Mapping the (hopefully!) forthcoming Definitive Editions... Part 1 - PC&L

50poundnote wrote:

perspexorange wrote: this legendary gig

For those of us who don't know, what makes this gig legendary?

I'm amazed anyone can recall details from a gig they performed 37 years ago when they're performed thousands of gigs since.

Well yeah, but I can remember details from the recording of the gig even though I haven’t listened to it for ages and have listened to hundreds of other New Order gig recordings over the years. I can recall the exact way Barney says “ Do you really want us to play Everything’s Gone Green? Alright we’ll play it” and the fact he lists Ian Curtis among the band members roll call towards the end of Ceremony. I’m not sure I’d describe the gig as legendary but there is something about that particular gig. Well for me anyway , even though I wasn’t even there! It’s just stuck in my memory

It's a pretty well known gig.

It was in a hotel, which kind of makes it pretty unique. Also, Kilkenny is a pretty small place (population of 25k, apparently) and certainly wasn't used to hosting a band of such stature.

The band were in a playful mood. Plenty of Barneyisms. Pretty intimate gig, with the audience almost on top of the band.

But it's probably reached 'legendary' status mainly because the BBC broadcast it a couple of times. So, pretty much every fan, certainly in the UK, had a bootleg of this gig back in the 80s.

So that's why everyone 'remembers' it 37 years later. They've all heard the tape! Probably multiple times.

Here's the write-up, if you're interested:

https://www.new-order.net/no/gigs/nogigs83.html#NO-830424

Just to give you an idea as to how 'intimate' the gig was.

Listening to that radio interview broadcast an hour or so ago, they interviewed a few of the punters who were there. They couldn't quite believe that New Order, were standing in front of them.

Missed the Steve interview so will see if there's a catch up option on KCLR's website.

Barney's "Straight from top of the pops!" towards the end of Ceremony was in reference to the gig flyer where the promoter had printed that same line .I thought i had the image of the flyer somewhere but cannot now find to post.

I also have a radio interview they did with a local Irish radio station (maybe that was the same station?) the night before the gig, about 20 mins.

Fotz wrote: the fact he lists Ian Curtis among the band members roll call towards the end of Ceremony.

[TWITTER]1260182217851994120[/TWITTER]

Fotz wrote: Missed the Steve interview so will see if there's a catch up option on KCLR's website.

I screen-grabbed it in case I couldn't download it to keep. If you can't get to listen to later, just drop me a PM / email and I'll send it to you. Pretty good. The whole thing lasted for about an hour.

Fotz wrote: I also have a radio interview they did with a local Irish radio station (maybe that was the same station?) the night before the gig, about 20 mins.

Yep, me too. They make reference to it in the above programme.

Fotz wrote: Barney's "Straight from top of the pops!" towards the end of Ceremony was in reference to the gig flyer where the promoter had printed that same line .I thought i had the image of the flyer somewhere but cannot now find to post.

[TWITTER]1260182217851994120[/TWITTER]

You can kind of see it in the Twitter post above, but not in any detail. Looks like I have it in my archives though:

In A Lonely Place was played at Kilkenny but omitted from the Radio 1 broadcast and seemingly the upcoming DVD in the box set.Never knew why.An audience recording is slotted into some bootlegs.

In the radio programme today, Steve mentioned that the BBC didn't record it. He said that the band recorded it themselves.

A short while after, the BBC approached the band, wanting to record them live in concert. Steve said that they responded to say that they already had a tape of the Kilkenny show, so let them have a copy of that recording.

He also separately mentioned that, in 1981, he bought portable video equipment, with the intention to 'rope in' friends or colleagues of the band to film some of their gigs. This is what happened in the case of Kilkenny. Someone standing to the side of the stage with a single camera.

Putting these two facts together, I'm wondering whether the band either lent the BBC the video tape or took an audio recording from that video themselves. If, for whatever reason, In A Lonely Place wasn't filmed, this would explain why it's missing from both the video and the audio.

But, thinking about it, would the audio from a handheld video camera be good enough for the BBC to use?

Ah, so 'Writing Sessions' on the upcoming box set are rough early instrumental versions before lyrics were written.

Good interview that and the interviewer knows his New Order stuff which is always a relief.

perspexorange wrote: Putting these two facts together, I'm wondering whether the band either lent the BBC the video tape or took an audio recording from that video themselves. If, for whatever reason, In A Lonely Place wasn't filmed, this would explain why it's missing from both the video and the audio.

Tape flip.

perspexorange wrote: But, thinking about it, would the audio from a handheld video camera be good enough for the BBC to use?

No.

It’s certainly possible that it might be a ‘tape flip’. Track 7, so seems possible.

Just seems strange that both the video and the audio would be missing the same track.

I’m not sure what equipment was used to video the gig, but would there be a tape flip on a video recording? I always think of this sort of equipment as using standard VHS tapes (the one I rented in the late 80s used standard VHS tapes). I will admit my knowledge on this sort of technology is severely lacking though.

Maybe Johnny James will be able to tell us the reason for In A Lonely Place not being on either the forthcoming DVD or the BBC radio broadcast.

The audio from a 1983 camcorder would not be good enough to use. Is IALP truly missing from the videotape, or simply not broadcast quality (i.e. no soundboard recording to comp it with)?

It was only many years after the Radio 1 broadcast that i found out that IALP had been played but omitted.One reason i wondered was that maybe the song was deemed too dark and depressing for Radio and also it would have taken the programme over the 1 hour time slot.The radio broadcast without IALP makes it a neat 1 hour which i assume Radio 1 wanted to fit in their schedule, or 56 minutes or so allowing 4 minutes for the news at the start of that hour.But that doesn't explain the omission from the DVD.The other thing is from what i've read on bootleg notes is that it wasn't the best of performances of the song , maybe played too fast so the band decided to cut it out.I did listen to an audience recording of it once but can't recall if it was a bad one or not.And yeah there's also the possibility of tape flip.Maybe a combination of all of the above.

perspexorange wrote: It’s certainly possible that it might be a ‘tape flip’. Track 7, so seems possible.

Just seems strange that both the video and the audio would be missing the same track.

I’m not sure what equipment was used to video the gig, but would there be a tape flip on a video recording? I always think of this sort of equipment as using standard VHS tapes (the one I rented in the late 80s used standard VHS tapes). I will admit my knowledge on this sort of technology is severely lacking though.

Maybe Johnny James will be able to tell us the reason for In A Lonely Place not being on either the forthcoming DVD or the BBC radio broadcast.

It wasn't played. There's no break in the video between Confusion and Age Of Consent, no sign whatsoever that another track was there.

IALP wasn't played at Kilkenny? OK, now i'm confused.

Thanks Johnny.

It must be then that someone inserted IALP into the bootleg, thinking that it was from the gig. When it wasn’t.

Odd.

Actually, this makes a certain amount of sense now.

I have several different copies of the Soundboard, all taken from the radio broadcast. Only one of these has IALP inserted into it. Apart from that one track, I’ve never heard of an ‘audience’ version of the gig, i.e. I don’t have a complete ‘audience’ bootleg of the whole gig, from which IALP was taken from.

It therefore seems possible that this track was actually taken from an ‘audience’ recording of a different gig.

perspexorange wrote: Thanks Johnny.

It must be then that someone inserted IALP into the bootleg, thinking that it was from the gig. When it wasn’t.

Odd.

Yep, i'm also now thinking that's what's happened.Does seem to make sense now.Looking at the setlist, if IALP had been in there it seems an odd place and a drastic change of mood to play it somewhere between the gig's euphoric climax of Confusion, AOC,BM, EGG and Ceremony.So all those setlists over the years that have listed IALP are wrong.Well well well.

Fotz wrote:

perspexorange wrote: Thanks Johnny.

It must be then that someone inserted IALP into the bootleg, thinking that it was from the gig. When it wasn’t.

Odd.

Yep, i'm also now thinking that's what's happened.Does seem to make sense now.Looking at the setlist, if IALP had been in there it seems an odd place and a drastic change of mood to play it somewhere between the gig's euphoric climax of Confusion, AOC,BM, EGG and Ceremony.So all those setlists over the years that have listed IALP are wrong.Well well well.

I'm sure it wouldn't have stopped them playing it at any point in the gig back then. However, on this occasion they didn't. Another reference is Dec's Heaven to Heaven book that also makes no mention of it in the set. He probably also taped the gig.

Johnny James wrote: Another reference is Dec's Heaven to Heaven book that also makes no mention of it in the set. He probably also taped the gig.

I didn't think to check this.

That book is superb! One of my favourite New Order items I own.

Yeah - it seems likely that Dec taped this.

Johnny James wrote: I'm sure it wouldn't have stopped them playing it at any point in the gig back then. However, on this occasion they didn't. Another reference is Dec's Heaven to Heaven book that also makes no mention of it in the set. He probably also taped the gig.

A friend with an extensive catalog of recordings was able to track it down to a cassette from 2001 where someone erroneously stuck it on the end of side one of a tape to fill up blank space. He's now trying to identify what gig it actually came from.

Ah, makes sense. So it's 'filler' added to the end of one side of the tape. Mystery (partially) solved.

The x4 re-released singles are actually now available on Amazon but more expensive than NO store at £11.99 each.

perspexorange wrote: Ah, makes sense. So it's 'filler' added to the end of one side of the tape. Mystery (partially) solved.

Someone needs to update the gig's listing on Setlist.fm now then!

Fotz wrote: The x4 re-released singles are actually now available on Amazon but more expensive than NO store at £11.99 each.

Looks like we made the right choice in buying from the NO Store then, Fotz.

A saving of over £20 (£155.95 on Amazon, compared to £135 on the Store, for the complete bundle).

50poundnote wrote:

Johnny James wrote: I'm sure it wouldn't have stopped them playing it at any point in the gig back then. However, on this occasion they didn't. Another reference is Dec's Heaven to Heaven book that also makes no mention of it in the set. He probably also taped the gig.

A friend with an extensive catalog of recordings was able to track it down to a cassette from 2001 where someone erroneously stuck it on the end of side one of a tape to fill up blank space. He's now trying to identify what gig it actually came from.

Not just any friend, mind you. Haven't posted here in years....

Thanks all for spotting this. This was literally my fault, actually...so nigh-on 20 years on, I'm correcting it.

Here's a write-up, which includes this audience version of IALP, obviously from Bournemouth 1983/12-02, as spotted by a cohort! https://www.tapefiller.org/2020/08/fllr-016-new-order-tapes-part-10.html

I can fix setlist.fm, too. Done. https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/new-order/1983/rose-hill-hotel-kilkenny-ireland-63d7c62f.html

Who's going to fix the NOOL "concert browser"? 😈 http://www.neworderonline.com/live/Concert.aspx?ConcertID=220

---Sam

Nice to see you here, Sam.

Thanks for getting to the bottom of this.

Mr Discography wrote:

perspexorange wrote: Ah, makes sense. So it's 'filler' added to the end of one side of the tape. Mystery (partially) solved.

Someone needs to update the gig's listing on Setlist.fm now then!

I've corrected the listing and cited my own article that discusses what went awry in detail.

50poundnote wrote:

Johnny James wrote: I'm sure it wouldn't have stopped them playing it at any point in the gig back then. However, on this occasion they didn't. Another reference is Dec's Heaven to Heaven book that also makes no mention of it in the set. He probably also taped the gig.

A friend with an extensive catalog of recordings was able to track it down to a cassette from 2001 where someone erroneously stuck it on the end of side one of a tape to fill up blank space. He's now trying to identify what gig it actually came from.

To clarify...

The error was introduced in late November 2001 when it was assumed to be a genuine addition to the gigography.

The cassette itself is much older than 2001. The particular Maxell UDS-II insert/cassette design dates from 1986 or so.

As for trying to identify where this is from...haven't managed that yet. Suspect it's from another '83 show.

UPDATE: looks like a cohort has identified it as being from Bournemouth 1983-12-02!