75 replies · 3,677 views
59 votes · voting closed
We have enough threads on the gigs and controversy so I thought I'd do a poll of 2 widely criticised NO albums.
2 questions...
Are they underrated masterpieces which people may learn to love over time, or are they criminally average New Order albums when we expect much more?
Which is the lesser of the two "evils" and why?
Was Barney right to throw a wobbler over Q's WFTSC review, or were they [for a change] spot on??
There's only one way to find out...
Republic has the better cover art.
Don't think either is criminally underrated, and I have not learned to love Republic over time. Regret is a great song, the rest gets very bland and boring, especially in the middle. Some talk about the missing bass, but the beats are boring also. A bland house-lite album.
WFTSC is unfairly put down for it's attempt at diversity, the band at least tries many ideas and seems to be having fun. Maybe with all the better songs on one album (instead of split up with the aborted second album) it would have been stronger.
I think when you stack it up that Republic has Regret, Ruined In A Day, Everyone Everywhere, Special and yes.... World [Price Of Love]... and WFTSC has nothing as good as most of those tracks, it makes Republic the better album for me.
There's no "Regret" on WFTSC for sure, and no "Ruined In A Day" which I think is one of the most under-rated New Order singles of all time.
It's fair to say WFTSC has its moments though. Notably Krafty, Hey What You Doing, Guilt, Morning Night & Day and Turn. And I'm afraid I'm also in the exclusive I Told You So fanclub ***ducks flying copies of jetstream 12" singles***
My memories of Republic are more fond than Waiting For The Sirens' Call. I guess it's because it was longer ago when the original New Order still were together and partly because the fantastic Regret single. But at the time, I really liked Special and the other (remixes of the) singles too.
Waiting For The Sirens' Call has also about 4 great tracks, just like Republic. What I REALLY like about WFTSC is Krafty and the title song.
Ofcourse the artwork of Republic is much more attractive.
Republic for me. Miles better than WFTSC.
Maybe the tracks aren't mixed to everyone's tastes (Hooky too far down etc), but the songs themselves are much better. Better art for the album/singles and better remixes too.
I'd like to love WFTSC, but it's not something I play often if at all.
everyoneverywhere wrote: I think when you stack it up that Republic has Regret, Ruined In A Day, Everyone Everywhere, Special and yes.... World [Price Of Love]... and WFTSC has nothing as good as most of those tracks, it makes Republic the better album for me.
Ah the diversity of New Order fans. The first half of WFTSC + Turn are much better than Ruined in a Day and comparable to many of the other tracks there, to my ears.
I've got to say Republic... I only really like the title track from WFTSC, Krafty & Turn... The rest of it is I'm afraid to say pretty average (for New Order at least)... Republic has Regret, Ruined In A Day, Everyone Everywhere, Special & Avalanche... Oh and the artwork is better...
You forgot to add MOVEMENT! :)
Although I love Movement, but it's generally considered a weak album.
I voted Republic, although I don't remember when I listened to it last time. Its needs remastering badly!!! It really suffers from that flat early 90s CD sound.
I just noticed both records cover art features the colour orange. If that means anything... a warning?
The oval orange O at the right lower side of both covers... a bad omen for the band? Both covers foreshadow a breakup and a negative result 
everyoneverywhere wrote:
Do tracks like Crystal or Regret swing either of them to your favour?
Crystal would have to swing pretty far...
Waiting for the Sirens' Call would be my choice.
When Regret was released, it promised much more than Republic delivered. Nothing else on the album comes close. 10 out of 10.
World is alright but sounds like an Other Two track that Barney and Hooky didn't really get behind. 6 out of 10.
Ruined in a Day is pretty good but not single material. I do appreciate the mood of it. 7 out of 10.
Spooky starts promisingly enough but the chorus is lame. 4 out of 10.
Everyone Everywhere (no offence) is just limp. I was shocked that they chose that track to perform live on the '93 tour. Just dreadful. 3 out of 10.
Young Offender is the one that got away. This really could have been spiced up to make a better single release than either Ruined... or Spooky. As it is, it's one of the strongest album tracks to these ears. 7 out of 10.
At the time of release, Liar took a lot of flack for the pronounced backing vocals. It doesn't sound nearly as jarring today as Bernard's taste for them has been shown on many a track since. Nice chorus and I think it's only crime is that it sounds more suited to an Electronic album than New Order. 7 out of 10.
Chemical is easily the most dated track. I liked the power drill sounds but most of the music was ravebythenumbers. 2 out of 10.
Times Change goes back to Electronic territory yet I hear the influences of Hooky, Steve and Gillian in the instrumental flourishes. Unfortunately, the EMF drumbeat and wacky lyrics ruin the mood. 5 out of 10.
Special aims to be the poignant highlight of the album and succeeds. If the music sounded as inspired as it's Technique counterpart (Vanishing Point), I'd be a little more impressed. 8 out of 10.
Avalanche is pretty much perfect. But it exposes the flaw in Republic. It sounds like pure inspiration when many other tracks sound like New Order stopped searching for it. 9 out of 10.
While I obviously have my issues with Republic, you could argue that it hangs together better as an LP than Waiting For the Sirens' Call. I just think WFTSC has more quality tracks.
Hey Joe starts the album on a strange tone but really wouldn't fit anywhere else in the tracklisting. 6 out of 10.
Hey Now What You Doing is a bit of a blueprint for the direction that Bad Lieutenant took. unfortunately that album had few tracks as good as this. 8 out of 10.
Waiting For the Sirens' Call is epic. While the lyrics are more detached than Regret, the gorgeous backing track makes it it's equal in my eyes. Hooky's Swansong? 10 out of 10.
Krafty is on the light side but has all the elements you want in a New Order single. It was reassuring for me to hear it after they strayed so far from this sound with most of Get Ready. 8 out of 10.
I Told You So seems to be one of the (several) like it or hate it moments on the album for people. I had an easier time getting over the Ace of Base kickdrum than I did the honey/money couplet in Crystal so I'm in the like it camp. It may not be as "experimental" as Bernard championed it as, but the changes is goes through are very appealing to me. 7 out of 10.
Morning Night and Day is the weakest track to me. The lyrics are a bit awkward and the bassline favours Material Girl. Not a great combo. Should have saved it for Bad Lieutenant. 3 out of 10.
Dracula's Castle is the missed opportunity on the album to me. The backing track is a fantastic return to Technique era sounds and arrangements but Vlad spoils the party. I maintain that if Dracula wasn't mentioned in either the title or the lyrics, this would be hailed as one of their late era highlights. That just sucks. See what I did there? 8 out of 10 anyway.
Jetstream is not the failure that it's made out to be. If it wasn't released as a single - to capitalize on it's catchy, annoying qualities - that would be a problem. Yes, it's a lame album track. But as a single, it was a worthy attempt to break back into the charts. 5 out of 10.
Guilt is a Useless Emotion probably should have been the second single. It's synthy and propulsive and sports some saucy lyrics from the Barnster. Full disclosure: I love If You've Got Love from Electronic as well. This is cut from similar cloth. 8 out of 10.
Turn appears just as the album was starting to get a little too lighthearted. The segue from the synths and sass of the previous track knock you back to reality with acoustic guitars and a somber tone. While the lyrics are awkward at times, I interpret that as the times when strong emotions can make you inarticulate. 9 out of 10.
Working Overtime could have worked best in the outdated guise of the Hidden Track. Not listed on the sleeve, or in the booklet but hey! New Order are working overtime with a Iggy style romp! Unexpected but fun! 6 out of 10 'cause it sounds like they were enjoying themselves.
Republic average: 6.18
Waiting For the Sirens' Call average: 7.09
At the time Republic was released I was really disappointed. After Technique, the long delay and the fine single Regret I was expecting so much. Over time grown to like it more but the 1st side is so much better than the 2nd. No bass guitar! So maybe the upcoming gigs will paly the whole of Republic b side.
WFTSC I really likeed on its release, it was another New Order album, more gigs to go to my favourite band was still going... Some great track again on WFTSC with the 1st side again beign stronger. Turn is a great track on the b side though. So WFTSC has a fonder place in my heart and therefore gets the vote....
Andy wrote:
Avalanche is pretty much perfect. But it exposes the flaw in Republic. It sounds like pure inspiration when many other tracks sound like New Order stopped searching for it. 9 out of 10.
Indeed.Spot on.
Andy wrote:
everyoneverywhere wrote:
Do tracks like Crystal or Regret swing either of them to your favour?
Crystal would have to swing pretty far...
Waiting for the Sirens' Call would be my choice.
When Regret was released, it promised much more than Republic delivered. Nothing else on the album comes close. 10 out of 10.
World is alright but sounds like an Other Two track that Barney and Hooky didn't really get behind. 6 out of 10.
Ruined in a Day is pretty good but not single material. I do appreciate the mood of it. 7 out of 10.
Spooky starts promisingly enough but the chorus is lame. 4 out of 10.
Everyone Everywhere (no offence) is just limp. I was shocked that they chose that track to perform live on the '93 tour. Just dreadful. 3 out of 10.
Young Offender is the one that got away. This really could have been spiced up to make a better single release than either Ruined... or Spooky. As it is, it's one of the strongest album tracks to these ears. 7 out of 10.
At the time of release, Liar took a lot of flack for the pronounced backing vocals. It doesn't sound nearly as jarring today as Bernard's taste for them has been shown on many a track since. Nice chorus and I think it's only crime is that it sounds more suited to an Electronic album than New Order. 7 out of 10.
Chemical is easily the most dated track. I liked the power drill sounds but most of the music was ravebythenumbers. 2 out of 10.
Times Change goes back to Electronic territory yet I hear the influences of Hooky, Steve and Gillian in the instrumental flourishes. Unfortunately, the EMF drumbeat and wacky lyrics ruin the mood. 5 out of 10.
Special aims to be the poignant highlight of the album and succeeds. If the music sounded as inspired as it's Technique counterpart (Vanishing Point), I'd be a little more impressed. 8 out of 10.
Avalanche is pretty much perfect. But it exposes the flaw in Republic. It sounds like pure inspiration when many other tracks sound like New Order stopped searching for it. 9 out of 10.
While I obviously have my issues with Republic, you could argue that it hangs together better as an LP than Waiting For the Sirens' Call. I just think WFTSC has more quality tracks.
Hey Joe starts the album on a strange tone but really wouldn't fit anywhere else in the tracklisting. 6 out of 10.
Hey Now What You Doing is a bit of a blueprint for the direction that Bad Lieutenant took. unfortunately that album had few tracks as good as this. 8 out of 10.
Waiting For the Sirens' Call is epic. While the lyrics are more detached than Regret, the gorgeous backing track makes it it's equal in my eyes. Hooky's Swansong? 10 out of 10.
Krafty is on the light side but has all the elements you want in a New Order single. It was reassuring for me to hear it after they strayed so far from this sound with most of Get Ready. 8 out of 10.
I Told You So seems to be one of the (several) like it or hate it moments on the album for people. I had an easier time getting over the Ace of Base kickdrum than I did the honey/money couplet in Crystal so I'm in the like it camp. It may not be as "experimental" as Bernard championed it as, but the changes is goes through are very appealing to me. 7 out of 10.
Morning Night and Day is the weakest track to me. The lyrics are a bit awkward and the bassline favours Material Girl. Not a great combo. Should have saved it for Bad Lieutenant. 3 out of 10.
Dracula's Castle is the missed opportunity on the album to me. The backing track is a fantastic return to Technique era sounds and arrangements but Vlad spoils the party. I maintain that if Dracula wasn't mentioned in either the title or the lyrics, this would be hailed as one of their late era highlights. That just sucks. See what I did there? 8 out of 10 anyway.
Jetstream is not the failure that it's made out to be. If it wasn't released as a single - to capitalize on it's catchy, annoying qualities - that would be a problem. Yes, it's a lame album track. But as a single, it was a worthy attempt to break back into the charts. 5 out of 10.
Guilt is a Useless Emotion probably should have been the second single. It's synthy and propulsive and sports some saucy lyrics from the Barnster. Full disclosure: I love If You've Got Love from Electronic as well. This is cut from similar cloth. 8 out of 10.
Turn appears just as the album was starting to get a little too lighthearted. The segue from the synths and sass of the previous track knock you back to reality with acoustic guitars and a somber tone. While the lyrics are awkward at times, I interpret that as the times when strong emotions can make you inarticulate. 9 out of 10.
Working Overtime could have worked best in the outdated guise of the Hidden Track. Not listed on the sleeve, or in the booklet but hey! New Order are working overtime with a Iggy style romp! Unexpected but fun! 6 out of 10 'cause it sounds like they were enjoying themselves.
Republic average: 6.18
Waiting For the Sirens' Call average: 7.09
Sirens.
I really didn't/dont like Republic, whereas I was simply indifferent to Sirens (I probably couldn't even attempt to guess the tracklisting if pushed).
Sirens is the lesser of two evils.
I'd save Republic from the fire before either Get Ready or WFTSC. Admirably fair-minded write-up, Andy. I'll play too:
Who’s joe 7 Hey now 5 Wftsc 10 Krafty 7 I told you so 5 Morning night and day 3 Dracula 5 Jet 4 Guilt 7 Turn 9 Working overtime 5
Regret 10 World 6 Ruined 6 Spooky 7 EE 7 Young Offender 7 Liar 7 Chemical 5 Times Change 6 Special 8 Avalanche 6
Republic actually wins more clearly than that for me because I still play the whole thing through from time to time - and for me its always worked well as an album. WFTSC has always had this big hole in the middle where tracks 5-8 should be. I don't find e.g. "I told you so" bad, I just rarely want to hear it...:\ohwell:
I purchased both 'Brotherhood' and 'Technique' on there release, loved both of them. When 'Regret' came out as the first single, I thought, this is looking good, wow!! Not so much for the 'Republic' album, for me.
If you really like the electronic side of New Order, as opposed to the combination of the rock/electronic, then I can understand 'Republic' being a favourite. To me, there's no real drums, little guitar, and not a lot of bass guitar. Would be interesting to know why the 1993 sets lists were so drab!
Regret 10/10 - One of the finest New Order singles ever. World - 10/10 - I love it. So there. Ruined - 10/10 - Underrated as fook. Love this one too. Spooky - 3/10 - What went wrong here, started out so well.. Everyone Everywhere - 10/10. Sublime. Young Offender 6/10 - It's not bad, but aged badly. Liar 5/10 - Pretty poor really and again not aged too well. Chemical 5/10 - Another mediocre that has aged badly. Times Change 7/10 - Stinks of 90sness but a passable effort Special 10/10 - Another stonker, nicely placed before finale Avalanche 9/10 - Possibly my favourite New Order instrumental.
85/110 = 77% A good if not outstanding album!
Who’s Joe 7/10 - Quite moving and different direction. Hey What You Doing 7/10 - I like it but its too guitar driven Waiting For The Sirens Call 10/10 - Beautful and moving. Krafty 8/10 - Another nice song which hits me though partly due to the period it was released. I Told You So 8/10 - I know. It's a guilty pleasure ok? Morning, Night & Day - 7/10 - Can't see why this gets such bad comments, it's up-tempo and uplifting... and you can hear it as backing music on Top Gear. Draculas Castle 5/10 - Fair play for being the most Technique-sounding but something is missing Jetstream 5/10 - Not as good as the single version and that is saying something. Guilt Is A Useless Emotion 8/10 - Could have been a 10 but loses its way for the second half. Turn 7/10 - Everyone seems to love it but I find it too Smithsy-sounding for my liking Working Overtime 1/10 - Contender for worst New Order song ever.
73/110 = 66% Average.
So of the two WFTSC is the more consistent, but Republic has more tracks I adore making it win.
This seems to have stirred up a few feelings...
Waiting For The Sirens' Call is easily better, simply because there is less two-chord/one-chord-phrase rap (with a capital 'C').
Regret and Ruined In A Day are very good songs.
Young Offender has a nice instrumental MID section.
The rest - including World (The Price Of Love), as many have already stated - doesn't live up to expectation... 
There are two monsters on Waiting For The Sirens' Call:
Morning, Night And Day, one of Bernard's best lyrics written, and Stephen Morris's drums capture the moment perfectly. 
Guilt Is A Useless Emotion (a hard one to type quickly!), classic New Order at their best too.
Now I've never bought Power, Corruption And Lies, but I can't believe it could be any better than Waiting For The Sirens' Call. There best studio album, in my humble opinion... 
Empress Touch wrote: This seems to have stirred up a few feelings...
Waiting For The Sirens' Call is easily better, simply because there is less two-chord/one-chord-phrase rap (with a capital 'C').
Regret and Ruined In A Day are very good songs.
Young Offender has a nice instrumental MID section.
The rest - including World (The Price Of Love), as many have already stated - doesn't live up to expectation...
There are two monsters on Waiting For The Sirens' Call:
Morning, Night And Day, one of Bernard's best lyrics written, and Stephen Morris's drums capture the moment perfectly.
Guilt Is A Useless Emotion (a hard one to type quickly!), classic New Order at their best too.
Now I've never bought Power, Corruption And Lies, but I can't believe it could be any better than Waiting For The Sirens' Call. There best studio album, in my humble opinion...
You got to be kidding? PCL pisses all over wtftsc. It's like going from waitrose to Lidl!!!
Empress Touch wrote: This seems to have stirred up a few feelings...
Waiting For The Sirens' Call is easily better, simply because there is less two-chord/one-chord-phrase rap (with a capital 'C').
Regret and Ruined In A Day are very good songs.
Young Offender has a nice instrumental MID section.
The rest - including World (The Price Of Love), as many have already stated - doesn't live up to expectation...
There are two monsters on Waiting For The Sirens' Call:
Morning, Nigght and Day, one of Bernard's best lyrics written, and Stephen Morris's drums capture the moment perfectly.
Guilt Is A Useless Emotion (a hard one to type quickly!), classic New Order at their best too.
Now I've never bought Power, Corruption And Lies, but I can't believe it could be any better than Waiting For The Sirens' Call. There best studio album, in my humble opinion...
Buy Power, Corruption, and Lies ASAP 
It's uneven but the band is in it's own league at that point of time.
0_o wrote:
Empress Touch wrote: This seems to have stirred up a few feelings...
Waiting For The Sirens' Call is easily better, simply because there is less two-chord/one-chord-phrase rap (with a capital 'C').
Regret and Ruined In A Day are very good songs.
Young Offender has a nice instrumental MID section.
The rest - including World (The Price Of Love), as many have already stated - doesn't live up to expectation...
There are two monsters on Waiting For The Sirens' Call:
Morning, Nigght and Day, one of Bernard's best lyrics written, and Stephen Morris's drums capture the moment perfectly.
Guilt Is A Useless Emotion (a hard one to type quickly!), classic New Order at their best too.
Now I've never bought Power, Corruption And Lies, but I can't believe it could be any better than Waiting For The Sirens' Call. There best studio album, in my humble opinion...
Buy Power, Corruption, and Lies ASAP
PCL is a rather experimental LP. I'm sure, for those who heard it back in 1983-85 it was very fresh and exciting. The quality is great (better than on "Get Ready"!). I heard it for the first time in 1994, after Republic, Technique, Low-Life and Brotherhood and I was not that impressed. Of course, Age of Consent, The Village and to some degree 586 were all superb, but the rest just didn't catch my ear enough to listen to that album over and over again for the past 17 years, unlike other albums.
The only two NO albums I don't like. However, WFTSC has Turn and Krafty, two tunes I like a lot. The best on Republic is Avalanche and has lots of the worst they've done. I also do dislike Regret, I have to admit. So yeah: WFTSC > Republic
Neither "Republic" nor "Waiting for the Sirens' Call" are underrated masterpieces (neither is "Get Ready" for that matter). I would have to say, however, that of the three post-Factory albums, WFTSC is the best in my opinion.
"Republic" is decent, but horribly produced in my opinion. The Stephen Hague production makes it sound rather dated and somewhat flimsy. Not that Hooky is my favorite member these days, but his bass could have been bolstered a bit more in the mix. While I don't dislike "Times Change," I would have preferred that it had been released as a b-side or a Barney side project of some sort.
"Get Ready" is in contrast to "Republic" a bit over-produced. It sounds like they're trying just a tad bit too hard to sound more aggressive than usual. I for one can't stand Billy Corgan - and this is coming from someone living in his home town. I would have preferred that his vocals had remained off the album. The synth programming on some of the tracks sounds a little too glossy (see "Close Range" in particular comes to mind). The programming sounds as if it was done my studio synth wizards versus having been done by the band themselves. Contrary to others though, being a Primal Scream fan, I do like "Rock The Shack."
WFTSC is for the most part a solid album. My major qualm is the artwork. I still can't believe that they actually went through with the "No" cover. When the artwork was revealed prior to its release, I seriously believed that it was joke. Unfortunately it wasn't. The lyrics on some of the tracks is likewise a bit weak. Did we really need two tracks in a row that start with the word "Hey"?!! I would have likewise preferred more cryptic track titles as opposed to ones that use words from the song. Other than that, I feel the album has a nice balanced sound. Also, in case you're wondering, "Jetstream" never particularly bothered me - don't think it's that bad of a track.
-Mike
Republic for me, a concise product from content to design. Its very much of its time in terms of what New Order were about, the relationship with Factory was in its death-throes, the band relationships were disintegrating and yet, out of arrogant defiance or pure Manc indifference, they produced this.
And, yeah, why does Movement get such a hard time? Fucking great record from start to finish. In fact the inclusion of the singles/B-sides spoils it for me; they should be kept seperate.
Anyone who thinks Movement is good needs their ears cleaned out. The studio production by Hannett is muddy and overproduced. Take out the Hannet mixes and replace them with the Peel Sessions and you have a much better record.
Republic I prefer - it carries an air of resigned, articulate disaster that few albums hold, and also, benefits from a unique atmosphere. i remember holding it in Leicester Burger King, barely in my twenties, thinking it was probably the last album - even on the day it came out - and probably the last New Order songs I would hear.
Regret - 10/10 – Classic Neworder World - 6/10 – Perfecto version would get 8/10 Ruined - 6/10 – K-Class version would get 9/10 Spooky – 6/10 – Stadium mix (extra bass) would get 8/10 Everyone everywhere – 5/10 – a skip track Young Offender - 5/10 – nice drums and *some *bass Liar – 6/10 – Musically uninspiring but lyrically pointed Chemical – 6/10 – Aggressive intro but interest soon fades Times Change – 4/10 – yellow fever / yellow hay. No. Special - 10/10 – Great song but some of the saddest lyrics Avalanche – 9/10 – Faith. Yes. Always. 73/110 = 66.4% - Not a bad score really, considering the ‘creative difficulties’.
Who’s Joe - 7/10 – Nice balance to synths/drums/guitar and bass.
Hey Now – 7/10 – Decent but wotchya lyrics again?
Sirens – 9/10 – Great tune - almost a classic
Krafty – 8/10 – Lovely drums and bass – and guitar outro
I Told You So – 5/10 – Not really what I want from Neworder
Morning Night & Day – 8/10 – Good solid song. Been there.
Dracula’s Castle – 9/10 - Brilliant Techniquey song. Just 2 faults: the ‘DC ‘in the title & lyrics. FFS.
Jetstream – 5/10 – Single is marginally better mix. A skip track.
Guilt – 8/10 – Solid dance beat and good interlaced guitars/bass.
Turn – 9/10 – I love this song.
Working Overtime – 4/10 – Skip track.
79/110 = 71.8%
Sirens wins by 5%, which is closer than I’d expected. Republic is saved by 3 classics whilst Sirens is more consistent, with some typically Neworder goofs (‘DC’ FFS, Working Overtime & ITYS.)
[This got me wondering, if you were to compile a 10 track compilation (to keep things tight) from the 3 post Factory LPs,which would come out on top. Probably for another thread though...]
Considering that Republic was allocated a Fact number FACT300 surely it is a Factory era LP?
I've always shuffled the running order of WFTSC, ending on Dracula's Castle, and taking out Working Overtime completely
Wow. Just.....wow.
Republic scoring much higher than Sirens Call in the poll.
I suppose it just goes to show how different we all are! I'm a long time New Order fan and I remember buying Sirens Call and putting it in the car on the way to work for its first listen. It stayed in the car for six weeks! I couldn't get enough of it. I still listen to it straight through at least once a month.
Republic is a good album but it's very much a once-a-year affair for me at most.
mark reed wrote: Anyone who thinks Movement is good needs their ears cleaned out. The studio production by Hannett is muddy and overproduced.
Nevermind the chuffing production, do you like the songs or not?
I think both are pretty even in my book, maybe Republic getting the slight nod because of the strength of "regret" and "ruined". Both albums released in different era, so they are products of the decade it was released so that weighs little differently to me.
Maybe it was the cover artwork on republic that i remember it as NO's most ambitious album in terms of reaching out to a broader audience yet didn't compromise on their music. In America when it was release, grunge music was in and NO didn't alter their sound to win fans over here.
|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:
PCL is a rather experimental LP. I'm sure for those who heard in 1983-85 it was very fresh and exciting. The quality is great. I heard it back in 1994, after Republic, Technique and Movement and I was not that impressed. Of course, Age of Consent, The Village and to some degree 586 were all superb, but the rest just didn't catch my ear enough to listen to that album over and over again for the past 17 years, unlike other albums.
I love the experimental nature of it.... I remember Tim Jauncey on here describing what it was like hearing Ultraviolence or Ecstacy (one of them) live back in 1982/83, like you say that must have been so exciting at the time, but I still play those 2 a fair bit when I listen to New Order. They're utterly mad and bouncy just like the whole of that album, it's like they just tossed the Joy Division blueprint out the window after Movement and made a complete shift.
Age of Consent is one of their very best songs, and you left out Leave Me Alone and Your Silent Face, which are great tracks - I mean if either of those had been on WFTSC the album's stock would be far higher. A shame they couldn't find a spot for Hurt, although it probably fits better the way it is on Factus 8. The PCL period is right in the heartland of New Order to me, I love it.
BTW maybe I haven't listened it for so long my memory is playing tricks on me, but I thought Ruined in a Day was ... not memorable?? Or rather, not so good that it would stand out on WFTSC?
I loved RIAD in 1993, but not so much now. Everyone Everywhere, on the other hand, has aged beautifully.
Housey wrote: Everyone Everywhere, on the other hand, has aged beautifully.
Why thank you sir 
Republic is the worst New Order album for me... Not to say there wasn't some good stuff on it, but compared to Technique or PC&L it's a great disappointment. Regret is fantastic, RIAD & World are good, and Special, Avalanche, Everyone Everywhere are just OK, but the rest is utter SHITE! Although I have to admit I recently heard the video mix of Spooky for the first time and it was great, a huge improvement over the album version of the track.
WFTSC... well, there aren't as many lows on it as Republic, but then again there aren't the highs of say a Regret on it either. But all in all it's a better album I think. Turn and WFTSC are both top notch plus Krafty is pretty good as well. I have to say I'm an I Told You So admirer as well, probably one of few..
I absolutely love the songs on Movement, although as has been said previously Martin Hannett's production killed it. But live it was a gem, their performances of Denial on the Italy '82 tour are as intense as anything I've ever heard from New Order. And the Peel Sessions version of ICB is sublime as well, sounds like a lost Joy Division classic!
everyoneverywhere wrote:
Was Barney right to throw a wobbler over Q's WFTSC review, or were they [for a change] spot on??
What review was that and what was Barney's response? I'd like to read them both, I'm sure they'd be quite amusing...
Asking us to compare one turd against another is a pretty pointless exercise....
Isn't it?
It all comes down to the texture I guess, and the 2005 discharge (literally!) has a few nuttier bits amongst the crud, whilst the 1993 'release' was much smoother and more like, oh....I'd say, diarrhoea......otherwise known as bum gravy.
:p
I do sometimes wonder why you're a fan, Eck.
You really do have fuck all positive to say :)
To write either album off as absolutely shocking in terms of every single minute of content is mad. There's some fantastic stuff on each. Some fans just love to fucking whine.
NotAMod wrote: I do sometimes wonder why you're a fan, Eck.
You really do have fuck all positive to say :)
To write either album off as absolutely shocking in terms of every single minute of content is mad. There's some fantastic stuff on each. Some fans just love to fucking whine.
You take my posts too seriously man...lighten up. :) If you were to delve back deeper in the forum you might discover that I DO hail half of each respective album on its own merits. In that previous thread that discusses these two albums - wherever the hell it is buried down the thread list - I state that Republic is 1 great song, 4 good ones and 6 duff ones. Likewise WFTSC has its good moments - of which there - again - are five, and there are six rather forgettable uneventful tracks..... Eureka!
I guess when we keep seeing the same thread subjects repeated over and over again then I have a tendency to just take the piss....as I'm sure many other posters do likewise. It's not such a crime is it surely? ;)
Remember the one undisputed fact: I am a Bunnymen fan first and foremost and a JD/NO fan kinda second or third just behind it..... but that doesn't stop me from having digs elsewhere at Ian Mac's less inspiring moments either!!
Skullcrushed wrote:
everyoneverywhere wrote:
Was Barney right to throw a wobbler over Q's WFTSC review, or were they [for a change] spot on??
What review was that and what was Barney's response? I'd like to read them both, I'm sure they'd be quite amusing...
From memory...it got 2/5. Not a particularly savage review, just tepid.
Then they doled out one of these pensioners-win-prizes gongs to NO at the Q awards. Hook (and maybe Morris?) showed up to get it. Sumner didn't.
In his acceptance speech, Peter said (words to the effect of) "Bernard would have been here, but he thinks you're all a bunch of two-faced hypocrites".
Tony Casanova wrote:
Skullcrushed wrote:
everyoneverywhere wrote:
Was Barney right to throw a wobbler over Q's WFTSC review, or were they [for a change] spot on??
What review was that and what was Barney's response? I'd like to read them both, I'm sure they'd be quite amusing...
From memory...it got 2/5. Not a particularly savage review, just tepid.
Then they doled out one of these pensioners-win-prizes gongs to NO at the Q awards. Hook (and maybe Morris?) showed up to get it. Sumner didn't.
In his acceptance speech, Peter said (words to the effect of) "Bernard would have been here, but he thinks you're all a bunch of two-faced hypocrites".
Really? That's pretty awesome.
By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote:
You take my posts too seriously man...lighten up. :) If you were to delve back deeper in the forum you might discover that I DO hail half of each respective album on its own merits. In that previous thread that discusses these two albums - wherever the hell it is buried down the thread list - I state that Republic is 1 great song, 4 good ones and 6 duff ones. Likewise WFTSC has its good moments - of which there - again - are five, and there are six rather forgettable uneventful tracks..... Eureka!
Haha yeah Ally, your fault for not familiarising yerself with 'Ecky's post history before you commented !
Years ago an article (the one flicked thru at the start of the Regret Wankwatch vid!) described Brotherhood as a 'son of LowLife', and I reckon you can describe a lot of their weaker moments thus - Movement to Closer, Raise The Pressure to Electronic, Monaco to Music For Pleasure... And of course Republic to Technique, and WFTSC (always looks rude, that) to Get Ready. When I first heard Republic I was disppointed but everyone was and we've had nearly 20 years to get over it. Sirens is all right but I preferred GR and am surprised at the criticisms it's getting - the second half is a tad hit 'n' miss but Crystal and trax 3 - 5 still slay.
Michael Monkhouse wrote: Years ago an article (the one flicked thru at the start of the Regret Wankwatch vid!) described Brotherhood as a 'son of LowLife', and I reckon you can describe a lot of their weaker moments thus - Movement to Closer, Raise The Pressure to Electronic, Monaco to Music For Pleasure... And of course Republic to Technique, and WFTSC (always looks rude, that) to Get Ready. When I first heard Republic I was disppointed but everyone was and we've had nearly 20 years to get over it. Sirens is all right but I preferred GR and am surprised at the criticisms it's getting - the second half is a tad hit 'n' miss but Crystal and trax 3 - 5 still slay.
I agree with you only I'd say that most of Get Ready is decent, I can even Rock The Shack! Plus nothing is remotedly as bad as Working Overtime, so it's naturally going to kick Sirens' ass.
Sirens over Republic (a glorified single with a ton of B-sides) or Get Ready (some very good stuff, some real duds). Sirens has its flaws (mostly lyrical, Vlad), but on the whole it's more consistent than GR and simply better written than Republic. And it's better produced than either.
Chase wrote: Sirens over Republic (a glorified single with a ton of B-sides) or Get Ready (some very good stuff, some real duds). Sirens has its flaws (mostly lyrical, Vlad), but on the whole it's more consistent than GR and simply better written than Republic. And it's better produced than either.
Rubbish. Republic pisses over both GR and Sirens. It features the ultimate NO line up after all!
The Paradise Man wrote:
Chase wrote: Sirens over Republic (a glorified single with a ton of B-sides) or Get Ready (some very good stuff, some real duds). Sirens has its flaws (mostly lyrical, Vlad), but on the whole it's more consistent than GR and simply better written than Republic. And it's better produced than either.
Rubbish. Republic pisses over both GR and Sirens. It features the ultimate NO line up after all!
Listened to both of them driving around in the car today, to refresh my memory. Purchased 'Republic' when it came out, same for 'WFSC'. Have to totally agree with the above, apart from 'Regret', which is a total classic track, most of the album is orindary. 'WFSC', has some weak moments('Draculas castle would be a far better song with a different title), but overall is more consistant. It has the vibe and atmosphere that attracted me to New Order, Morris' drumming, Hooks bass. Even 'Krafty', which annoyed me, I don't mind now.
Lyrics are ordinary, but overall, clearly a way better album.
Can't remember where I saw this...but Republic is the sound of the band breaking up.
Could there be a reason that the 4 singles are the 4 first songs on the album? Assuming one listens non-stop from 1 to 4 then we kind of listen to a bit of 5 to end, before we know it, we are done listening. :P
Get Ready has the sound of the band members building their bridges.
I actually like WFTSC.
For me it boils down to Republic defining the end of an era and also the end of NO. Witnessing the last show before the break up at Reading in 1993 was a sad end to a great band. When they reformed in 1998 there was hope but as soon as Gillian left it was downhill. I do like GR and Sirens and there are some wonderful songs to be found but the real New Order died in 1993. That is why I prefer Republic. Yes it has it's faults but it is the last great slab of NO.
The Paradise Man wrote: For me it boils down to Republic defining the end of an era and also the end of NO. Witnessing the last show before the break up at Reading in 1993 was a sad end to a great band. When they reformed in 1998 there was hope but as soon as Gillian left it was downhill. I do like GR and Sirens and there are some wonderful songs to be found but the real New Order died in 1993. That is why I prefer Republic. Yes it has it's faults but it is the last great slab of NO.
Reading 93, was a great show, would have been fantastic to have seen it.
condemnation wrote:
The Paradise Man wrote: For me it boils down to Republic defining the end of an era and also the end of NO. Witnessing the last show before the break up at Reading in 1993 was a sad end to a great band. When they reformed in 1998 there was hope but as soon as Gillian left it was downhill. I do like GR and Sirens and there are some wonderful songs to be found but the real New Order died in 1993. That is why I prefer Republic. Yes it has it's faults but it is the last great slab of NO.
Reading 93, was a great show, would have been fantastic to have seen it.
It was very special. Even though you could tell they weren't getting on they were very tight because they had been on tour and the atmosphere was special. I remember moshing right under their noses. Memories.
The Paradise Man wrote:
condemnation wrote:
The Paradise Man wrote: For me it boils down to Republic defining the end of an era and also the end of NO. Witnessing the last show before the break up at Reading in 1993 was a sad end to a great band. When they reformed in 1998 there was hope but as soon as Gillian left it was downhill. I do like GR and Sirens and there are some wonderful songs to be found but the real New Order died in 1993. That is why I prefer Republic. Yes it has it's faults but it is the last great slab of NO.
Reading 93, was a great show, would have been fantastic to have seen it.
It was very special. Even though you could tell they weren't getting on they were very tight because they had been on tour and the atmosphere was special. I remember noshing right under their noses. Memories.
I have the full BBC recording, and the 3-4 different bootleg cd's of it. But to be there, would've been great.
The Paradise Man wrote:
Chase wrote: Sirens over Republic (a glorified single with a ton of B-sides) or Get Ready (some very good stuff, some real duds). Sirens has its flaws (mostly lyrical, Vlad), but on the whole it's more consistent than GR and simply better written than Republic. And it's better produced than either.
Rubbish. Republic pisses over both GR and Sirens. It features the ultimate NO line up after all!
Yes, but they weren't speaking to each other.
Is it wrong to love all three albums? Only complaint is a couple random songs that could have been done away with... but no complaint here...
Now if we talk about recent side projects... then I'm all about dancing around a bonfire of album covers...
Chase wrote:
The Paradise Man wrote:
Chase wrote: Sirens over Republic (a glorified single with a ton of B-sides) or Get Ready (some very good stuff, some real duds). Sirens has its flaws (mostly lyrical, Vlad), but on the whole it's more consistent than GR and simply better written than Republic. And it's better produced than either.
Rubbish. Republic pisses over both GR and Sirens. It features the ultimate NO line up after all!
Yes, but they weren't speaking to each other.
I think the 'not speaking to each other' line is overused. Yes certainly towards the end of the tour leading up to Reading, but during the writing and recording the band were at least friendly and working towards the release. With the pressures of Factory and the problems at the Hacienda, tensions were mounting however. Regret, World, Ruined, Spooky, Young Offender, Special and Avalanche are without doubt better than anything on Sirens.
NotAMod wrote: I do sometimes wonder why you're a fan, Eck.
You really do have fuck all positive to say :)
To write either album off as absolutely shocking in terms of every single minute of content is mad. There's some fantastic stuff on each. Some fans just love to fucking whine.
To be fair, they are both crap! 
I'm going with WFTSC. Although some of the lyrics were clunky, they reflected a lot of things that were happening in my life. Sometimes an album just hits you in the right way at the right time. Just because of that, it's a classic in my mind. Besides, if you look at what else was happening in music in 2005, I think WFTSC was the best album NO could've made at the time.
The Paradise Man wrote: For me it boils down to Republic defining the end of an era and also the end of NO. Witnessing the last show before the break up at Reading in 1993 was a sad end to a great band. When they reformed in 1998 there was hope but as soon as Gillian left it was downhill. I do like GR and Sirens and there are some wonderful songs to be found but the real New Order died in 1993. That is why I prefer Republic. Yes it has it's faults but it is the last great slab of NO.
So if the released dates/lineups were reversed, your opinions of the albums would be as well?
Andy wrote:
The Paradise Man wrote: For me it boils down to Republic defining the end of an era and also the end of NO. Witnessing the last show before the break up at Reading in 1993 was a sad end to a great band. When they reformed in 1998 there was hope but as soon as Gillian left it was downhill. I do like GR and Sirens and there are some wonderful songs to be found but the real New Order died in 1993. That is why I prefer Republic. Yes it has it's faults but it is the last great slab of NO.
So if the released dates/lineups were reversed, your opinions of the albums would be as well?
'If only me auntie had bollocks, she'd be me uncle!'
The Paradise Man wrote:
Chase wrote:
The Paradise Man wrote:
Chase wrote: Sirens over Republic (a glorified single with a ton of B-sides) or Get Ready (some very good stuff, some real duds). Sirens has its flaws (mostly lyrical, Vlad), but on the whole it's more consistent than GR and simply better written than Republic. And it's better produced than either.
Rubbish. Republic pisses over both GR and Sirens. It features the ultimate NO line up after all!
Yes, but they weren't speaking to each other.
I think the 'not speaking to each other' line is overused.
Yes it's as if The NewOrderStory video never happened [filmed summer '93?? All seem to be speaking to each other??]
wait, i thought hooky was the one who stopped drinking?
pretty sure sumner still likes his bevvies.
Tarbox23 wrote: wait, i thought hooky was the one who stopped drinking?
pretty sure sumner still likes his bevvies.
Well, he said so in a 1996 interview when promoting Raise the Pressure. Damn Prozak and all that shit that kills good music...
Things like this make me choose Republic, because of novelty value and a sense of "what the fuck"
