Hooky Vs. New Order Now: Let's set things straight.

Now this is getting interesting & informative - merci.

I find it hard to have much sympathy for Hooky though, after recent shenanigans. I'm not happy to say that either, as Hooky was a hero of mine for many years.

I think the suggestion "when the greatest band on earth become two bands, enjoy both" is certainly good advice - even if I can't follow it for now.

I think it is in the Mick Middles book "From Joy Division To New Order", that the London deal included an overall payment of £1m to New Order, as a whole, in owed royalties. How it was divided up between the respective members is not made clear.

I appreciate that some bands share everything equally but generally its the songwriter that gets more isn't it?

two different types of royalties in terms of records, performance and songwriting.

performance royalties (tv,radio,internet) are divided up on the basis of who played what instrument or sang vocals on particular tracks but most bands divide these royalties equally in the band on an album by album basis regardless because it saves arguing about lack of vocals or instruments for every track.

songwriters earn more if the song is covered by other bands or used in ads from licensing fees or percentage of sales.

my experience in my group is to document everything and credit people for work they have done, saves a lot of hassle and resentment and it encourages creativity.

the way new order and factory went about their business would have made engels very happy but it didnt work that well for him and others of his ilk.

mark reed wrote: I think it is in the Mick Middles book "From Joy Division To New Order", that the London deal included an overall payment of £1m to New Order, as a whole, in owed royalties. How it was divided up between the respective members is not made clear.

10-15 percent for rob anyway im sure.

Didn't the HMRC go bonkers over the somewhat haphazard way Factory ran its accounts?

586 wrote: personally , i couldnt give a shit really,new order in whatever form are touring (great news), the light are touring the jd stuff, and from recent news previewd some movement tracks (looking forward to that. so in a roundabout way as fans we have benefited from it all. however!!! i think ryan is spot on the money when he thinks that one particular event sparked this all off, they have been getting on each others tits for years lets face it,and they have sounded like a pair of moaning old gits at best for years, but have still managed to keep their shit together for the greater good of the band. what went on, i dont know, but my guess is it happened in brazil,when you trace the lineage back, hooky came off that tour stating that "some people dont know what they have until its gone" i thought at the time that it was aimed at bernard and wondered if there was trouble at the mill. so if you get to meet em ryan, push the bastards on "the brazil incident" when it all comes out in the wash, and it will id put money on a major fall out in brazil,which has took on a life of its own since and neither party is able to swallow their pride and throw on the brakes.

I reckon this, too.

The part that gets me the most is what I pointed out in the first post: the on again/off again nature of it all. Hooky has been, at some points, absolutely VENOMOUS towards the other guys, then suddenly extremely endearing and even nostalgic towards them. It's almost as if that "one incident," whatever it may be -- and which we can admit did happen, given what Barney said that one time in an interview but didn't elaborate upon, relating to Brazil -- is a scab that keeps getting re-opened, and when it's thought about at certain points in time all of the well wishes and positive sentiments seem to vanish until the thought has passed once again. What happened, did Hooky eat Barney's cherished bloody crumpet?!

Sometimes it seems like Hooky is keen to get back, is very complimentary, then the opposite occurs. I'm just trying to take in all the facts and think of a way to go about posing the question respectfully, since I will be going to the Q&A with Hooky in April, but don't want to seem like a prying twat.

When I met him in 2010 I said, in passing, "so how are things with Bernard?" and he just laughed and shook his head.

Ryan wrote:

586 wrote: personally , i couldnt give a *** really,new order in whatever form are touring (great news), the light are touring the jd stuff, and from recent news previewd some movement tracks (looking forward to that. so in a roundabout way as fans we have benefited from it all. however!!! i think ryan is spot on the money when he thinks that one particular event sparked this all off, they have been getting on each others *** for years lets face it,and they have sounded like a pair of moaning old gits at best for years, but have still managed to keep their *** together for the greater good of the band. what went on, i dont know, but my guess is it happened in brazil,when you trace the lineage back, hooky came off that tour stating that "some people dont know what they have until its gone" i thought at the time that it was aimed at bernard and wondered if there was trouble at the mill. so if you get to meet em ryan, push the bastards on "the brazil incident" when it all comes out in the wash, and it will id put money on a major fall out in brazil,which has took on a life of its own since and neither party is able to swallow their pride and throw on the brakes.

I reckon this, too.

The part that gets me the most is what I pointed out in the first post: the on again/off again nature of it all. Hooky has been, at some points, absolutely VENOMOUS towards the other guys, then suddenly extremely endearing and even nostalgic towards them. It's almost as if that "one incident," whatever it may be -- and which we can admit did happen, given what Barney said that one time in an interview but didn't elaborate upon, relating to Brazil -- is a scab that keeps getting re-opened, and when it's thought about at certain points in time all of the well wishes and positive sentiments seem to vanish until the thought has passed once again. What happened, did Hooky eat Barney's cherished bloody crumpet?!

Sometimes it seems like Hooky is keen to get back, is very complimentary, then the opposite occurs. I'm just trying to take in all the facts and think of a way to go about posing the question respectfully, since I will be going to the Q&A with Hooky in April, but don't want to seem like a prying twat.

When I met him in 2010 I said, in passing, "so how are things with Bernard?" and he just laughed and shook his head.

In my humble opinion, this is a personal matter that he is not likely to discuss with a stranger. I think it would be verging on rude to ask. At the end of the day, it is none of our business. It would be a bit like asking someone how much they get paid. When I met Hooky 18 months ago back stage I asked him face to face 'any chance of getting back together with New Order' and his response was 'next question'. In all other respects he was talkative and affable - evening offering the cake they had to celebrate Dianne Barton's birthday.

As an aside, I also witnessed a personal moment between Nat Wasson & Hook when after the show they embraced after Hook thanked Nat for his contribution and Nat said 'I know this means a lot to you'. I've not taken sides on the whole conflict or Hook's motives, but there is clearly a genuine desire by Hooky to play the material.

The whole sorry episode reads much like our nation's current political high farce, doesn't it. New Order = The Australian Labour Party (with tunes)

Maybe its global warming....

haha yeah, bit like that.

I doubt I'd ask anything directly. It's just that they're all such nice blokes, and such nice sentiments have been passed around among all the crap that's been said that it tends to get overlooked in comparison to the bad words.

In any case, I'm seeing NO twice, then Hooky twice, so I can't complain. The main thing is we got a nice in-depth convo going on here. :)

So the reason is very simply "Money".

Barney does deserve more seeing as he writes all the lyrics and a good chunk of the melodies.

No-one on this post has mentioned alcohol yet.

Hooky has mentioned on more than one occasion that he gave up the booze since the split but was thoroughly addicted at the time.

The 'brazil incident' if there was one could have been something simple that combined with severe alcoholism may have blown up into a blazing row that is too embarrassing to u-turn on six months later.

I mentioned before on here that Craig Gill (Inspiral Carpets) told me last year that Hooky told him that the issue was relative share of money based on his contribution, on the basis that Bernard wrote the majority of the material for WFTSC. And this fits perfectly with Hooky's comments elsewhere that the songwriting for WFTSC was just his bass tacked onto already-written songs "just like Republic again" whereas Get Ready was more like the old days.

A cocktail of this scenario and alcohol addiction would certainly produce the effects that we have seen in recent years.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter, or shouldn't matter, to anyone not personally involved in their lives.

In any case, I've my tickets for both Hooky and New Order who are both playing in Dublin this June. And I'm going to have a bloody good time.

Seeing as this thread is titled Let's set things straight: Before this absurd speculation gets completely out of hand let me just say regarding that post above that during the South American tour in 2006 Hooky was not drinking. Please kill the wild speculation.

[orange]Jack[/orange] wrote: Seeing as this thread is titled Let's set things straight: Before this absurd speculation gets completely out of hand let me just say regarding that post above that during the South American tour in 2006 Hooky was not drinking. Please kill the wild speculation.

Hello Jack - thanks for the clarification.

I remember your dad said that around the time of Sirens, he was a little too familiar with the hooch to stand up to Bernard and it was only later that he gave up, found himself and determined what he wanted to do. The timing of him changing course isn't abundantly clear but it hardly amounts to *wild* speculation to suppose it might have been after the SA tour.

In any event, now we have Camp Hook's line on this single aspect of the monumental train-wreck that is modern day Neworder/Hooky relations.

I can confirm personally that Hooky was not drinking in 2006, having promoted a gig in which his only rider requirement was Lipton's Iced Tea and bottled water. Drink, excesses of or effects, have no relevance to any of the discussion in this thread. We wouldn't want to start on pills volume per lyric forgotten etc.

Hooky hasn't drunk for years, not at the time of recording sirens, he does have dry drunk syndrome though, which makes you prove that you don't need booze to have a good time, and seeing him on stage several times over the last few years, he clearly is having a bloody good time.

Now what we really need is a tour with Hooky & The Light and New Order, then we can watch JD & NO in one go! that'd be a great night out!

[orange]Jack[/orange] wrote: Seeing as this thread is titled Let's set things straight: Before this absurd speculation gets completely out of hand let me just say regarding that post above that during the South American tour in 2006 Hooky was not drinking. Please kill the wild speculation.

Sincere apologies Jack for getting this wrong on the drinking side, I have obviously got the timeline wrong and therefore made assumptions which I should not have.

Leaving the alcohol argument aside, the rest of what I have said in this post still seems to make sense to me, however I am simply reporting what others have said, and am always happy to stand corrected if need be.

Brian Hyphen wrote:

[orange]Jack[/orange] wrote: Seeing as this thread is titled Let's set things straight: Before this absurd speculation gets completely out of hand let me just say regarding that post above that during the South American tour in 2006 Hooky was not drinking. Please kill the wild speculation.

Sincere apologies Jack for getting this wrong on the drinking side, I have obviously got the timeline wrong and therefore made assumptions which I should not have.

Leaving the alcohol argument aside, the rest of what I have said in this post still seems to make sense to me, however I am simply reporting what others have said, and am always happy to stand corrected if need be.

I saw Hooky djing in Cork in 2005 and he seemed the most sober person there. But as regards the South American tour of 2006, being the one person in a group so far from home who is not drinking could make that person the odd one out and could itself lead to discord and resentment on all sides, I admire him for being sober nowadays and I reckon he's been energised since he stopped drinking, a fact evidenced by how busy he has been touring the world with The Light.

Parts of a July 2011 New Order article from MOJO have new relevance:

Relations between bandmembers are not at their best, it seems, possibly due to Hook's unilateral decision to play Joy Division's albums live with his new outfit, The Light. There's also the perplexing reports of Hooky re-recording Joy Division's hymnal Atmosphere with Rowetta Satchell, former Happy Mondays singer and 2004 contestant on ITV's The X Factor.

Hook, who sang Movement tracks Dreams Never End and Doubts Even Here, still seems irked at Sumner's exclusive assumption of the vocalist's role, and notes that initially all three members sang on debut 45 Ceremony. When this is put to Morris, he shifts in his seat. "We had 'the Ceremony singing contest', in Strawberry," he says. "It was like X Factor with Martin and Rob as Simon Cowell. It was fair, you didn't have to play, you just had to sing a verse. I sounded like Al Jolson and got knocked out early on. Then it was the showdown between Hooky and Bernard — and Bernard won!"

"I think," adds Gillian, "Hooky would have loved to have been the singer."

It would have been nice if everyone had patched things up and the Joy Division retrospective shows included Barney and Stephen if they were so inclined, but it was just as controversial at the time for Hooky to take it on the road as it is for New Order to play shows without him now. He definitely cast the first stone, and doesn't seem to credit the impact of his actions in creating an opposing reaction.

That said, I find his vocals to be truer to the spirit of Joy Division than Barney's. I'm really glad that he released the demo and new version of Pictures In My Mind, but recording Rowetta's vocals on JD songs was in bad taste IMHO (which is why I'm also glad he released instrumental versions). I'm sure the rest of the band were just as aghast about that as Hooky is with their use of the name New Order.

I suspect that Hooky singing early NO songs is a bit of wish fulfillment on his part, a taste of an alternate reality where he won the showdown. In spite of all the negativity though, I agree with everyone who thinks that having 2 factions representing their past glories is still a great outcome for fans. The upside of things for Hooky is that he'll soon be seeing sharply increased back catalogue royalties, and more people will be interested in checking out The Light :)

Rowetta's version of Insight is great! I can't listen to her version of Atmosphere though.

Agree that PH sounds far better than BS singing Joy Division songs live. Really wish that PH and GM had sung on more New Order tunes, especially when it comes to live shows; the Bad Lieutenant live show was ace with singing duties shared - BS sounded so much better/fresher.

First stone thrown? Probably not relevant - it was all going to get messy no matter what. You can see why the remaining members would want to "make something of their legacy" themselves with Hooky doing all the JD and Hacienda stuff. Remember that Bad Lieutenant were already mixing NO and JD songs into their set though.

Rowetta a better singer? technically, yes. But I don't want a technical singer, I want one who sounds right for the material.

Rowetta singing is the same as having Heather Bloody Smalls from M People singing on a note-by-note recreation of Velvet Underground & Nico with John Cale (that isn't, by the way happening, but imagine the derision if it did). A bad idea.

I think Rowetta sounds fucking terrible singing the JD songs. So bad, it's the first Peter Hook record in 35 years I haven't bought. She's not a bad singer, but her voice just does not suit the songs.

Joy Division are no more long live New Order :)

Ryan wrote: Right then,

Right now it's 1:46 am, humid as all hell and I can't sleep, and with impending New Order gigs (and the potential to pose some questions to the band), along with seeing Hooky again in April, I thought I'd share my thoughts from everything I've seen and read since 2007.

I rarely, if ever, comment upon the whole debacle; I like New Order, I like Hooky, I like Bad Lieutenant, and their personal affairs don't really matter to me, but given the facts of future events just around the corner, I think it's worth having a little think about. For me personally at least.

From what I've gathered (and I'm taking all of this from memory from a vast array of very public interviews posted over the last few years), it started out with Hooky leaving the band. Then we had comments by Bernard saying that it was like a marriage gone sour; things like Hooky "licking his fingers after eating potato chips while having his hands on the steering wheel of the car," and things like that gave him the shits.

Then we hear comments from Hooky saying things like how he really liked Bad Lieutenant and wished Bernard and the other guys all the best. Then, weeks later, stating that he would fuck them over in any way he possibly could.

Then we hear comments from Hooky saying that "it's a real shame," given their legacy and history, while in other moments he has made comments that make him sound entirely relieved to be away from any of the ex-bandmates and is looking to the future (back then, to Freebass, etc).

So, really, all of this constant, CONSTANT hot/cold/hot/cold/hot/cold leads me to believe that it all really did boil down to one specific event or incident... something which I recall Bernard hinting at in one of the many interviews at one point but never elaborating upon.

So, can we pinpoint what it might be? In one vein we hear solemn regret and well-wishes from Hooky towards Bernard and co., even to Bad Lieutenant, and then the next it's all about lawyers and not being invited to play as New Order. Yet, he goes out and plays Joy Division material.

So, coming from the most rational and well-read perspective that I can, I'm really trying to determine what all this initially stemmed from. What one thing happened for all of this hypocrisy to take place? Hooky was happy to help out in getting the Lost Sirens' released, and that new compilation with Hellbent on it, AND the (albeit shitty) Rhino remasters. So there are good spirits there. There have been good spirits everywhere, in fact, until a week or so later the dissing resumes (i.e. towards Gillian), and the shit hits the fan once again. Then weeks later, based upon precedent, things seem far more mature and level-headed again, and Hooky is once more praising Bernard and co. in a roundabout way, although sometimes even directly.

So having said all that (and please read it all before commenting; I rarely make long posts on here, and I feel this is all very relevant given the fact that they'll all be here in the next two months)... what do you think it all boiled down to? What's with the total hostility - back to being civil - back to hostile attitude?

Please let me reiterate that I adore all members of the band and am in no position nor want to diss any particular member. This is all out of sheer curiosity because of the vast amounts of different testimonies I've read from all parties involved. It's really quite fascinating actually; if you piece it all together, none of it all really makes sense. That's why I feel like it all comes down to some old, fleeting incident that left a bad taste, and instead of addressing it directly it's all become this big massive pile of redundant shit that means nothing, and nothing but well wishes are what truly lie beneath the surface of it all. Either that, or it's one hell of a publicity stunt.

Replies thoroughly welcomed and encouraged!

I'll end on a lyric: "Where will it end?"

I think eventually they'll get over it. NO mark 3 is going to tour for a bit, maybe do some recording and eventually Hooky will return.

In regards to what someone said about Hooky being the frontman, I think it would be ideal if he sang JD songs in the event that he did reunite with NO.

I'm sorry I really can't deal with Hooky grunting his way through those JD songs.

If Bernard could just cut out the whoops his vocal on Atmosphere would be ace.

as i said Joy Division is no more long live Nu Ordah

Rowetta singing JD songs?

What the fucking hell next?

Anastacia covering Ceremony?

Leona Lewis to do Crystal?

Bernard to do a cover of the Bodyform commercial???

Cameron wrote:

Ryan wrote: Right then,

Right now it's 1:46 am, humid as all hell and I can't sleep, and with impending New Order gigs (and the potential to pose some questions to the band), along with seeing Hooky again in April, I thought I'd share my thoughts from everything I've seen and read since 2007.

I rarely, if ever, comment upon the whole debacle; I like New Order, I like Hooky, I like Bad Lieutenant, and their personal affairs don't really matter to me, but given the facts of future events just around the corner, I think it's worth having a little think about. For me personally at least.

From what I've gathered (and I'm taking all of this from memory from a vast array of very public interviews posted over the last few years), it started out with Hooky leaving the band. Then we had comments by Bernard saying that it was like a marriage gone sour; things like Hooky "licking his fingers after eating potato chips while having his hands on the steering wheel of the car," and things like that gave him the shits.

Then we hear comments from Hooky saying things like how he really liked Bad Lieutenant and wished Bernard and the other guys all the best. Then, weeks later, stating that he would fuck them over in any way he possibly could.

Then we hear comments from Hooky saying that "it's a real shame," given their legacy and history, while in other moments he has made comments that make him sound entirely relieved to be away from any of the ex-bandmates and is looking to the future (back then, to Freebass, etc).

So, really, all of this constant, CONSTANT hot/cold/hot/cold/hot/cold leads me to believe that it all really did boil down to one specific event or incident... something which I recall Bernard hinting at in one of the many interviews at one point but never elaborating upon.

So, can we pinpoint what it might be? In one vein we hear solemn regret and well-wishes from Hooky towards Bernard and co., even to Bad Lieutenant, and then the next it's all about lawyers and not being invited to play as New Order. Yet, he goes out and plays Joy Division material.

So, coming from the most rational and well-read perspective that I can, I'm really trying to determine what all this initially stemmed from. What one thing happened for all of this hypocrisy to take place? Hooky was happy to help out in getting the Lost Sirens' released, and that new compilation with Hellbent on it, AND the (albeit shitty) Rhino remasters. So there are good spirits there. There have been good spirits everywhere, in fact, until a week or so later the dissing resumes (i.e. towards Gillian), and the shit hits the fan once again. Then weeks later, based upon precedent, things seem far more mature and level-headed again, and Hooky is once more praising Bernard and co. in a roundabout way, although sometimes even directly.

So having said all that (and please read it all before commenting; I rarely make long posts on here, and I feel this is all very relevant given the fact that they'll all be here in the next two months)... what do you think it all boiled down to? What's with the total hostility - back to being civil - back to hostile attitude?

Please let me reiterate that I adore all members of the band and am in no position nor want to diss any particular member. This is all out of sheer curiosity because of the vast amounts of different testimonies I've read from all parties involved. It's really quite fascinating actually; if you piece it all together, none of it all really makes sense. That's why I feel like it all comes down to some old, fleeting incident that left a bad taste, and instead of addressing it directly it's all become this big massive pile of redundant shit that means nothing, and nothing but well wishes are what truly lie beneath the surface of it all. Either that, or it's one hell of a publicity stunt.

Replies thoroughly welcomed and encouraged!

I'll end on a lyric: "Where will it end?"

I think eventually they'll get over it. NO mark 3 is going to tour for a bit, maybe do some recording and eventually Hooky will return.

In regards to what someone said about Hooky being the frontman, I think it would be ideal if he sang JD songs in the event that he did reunite with NO.

That would be a fantastic compromise.

He pulls off Day of the Lords fucking ace.

Ryan wrote:

Cameron wrote:

Ryan wrote: Right then,

Right now it's 1:46 am, humid as all hell and I can't sleep, and with impending New Order gigs (and the potential to pose some questions to the band), along with seeing Hooky again in April, I thought I'd share my thoughts from everything I've seen and read since 2007.

I rarely, if ever, comment upon the whole debacle; I like New Order, I like Hooky, I like Bad Lieutenant, and their personal affairs don't really matter to me, but given the facts of future events just around the corner, I think it's worth having a little think about. For me personally at least.

From what I've gathered (and I'm taking all of this from memory from a vast array of very public interviews posted over the last few years), it started out with Hooky leaving the band. Then we had comments by Bernard saying that it was like a marriage gone sour; things like Hooky "licking his fingers after eating potato chips while having his hands on the steering wheel of the car," and things like that gave him the shits.

Then we hear comments from Hooky saying things like how he really liked Bad Lieutenant and wished Bernard and the other guys all the best. Then, weeks later, stating that he would fuck them over in any way he possibly could.

Then we hear comments from Hooky saying that "it's a real shame," given their legacy and history, while in other moments he has made comments that make him sound entirely relieved to be away from any of the ex-bandmates and is looking to the future (back then, to Freebass, etc).

So, really, all of this constant, CONSTANT hot/cold/hot/cold/hot/cold leads me to believe that it all really did boil down to one specific event or incident... something which I recall Bernard hinting at in one of the many interviews at one point but never elaborating upon.

So, can we pinpoint what it might be? In one vein we hear solemn regret and well-wishes from Hooky towards Bernard and co., even to Bad Lieutenant, and then the next it's all about lawyers and not being invited to play as New Order. Yet, he goes out and plays Joy Division material.

So, coming from the most rational and well-read perspective that I can, I'm really trying to determine what all this initially stemmed from. What one thing happened for all of this hypocrisy to take place? Hooky was happy to help out in getting the Lost Sirens' released, and that new compilation with Hellbent on it, AND the (albeit shitty) Rhino remasters. So there are good spirits there. There have been good spirits everywhere, in fact, until a week or so later the dissing resumes (i.e. towards Gillian), and the shit hits the fan once again. Then weeks later, based upon precedent, things seem far more mature and level-headed again, and Hooky is once more praising Bernard and co. in a roundabout way, although sometimes even directly.

So having said all that (and please read it all before commenting; I rarely make long posts on here, and I feel this is all very relevant given the fact that they'll all be here in the next two months)... what do you think it all boiled down to? What's with the total hostility - back to being civil - back to hostile attitude?

Please let me reiterate that I adore all members of the band and am in no position nor want to diss any particular member. This is all out of sheer curiosity because of the vast amounts of different testimonies I've read from all parties involved. It's really quite fascinating actually; if you piece it all together, none of it all really makes sense. That's why I feel like it all comes down to some old, fleeting incident that left a bad taste, and instead of addressing it directly it's all become this big massive pile of redundant shit that means nothing, and nothing but well wishes are what truly lie beneath the surface of it all. Either that, or it's one hell of a publicity stunt.

Replies thoroughly welcomed and encouraged!

I'll end on a lyric: "Where will it end?"

I think eventually they'll get over it. NO mark 3 is going to tour for a bit, maybe do some recording and eventually Hooky will return.

In regards to what someone said about Hooky being the frontman, I think it would be ideal if he sang JD songs in the event that he did reunite with NO.

That would be a fantastic compromise.

He pulls off Day of the Lords fucking ace.

It's actually weird - I recorded all of that gig in 2010 (it's all on my YouTube account) and I thought he sounded amazing -- even almost exactly like Ian - in quite a few songs. Then some of the recent gigs I've seen on YouTube, like Doubts Even Here and Dreams Never End, he's sounded a lot less confident than he did in 2010. I thought over time the opposite would have occurred.

Or maybe it's just that The Enmore is amazing, and so is Sydney, so it gave him that extra oomph, and will do so again in April. ;-)

I def think Hooky is more suited to sing JD songs, nothing against Barneý but Hooky can sing more like Ian while all New Order (of course except DNE) will need Barney's excellent vocals...or Pottsy? oops..

Cameron wrote:

I think eventually they'll get over it. NO mark 3 is going to tour for a bit, maybe do some recording and eventually Hooky will return.

I'm not too optimistic about the possibilty of Hooky returning. Maybe that is just me that thinks that.