Log file - errors on the "Remastered" Factory Years CDs

NEW ORDER 2008 COLLECTOR'S EDITION DOUBLE CDs "The Factory Years"

This is a log file of complaints so far, and my intention is to update it as they arrive. The list is not finished yet - keep them coming!

The list below was originally referring to the October 2008 Rhino UK/Europe release, but THESE ERRORS STILL HAVEN'T BEEN FIXED FOR THE U.S. RELEASE (NOV. 11, 2008). WARNING - DO NOT BUY THESE YET, UNLESS YOU WANT FAULTY DISCS!!!

[orange]UPDATE (August 2009): We are still waiting for the replacement "corrected" CDs - the faulty ones are still on the shelves all over the world. Word from Rhino is that CD1 of "Movement" and "Low-life" are going to be identical to the first release, so the drop-outs in "The Him" and "Sunrise" will still be there. In the meantime, Rhino have re-issued the same albums on vinyl, with brand new errors (see below).[/orange]

[orange]UPDATE (May 2009): The band and label are working on re-sourcing and re-mastering all the CDs - new CDs will apparently be released (16th June?) 2009. Watch this space! It hasn't yet been confirmed whether the tracks have been properly mastered this time, or if there's been attempts to "repair" the faulty masters. I'd suggest do NOT pre-order these yet - wait until we have confirmation that they are definitely error-free.[/orange]

Number of confirmed errors: 300 and counting...(well, I suppose we have given up counting by now...) (all the glitches in "Fine Line" etc. not included - anybody got timings for these?)

By no means is this a definitive list - there's likely more errors that haven't yet been spotted. If you notice any, please say so! Exact time for glitches may be one or two seconds off, depending on what hardware you use. Warning: This list is not to be used for software de-noising or other types of "error correction". The point I wish to make is that more or less all of these tracks are completely unusable and need to be remastered from the correct (analogue/digital master) sources.

Some lessons one could learn from this:

1. It's not a good idea to record tracks from vinyl (or other poor quality sources) and try to pass them off as a "remastered" CD release.
2. It's a better idea to QA the products BEFORE they go out to the shops, than afterwards.
3. No wonder people turn to illegal downloads if this is the quality you get when you pay dearly for a "deluxe edition"

Movement (1981):

1. Dreams Never End
2. Truth
3. Senses
4. Chosen Time
5. I.C.B
6. The Him - Glitch at 5:25-5:26
7. Doubts Even Here
8. Denial

Movement - bonus disc:

1. Ceremony
2. Temptation - Version info missing from CDtext entry (click at 3:47 - unconfirmed)
3. In A Lonely Place (levels are maxed out which has caused clipping - unconfirmed)
4. Everything's Gone Green
5. Procession
6. Cries & Whispers (mislabelled as "Mesh" - unconfirmed) (glitches at 0:06, 0:07, 0:08, 0:28, 0:34, and 0:45 - unconfirmed)
7. Hurt - Glitches at 0:00, 0:37, 1:05, 1:07, 3:04, 3:48, 4:06, 6:19, 6:24, 7:07, 7:26, 7:59)
8. Mesh (mislabelled as "Cries & Whispers" - unconfirmed) - Evidence of scratched vinyl at 0:28, 0:30, 0:35, 0:37, 1:05, 1:07, 1:09, 1:12, 1:14, 1:19, 1:21, 1:40, 1:41, 2:08, 2:09, 2:17, 2:18, 2:19, 2:24, 2:26, 2:28, 2:33, 2:35. In addition, digital glitches at: 0:07, 0:20, 0:44, 0:58, 1:00, 1:25, 1:33, 1:37, 1:44, 1:47, 1:49, 1:56, 1:58, 2:12, 2:22, 2:37, 2:40, 2:49, 2:54, 2:56. Sudden convergence to mono at 1:35.
9. Ceremony (Alt. Version) -L/R channels swapped
10. Temptation - Version info missing from CDtext entry. Left channel crackle at 0:24 CDtext: "Artist" information is missingCDtext: "Title" information is missing

Power, Corruption and Lies (1983): 1, Age of consent 2, We all stand 3, The village 4, 586 ("abrupt ending", "drops the last 4 bass notes" - unconfirmed) 5, Your silent face 6, Ultraviolence 7, Ecstasy 8, Leave me alone

Power, Corruption and Lies - bonus disc: 1, Blue Monday (L/R pans 0:07[sudden], and between 0:19 and 2:24. At 2:24 it pans back again. Unconfirmed whether this is on the original 12 inch) 2, The Beach 3, Confusion - Clicks at 4:04 and 6:00 (Left channel click at 8:06 - unconfirmed whether this is on the original 12 inch) 4, Thieves like us CDtext track info says "ThEIves Like Us" 5, Lonesome Tonight (clicks at 0:40 and 0:59 - unconfirmed) 6, Murder - "Clicks" at 0:35, 1:08, 1:29, 1:43, 2:03, 2:31, 2:43, 2:50, 3:00, 3:19, 3:26 7, Thieves like us (instrumental) (click at 1:03 - unconfirmed) CDtext track info says "ThEIves Like Us" 8, Confusion (instrumental) CDtext: "Artist" information is missingCDtext: "Title" information is missing

Low-Life (1985) Digipak spine says "1983"

1. Love Vigilantes 4:19
2. The Perfect Kiss 4:50
3. This Time of Night 4:45
4. Sunrise 6:01 - Sudden volume drop in right channel at 2:36
5. Elegia 4:55
6. Sooner Than You Think 5:11
7. Sub-culture 4:58
8. Face Up 5:06 Overall: **the album tracks "sound like they've been mastered from the Centredate cd's and not the masters themselves" "this release is a massive disappointment. I even would advise anyone not to buy it" "Sleeve notes full of errors" "Did anyone proof read these?"**Low-Life – bonus disc
9. The Perfect Kiss 8:50 - Dubious sound quality, clicks, 'crackles', and pops at 0:07, 0:11, 0:16, 0:20, 0:23, 0:25, 0:30, 0:42, 0:50, 0:54, 1:08, 1:19, 1:23, 1:28, 1:32, 1:38, 1:56, 2:12, 2:32, 3:01, 3:03, 3:10, 3:11, 3:15, 3:24, 3:29, 3:40, 3:54, 3:57, 4:52, 4:59, 5:04, 5:06, 5:11, 5:13, 5:15, 5:18, 5:20, 5:27, 5:41, 6:08, 6:09, 6:37, 6:42, 6:44, 6:47, 6:51, 6:56, 7:12, 7:47, 7:49, 8:10, 8:15, 8:20, 8:36, and 8:38.
10. Subculture 7:27 - Glitches "run the whole way through it", namely at: 0:02, 0:04, 0:07, 0:08, 0:23, 0:48, 0:56, 1:24, 1:32, 1:58, 2:09, 2:47, 2:50, 3:13, 3:52, 3:55, 3:57, 3:59, 4:30, 4:35, 4:48, 4:55, 4:57, 5:04, 5:18, 5:46, 5:49, 6:38, and 6:52.
11. Shellshock - Not what it says: plays the Substance edit , not the full 12" version. Sounds "shitty, more bass but also no presence"
12. Shame Of The Nation
13. Elegia 17:30
14. Let’s Go - "Clicks" at 1:24 and 3:23*(at 1:31 it sounds like the tape slowed suddenly - unconfirmed)*
15. Salvation Theme 2:16
16. Dub Vulture 7:56 - Has "rumble" as if it were taken from vinyl. Clicks and pops at 0:07, 0:09, 0:14 .... CDtext: "Artist" information is missingCDtext: "Title" information is missingCDtext: track titles are missing Overall, "mastering for the bonus tracks is on the loud side" and clipping may be present. "The tracks on the bonus disc sound mostly awful". "I just can't believe this release passed the quality control of band, management and label."

Brotherhood (1986) 1, Paradise 2, weirdo 3, As it is when it was 4, Broken promise 5, Way of life 6, Bizarre love triangle 7, All day long 8, Angel dust 9, Every little counts 10, State of the nation (WTF? If they were to replicate the original LP track listing, this track should never have been included on the main disc)

Brotherhood - bonus disc 1, Bizarre love triangle (shep pettibone remix) - Version info missing from CDtext entry 2, 1963 - Clicks at 0:04, 0:25, 0:28, 0:30, 0:39, 0:46, 0:55, 1:14, 1:37, 1:56, 2:03, 2:07, 2:14, 2:42, 3:07, 3:29, 3:40, 3:54, 4:25, 4:32, 4:34, 4:40, 4:55, 5:00, 5:16, and 5:25. "Stutter" at 3:36. In addition, "the track has a lot of clipping" 3, True Faith (shep pettibone remix) 4, Touched by the hand of god - Dubious sound quality, clicks, pops and digital glitches at: 0:08, 0:13, 0:15, 0:23, 0:29, 0:39, 6:53, 6:58, and 7:00. 5, Blue Monday ‘88 6, Evil dust - "sounds like it was recorded directly from vinyl", "crackles or some sort of skip at the start" 7, True Dub - Not what it says: plays a 1994 Tall Paul "eschreamer dubbier" remix 8, Beach Buggy - Not what it says: plays Blue Monday 1988 (dub version) CDtext title information says "Disc 8 supplementary material"

Technique (1989) 1, Fine Time 2, All the way 3, love less (click at 0:04 - unconfirmed) 4, Round and round 5, Guilty partner 6, Run 7, Mr disco 8, vanishing point 9, Dream attack "Sleeve notes full of errors" "Did anyone proof read these?"

Technique - bonus disc 1, Don’t do it - Clicks and pops at 0:08, 0:18, 0:35, 0:40, 1:00, 2:25, 2:27, 3:01, 3:05, 3:07, 3:32, 4:12, 4:17, and 4:19. ( a skip near the beginning of the track - unconfirmed) 2, Fine line - A myriad of crackles and "jumps" 3, Round and round - CDtext track info says "Round round". Dubious sound quality, clicks, pops and digital glitches. "4 pops/irregular static within the first 20 seconds". Problems at 0:05, 0:07, 0:10, 0:16, 0:28, 0:32, 0:36, 0:41, 0:48, 0:52, 0:54, 0:56, 0:59, 1:05, 1:30, 1:39, 2:28, 2:30, 2:32, 2:41, 2:43, 2:52, 3:03, 3:15, 4:19, 5:18, 5:34, 6:32, and 6:34. 4, Best and marsh CDtext track info says "Best marsh"(dubious sound quality - unconfirmed) 5, Run 2 - Plays the extended version (not listed as such). Sound quality suggests it was "mastered" from vinyl. Clicks and pops at: 0:03, 0:10, 0:17, 0:24, 0:38, 0:41, 0:45, 0:50, 1:02, 1:13, 1:40, 2:02, 2:39, 3:10, 3:58, 4:05, 4:12, 4:15, 4:29, 4:42, 4:56, and 5:10. 6, MTO - Plays the "minus mix" (not listed as such) 7, Fine time (silk mix) (dubious sound quality - unconfirmed) 8, Vanishing point (instrumental) (dubious sound quality - unconfirmed) 9, world in motion (carabinieri mix)- Listed as "cabinieri". Sound quality suggests it was "mastered" from vinyl CDtext title information says "Bonus disc 4". Overall, "Be aware that the mastering here is horrible. There are audible pops and snaps on some of the bonus disc music indicating it was ripped directly from vinyl and NEVER cleaned up. You can get better bootleg MP3s than this mess."

Overall comments (applying to particular tracks and/or all of the above): "sounds like an MP3 vinyl rip with a lot of compression" "I'm not paying good cash for 'remasters' that in some places sound as if they were played on a cheap turntable through a computer sound card replete with crackles and skips."

NEW! Rhino released the same albums on vinyl in July 2009. Here is a list of the new errors they have introduced:

Low-Life (1985) The front cover says "Or der" instead of "Order". Oh dear. Was Peter Saville consulted? The incorrect typeface is being used throughout.

Brotherhood (1986) The sleeve and labels list the track "State Of The Nation", although this track isn't on the actual record (and of course it shouldn't be - it never was on the original Factory album).

NEW! "Corrected" CDs were finally issued by Rhino in August 2009, although only in some countries. Apparently, some but not all of the errors above were fixed.

[orange]UPDATE (February 2012): Apparently, the faulty discs were never recalled, which means that major stockists still carry old (faulty) stock, years later. However, corrected discs do exist, and even though they look identical to the faulty ones, there are ways to spot them: [/orange]

Movement (1981): Matrix no. on current disc 1: 256469369-4/1 V01 DAY*(same as 1st edition? possibly a version with drop-out in "The Him" still remaining? unconfirmed)* Matrix no. on corrected disc 2: 256469369-4/2.2 V02 LHB

Power, Corruption and Lies (1983): Matrix no. on corrected disc 1: 256469369-8/1.2 V01 IAV Matrix no. on corrected disc 2: 256469369-8/2.2 V02 MVP (possibly a version with errors still remaining? unconfirmed) Matrix no. on corrected disc 2: 256469369-8/2.3 V02 MVP 'on my replacement copy from Rhino, there is a new glitch/click audible at 1:41 in "The Beach."' (unconfirmed whether this refers to matrix 2.2 or 2.3)

Low-Life (1985): Matrix no. on corrected disc 1: 256469730-0/1.2 V02 OSF Matrix no. on corrected disc 2: 256469730-0/2.3 V02 IPZ Reported remaining errors: "One physical error is that the labels on the Low-life CDs are swapped." (unconfirmed whether all copies are like this or if it is a one-off) Edit: it seems to be a one-off

Brotherhood (1986): Matrix no. on current disc 1: 256469369-9/1 V01 NPX (same as 1st edition) Matrix no. on corrected disc 2: 256469369-9/2.3 V02 BTA

Technique (1989): Matrix no. on corrected disc 1: 256469369-7/1.2 V02 OUX Matrix no. on corrected disc 2: 256469369-7/2.3 V02 KWL*(possibly a version with errors still remaining? unconfirmed)* Matrix no. on corrected disc 2: 256469369-7/2.4 V02 CKY

All of the above: The corrected versions include two booklets. The second one, entitled "New Order Collector's editions - the Factory years", has track listings and recording details for all five albums (10 discs).

No slipcase included with the corrected versions - they are shinkwrapped and the sticker with barcode etc. is on the outside of the shrinkwrap. Beware - there are reports of faulty copies circulating with the extra booklet and no slipcase - this means that the only way to be 100% sure that you are getting corrected discs is to look at the matrix numbers!

Thanks to everybody who's reported errors - hopefully something constructive can come out of this. Edit: yes it did!

indiearchivist wrote: Movement (1981):

1. Dreams Never End
2. Truth
3. Senses (first beats missing - unconfirmed)

There's nothing wrong with Senses - it's always had the sudden start - it's the Peel Session that has a slightly different opening...

djdust wrote: There's nothing wrong with Senses - it's always had the sudden start - it's the Peel Session that has a slightly different opening...

Isn't that Truth you are thinking of? The "Senses" error was introduced with the Factory CD in the late eighties. The original LP has the full song.

Still awaiting confirmation whether the new release has the full song or not... EDIT: Pash (below) has confirmed that the intro has been restored.

Vocal bleed? Oh dear.

You are aware these are reMASTERS not reMIXES?

Any channel bleed you suddenly here is because it was always there and it's just become more audible now.

Unless of course you believe they fired up the original 2" 24track tape with all the original fx and other outboard and made a new mix that's EXACTLY like the one they did 25 years ago, apart from a little channel crosstalk.

"Thieves Like Us" was OK on "Substance". On 1994's "best of", it had this particular glitch introduced.

Don't think anybody expected them to mix everything again. To go back to the stereo mixdown master (or at least the best copy thereof, if the master is gone) should be adequate.

indiearchivist wrote:

djdust wrote: There's nothing wrong with Senses - it's always had the sudden start - it's the Peel Session that has a slightly different opening...

Isn't that Truth you are thinking of? The "Senses" error was introduced with the Factory CD in the late eighties. The original LP has the full song.

Still awaiting confirmation whether the new release has the full song or not...

Speaking of the Peel Sessions CD (SFPS 039), from Castle Communications Pic (the one with 'Truth' etc.), I noticed, that all tracks are full, but they do start on -00:00, which means, if you start the CD normally, the first second is left. So if they used this version, it might be not noticed by them.

cheers,

|cv|

'Cries And Whispers' has clicks and pops on the promo disc (and is called 'Mesh'), not sure if the release is any better.

indiearchivist wrote: The "Senses" error was introduced with the Factory CD in the late eighties. The original LP has the full song.

Really? Well, I can tell you that the new CD has the same beginning as the old CD so I assume it's still a fault then...

johnny james wrote: 'Cries And Whispers' has clicks and pops on the promo disc (and is called 'Mesh'), not sure if the release is any better.

Mine sounds absolutely fine...

Mesh is fucked too. Sounds like another vinyl rip to me.

Got mine Low-life yesterday and unfortunately I cant do anything else but agree on the poor sound quality. Warner should really consider to send out new "remastered" discs. This only means that I have to listen to my other stuff to have better sound quality which is the opposite reason why I bought the CD. Please Warner - act!

indiearchivist wrote: 6, Evil dust "sounds like it was recorded directly from vinyl", "crackles or some sort of skip at the start"

was this ever on vinyl? i know it's on the vcd, i have one at home...

hibster wrote:

was this ever on vinyl? i know it's on the vcd, i have one at home...

'twas originally on a comp LP called 'Funky Alternatives'...

Old Blue wrote:

hibster wrote:

was this ever on vinyl? i know it's on the vcd, i have one at home...

'twas originally on a comp LP called 'Funky Alternatives'...

and on both of these, wasn't it?

True Faith(FAC183R)

True Faith Australian 12inch

Tracey Spivey wrote:

Old Blue wrote:

hibster wrote:

was this ever on vinyl? i know it's on the vcd, i have one at home...

'twas originally on a comp LP called 'Funky Alternatives'...

and on both of these, wasn't it?

True Faith(FAC183R)

True Faith Australian 12inch

Nope. Though it was on another compilation album who's name I can't remember (saw it on ebay going for like £1, but I already had the Funky alternatives one).

404 error wrote: Nope. Though it was on another compilation album who's name I can't remember (saw it on ebay going for like £1, but I already had the Funky alternatives one).

Yup, the Funky Alternatives tracks have been reissued ad infitum on various compilations, going by the name of (and this list isn't exhaustive):

Alternator Alternator One Exclusive Alternatives Industrial Armageddon Industrial Dance Industrial Hazard Industrial Meltdown Industrial Virus - Killing Mixes Machines & Noise (3 volumes) Technicians Of Electronica

etc

The only New Order release it's been on is the True Faith CDV (until the remasters) - it wasn't on any of the True Faith vinyl releases.

404 error wrote:

Tracey Spivey wrote:

Old Blue wrote:

hibster wrote:

was this ever on vinyl? i know it's on the vcd, i have one at home...

'twas originally on a comp LP called 'Funky Alternatives'...

and on both of these, wasn't it?

True Faith(FAC183R)

True Faith Australian 12inch

Nope. Though it was on another compilation album who's name I can't remember (saw it on ebay going for like £1, but I already had the Funky alternatives one).

right, sorry. was thinking of the Paradise remix.

Back to Movement:

I can confirm that the intro to Senses has been restored, making the track complete when compared to the original Factory CD. One hint of silver lining in an otherwise cloudy sky...

Of all the remasters, I think the card stock used for the digipack and booklet looks the best. Pity about the vinyl pops on Cries & Whispers and Mesh though (and the reversed channels on the original Ceremony).

Didn't we also determine that Blue Monday is missing beats at the beginning?

indiearchivist wrote: Technique - bonus disc 1, Don’t do it (dubious sound quality - unconfirmed) 2, Fine line (dubious sound quality - unconfirmed)

all kinds of digital glitches in these 2. it's definitely not a "sourced from vinyl" pop or click. it's the digital glitches you hear in a poorly ripped CD that has scratches.

lamenting wrote:

indiearchivist wrote: Technique - bonus disc 1, Don’t do it (dubious sound quality - unconfirmed) 2, Fine line (dubious sound quality - unconfirmed)

all kinds of digital glitches in these 2. it's definitely not a "sourced from vinyl" pop or click. it's the digital glitches you hear in a poorly ripped CD that has scratches.

maybe they ripped them CDr made from mp3s got off of Soulseek from a mp3 made from a fan.

0_o wrote:

lamenting wrote:

indiearchivist wrote: Technique - bonus disc 1, Don’t do it (dubious sound quality - unconfirmed) 2, Fine line (dubious sound quality - unconfirmed)

all kinds of digital glitches in these 2. it's definitely not a "sourced from vinyl" pop or click. it's the digital glitches you hear in a poorly ripped CD that has scratches.

maybe they ripped them CDr made from mp3s got off of Soulseek from a mp3 made from a fan.

yeah i highly doubt that.

indiearchivist wrote:

6, Murder

There are clicks in Murder at:

1:29 1:43 2:43 2:50 3:00 3:19 3:26

Everything else on PCL is flawless so far.

Not having heard these, I wonder WTF is with the clicks?

Are we talking about digital overload clipping? Data glitches? Artifacts from the re-recording process? Or are they just clicks on the master tapes? Tapes do degrade, but loss of high frequencies and the dreaded "print-through" [1] are far more likely results of long term storage. New Order were, however, gadget obsessives, so I'd expect their masters would have been digital from quite early on.

[1] Print-through:It's that thing you get with old cassettes where you hear a sort of "ghost" of a song just before the actual song starts. The magetism from the bit of tape with the tune on it, "Prints through" to the blank tape which is lying against it on the next layer out on the spool. It's actually WORSE on professional recording formats because of the much higher magetic flux densities which "proper" tape uses....while it may take an expensive tape head to force music onto it in real time, the large trace it leaves behind prints through like a piss stain on light clothes over a few years.

(happens less with multitracks BTW, because 2" tape is usually backed, or is much thicker to give it structural stability, which reduces the effect greatly (magnetic fields vary as an inverse square, like gravity....so if the backing is 3 times as thick as normal 1/4" 2-track tape would be, making the distance 4 times as far between layers (1xthickness of ordinary tape backing+3xthicknesses of extra), the magetic field would be only 1/16th as great.Backing's not usually quite THAT thick, but the numbers worked better for an example. Mind you, I've seen 2" archive tapes in the beeb that looked like conveyor belts.

But Doc, even if there were glitches due to magnetic tape rubbing off on itself, you would think that Warner would fix those through a digital program before transfering to cd. A glitch like that should read on a graph quite easily and should be pretty easy to fix... They can over compress for loudness, but can't fix a small glitch? No excuse to Warner on that, no matter the reason, its just due to sloppy handling of the remasters...

EdelBrock wrote: But Doc, even if there were glitches due to magnetic tape rubbing off on itself, you would think that Warner would fix those through a digital program before transfering to cd. A glitch like that should read on a graph quite easily and should be pretty easy to fix... They can over compress for loudness, but can't fix a small glitch? No excuse to Warner on that, no matter the reason, its just due to sloppy handling of the remasters...

Clicks are, as I said, not TOO likely to come from the tape, dropouts yes, clicks, no. They do happen but the nature of the medium doesn't lend itself to clickyness as a mode of failure.

You can bodge a repair on any glitch or click in seconds with any digital editor (or a razorblade, an edit block and 25 years in the BBC)....but doing a job that will pass intensive listening on headphones.....that takes talent and real effort, I should know, I'm complete wank at it (I've spent hours, even days, battling clicks on drum attacks or on bass tracks that no other fucker can hear....there's a couple of howlers on both my C2 entries).

Aries wrote: Didn't we also determine that Blue Monday is missing beats at the beginning?

No - Blue Monday is complete.

Can this thread be stickied?

It seems more constructive than the endless bleating about protesting at Warners etc. It may even lead to the discs being fixed if the specific errors are pointed out in detail.

Just wanted to add, i think it was mentioned that Murder had a few errors too. There is a crackle at 2:03 but i think that's on the original. Anyone else spotted anything? Hey i think it might be ok!! Bloody hell!

johnny james wrote: Can this thread be stickied?

It seems more constructive than the endless bleating about protesting at Warners etc. It may even lead to the discs being fixed if the specific errors are pointed out in detail.

I pointed out on page 1 all the errors in Murder:

1:29 1:43 2:43 2:50 3:00 3:19 3:26