Joy Division and New Order are not the same band in my opinion, mainly after OPower Corruption & Lies. Remember New Dawn Fades: "a change of speed, a change of style, a change of scene with no regrets". I would say New Order is a development of Joy Division sound.
I would say that Joy Division would go farther then New Order did if Ian hadn't died. How a band with only three years of existence and two albums can be so influential to groups like Cure, Interpol, Nine Inch Nails, U2 is something awesome?
Joy Division was more consistent and perfect than New Order, though I think New Order songs are much more happier 
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Hooky doing Unknown Pleasures Live
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Zachery Starkey wrote:
Darkman wrote:
Zachery Starkey wrote:
Darkman wrote:
New Order wrote Joy Division songs. Ian just wrote the lyrics.
That is not completely true. Ian spotted all the music during rehearsals. Ian did a lot more then just write the lyrics! If it wasn't for Ian and his ear for the music while they were jamming during rehearsals, a lot of the music, that was later composed into those songs, would of been played once and then lost forever. Bernard composed the songs, once Ian dictated what he liked; Ian was the eyes, ears, and voice of that band. Once he passed, their distinctive sound was lost forever.
Ian had ideas for arrangements of songs, which is not the same as actually composing songs. Are you a musician, by chance? Have you ever written a song?
The music of Joy Division was written by Sumner, Hook, and Morris. The musical idea for a song would come from Hooky or Sumner, Sumner would arrange the music into an actual song, and then Ian would sing his lyrics over it, adding the vocal melody. Yes, sometimes he spotted riffs during jam sessions, this does not make him the eyes and ear of the band. He had a distintive voice and wrote amazing lyrics, but the actual music was composed by the members of New Order. Ian was a non musical member of the band, for the most part.
And no, once Ian killed himself, the bands distinctive sound was not lost, it evolved into New Order. If Ian hadn't died, Joy Division would have probably ended up sounding like New Order, with Ians voice instead of Bernards.
"Ian used to spot all the riffs", remembers Peter Hook, "we'd jam, he'd stop us and say, that was good, play it again. He spotted "Insight, "She's Lost Control", all of them. It was really weird, if it hadn't been for him and his ear, we might have played them once and never played them again. You didn't even know you'd played it, half the time. You didn't notice what you're doing when you’re jamming. It's unconscious, but he was conscious". "Ian never wrote any music, but he a great orchestrator", says Bernard Sumner, "he gave us direction. He was very passionate in those moments".
Straight from Hooky, and Bernard. Like I said, he gave them direction and dictated what he liked! I'm not down-playing what the other members did, but Ian did a lot more then just write and sing the lyrics; as you can see from the above interview. That was my point, for what one of the other members said "Ian just wrote the lyrics" and that is simplely not true! Also, I don't think, if Ian would of lived, that Joy Division would of ever sounded anything like "Blue Monday"!. I think New Order's 1st album, "Movement" was closer to the JD sound. I don't agree with you at all, when you said that "Joy Division would have probably ended up sounding like New Order, with Ians voice instead of Bernards". I do agree that the songs were composed by the band, like I said above, but mainly by Barnard and of coruse Ian gave his 2 cents! And of coruse there were songs that Ian had very little imput on, one that comes to mind is "Candidate". "Candidate" was written while Ian was going to the bathroom; written during the "Unknown Pleasures" sessions. Once hearing it, returning from the bathroom, he wrote the lyrics. But has a whole Ian played a huge part in the shaping of those songs.............
Yes, I basically said as much. Ian spotted riffs and such, the actual music was written by the other three. Arranging and composing are not the same thing.
The members of New Order themselves have said that even if Ian had lived, they would have gone in a more electronic direction. The second side of Closer also points to this.
It's matter of opinion.
I think New Order were vastly superior to Joy Division. Matter of fact, I find some of Joy Divisions songs to be....boring. Yes. What a poor fan I am.
Its just a matter of taste. To me, Joy Division and New Order are the same band. They just got better as they went along. I really love 8 or 9 Joy Division songs. I like almost everything New Order put out.
That is what these forums are all about; having your own view. In my own opinion, I think Joy Division were vastly superior to New Order! I don't see how Joy Division and New Order can even be considered the same band. Joy Division had a deep and dark sound, and New Order played electronic dance music! New Order after like 1982 or 1983, just went down a path, I wouldn't follow. Songs like "True Faith", "Round&Round", "Mr. Disco" "Blue Monday" and "Bizzare Love Triangle", to me, confirm how diffrent both bands were. New Order just went down a diffrent path; I don't think the music evolved; post-punk to dance music is not a natural progression. I think New Order wanted to put the past behind them, and the pain, and they embraced a new sound. In my mind, Ian would of never went down that path, eveything he wrote was tainted with darkness, and dance songs are anything but. New Order is not deep enough for me! And even though the members of New Order themselves have said that even if Ian had lived, they would have gone in a more electronic direction; I think it would of been more like "In A Lonely Place" or "Decades", it would of been deep and very dark; not electronic dance music. I mean, could you imagine Ian going for dance music, I think not! The lyrics Ian would of wrote, would not of been light-hearted!
I'm only guessing, but I imagine one thing Mr Curtis would not have done was write "would of" or "could of". Again, this is guesswork, but that's because he wasn't an illiterate fucking cunt.
It's "would have" or "would've", for fuck's fucking sake. Perhaps Hooky should tour "Basic English for Septic Cretins" instead?
Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote: I'm only guessing, but I imagine one thing Mr Curtis would not have done was write "would of" or "could of". Again, this is guesswork, but that's because he wasn't an illiterate fucking cunt.
It's "would have" or "would've", for fuck's fucking sake. Perhaps Hooky should tour "Basic English for Septic Cretins" instead?
Well your a sorry fuck, aren't you. The spelling police are out in full bloom, aren't they Claycunt. So since you don't like my opinion, you want to point out a few miss spelled words...Lmfao. I would be the first one to admit, I can't spell worth a shit; thanks O.K. there are worst qualities one could have in life! Like running around and acting like a little fucking bitch over some miss-spelled words; pull your fucking knickers up sweatheart!
Barney and company put out better material as New Order. Theres no need to wallow in misery, or try to inflict it into every song you write. All of them evolved within New Order, and gave us the best damn pop music of their time. Like you all said, it's a matter of opinion but it's a bit childish to be "butthurt" on the internet because of opinions.
We can`t compare New Order to Joy Division cause they are totally different bands with different styles of music. It's a question of taste indeed.
Darkman wrote:
Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote: I'm only guessing, but I imagine one thing Mr Curtis would not have done was write "would of" or "could of". Again, this is guesswork, but that's because he wasn't an illiterate fucking cunt.
It's "would have" or "would've", for fuck's fucking sake. Perhaps Hooky should tour "Basic English for Septic Cretins" instead?
Well your a sorry fuck, aren't you. The spelling police are out in full bloom, aren't they Claycunt. So since you don't like my opinion, you want to point out a few miss spelled words...Lmfao. I would be the first one to admit, I can't spell worth a shit; thanks O.K. there are worst qualities one could have in life! Like running around and acting like a little fucking bitch over some miss-spelled words; pull your fucking knickers up sweatheart!
To Darkman: Calm down...
you need to get used to this site.If you can't handle the atmosphere (no pun intended) on this site then get the fuck out of here.
leather_girl wrote:
Darkman wrote:
Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote: I'm only guessing, but I imagine one thing Mr Curtis would not have done was write "would of" or "could of". Again, this is guesswork, but that's because he wasn't an illiterate fucking cunt.
It's "would have" or "would've", for fuck's fucking sake. Perhaps Hooky should tour "Basic English for Septic Cretins" instead?
Well your a sorry fuck, aren't you. The spelling police are out in full bloom, aren't they Claycunt. So since you don't like my opinion, you want to point out a few miss spelled words...Lmfao. I would be the first one to admit, I can't spell worth a shit; thanks O.K. there are worst qualities one could have in life! Like running around and acting like a little fucking bitch over some miss-spelled words; pull your fucking knickers up sweatheart!
To Darkman: Calm down...
Methinks the bitterness from the "Pictures" ordeal has left him a bit edgy.
michael preda wrote:
leather_girl wrote:
Darkman wrote:
Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote: I'm only guessing, but I imagine one thing Mr Curtis would not have done was write "would of" or "could of". Again, this is guesswork, but that's because he wasn't an illiterate fucking cunt.
It's "would have" or "would've", for fuck's fucking sake. Perhaps Hooky should tour "Basic English for Septic Cretins" instead?
Well your a sorry fuck, aren't you. The spelling police are out in full bloom, aren't they Claycunt. So since you don't like my opinion, you want to point out a few miss spelled words...Lmfao. I would be the first one to admit, I can't spell worth a shit; thanks O.K. there are worst qualities one could have in life! Like running around and acting like a little fucking bitch over some miss-spelled words; pull your fucking knickers up sweatheart!
To Darkman: Calm down...
Methinks the bitterness from the "Pictures" ordeal has left him a bit edgy.
Probably 
leather_girl wrote:
Darkman wrote:
Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote: I'm only guessing, but I imagine one thing Mr Curtis would not have done was write "would of" or "could of". Again, this is guesswork, but that's because he wasn't an illiterate fucking cunt.
It's "would have" or "would've", for fuck's fucking sake. Perhaps Hooky should tour "Basic English for Septic Cretins" instead?
Well your a sorry fuck, aren't you. The spelling police are out in full bloom, aren't they Claycunt. So since you don't like my opinion, you want to point out a few miss spelled words...Lmfao. I would be the first one to admit, I can't spell worth a shit; thanks O.K. there are worst qualities one could have in life! Like running around and acting like a little fucking bitch over some miss-spelled words; pull your fucking knickers up sweatheart!
To Darkman: Calm down...
Leather girl, I'm not going to just sit there and say nothing while Claycunt calls me an "an illiterate fucking cunt", just for having an opinion. Why aren't you telling Claycunt to calm down, for calling me an "an illiterate fucking cunt" over a few miss-spelled words? I need to get use to this site; it seems like I'm following right along with the atmosphere on this site. It's funny, I have heard a lot of people use the phrase "it went down-hill in true NOOL fashion once it reached these parts", like it's something to be proud of, that half the members on this site have no mannors. So why is it not O.K. for someone to defend themselves on this site, Leathercunt? If you can't handle that I'm never going to take anyone's shit, then fuck off! And 90% of me being on edge, has to do with the treatment I found on this site when I came forward with a certain JD cd. You would never find the kind of disrespect found on this site, on JDC. I wonder who is going to respond and say, "Then fucking stick to posting on JDC"?????????????I'm on pins and needles!
Darkman wrote:
leather_girl wrote:
Darkman wrote:
Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote: I'm only guessing, but I imagine one thing Mr Curtis would not have done was write "would of" or "could of". Again, this is guesswork, but that's because he wasn't an illiterate fucking cunt.
It's "would have" or "would've", for fuck's fucking sake. Perhaps Hooky should tour "Basic English for Septic Cretins" instead?
Well your a sorry fuck, aren't you. The spelling police are out in full bloom, aren't they Claycunt. So since you don't like my opinion, you want to point out a few miss spelled words...Lmfao. I would be the first one to admit, I can't spell worth a shit; thanks O.K. there are worst qualities one could have in life! Like running around and acting like a little fucking bitch over some miss-spelled words; pull your fucking knickers up sweatheart!
To Darkman: Calm down...
Leather girl, I'm not going to just sit there and say nothing while Claycunt calls me an "an illiterate fucking cunt", just for having an opinion. So with that said, I'm not that guy, so get the fuck out of my face! Why aren't you telling Claycunt to calm down, for calling me an "an illiterate fucking cunt" over a few miss-spelled words?
I've seen other posts that Clayhead Liberation Faction has posted on these boards, and his post on this thread didn't seem that unusual to me. The reply he send to you about grammar was probably his sense of humour. :computer3:
leather_girl wrote:
Darkman wrote:
leather_girl wrote:
Darkman wrote:
Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote: I'm only guessing, but I imagine one thing Mr Curtis would not have done was write "would of" or "could of". Again, this is guesswork, but that's because he wasn't an illiterate fucking cunt.
It's "would have" or "would've", for fuck's fucking sake. Perhaps Hooky should tour "Basic English for Septic Cretins" instead?
Well your a sorry fuck, aren't you. The spelling police are out in full bloom, aren't they Claycunt. So since you don't like my opinion, you want to point out a few miss spelled words...Lmfao. I would be the first one to admit, I can't spell worth a shit; thanks O.K. there are worst qualities one could have in life! Like running around and acting like a little fucking bitch over some miss-spelled words; pull your fucking knickers up sweatheart!
To Darkman: Calm down...
Leather girl, I'm not going to just sit there and say nothing while Claycunt calls me an "an illiterate fucking cunt", just for having an opinion. So with that said, I'm not that guy, so get the fuck out of my face! Why aren't you telling Claycunt to calm down, for calling me an "an illiterate fucking cunt" over a few miss-spelled words?
I've seen other posts that Clayhead Liberation Faction has posted on these boards, and his post on this thread didn't seem that unusual to me. The reply he send to you about grammar was probably his sense of humour. :computer3:
I'm not going to check someones history, everytime they talk shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!I have better things to do..........
Darkman wrote:
..calling me an "an illiterate fucking cunt" over a few miss-spelled words?
Poetry
Darkman wrote:
leather_girl wrote:
Darkman wrote:
Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote: I'm only guessing, but I imagine one thing Mr Curtis would not have done was write "would of" or "could of". Again, this is guesswork, but that's because he wasn't an illiterate fucking cunt.
It's "would have" or "would've", for fuck's fucking sake. Perhaps Hooky should tour "Basic English for Septic Cretins" instead?
BLUB BLUB BLUB WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH WAAAAAAAAAAAHH!
To Darkman: Calm down...
BLUB BLUB BLUB WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
corrected 
JDC dont have the lovely sort we have here. You'll get used to it, or just whine it really doesn't affect us any.
michael preda wrote: JDC dont have the lovely sort we have here. You'll get used to it, or just whine it really doesn't affect us any.
Lmfao........thanks, your to kind!
Darkman wrote:
michael preda wrote: JDC dont have the lovely sort we have here. You'll get used to it, or just whine it really doesn't affect us any.
Lmfao........thanks, your to kind!
It's a gift.
michael preda wrote:
Darkman wrote:
michael preda wrote: JDC dont have the lovely sort we have here. You'll get used to it, or just whine it really doesn't affect us any.
Lmfao........thanks, your to kind!
It's a gift.
I'll take it!
Darkman wrote:
michael preda wrote:
Darkman wrote:
michael preda wrote: JDC dont have the lovely sort we have here. You'll get used to it, or just whine it really doesn't affect us any.
Lmfao........thanks, your to kind!
It's a gift.
I'll take it!
Glad you're obliging.
Darkman wrote:
Zachery Starkey wrote:
Darkman wrote:
Zachery Starkey wrote:
Darkman wrote:
New Order wrote Joy Division songs. Ian just wrote the lyrics.
That is not completely true. Ian spotted all the music during rehearsals. Ian did a lot more then just write the lyrics! If it wasn't for Ian and his ear for the music while they were jamming during rehearsals, a lot of the music, that was later composed into those songs, would of been played once and then lost forever. Bernard composed the songs, once Ian dictated what he liked; Ian was the eyes, ears, and voice of that band. Once he passed, their distinctive sound was lost forever.
Ian had ideas for arrangements of songs, which is not the same as actually composing songs. Are you a musician, by chance? Have you ever written a song?
The music of Joy Division was written by Sumner, Hook, and Morris. The musical idea for a song would come from Hooky or Sumner, Sumner would arrange the music into an actual song, and then Ian would sing his lyrics over it, adding the vocal melody. Yes, sometimes he spotted riffs during jam sessions, this does not make him the eyes and ear of the band. He had a distintive voice and wrote amazing lyrics, but the actual music was composed by the members of New Order. Ian was a non musical member of the band, for the most part.
And no, once Ian killed himself, the bands distinctive sound was not lost, it evolved into New Order. If Ian hadn't died, Joy Division would have probably ended up sounding like New Order, with Ians voice instead of Bernards.
"Ian used to spot all the riffs", remembers Peter Hook, "we'd jam, he'd stop us and say, that was good, play it again. He spotted "Insight, "She's Lost Control", all of them. It was really weird, if it hadn't been for him and his ear, we might have played them once and never played them again. You didn't even know you'd played it, half the time. You didn't notice what you're doing when you’re jamming. It's unconscious, but he was conscious". "Ian never wrote any music, but he a great orchestrator", says Bernard Sumner, "he gave us direction. He was very passionate in those moments".
Straight from Hooky, and Bernard. Like I said, he gave them direction and dictated what he liked! I'm not down-playing what the other members did, but Ian did a lot more then just write and sing the lyrics; as you can see from the above interview. That was my point, for what one of the other members said "Ian just wrote the lyrics" and that is simplely not true! Also, I don't think, if Ian would of lived, that Joy Division would of ever sounded anything like "Blue Monday"!. I think New Order's 1st album, "Movement" was closer to the JD sound. I don't agree with you at all, when you said that "Joy Division would have probably ended up sounding like New Order, with Ians voice instead of Bernards". I do agree that the songs were composed by the band, like I said above, but mainly by Barnard and of coruse Ian gave his 2 cents! And of coruse there were songs that Ian had very little imput on, one that comes to mind is "Candidate". "Candidate" was written while Ian was going to the bathroom; written during the "Unknown Pleasures" sessions. Once hearing it, returning from the bathroom, he wrote the lyrics. But has a whole Ian played a huge part in the shaping of those songs.............
Yes, I basically said as much. Ian spotted riffs and such, the actual music was written by the other three. Arranging and composing are not the same thing.
The members of New Order themselves have said that even if Ian had lived, they would have gone in a more electronic direction. The second side of Closer also points to this.
It's matter of opinion.
I think New Order were vastly superior to Joy Division. Matter of fact, I find some of Joy Divisions songs to be....boring. Yes. What a poor fan I am.
Its just a matter of taste. To me, Joy Division and New Order are the same band. They just got better as they went along. I really love 8 or 9 Joy Division songs. I like almost everything New Order put out.
That is what these forums are all about; having your own view. In my own opinion, I think Joy Division were vastly superior to New Order! I don't see how Joy Division and New Order can even be considered the same band. Joy Division had a deep and dark sound, and New Order played electronic dance music! New Order after like 1982 or 1983, just went down a path, I wouldn't follow. Songs like "True Faith", "Round&Round", "Mr. Disco" "Blue Monday" and "Bizzare Love Triangle", to me, confirm how diffrent both bands were. New Order just went down a diffrent path; I don't think the music evolved; post-punk to dance music is not a natural progression. I think New Order wanted to put the past behind them, and the pain, and they embraced a new sound. In my mind, Ian would of never went down that path, eveything he wrote was tainted with darkness, and dance songs are anything but. New Order is not deep enough for me! And even though the members of New Order themselves have said that even if Ian had lived, they would have gone in a more electronic direction; I think it would of been more like "In A Lonely Place" or "Decades", it would of been deep and very dark; not electronic dance music. I mean, could you imagine Ian going for dance music, I think not! The lyrics Ian would of wrote, would not of been light-hearted!
Well, I find Joy Division's "darkness" to be a little....one dimensional, shall we say, and tiring after a while. Joy Division made songs in shades of Grey and Black, New Order made songs for the whole rainbow. There are many emotions in life, not just darkness. I think it takes depth and maturity to make happy and sad songs (and art in general).
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. As a life long New Order/Joy Division fan, I come to these forums looking for intelligent discussions on all aspects of my favorite band. Sometimes I agree with people, sometimes not, but I believe it is a mark of civility, intelligence, and maturity to be happy to disagree and still have a good discussion.
