is oberved not only to remember the jews' flight from egypt but to remember all people who have been displaced throughout history and keep their memory alive through ritual and remembrance.

AgentWood wrote: pesach

It's all pops and buzzes, baby!

Comrade Shampanyov, Last of the Red Hot Gentlemen wrote: Yeah, I didn't mean that the privates should be let off, just that I don't think the buck stops there. The privates can't use the excuse that they were just following orders, but we need to go up the chain of command to see where those orders came from. Ultimnately, the person or persons responsible for developing the policy and giving the orders should be held the most accountable.

Here's why that isn't clear though:

1. The civilians workers involved run by different rules

2. it was the begining of the occupation. Geneuva Convention rules were not followed because the insurgency is not covered by them. Later it was decided to give military similar rules to the insurency. At the time of Abu Grab, it was not.

The problem is, legally, nothing wrong happened. Morally, of course, that is different. Those couldn't be brought to justice, because no rule stop the occurances from being able to happen. Which is also a touchy subject because those involved got slammed, when legally they probably shouldn't, however it was a scandal that needed to be closed. Was it done right? I don't know.

JHC

Sorry Pontiac.

I did not have the time to thank you for your answers the other day. I think that it has allowed a lot of us to see things differently...

Well, thank you, that is said.

Title of Thread:

Re: Moussaoui Trial

Holy hijax