Hooky Vs. New Order Now: Let's set things straight.

Right then,

Right now it's 1:46 am, humid as all hell and I can't sleep, and with impending New Order gigs (and the potential to pose some questions to the band), along with seeing Hooky again in April, I thought I'd share my thoughts from everything I've seen and read since 2007.

I rarely, if ever, comment upon the whole debacle; I like New Order, I like Hooky, I like Bad Lieutenant, and their personal affairs don't really matter to me, but given the facts of future events just around the corner, I think it's worth having a little think about. For me personally at least.

From what I've gathered (and I'm taking all of this from memory from a vast array of very public interviews posted over the last few years), it started out with Hooky leaving the band. Then we had comments by Bernard saying that it was like a marriage gone sour; things like Hooky "licking his fingers after eating potato chips while having his hands on the steering wheel of the car," and things like that gave him the shits.

Then we hear comments from Hooky saying things like how he really liked Bad Lieutenant and wished Bernard and the other guys all the best. Then, weeks later, stating that he would fuck them over in any way he possibly could.

Then we hear comments from Hooky saying that "it's a real shame," given their legacy and history, while in other moments he has made comments that make him sound entirely relieved to be away from any of the ex-bandmates and is looking to the future (back then, to Freebass, etc).

So, really, all of this constant, CONSTANT hot/cold/hot/cold/hot/cold leads me to believe that it all really did boil down to one specific event or incident... something which I recall Bernard hinting at in one of the many interviews at one point but never elaborating upon.

So, can we pinpoint what it might be? In one vein we hear solemn regret and well-wishes from Hooky towards Bernard and co., even to Bad Lieutenant, and then the next it's all about lawyers and not being invited to play as New Order. Yet, he goes out and plays Joy Division material.

So, coming from the most rational and well-read perspective that I can, I'm really trying to determine what all this initially stemmed from. What one thing happened for all of this hypocrisy to take place? Hooky was happy to help out in getting the Lost Sirens' released, and that new compilation with Hellbent on it, AND the (albeit shitty) Rhino remasters. So there are good spirits there. There have been good spirits everywhere, in fact, until a week or so later the dissing resumes (i.e. towards Gillian), and the shit hits the fan once again. Then weeks later, based upon precedent, things seem far more mature and level-headed again, and Hooky is once more praising Bernard and co. in a roundabout way, although sometimes even directly.

So having said all that (and please read it all before commenting; I rarely make long posts on here, and I feel this is all very relevant given the fact that they'll all be here in the next two months)... what do you think it all boiled down to? What's with the total hostility - back to being civil - back to hostile attitude?

Please let me reiterate that I adore all members of the band and am in no position nor want to diss any particular member. This is all out of sheer curiosity because of the vast amounts of different testimonies I've read from all parties involved. It's really quite fascinating actually; if you piece it all together, none of it all really makes sense. That's why I feel like it all comes down to some old, fleeting incident that left a bad taste, and instead of addressing it directly it's all become this big massive pile of redundant shit that means nothing, and nothing but well wishes are what truly lie beneath the surface of it all. Either that, or it's one hell of a publicity stunt.

Replies thoroughly welcomed and encouraged!

I'll end on a lyric: "Where will it end?"

There is no end.......

The beginning is the end of the beginning......

We can piss fart around with concise, witty posts in other threads (I encourage it; leaves a light atmosphere around here), but I'm looking for some really elaborate responses to this one. I think it's important at this juncture.

El Jarvo wrote:

Ryan wrote: I think it's important at this juncture.

No it isn't.

You naively seem to suggest there's One Big Bad Thing that's happened which split the band apart.

When the truth is much more boring. It appears to be simply that they've just drifted further apart as the years have gone on and now reached a point where the gulf between them is beyond the point of any return.

That's just life, sadly.

Exactly. I think they already drifted apart in the 80ies which led to the split in 89 and to an album in 93 which was made under massive tension, after the 5 year hiatus they could rebuild their friendship for "Get Ready" but they got on each other nerves quite soon again. I wouldn't overestimate the "life long" friendship between Barney and Hooky. MOst of the time they had to struggle with the other.

joe davola wrote:

El Jarvo wrote:

Ryan wrote: I think it's important at this juncture.

No it isn't.

You naively seem to suggest there's One Big Bad Thing that's happened which split the band apart.

When the truth is much more boring. It appears to be simply that they've just drifted further apart as the years have gone on and now reached a point where the gulf between them is beyond the point of any return.

That's just life, sadly.

Exactly. I think they already drifted apart in the 80ies which led to the split in 89 and to an album in 93 which was made under massive tension, after the 5 year hiatus they could rebuild their friendship for "Get Ready" but they got on each other nerves quite soon again. I wouldn't overestimate the "life long" friendship between Barney and Hooky. MOst of the time they had to struggle with the other.

Who cares NEW ORDER are gigging that'll do for me

Ryan wrote: We can piss fart around with concise, witty posts in other threads (I encourage it; leaves a light atmosphere around here), but I'm looking for some really elaborate responses to this one. I think it's important at this juncture.

You are asking questions that only Hooky and the rest of the band can answer.

There is no definitave answer, there is the legend and mystique that has always surrounded joy division / new order,there is also plenty of conjecture and sensationalist journalism.

Its easier to print the Legend than the truth.

Who knows?

Rocket Mick wrote: Who knows?

HEAVEN knows Mick, only HEAVEN knows... :(

We may never know... it's between the parties concerned (I'm guessing mostly between Bernard and Peter). Looks like neither of them want to specify the details of why they fell out, so probably best to leave it at that.

PH and BS do seem like fundamentally different people with different personalities, so it's perhaps a miracle they stayed mates and band members as long as they did. Let's face it we all have to work with the odd person who we have a very different worldview from.... and it can be a massive pain in the arse.

Hopefully the sniping in interviews will fade away and they'll all just move on.

Hooky gets to play his choice of songs with The Light and tours as often as he likes. The other guys continue as NO and do their thing.

Nothing else to say really - just let 'em get on with it and hope they carry on and do some cracking gigs as The Light and NO.... don't think there's much point continually hashing over their differences here - it's just picking at scabs.

personally , i couldnt give a shit really,new order in whatever form are touring (great news), the light are touring the jd stuff, and from recent news previewd some movement tracks (looking forward to that. so in a roundabout way as fans we have benefited from it all. however!!! i think ryan is spot on the money when he thinks that one particular event sparked this all off, they have been getting on each others tits for years lets face it,and they have sounded like a pair of moaning old gits at best for years, but have still managed to keep their shit together for the greater good of the band. what went on, i dont know, but my guess is it happened in brazil,when you trace the lineage back, hooky came off that tour stating that "some people dont know what they have until its gone" i thought at the time that it was aimed at bernard and wondered if there was trouble at the mill. so if you get to meet em ryan, push the bastards on "the brazil incident" when it all comes out in the wash, and it will id put money on a major fall out in brazil,which has took on a life of its own since and neither party is able to swallow their pride and throw on the brakes.

586 wrote: personally , i couldnt give a shit really,new order in whatever form are touring (great news), the light are touring the jd stuff, and from recent news previewd some movement tracks (looking forward to that. so in a roundabout way as fans we have benefited from it all. however!!! i think ryan is spot on the money when he thinks that one particular event sparked this all off, they have been getting on each others tits for years lets face it,and they have sounded like a pair of moaning old gits at best for years, but have still managed to keep their shit together for the greater good of the band. what went on, i dont know, but my guess is it happened in brazil,when you trace the lineage back, hooky came off that tour stating that "some people dont know what they have until its gone" i thought at the time that it was aimed at bernard and wondered if there was trouble at the mill. so if you get to meet em ryan, push the bastards on "the brazil incident" when it all comes out in the wash, and it will id put money on a major fall out in brazil,which has took on a life of its own since and neither party is able to swallow their pride and throw on the brakes.

When's Hooky's autobiography out

as has been said, we are unlikely to ever know, but look on the bright side, there's two great bands to go and see now, I'm sure you'll love the New Order gig, and will love the Hooky & the Light gig, they're both great bands, would be nice to see them all together again, but that again is unlikely.

hooky is tremendously insecure, and seemingliy bipolar. Bernard is a grown up child. And I am a HUGE fan of both of them.

no matter how much we've fallen in love with our own conceptions of what NO IS, stand apart from it and try to view them as a wildly successful, popular band where their creative output is concerned, but with alot of negative feelings inside after years of not necessarily enjoying the WEALTH they may feel is thier due.

And for christ's sake, don't forget alchohol and substance abuse....memories of those years doesn't get erased with sobriety.

I'm just sayin.

the spat could be about anything. It's always been about "whatever".

NotAMod wrote:

john dougherty wrote: the spat could be about anything.

It's almost definitely about money and/or influence within the band.

Would be naive to think otherwise.

or who had the best Shed

Nu Ordah wrote:

NotAMod wrote:

john dougherty wrote: the spat could be about anything.

It's almost definitely about money and/or influence within the band.

Would be naive to think otherwise.

or who had the best Shed

My money's on Steve...

Snorri xxx

Snorrimon wrote:

Nu Ordah wrote:

NotAMod wrote:

john dougherty wrote: the spat could be about anything.

It's almost definitely about money and/or influence within the band.

Would be naive to think otherwise.

or who had the best Shed

My money's on Steve...

Snorri xxx

certainly the biggest to house all those tanks

Hooky's shed would have the most junk in it (by that I mean rubbish!) steve's would be the tidiest, Bernards would have a few dead groupies rotting away!

My 10 cents worth...

• The licking fingers thing goes back years. Familiarity breeds contempt.

• New Order claimed to be a democracy. Hooky has stated he is tired of compromising. Perhaps he felt he was always out-voted.

• Hooky likes gigging. As a general rule, the others don't.

• According to Hooks book 'How not to run a club', Hooky and Barney rarely socialised together. He said Barney was more with the Gin & Tonic set and has a different circle of freinds. No surprise there, I don't socialise with my workmates every weekend either.

• New Order are a business - an extremely poorly run one through to the collapse of Factory. Not everyone agrees with all business decisions. You win some, you loose some. If the balance is lost, trouble is inevitable.

• In the 'Confusion' book written about Barney, I think it was there that detailed how Barney was the primary musical force within the band. Somewhere else I remember reading how Hook felt pissed in the early days about having to drag the gear around whilst Barney was not. Don't know if this is true but plays back to the inferiority complex Hook may have. Either that or Barney was flexing his muscles within the band.

• My guess is that there was no main event for Hook leaving the band. They've worked together in the business for so long it's inevitable that sores will develop. Something would have occured that in Hooks mind was the last straw.

Bottom line for me is, who the hell knows and speculation is just that (including my 10 cents worth). I continue to enjoy the music for what it is. I am grateful for the opportunity to see both New Order & Hook live again. I NEVER would have thought I'd hear Joy Division songs played live by at least one of the original members. I got to see New Order play again in NZ (for my fourth time since 1985) last night and really enjoyed it.

Enjoy the gigs.

The difference in personalities must have some mileage, i seem to recall similar comments like 'getting annoyed with the way someone wipes their face with a napkin'... that said it's probably not only about BS and PH. Pretty sure Steve in an interview said that someone could be a 'little b*****d' without actually saying who - I always though he was talking about bernard but now I'm not so sure.

Ultimately they're all still trying to earn a living, so maybe it's just not practical to do it together. Everything in life has its season.

went through all this with pink floyd. things changed, bad happened, good happened. time healed things. many tours, some new songs , revisiting old songs , the drummer and keyboardist caught in between and slammed. fewer drugs and alcohol. more charity , more press, jamming with old stars and young stars. when the greatest band on earth is two bands , enjoy both.

suffice to say that not everything was financially equal in 1992, and changes were made to accommodate.....and there is a question for some as to whether that should still be the case

I understand, and I could be wrong, that Revenge cost Factory £250k, and Factory offset this against royalties that they owed Electronic. Which meant BS had a quarter of a million wiped off his income by Factory as Revenge didn't make any money.

The London deal meant that each member was paid outstanding royalties, such as this £250k.

Tim wrote: suffice to say that not everything was financially equal in 1992, and changes were made to accommodate.....and there is a question for some as to whether that should still be the case

Interesting. So are you referring to Hooky not being happy with Steve/Gillian (perhaps Gillians) financial equity because he believes she hasn't contributed? Or that Barney used to take a bigger slice of the pie which was corrected and now irks him?

mark reed wrote: I understand, and I could be wrong, that Revenge cost Factory £250k, and Factory offset this against royalties that they owed Electronic. Which meant BS had a quarter of a million wiped off his income by Factory as Revenge didn't make any money.

The London deal meant that each member was paid outstanding royalties, such as this £250k.

which would have been ideal had everyone walked away happy and without feelings that partner x had gained 250k from partner y. alas that wasn't the case, and so it began.

Hooky Bass Monster wrote:

Tim wrote: suffice to say that not everything was financially equal in 1992, and changes were made to accommodate.....and there is a question for some as to whether that should still be the case

Interesting. So are you referring to Hooky not being happy with Steve/Gillian (perhaps Gillians) financial equity because he believes she hasn't contributed? Or that Barney used to take a bigger slice of the pie which was corrected and now irks him?

Neither. I understand that publishing rights were renegotiated following the demise of Factory, so that Bernard received slightly more of the pot as compensation for losing £250k when Factory when tits up. However, he has effectively had rather more than £250k's worth of additional publishing revenues, to the extent that Hooky has been losing out for years, and attempts to get this rerenegotiated in 2006-7 went extremely badly, terminally.

I appreciate that some bands share everything equally but generally its the songwriter that gets more isn't it?

Tim wrote:

Hooky Bass Monster wrote:

Tim wrote: suffice to say that not everything was financially equal in 1992, and changes were made to accommodate.....and there is a question for some as to whether that should still be the case

Interesting. So are you referring to Hooky not being happy with Steve/Gillian (perhaps Gillians) financial equity because he believes she hasn't contributed? Or that Barney used to take a bigger slice of the pie which was corrected and now irks him?

Neither. I understand that publishing rights were renegotiated following the demise of Factory, so that Bernard received slightly more of the pot as compensation for losing £250k when Factory when tits up. However, he has effectively had rather more than £250k's worth of additional publishing revenues, to the extent that Hooky has been losing out for years, and attempts to get this rerenegotiated in 2006-7 went extremely badly, terminally.