Low Life

Christopher Owens wrote:

Al Jarvis wrote: And as for synthpop, what's 'synthpop' about the likes of Love Vig and Sunrise?!

Fair enough about Love Vig and Sunrise, but what about The Perfect Kiss, Sooner Than You Think and SubCulture.

the substance version of subculture is more 'synth-pop' than the one on low-life, surely? i first heard subculture when i bought substance in 1987, my first year as a fan. when i bought low-life the next year i was surprised to find how different it was from the newer version. yes, it uses synthesizers, but it doesn't have the heavily-produced sound of the substance subculture.

Jed Stephens wrote: While I'm not overly kenn on TPK, especially the album edit, Low life is one of the best albums, whatever your mood there's a track for you, dancy - TPK & sub culture, guitar pop - love vig, miserable as sin (as I was in 85 for alcohol related reasons) elagia, rocking - Sunrise (fantastic live) almost a perfext album, only beaten by technique and WFTC.

By the way Erasure didn't exist in 85, vince clark was in (or maybe just split) yazoo (or just yazz to the yanks) with alison moyet, then nothing till the late 80's.

Erasure were formed in 1985. First single/EP that year. First chart hits the year after.

Ha Ha. Someone has a go at Low-Life. I knew as soon as I saw this thread that there would be blood spilt. Its not my personal favorite – Technique is. Saying that – Technique hasn’t a better song than “Sooner than you think”. Low-Life will always be a close 2nd for me.

On the subject of “pioneering”, well, I don’t think it matters too much. Ill indulge a story; on the way down to Kraftwerk on Saturday, lots of people on the coach were chatting about the line up (as you do) – and all that 1 guy could keep on saying was “yeah- Kraftwerk, they’re pioneers”. It really amused me – I had a real shit-eating grin on every time he said it. Its not like what everyone else was saying was really insightful, or that I have anything particularly pertinent to say about the basis of their music. This was basically a bunch of people recycling the “analysis” of Music Journalists that likes to categorize various groups.

For my part: Kraftwerk appropriated the machinery and identity of the Ruhr Valley – and did it very well. They distilled their surroundings, imprinted their own character on the music – and occasionally engaged in a bit of technical tom-foolery. I don’t go to Kraftwerk because of the thought process, but because of what it produces. Any original or interesting thinkers in any field can be called “pioneers” – to me its just a nice way for those who don’t want to think about the thought process to pass it off – and that’s fine. It’s those David-Brent in trendy T-Shirt types that throw the term about in order to be seen, as is some sense knowledgeable that really get me. As I say, it used to annoy me – now I just find it funny.

In a similar sense – Ill never forget being in and around Manchester, and thinking how well Joy Division represented it musically. New Order less so, but they are, my favorite groups. They weren’t the first to use synthesizers or drum machines, and probably not the first to try and cross dancy vibes and rock bass, etc. It basically doesn’t matter. I like them because they just communicate well to me. That’s a pretty subjective thing.

On the “goth” thing – I gather New Order are a lot cooler in the states than in these parts. Certainly in Ireland, they are more likely to be remembered as Worldinmotion / poor stadium band / slightly poppy group that did regret than as alternative / pioneers / independents that I gather they are in the states. As I say – what they say to you can be very different to what they say to those in your milieu. For my part: I don’t like labels – and Low Life is a fucking great album. One of my all time greats.

CAKE - CLOCK - ZWART wrote: Ha Ha. Someone has a go at Low-Life. I knew as soon as I saw this thread that there would be blood spilt. Its not my personal favorite – Technique is. Saying that – Technique hasn’t a better song than “Sooner than you think”. Low-Life will always be a close 2nd for me.

On the subject of “pioneering”, well, I don’t think it matters too much. Ill indulge a story; on the way down to Kraftwerk on Saturday, lots of people on the coach were chatting about the line up (as you do) – and all that 1 guy could keep on saying was “yeah- Kraftwerk, they’re pioneers”. It really amused me – I had a real shit-eating grin on every time he said it. Its not like what everyone else was saying was really insightful, or that I have anything particularly pertinent to say about the basis of their music. This was basically a bunch of people recycling the “analysis” of Music Journalists that likes to categorize various groups.

For my part: Kraftwerk appropriated the machinery and identity of the Ruhr Valley – and did it very well. They distilled their surroundings, imprinted their own character on the music – and occasionally engaged in a bit of technical tom-foolery. I don’t go to Kraftwerk because of the thought process, but because of what it produces. Any original or interesting thinkers in any field can be called “pioneers” – to me its just a nice way for those who don’t want to think about the thought process to pass it off – and that’s fine. It’s those David-Brent in trendy T-Shirt types that throw the term about in order to be seen, as is some sense knowledgeable that really get me. As I say, it used to annoy me – now I just find it funny.

In a similar sense – Ill never forget being in and around Manchester, and thinking how well Joy Division represented it musically. New Order less so, but they are, my favorite groups. They weren’t the first to use synthesizers or drum machines, and probably not the first to try and cross dancy vibes and rock bass, etc. It basically doesn’t matter. I like them because they just communicate well to me. That’s a pretty subjective thing.

On the “goth” thing – I gather New Order are a lot cooler in the states than in these parts. Certainly in Ireland, they are more likely to be remembered as Worldinmotion / poor stadium band / slightly poppy group that did regret than as alternative / pioneers / independents that I gather they are in the states. As I say – what they say to you can be very different to what they say to those in your milieu. For my part: I don’t like labels – and Low Life is a fucking great album. One of my all time greats.

CAKE - CLOCK - ZWART wrote: Ha Ha. Someone has a go at Low-Life. I knew as soon as I saw this thread that there would be blood spilt. Its not my personal favorite – Technique is. Saying that – Technique hasn’t a better song than “Sooner than you think”. Low-Life will always be a close 2nd for me.

On the subject of “pioneering”, well, I don’t think it matters too much. Ill indulge a story; on the way down to Kraftwerk on Saturday, lots of people on the coach were chatting about the line up (as you do) – and all that 1 guy could keep on saying was “yeah- Kraftwerk, they’re pioneers”. It really amused me – I had a real shit-eating grin on every time he said it. Its not like what everyone else was saying was really insightful, or that I have anything particularly pertinent to say about the basis of their music. This was basically a bunch of people recycling the “analysis” of Music Journalists that likes to categorize various groups.

For my part: Kraftwerk appropriated the machinery and identity of the Ruhr Valley – and did it very well. They distilled their surroundings, imprinted their own character on the music – and occasionally engaged in a bit of technical tom-foolery. I don’t go to Kraftwerk because of the thought process, but because of what it produces. Any original or interesting thinkers in any field can be called “pioneers” – to me its just a nice way for those who don’t want to think about the thought process to pass it off – and that’s fine. It’s those David-Brent in trendy T-Shirt types that throw the term about in order to be seen, as is some sense knowledgeable that really get me. As I say, it used to annoy me – now I just find it funny.

In a similar sense – Ill never forget being in and around Manchester, and thinking how well Joy Division represented it musically. New Order less so, but they are, my favorite groups. They weren’t the first to use synthesizers or drum machines, and probably not the first to try and cross dancy vibes and rock bass, etc. It basically doesn’t matter. I like them because they just communicate well to me. That’s a pretty subjective thing.

On the “goth” thing – I gather New Order are a lot cooler in the states than in these parts. Certainly in Ireland, they are more likely to be remembered as Worldinmotion / poor stadium band / slightly poppy group that did regret than as alternative / pioneers / independents that I gather they are in the states. As I say – what they say to you can be very different to what they say to those in your milieu. For my part: I don’t like labels – and Low Life is a fucking great album. One of my all time greats.

Ha! Pulled the trigger too quickly. Let's try again. I agree that the notion of Kraftwerk as pioneers is pretty redundant in 2005. I think the point is that at *once* they were pretty much out there on their own. I am not sure how much it was a calculated move to become the mensch-machines, or whether they gradually found themselves there. Certainly there is pretty big difference between the v.early Ralf & Florian stuff (flutes!) and Autobahn. But you're right, it reflected their environment pretty well and some cunning marketing/styling created an artistic space for them that was probably less original than it looked. They were just better conceptualizers than the likes of Faust, Harmonia, Cluster, Neu! But who cares? It's the output that matters.

New Order are more interesting and hard to pin down if you think about process vs image vs output in the same way. The Factory recds machine was pretty haphazard, but it didn't hurt NO to have their records in Peter Saville sleeves. I', not sure any of us know enough about exactly how they work to say how they did what they did, or what they were aiming at in the first place. I reckon they worked largely on instinct in the earlier years, trying different stuff to see what worked and what they liked. The first album with a coherent sound *that could readily be place in an external context* (i.e didn't jar with '89 dance) was probably Technique. Low-Life is a mish-mash, they're still pushing forward, and that's why it's great.

What was the 'goth thing'?

Low Life should be their best album, given the quality of the songs on it. A pity that it sounds produced and edited by trainees. Then again, doing themselves justice was never that high on the agenda, was it?

Surely it's genrally acknowleged these days that the "image" and "enigmatic" qualities were largely the work of Gretton, Wilson, Saville et al, and that the band themselves were much more interested in getting off their tits in one way or another? When I were a youth, I used to think they were glacial, intellectual Gods: imagine my face when I first started picking up bootlegs and realised they were talentless pernod-swilling chancers with a neat line in foul and abusive language and barely concealed contempt for their audience.

Someone from the Sugarcubes once said that true love is when you like your partner's fart as much as you like your partner's fuck.......

If you do not like Low-Life I guess what you are saying is that NO should not have released an album until Brotherhood, not that there are many introspective songs on that lp, nor on Technique.

Jed Stephens wrote: While I'm not overly kenn on TPK, especially the album edit, Low life is one of the best albums, whatever your mood there's a track for you, dancy - TPK & sub culture, guitar pop - love vig, miserable as sin (as I was in 85 for alcohol related reasons) elagia, rocking - Sunrise (fantastic live) almost a perfext album, only beaten by technique and WFTC.

By the way Erasure didn't exist in 85, vince clark was in (or maybe just split) yazoo (or just yazz to the yanks) with alison moyet, then nothing till the late 80's.

Erasure charted with thir first hit (Sometimes) in 1986.

Doctor Clayhead wrote: Surely it's genrally acknowleged these days that the "image" and "enigmatic" qualities were largely the work of Gretton, Wilson, Saville et al, and that the band themselves were much more interested in getting off their tits in one way or another? When I were a youth, I used to think they were glacial, intellectual Gods: imagine my face when I first started picking up bootlegs and realised they were talentless pernod-swilling chancers with a neat line in foul and abusive language and barely concealed contempt for their audience.

quote]

But, regardless of the hooligan side of NO, the music was up to the job of matching the glacial, intellectual artwork. Which proves thay they are/were much cleverer than they appear. Anyone can make cock jokes and drink themselves stupid. Hardly anyone can write a Temptation or a TPK.

DC wrote:

Doctor Clayhead wrote: Surely it's genrally acknowleged these days that the "image" and "enigmatic" qualities were largely the work of Gretton, Wilson, Saville et al, and that the band themselves were much more interested in getting off their tits in one way or another? When I were a youth, I used to think they were glacial, intellectual Gods: imagine my face when I first started picking up bootlegs and realised they were talentless pernod-swilling chancers with a neat line in foul and abusive language and barely concealed contempt for their audience.

quote]

But, regardless of the hooligan side of NO, the music was up to the job of matching the glacial, intellectual artwork. Which proves thay they are/were much cleverer than they appear. Anyone can make cock jokes and drink themselves stupid. Hardly anyone can write a Temptation or a TPK.

Yeah, but few people can make cock jokes and drink themselves stupid with quite as much panache as New Order and their fans, eh?

twist wrote: If you do not like Low-Life I guess what you are saying is that NO should not have released an album until Brotherhood, not that there are many introspective songs on that lp, nor on Technique.

I think this is what you mean:

If you don't like/dislike the same album as me, you're not a real fan.

Al Jarvis wrote:

Er, Blue Monday certainly isn't 'techno'

I think that it, at least, has certain techno elements to it e.g. the famous drumbeats.

Al Jarvis wrote: and is perhaps only pioneering in the sense that it opened up this 'sort' of music to a different audience, but in no way was the arrangement itself pioneering. Check out Patrick Cowley (RIP) if you need proof.

Is this the same Patrick Cowley whose remix of 'I Feel Love' is on NO'S Back To Mine?

DC wrote:

Jed Stephens wrote: While I'm not overly kenn on TPK, especially the album edit, Low life is one of the best albums, whatever your mood there's a track for you, dancy - TPK & sub culture, guitar pop - love vig, miserable as sin (as I was in 85 for alcohol related reasons) elagia, rocking - Sunrise (fantastic live) almost a perfext album, only beaten by technique and WFTC.

By the way Erasure didn't exist in 85, vince clark was in (or maybe just split) yazoo (or just yazz to the yanks) with alison moyet, then nothing till the late 80's.

Erasure were formed in 1985. First single/EP that year. First chart hits the year after.

Don't forget The Assembly as well, post Yazoo, pre- Erasure. First Erasure album, Wonderland was 1986.

Who said there was no NO/Erasure crossover here

Christopher Owens wrote:

I think that it, at least, has certain techno elements to it e.g. the famous drumbeats.

You'll find that people who know fuck-all about New Order, synthpop, or anything before 1991 for that matter still know that drum sequence by heart. It's scorched onto the popculture subconscious for all time the same way the synthy pulse melody of BLT is.

BEST NO ALBUM...Technique is a close second if you take out fine time.

That one really hurts my ears

((((e))))

What's all this 'introspective' malarky? Low-Life's got some class songs. If you don't think so, no one's forcing you to like it!