I see, so THIS is where the sleeve image to "Regret" came from?!

I don't think we should be scared of critisising something just because the guy that did it sometimes posts here.

We should certainly fear critisizing Bill's leaf because, like the UP rendering, it's a brilliant reworking of an image that many people find iconic.

By the time a band reaches the stage that New Order are at, it's not enough to come up with something new and original. A certain amount of homage has to be paid to the past. How much critisism do we see on here for new songs that 'don't sound like New Order'. I can't be arsed with the new stuff that doesn't have that New Order sound. Similarly, I don't want to see new artwork that doesn't make clear reference to what's gone before.

That's why the mesh leaf was one of the best things to come out of New Order in ages. A combination of the True Faith leaf and a nod towards the aesthetic of Unknown Pleasures, how cool is that? A more modern design than you could dare to wish for, but a clear reference to two of the most important (in so far as this sort of thing can be considered important) images that they've been associated with before. Certainly gets my vote.

I quite like the orange No, but can see how it could have been a bit of a dissapointment. But I can't see how anyone can't love the mesh leaf.

Still, each to his own I suppose

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote: I would love to see that employed on a physical sleeve design - preferably a 12" cover. It would be simply awesome.

It's on the front of Designed by Peter Saville and is also available as an eye-wateringly expensive art print from Paul Stolper.

Link

But honestly, if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it

Also available is a 3d model that looks edible, but you can't even afford to ask how much that is. It wouldn't last five minutes in my house because I would lick it to destruction.

Link

Especially the brown one...

Link

I agree that, while not wanting to see any great image tarted to death by being put on every flat surface imaginable, a copy of UP for the masses would be a welcome thing.

Unknown Pleasures remastered anyone? *ducks*

Actually, now that you've drawn my attention to it B.I.O., I'd better elaborate on my earlier post that might have caused a bit of a misunderstanding..... I admit I dismissed all the "white" sleeve designs that have been coming our way of late, and I particularly found the "WFTSC" and "Singles" covers a tad uninspired - but this is principally for the expanse of white and the Helvetica font more than anything. I would therefore agree that the reinterpretation of the leaf itself on the singles cover is a nifty piece of work on its own. With hindsight, maybe I should have made this clearer so as to avoid any misinterpretation of my comments. But I would then offer my own unreserved view that the gold leaf would have been far better complemented with a black or navy blue or other darker choice of colour background rather than white. It would stand out far better IMO - and thus with a different font for the title, the cover would have been striking rather than merely quite average.

The "No" on WFTSC was just a bit of a let down really. The images of the girl in the waterfall as used on the title track single release should have been used - it would have made a far better album cover. I do realise that this was probably the original choice were it not for the alleged reason that the Indonesian Tsunami disaster rendered the image a tad contentious (a spurious reason anyway if that is indeed why the cover was changed at the last minute - I mean, what's that all about?) but in all honesty, who were they afraid of upsetting? It's not as if the picture alludes to anything specific so why get so paranoid that it would be considered in poor taste? Did Warners advise the band to pull it?

I just thought that the big orange "No" had such negative implications visually speaking, and I dare say it served its purpose in putting people off buying the album - after all, the sales weren't exactly spectacular were they?! ;)

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote: Actually, now that you've drawn my attention to it B.I.O., I'd better elaborate on my earlier post that might have caused a bit of a misunderstanding..... I admit I dismissed all the "white" sleeve designs that have been coming our way of late, and I particularly found the "WFTSC" and "Singles" covers a tad uninspired - but this is principally for the expanse of white and the Helvetica font more than anything. I would therefore agree that the reinterpretation of the leaf itself on the singles cover is a nifty piece of work on its own. With hindsight, maybe I should have made this clearer so as to avoid any misinterpretation of my comments. But I would then offer my own unreserved view that the gold leaf would have been far better complemented with a black or navy blue or other darker choice of colour background rather than white. It would stand out far better IMO - and thus with a different font for the title, the cover would have been striking rather than merely quite average.

The "No" on WFTSC was just a bit of a let down really. The images of the girl in the waterfall as used on the title track single release should have been used - it would have made a far better album cover. I do realise that this was probably the original choice were it not for the alleged reason that the Indonesian Tsunami disaster rendered the image a tad contentious (a spurious reason anyway if that is indeed why the cover was changed at the last minute - I mean, what's that all about?) but in all honesty, who were they afraid of upsetting? It's not as if the picture alludes to anything specific so why get so paranoid that it would be considered in poor taste? Did Warners advise the band to pull it?

I just thought that the big orange "No" had such negative implications visually speaking, and I dare say it served its purpose in putting people off buying the album - after all, the sales weren't exactly spectacular were they?! ;)

Just thought i would make it clear that i hadn't taken your earlier comments bitterly, and the reply i had left wasn't supposed to come over that way. I was just throwing in another viewpoint to fire up a bit of debate .

I read the posts fairly frequently, and for obvious reasons like to read the discussions on the cover art side of things, although as a long standing New Order & Joy Division fan, i am interested in every aspect of them.

The reason why i have been lucky enough to work on a few related pieces of artwork, is a direct result of this love for the band, and i guess i only posted the response i did, because regardless of what Peter may, or may not think of doing that work these days, it means a fuck of a lot to me, and i wouldn't for one minute want people to think that any of the work i put my name to, has been without thought. If i didn't give a shit, i wouldn't be so happy to work on freebies for the Vikings etc.

That said, i actually really enjoy the heated exchanges which take place on these forums, and even when somebody is venting their intense dislike about something, it's only demonstrating how much people still care about EVERY aspect of the band and their identity. So don't for one minute think that just because i worked on a few related pieces, and frequent the forums, that you have to either tread carefully or hold back in any way. If you really fucking hate something then thats fine, i am just interested in "why?", because i always like the other point of view.

I hear what you are saying about the "No" cover for WFTSC, and it is only because i have spoken to Peter about it, that i have had some added insight. Anyway, when it comes to type, thats not what i'm about, and i would never claim to be a graphic designer in that sense. Morph is more about artwork/illustration/and 3D, and it's purely by combining our approach with Peter's that we have been able to come up with some interesting and different results. There are a stack of non-new order based projects we have worked on, where there has perhaps been more in terms of experimentation, because it has been more of a clean slate i.e. not having to reflect a pre-determined identity. One thing i would say, is that having had a 5 year working relationship with Peter, i have come to realise just how gifted he is with visual language and communication. There are plenty of occasions where he has explained his ideas behind pieces of his work, and really opened my eyes, to just how much my eyes may have missed!

Anyway Mark, keep it coming, because i reckon the band are lucky (not that they don't deserve it), to have a following of so many people who care enough to actually talk about these things. It's certainly better than other forums for more recent clone bands, where all they talk about is their fucking clothes and haircuts.

cheers

Bill

P.S. sorry that was so long-winded!!!

...oh and we are still planning the launch of a couple of, lets just say "affordable", alternate prints for the masses, so watch this space.

Bill Holding wrote: ...oh and we are still planning the launch of a couple of, lets just say "affordable", alternate prints for the masses, so watch this space.

GOOD-it will be just what i need when i move house.I must admit the ones BIGINOIL has pointed out are SUPERB.

Bill Holding wrote:

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote: Actually, now that you've drawn my attention to it B.I.O., I'd better elaborate on my earlier post that might have caused a bit of a misunderstanding..... I admit I dismissed all the "white" sleeve designs that have been coming our way of late, and I particularly found the "WFTSC" and "Singles" covers a tad uninspired - but this is principally for the expanse of white and the Helvetica font more than anything. I would therefore agree that the reinterpretation of the leaf itself on the singles cover is a nifty piece of work on its own. With hindsight, maybe I should have made this clearer so as to avoid any misinterpretation of my comments. But I would then offer my own unreserved view that the gold leaf would have been far better complemented with a black or navy blue or other darker choice of colour background rather than white. It would stand out far better IMO - and thus with a different font for the title, the cover would have been striking rather than merely quite average.

The "No" on WFTSC was just a bit of a let down really. The images of the girl in the waterfall as used on the title track single release should have been used - it would have made a far better album cover. I do realise that this was probably the original choice were it not for the alleged reason that the Indonesian Tsunami disaster rendered the image a tad contentious (a spurious reason anyway if that is indeed why the cover was changed at the last minute - I mean, what's that all about?) but in all honesty, who were they afraid of upsetting? It's not as if the picture alludes to anything specific so why get so paranoid that it would be considered in poor taste? Did Warners advise the band to pull it?

I just thought that the big orange "No" had such negative implications visually speaking, and I dare say it served its purpose in putting people off buying the album - after all, the sales weren't exactly spectacular were they?! ;)

Just thought i would make it clear that i hadn't taken your earlier comments bitterly, and the reply i had left wasn't supposed to come over that way. I was just throwing in another viewpoint to fire up a bit of debate .

I read the posts fairly frequently, and for obvious reasons like to read the discussions on the cover art side of things, although as a long standing New Order & Joy Division fan, i am interested in every aspect of them.

The reason why i have been lucky enough to work on a few related pieces of artwork, is a direct result of this love for the band, and i guess i only posted the response i did, because regardless of what Peter may, or may not think of doing that work these days, it means a fuck of a lot to me, and i wouldn't for one minute want people to think that any of the work i put my name to, has been without thought. If i didn't give a shit, i wouldn't be so happy to work on freebies for the Vikings etc.

That said, i actually really enjoy the heated exchanges which take place on these forums, and even when somebody is venting their intense dislike about something, it's only demonstrating how much people still care about EVERY aspect of the band and their identity. So don't for one minute think that just because i worked on a few related pieces, and frequent the forums, that you have to either tread carefully or hold back in any way. If you really fucking hate something then thats fine, i am just interested in "why?", because i always like the other point of view.

I hear what you are saying about the "No" cover for WFTSC, and it is only because i have spoken to Peter about it, that i have had some added insight. Anyway, when it comes to type, thats not what i'm about, and i would never claim to be a graphic designer in that sense. Morph is more about artwork/illustration/and 3D, and it's purely by combining our approach with Peter's that we have been able to come up with some interesting and different results. There are a stack of non-new order based projects we have worked on, where there has perhaps been more in terms of experimentation, because it has been more of a clean slate i.e. not having to reflect a pre-determined identity. One thing i would say, is that having had a 5 year working relationship with Peter, i have come to realise just how gifted he is with visual language and communication. There are plenty of occasions where he has explained his ideas behind pieces of his work, and really opened my eyes, to just how much my eyes may have missed!

Anyway Mark, keep it coming, because i reckon the band are lucky (not that they don't deserve it), to have a following of so many people who care enough to actually talk about these things. It's certainly better than other forums for more recent clone bands, where all they talk about is their fucking clothes and haircuts.

cheers

Bill

P.S. sorry that was so long-winded!!!

Good post Bill - and no it's not longwinded, cos everyone here can be as rambling as they want when they discuss NO/JD! Of course it must be a real honour to be able to be involved in a creative capacity with [people connected to] your heroes. The buzz you'd get from that is undeniable. Who wouldn't feel proud about that? :) You're completely right with your analysis there though. And it's true that many of us are so fully engrossed with the band that we CAN be very critical, flippant, sarky or bitchy or whatever as well as be full of unreserved praise and enthusiasm when the occasion demands. It all comes from sharing a common obsession with our heroes I suppose.

Mind you I'm also quite passionate in my feelings about another band of late - in case you haven't noticed. And they are called The Killers!

Now perhaps we should look at THEIR image and record sleeves (and laugh our collective tits off).

but i love the NOOL forum BECAUSE of the "critical, flippant, sarky or bitchy or whatever" repartee! See, i had the mis-fortune of being born in the South (although my family are originally from further north), and having gone to College up North (well, Nottingham at least), plus having a Scottish girlfriend (i am a sucker for a Scottish accent), i like a bit of feistiness! To be honest, i can't live without it, so bring on the abuse!!!!

...oh and as far as the killers go, lets just say their version of Shadowplay, won't be getting prioritised over the original in a hurry! I would say stick to the day job, but then i have heard that too.

To be honest i kind of feel a bit bad for them, because i think they probably ARE genuine NO/JD fans, and would probably be gutted if they read some of the responses!

....still.....

shit happens!

Okey dokey Bill - no problems - more slaggings and petty bitchiness will no doubt follow at some point soon! I do find it quite amusing that some of the discussions here get so heated and intense, as does some of the rivalry between a few more established forumers. ;)

But it's already quite obvious who my current favourite whipping boys are, I mean, how CAN you take seriously a band whose singer penned that immortal line: "Somebody told me that you had a boyfriend, that looked like my girlfriend......"

It makes even the worst of New Order's lyrical faux pas seem like the collected works of Baudelaire!

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote: Okey dokey Bill - no problems - more slaggings and petty bitchiness will no doubt follow at some point soon! I do find it quite amusing that some of the discussions here get so heated and intense, as does some of the rivalry between a few more established forumers. ;)

But it's already quite obvious who my current favourite whipping boys are, I mean, how CAN you take seriously a band whose singer penned that immortal line: "Somebody told me that you had a boyfriend, that looked like my girlfriend......"

It makes even the worst of New Order's lyrical faux pas seem like the collected works of Baudelaire!

i take it you know where they nicked their name from as well

the wierd thing is that for a band that are supposed to love "indie rock and roll", it seems strange they should be starting to look like a Village People tribute act.

Bill Holding wrote:

i take it you know where they nicked their name from as well

Yep - it's very clear to see - the 1977 JD song title - minus the ERS bit obviously!!

Bill Holding wrote:

the wierd thing is that for a band that are supposed to love "indie rock and roll", it seems strange they should be starting to look like a Village People tribute act.

Exactly!! That's what I thought likewise when I copped an eyefull of those "new image" pics they unleashed when their second album came out. Bloody hilarious or what??

something a member here whipped up in 2 mins

now i normally like all the sleeves, but really.

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote:

Bill Holding wrote:

i take it you know where they nicked their name from as well

Yep - it's very clear to see - the 1977 JD song title - minus the ERS bit obviously!!

Bill Holding wrote:

the wierd thing is that for a band that are supposed to love "indie rock and roll", it seems strange they should be starting to look like a Village People tribute act.

Exactly!! That's what I thought likewise when I copped an eyefull of those "new image" pics they unleashed when their second album came out. Bloody hilarious or what??

it is also the name of the band that are in the "Crystal" video, in place of the Order

NOOLigan wrote: something a member here whipped up in 2 mins

now i normally like all the sleeves, but really.

"No" was Peter's response to working on another album, as he pointed out in a recent interview.

Bill Holding wrote:

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote:

Bill Holding wrote:

i take it you know where they nicked their name from as well

Yep - it's very clear to see - the 1977 JD song title - minus the ERS bit obviously!!

Bill Holding wrote:

the wierd thing is that for a band that are supposed to love "indie rock and roll", it seems strange they should be starting to look like a Village People tribute act.

Exactly!! That's what I thought likewise when I copped an eyefull of those "new image" pics they unleashed when their second album came out. Bloody hilarious or what??

it is also the name of the band that are in the "Crystal" video, in place of the Order

Aaaaah yes - that's it! of course it is! I momentarilly forgot about that one. And of course Foghorn Cremehorn (aka Brandon Flowers) guested on a much-publicised version of Crystal with his heroes later on didnt he?

Shug Sludden wrote:

...I wonder how many people grasped this when looking at the design...

Probably anyone who took a moment to think about it, rather than just jumping to the conclusion that it's rubbish because it's new.

It has to be said, the font on Singles was awful. And those 12x12 were a wonderful idea but badly printed on crap quality sleeves.

Must try harder

[orange]When I first saw the WFTSC sleeve, I thought it was a tongue in cheek swipe at the old WHAM! or FRankie Goes to Hollywood stuff.

When I have worn the tour shirt here in the US foks think it is an anti-drug "just say NO" freebie. The black shirt looked a lot better, but to me it was un-original. Black background, white print...boring!

At least we were all saved from that pale pink Saville used on his clothing.[/orange]

That's funny - I suggested to Howard Wakefield that they might have been making a reference to Right Said Fred's album (if you don't know what this is, don't bother to find out!) That was one of the first to use a bold, brightly-coloured image that's visible from the other side of a shop in the cd format, rather than designing a 12" sleeve and shrinking it down.

His response could best be described as 'cool'.

BIGINOIL wrote:

Shug Sludden wrote:

...I wonder how many people grasped this when looking at the design...

Probably anyone who took a moment to think about it, rather than just jumping to the conclusion that it's rubbish because it's new.

It has to be said, the font on Singles was awful. And those 12x12 were a wonderful idea but badly printed on crap quality sleeves.

Must try harder

The 12x12 singles were nothing to do with Saville Associates, as Warner just gave away the artwork, without any permission etc, and fucked a lot of people off. I have no idea who chose the colours or who suggested using a fucking Coldplay font on the 12's either. Still they look alright from a distance i guess, and like you say, nice idea, shame about the half arsed execution.

Bill, I had read about "No" being Saville's objection to doing another sleeve. I had also read that the cover was originally to feature the picture of the fishing boats (from the inner sleeve), but that the band decided against it because of the recent tsunami.

Do you know what the cover was originally supposed to look like?

I have always thought that the CD artwork would have looked nicer had the orange "No" been printed (silkscreened, whatever) on a clear plastic slipcase and the fishing boat scene had been on the front of the inlay. This way, when you slide the CD inside the slipcase, you would see the "No" written on top. Designers Republic did something similar on the limited edition version of LFO's "Sheath."

The intended sleeve was the one that was finally used on the single of WFTSC. The story that was circulated at the time was that the whole oriental woman/water business was too much for Warners so they pulled the sleeve and asked Saville for another one. The 'No' image was one that he'd played with before and, given the short deadline, he used that. Given the source of the recent adaptations, that No was his response to the request for another cover (if not from the horse's mouth, certainly from someone nestling in his nosebag) I don't think we should doubt them.

The picture was taken from a fantastic anthology of photographs from Life magazine and shows a Tahitian(?) girl having a wash in a river.

I hope this helps you in your quest.

If there's going to be cheap prints for the masses made... PLEASE make up a poster for the Joy Division 'Les Bain Douchees(?)' cd, that cover is one of the most brilliant images I've ever seen and I think it would look amazing poster-size.

FtotheDoubleOff wrote: If there's going to be cheap prints for the masses made... PLEASE make up a poster for the Joy Division 'Les Bain Douchees(?)' cd, that cover is one of the most brilliant images I've ever seen and I think it would look amazing poster-size.

The artwork we are working on for the prints has never been previously available, but are alternate versions of pieces you will recognise that we produced. Don't worry, we will be making sure that everybody using this site finds out about them first, and that will probably mean that you also get them cheaper too. The size, etc is still to be finalised, but we hope to have it all sorted within the next couple of months. I will post a topic, so that people can register their interest in them prior to release, so that we can make sure that those who do, don't miss out.

Bill Holding wrote:

FtotheDoubleOff wrote: If there's going to be cheap prints for the masses made... PLEASE make up a poster for the Joy Division 'Les Bain Douchees(?)' cd, that cover is one of the most brilliant images I've ever seen and I think it would look amazing poster-size.

The artwork we are working on for the prints has never been previously available, but are alternate versions of pieces you will recognise that we produced. Don't worry, we will be making sure that everybody using this site finds out about them first, and that will probably mean that you also get them cheaper too. The size, etc is still to be finalised, but we hope to have it all sorted within the next couple of months. I will post a topic, so that people can register their interest in them prior to release, so that we can make sure that those who do, don't miss out.

You can register my interest now. can't wait to see them.

Bill Holding wrote:

...we hope to have it all sorted within the next couple of months...

Looking good for Christmas then?

100% Factory

BIGINOIL wrote:

Bill Holding wrote:

...we hope to have it all sorted within the next couple of months...

Looking good for Christmas then?

100% Factory

Ha! do i detect a note of sarcasm there !?!? Don't blame you though, they were supposed to ready for Christmas just gone, but we just got snowed under, and we want to get them right rather than just rushed out for the sake of it.

We also got to check with Peter that we have the green light, although when i last spoke to him it seemed as though there wouldn't be any problem.

I will hopefully be posting an email address for pre-release interest within a month or so, the idea being that we can get them to the people who count (NOOLers) before they go on general sale, and all the ebay bandits get their hands on them! The editions will be limited in numbers, but don't worry they aren't going to cost 3 or 4 figure sums, like some of the others out there. Well...not to you guys anyway.

Oh and they will be available worldwide, so don't feel like you have to live in old Blighty to be able to get them.

Bill Holding wrote:

BIGINOIL wrote:

Bill Holding wrote:

...we hope to have it all sorted within the next couple of months...

Looking good for Christmas then?

100% Factory

Ha! do i detect a note of sarcasm there !?!? Don't blame you though, they were supposed to ready for Christmas just gone, but we just got snowed under, and we want to get them right rather than just rushed out for the sake of it.

We also got to check with Peter that we have the green light, although when i last spoke to him it seemed as though there wouldn't be any problem.

I will hopefully be posting an email address for pre-release interest within a month or so, the idea being that we can get them to the people who count (NOOLers) before they go on general sale, and all the ebay bandits get their hands on them! The editions will be limited in numbers, but don't worry they aren't going to cost 3 or 4 figure sums, like some of the others out there. Well...not to you guys anyway.

Oh and they will be available worldwide, so don't feel like you have to live in old Blighty to be able to get them.

including here?

ah well i probably have to source it via a grey import shop in Sydney.