75 replies · 3,677 views
59 votes · voting closed
We have enough threads on the gigs and controversy so I thought I'd do a poll of 2 widely criticised NO albums.
2 questions...
Are they underrated masterpieces which people may learn to love over time, or are they criminally average New Order albums when we expect much more?
Which is the lesser of the two "evils" and why?
Was Barney right to throw a wobbler over Q's WFTSC review, or were they [for a change] spot on??
There's only one way to find out...
Republic has the better cover art.
Don't think either is criminally underrated, and I have not learned to love Republic over time. Regret is a great song, the rest gets very bland and boring, especially in the middle. Some talk about the missing bass, but the beats are boring also. A bland house-lite album.
WFTSC is unfairly put down for it's attempt at diversity, the band at least tries many ideas and seems to be having fun. Maybe with all the better songs on one album (instead of split up with the aborted second album) it would have been stronger.
I think when you stack it up that Republic has Regret, Ruined In A Day, Everyone Everywhere, Special and yes.... World [Price Of Love]... and WFTSC has nothing as good as most of those tracks, it makes Republic the better album for me.
There's no "Regret" on WFTSC for sure, and no "Ruined In A Day" which I think is one of the most under-rated New Order singles of all time.
It's fair to say WFTSC has its moments though. Notably Krafty, Hey What You Doing, Guilt, Morning Night & Day and Turn. And I'm afraid I'm also in the exclusive I Told You So fanclub ***ducks flying copies of jetstream 12" singles***
My memories of Republic are more fond than Waiting For The Sirens' Call. I guess it's because it was longer ago when the original New Order still were together and partly because the fantastic Regret single. But at the time, I really liked Special and the other (remixes of the) singles too.
Waiting For The Sirens' Call has also about 4 great tracks, just like Republic. What I REALLY like about WFTSC is Krafty and the title song.
Ofcourse the artwork of Republic is much more attractive.
Republic for me. Miles better than WFTSC.
Maybe the tracks aren't mixed to everyone's tastes (Hooky too far down etc), but the songs themselves are much better. Better art for the album/singles and better remixes too.
I'd like to love WFTSC, but it's not something I play often if at all.
everyoneverywhere wrote: I think when you stack it up that Republic has Regret, Ruined In A Day, Everyone Everywhere, Special and yes.... World [Price Of Love]... and WFTSC has nothing as good as most of those tracks, it makes Republic the better album for me.
Ah the diversity of New Order fans. The first half of WFTSC + Turn are much better than Ruined in a Day and comparable to many of the other tracks there, to my ears.
I've got to say Republic... I only really like the title track from WFTSC, Krafty & Turn... The rest of it is I'm afraid to say pretty average (for New Order at least)... Republic has Regret, Ruined In A Day, Everyone Everywhere, Special & Avalanche... Oh and the artwork is better...
You forgot to add MOVEMENT! :)
Although I love Movement, but it's generally considered a weak album.
I voted Republic, although I don't remember when I listened to it last time. Its needs remastering badly!!! It really suffers from that flat early 90s CD sound.
I just noticed both records cover art features the colour orange. If that means anything... a warning?
The oval orange O at the right lower side of both covers... a bad omen for the band? Both covers foreshadow a breakup and a negative result 
everyoneverywhere wrote:
Do tracks like Crystal or Regret swing either of them to your favour?
Crystal would have to swing pretty far...
Waiting for the Sirens' Call would be my choice.
When Regret was released, it promised much more than Republic delivered. Nothing else on the album comes close. 10 out of 10.
World is alright but sounds like an Other Two track that Barney and Hooky didn't really get behind. 6 out of 10.
Ruined in a Day is pretty good but not single material. I do appreciate the mood of it. 7 out of 10.
Spooky starts promisingly enough but the chorus is lame. 4 out of 10.
Everyone Everywhere (no offence) is just limp. I was shocked that they chose that track to perform live on the '93 tour. Just dreadful. 3 out of 10.
Young Offender is the one that got away. This really could have been spiced up to make a better single release than either Ruined... or Spooky. As it is, it's one of the strongest album tracks to these ears. 7 out of 10.
At the time of release, Liar took a lot of flack for the pronounced backing vocals. It doesn't sound nearly as jarring today as Bernard's taste for them has been shown on many a track since. Nice chorus and I think it's only crime is that it sounds more suited to an Electronic album than New Order. 7 out of 10.
Chemical is easily the most dated track. I liked the power drill sounds but most of the music was ravebythenumbers. 2 out of 10.
Times Change goes back to Electronic territory yet I hear the influences of Hooky, Steve and Gillian in the instrumental flourishes. Unfortunately, the EMF drumbeat and wacky lyrics ruin the mood. 5 out of 10.
Special aims to be the poignant highlight of the album and succeeds. If the music sounded as inspired as it's Technique counterpart (Vanishing Point), I'd be a little more impressed. 8 out of 10.
Avalanche is pretty much perfect. But it exposes the flaw in Republic. It sounds like pure inspiration when many other tracks sound like New Order stopped searching for it. 9 out of 10.
While I obviously have my issues with Republic, you could argue that it hangs together better as an LP than Waiting For the Sirens' Call. I just think WFTSC has more quality tracks.
Hey Joe starts the album on a strange tone but really wouldn't fit anywhere else in the tracklisting. 6 out of 10.
Hey Now What You Doing is a bit of a blueprint for the direction that Bad Lieutenant took. unfortunately that album had few tracks as good as this. 8 out of 10.
Waiting For the Sirens' Call is epic. While the lyrics are more detached than Regret, the gorgeous backing track makes it it's equal in my eyes. Hooky's Swansong? 10 out of 10.
Krafty is on the light side but has all the elements you want in a New Order single. It was reassuring for me to hear it after they strayed so far from this sound with most of Get Ready. 8 out of 10.
I Told You So seems to be one of the (several) like it or hate it moments on the album for people. I had an easier time getting over the Ace of Base kickdrum than I did the honey/money couplet in Crystal so I'm in the like it camp. It may not be as "experimental" as Bernard championed it as, but the changes is goes through are very appealing to me. 7 out of 10.
Morning Night and Day is the weakest track to me. The lyrics are a bit awkward and the bassline favours Material Girl. Not a great combo. Should have saved it for Bad Lieutenant. 3 out of 10.
Dracula's Castle is the missed opportunity on the album to me. The backing track is a fantastic return to Technique era sounds and arrangements but Vlad spoils the party. I maintain that if Dracula wasn't mentioned in either the title or the lyrics, this would be hailed as one of their late era highlights. That just sucks. See what I did there? 8 out of 10 anyway.
Jetstream is not the failure that it's made out to be. If it wasn't released as a single - to capitalize on it's catchy, annoying qualities - that would be a problem. Yes, it's a lame album track. But as a single, it was a worthy attempt to break back into the charts. 5 out of 10.
Guilt is a Useless Emotion probably should have been the second single. It's synthy and propulsive and sports some saucy lyrics from the Barnster. Full disclosure: I love If You've Got Love from Electronic as well. This is cut from similar cloth. 8 out of 10.
Turn appears just as the album was starting to get a little too lighthearted. The segue from the synths and sass of the previous track knock you back to reality with acoustic guitars and a somber tone. While the lyrics are awkward at times, I interpret that as the times when strong emotions can make you inarticulate. 9 out of 10.
Working Overtime could have worked best in the outdated guise of the Hidden Track. Not listed on the sleeve, or in the booklet but hey! New Order are working overtime with a Iggy style romp! Unexpected but fun! 6 out of 10 'cause it sounds like they were enjoying themselves.
Republic average: 6.18
Waiting For the Sirens' Call average: 7.09
At the time Republic was released I was really disappointed. After Technique, the long delay and the fine single Regret I was expecting so much. Over time grown to like it more but the 1st side is so much better than the 2nd. No bass guitar! So maybe the upcoming gigs will paly the whole of Republic b side.
WFTSC I really likeed on its release, it was another New Order album, more gigs to go to my favourite band was still going... Some great track again on WFTSC with the 1st side again beign stronger. Turn is a great track on the b side though. So WFTSC has a fonder place in my heart and therefore gets the vote....
Andy wrote:
Avalanche is pretty much perfect. But it exposes the flaw in Republic. It sounds like pure inspiration when many other tracks sound like New Order stopped searching for it. 9 out of 10.
Indeed.Spot on.
Andy wrote:
everyoneverywhere wrote:
Do tracks like Crystal or Regret swing either of them to your favour?
Crystal would have to swing pretty far...
Waiting for the Sirens' Call would be my choice.
When Regret was released, it promised much more than Republic delivered. Nothing else on the album comes close. 10 out of 10.
World is alright but sounds like an Other Two track that Barney and Hooky didn't really get behind. 6 out of 10.
Ruined in a Day is pretty good but not single material. I do appreciate the mood of it. 7 out of 10.
Spooky starts promisingly enough but the chorus is lame. 4 out of 10.
Everyone Everywhere (no offence) is just limp. I was shocked that they chose that track to perform live on the '93 tour. Just dreadful. 3 out of 10.
Young Offender is the one that got away. This really could have been spiced up to make a better single release than either Ruined... or Spooky. As it is, it's one of the strongest album tracks to these ears. 7 out of 10.
At the time of release, Liar took a lot of flack for the pronounced backing vocals. It doesn't sound nearly as jarring today as Bernard's taste for them has been shown on many a track since. Nice chorus and I think it's only crime is that it sounds more suited to an Electronic album than New Order. 7 out of 10.
Chemical is easily the most dated track. I liked the power drill sounds but most of the music was ravebythenumbers. 2 out of 10.
Times Change goes back to Electronic territory yet I hear the influences of Hooky, Steve and Gillian in the instrumental flourishes. Unfortunately, the EMF drumbeat and wacky lyrics ruin the mood. 5 out of 10.
Special aims to be the poignant highlight of the album and succeeds. If the music sounded as inspired as it's Technique counterpart (Vanishing Point), I'd be a little more impressed. 8 out of 10.
Avalanche is pretty much perfect. But it exposes the flaw in Republic. It sounds like pure inspiration when many other tracks sound like New Order stopped searching for it. 9 out of 10.
While I obviously have my issues with Republic, you could argue that it hangs together better as an LP than Waiting For the Sirens' Call. I just think WFTSC has more quality tracks.
Hey Joe starts the album on a strange tone but really wouldn't fit anywhere else in the tracklisting. 6 out of 10.
Hey Now What You Doing is a bit of a blueprint for the direction that Bad Lieutenant took. unfortunately that album had few tracks as good as this. 8 out of 10.
Waiting For the Sirens' Call is epic. While the lyrics are more detached than Regret, the gorgeous backing track makes it it's equal in my eyes. Hooky's Swansong? 10 out of 10.
Krafty is on the light side but has all the elements you want in a New Order single. It was reassuring for me to hear it after they strayed so far from this sound with most of Get Ready. 8 out of 10.
I Told You So seems to be one of the (several) like it or hate it moments on the album for people. I had an easier time getting over the Ace of Base kickdrum than I did the honey/money couplet in Crystal so I'm in the like it camp. It may not be as "experimental" as Bernard championed it as, but the changes is goes through are very appealing to me. 7 out of 10.
Morning Night and Day is the weakest track to me. The lyrics are a bit awkward and the bassline favours Material Girl. Not a great combo. Should have saved it for Bad Lieutenant. 3 out of 10.
Dracula's Castle is the missed opportunity on the album to me. The backing track is a fantastic return to Technique era sounds and arrangements but Vlad spoils the party. I maintain that if Dracula wasn't mentioned in either the title or the lyrics, this would be hailed as one of their late era highlights. That just sucks. See what I did there? 8 out of 10 anyway.
Jetstream is not the failure that it's made out to be. If it wasn't released as a single - to capitalize on it's catchy, annoying qualities - that would be a problem. Yes, it's a lame album track. But as a single, it was a worthy attempt to break back into the charts. 5 out of 10.
Guilt is a Useless Emotion probably should have been the second single. It's synthy and propulsive and sports some saucy lyrics from the Barnster. Full disclosure: I love If You've Got Love from Electronic as well. This is cut from similar cloth. 8 out of 10.
Turn appears just as the album was starting to get a little too lighthearted. The segue from the synths and sass of the previous track knock you back to reality with acoustic guitars and a somber tone. While the lyrics are awkward at times, I interpret that as the times when strong emotions can make you inarticulate. 9 out of 10.
Working Overtime could have worked best in the outdated guise of the Hidden Track. Not listed on the sleeve, or in the booklet but hey! New Order are working overtime with a Iggy style romp! Unexpected but fun! 6 out of 10 'cause it sounds like they were enjoying themselves.
Republic average: 6.18
Waiting For the Sirens' Call average: 7.09
Sirens.
I really didn't/dont like Republic, whereas I was simply indifferent to Sirens (I probably couldn't even attempt to guess the tracklisting if pushed).
Sirens is the lesser of two evils.
I'd save Republic from the fire before either Get Ready or WFTSC. Admirably fair-minded write-up, Andy. I'll play too:
Who’s joe 7 Hey now 5 Wftsc 10 Krafty 7 I told you so 5 Morning night and day 3 Dracula 5 Jet 4 Guilt 7 Turn 9 Working overtime 5
Regret 10 World 6 Ruined 6 Spooky 7 EE 7 Young Offender 7 Liar 7 Chemical 5 Times Change 6 Special 8 Avalanche 6
Republic actually wins more clearly than that for me because I still play the whole thing through from time to time - and for me its always worked well as an album. WFTSC has always had this big hole in the middle where tracks 5-8 should be. I don't find e.g. "I told you so" bad, I just rarely want to hear it...:\ohwell:
I purchased both 'Brotherhood' and 'Technique' on there release, loved both of them. When 'Regret' came out as the first single, I thought, this is looking good, wow!! Not so much for the 'Republic' album, for me.
If you really like the electronic side of New Order, as opposed to the combination of the rock/electronic, then I can understand 'Republic' being a favourite. To me, there's no real drums, little guitar, and not a lot of bass guitar. Would be interesting to know why the 1993 sets lists were so drab!
Regret 10/10 - One of the finest New Order singles ever. World - 10/10 - I love it. So there. Ruined - 10/10 - Underrated as fook. Love this one too. Spooky - 3/10 - What went wrong here, started out so well.. Everyone Everywhere - 10/10. Sublime. Young Offender 6/10 - It's not bad, but aged badly. Liar 5/10 - Pretty poor really and again not aged too well. Chemical 5/10 - Another mediocre that has aged badly. Times Change 7/10 - Stinks of 90sness but a passable effort Special 10/10 - Another stonker, nicely placed before finale Avalanche 9/10 - Possibly my favourite New Order instrumental.
85/110 = 77% A good if not outstanding album!
Who’s Joe 7/10 - Quite moving and different direction. Hey What You Doing 7/10 - I like it but its too guitar driven Waiting For The Sirens Call 10/10 - Beautful and moving. Krafty 8/10 - Another nice song which hits me though partly due to the period it was released. I Told You So 8/10 - I know. It's a guilty pleasure ok? Morning, Night & Day - 7/10 - Can't see why this gets such bad comments, it's up-tempo and uplifting... and you can hear it as backing music on Top Gear. Draculas Castle 5/10 - Fair play for being the most Technique-sounding but something is missing Jetstream 5/10 - Not as good as the single version and that is saying something. Guilt Is A Useless Emotion 8/10 - Could have been a 10 but loses its way for the second half. Turn 7/10 - Everyone seems to love it but I find it too Smithsy-sounding for my liking Working Overtime 1/10 - Contender for worst New Order song ever.
73/110 = 66% Average.
So of the two WFTSC is the more consistent, but Republic has more tracks I adore making it win.
This seems to have stirred up a few feelings...
Waiting For The Sirens' Call is easily better, simply because there is less two-chord/one-chord-phrase rap (with a capital 'C').
Regret and Ruined In A Day are very good songs.
Young Offender has a nice instrumental MID section.
The rest - including World (The Price Of Love), as many have already stated - doesn't live up to expectation... 
There are two monsters on Waiting For The Sirens' Call:
Morning, Night And Day, one of Bernard's best lyrics written, and Stephen Morris's drums capture the moment perfectly. 
Guilt Is A Useless Emotion (a hard one to type quickly!), classic New Order at their best too.
Now I've never bought Power, Corruption And Lies, but I can't believe it could be any better than Waiting For The Sirens' Call. There best studio album, in my humble opinion... 
Empress Touch wrote: This seems to have stirred up a few feelings...
Waiting For The Sirens' Call is easily better, simply because there is less two-chord/one-chord-phrase rap (with a capital 'C').
Regret and Ruined In A Day are very good songs.
Young Offender has a nice instrumental MID section.
The rest - including World (The Price Of Love), as many have already stated - doesn't live up to expectation...
There are two monsters on Waiting For The Sirens' Call:
Morning, Night And Day, one of Bernard's best lyrics written, and Stephen Morris's drums capture the moment perfectly.
Guilt Is A Useless Emotion (a hard one to type quickly!), classic New Order at their best too.
Now I've never bought Power, Corruption And Lies, but I can't believe it could be any better than Waiting For The Sirens' Call. There best studio album, in my humble opinion...
You got to be kidding? PCL pisses all over wtftsc. It's like going from waitrose to Lidl!!!
Empress Touch wrote: This seems to have stirred up a few feelings...
Waiting For The Sirens' Call is easily better, simply because there is less two-chord/one-chord-phrase rap (with a capital 'C').
Regret and Ruined In A Day are very good songs.
Young Offender has a nice instrumental MID section.
The rest - including World (The Price Of Love), as many have already stated - doesn't live up to expectation...
There are two monsters on Waiting For The Sirens' Call:
Morning, Nigght and Day, one of Bernard's best lyrics written, and Stephen Morris's drums capture the moment perfectly.
Guilt Is A Useless Emotion (a hard one to type quickly!), classic New Order at their best too.
Now I've never bought Power, Corruption And Lies, but I can't believe it could be any better than Waiting For The Sirens' Call. There best studio album, in my humble opinion...
Buy Power, Corruption, and Lies ASAP 
It's uneven but the band is in it's own league at that point of time.
0_o wrote:
Empress Touch wrote: This seems to have stirred up a few feelings...
Waiting For The Sirens' Call is easily better, simply because there is less two-chord/one-chord-phrase rap (with a capital 'C').
Regret and Ruined In A Day are very good songs.
Young Offender has a nice instrumental MID section.
The rest - including World (The Price Of Love), as many have already stated - doesn't live up to expectation...
There are two monsters on Waiting For The Sirens' Call:
Morning, Nigght and Day, one of Bernard's best lyrics written, and Stephen Morris's drums capture the moment perfectly.
Guilt Is A Useless Emotion (a hard one to type quickly!), classic New Order at their best too.
Now I've never bought Power, Corruption And Lies, but I can't believe it could be any better than Waiting For The Sirens' Call. There best studio album, in my humble opinion...
Buy Power, Corruption, and Lies ASAP
PCL is a rather experimental LP. I'm sure, for those who heard it back in 1983-85 it was very fresh and exciting. The quality is great (better than on "Get Ready"!). I heard it for the first time in 1994, after Republic, Technique, Low-Life and Brotherhood and I was not that impressed. Of course, Age of Consent, The Village and to some degree 586 were all superb, but the rest just didn't catch my ear enough to listen to that album over and over again for the past 17 years, unlike other albums.
