Mapping the (hopefully!) forthcoming Definitive Editions... Part 1 - PC&L

I agree the box set thing is wonderful, it’s just substance Box set interests me the least. It’s a compilation so there can’t be any unreleased stuff or different versions as that will be covered on the other box sets. Don’t get mevwrong I lovecsubstance it’s an Incredibly important album in my liffe, just not sure what a box set will add. But I admit will look great with all the others!

The Shadow wrote: For the lowlife box set can we please have the 17 minute version of Elegia on vinyl please Mr Johnny James?

The only version on vinyl is a bootleg so would be nice to have on 12”. We already have it on cd with the retro 5th disc.

Seems to be 4 X 12” per box set And for lowlife I can only think of the perfect kiss, Subculture and Shellshock ( the other 86 releases I presume would be on brotherhood box set) so the Elegia one would make it a nice round 4 x 12"

This is a nice idea

I guess i'm in a minority but i've never been massively fussed about Substance.Wait, hear me out! No, what i mean is, when it was released it was all songs i'd been listening to for the previous few years anyway (with the exception of True Faith obviously) .At that point in time i would have preferred more new songs though we did get TF and 1963 and then TBTHOG.To me, Substance was more for people who were only vaguely aware of the band through Blue Monday and maybe one or two others.It was greatest hits for new fans to get into the band.And that was perfectly fine.All great songs of course but i'm always more hungry for new stuff.Says the man who will soon be spending out £135 on and old album PCL box set and 4 single re-releases haha!

But maybe a remastered Substance will get me listening to the album again instead of sticking on the old 12" singles.

Fotz wrote: To me, Substance was more for people who were only vaguely aware of the band through Blue Monday and maybe one or two others.It was greatest hits for new fans to get into the band.

That was me! I loved it and it was the first LP I heard by the band. It's a magnificent introduction to the band. I'm going to show a little bias here, but surely this is one of the greatest ever compilations by a band. Also, having 17 out of the 20 tracks being exclusive to the compilation, kind of makes it 'almost' a studio LP in itself. It really is excellent.

That being said, although I'm obviously interested in a Substance re-release, I'm far more excited by the studio LP boxes. For that reason, I'd prefer that it was released after the studio sets are done (especially considering that, if they do it after 'Brotherhood', it'll only further delay me getting my grubby little hands on a 'Technique' set). Alternatively, maybe if it isn't in the same style as the 'Definitive' editions, it could be released in tandem with the sets, as a 'stand alone' type release (i.e. not delaying the releases of the sets).

And me. I bought the double cassette from Spin Inn on Eccles precinct and played it in my car for what seemed like forever. My 1st Neworder purchase and a beloved item.

Fotz wrote: To me, Substance was more for people who were only vaguely aware of the band through Blue Monday and maybe one or two others.It was greatest hits for new fans to get into the band.

Not sure I fully agree with that (although maybe was the case for some people) - but let's not forget that a large chunk of New Order singles up that point weren't ever included on albums, so to me as a New Order fan who either couldn't find or couldn't afford all the singles it was a great and affordable way to finally fill the holes in my collection. At the time it didn't feel like a normal "greatest hits" - it felt like giving all these great standalone singles a home

The Shadow wrote: It’s a compilation so there can’t be any unreleased stuff or different versions as that will be covered on the other box sets.

Substance needs to be remastered. For North America, it was THE gateway album to New Order, and none of the remastered 12" singles they're releasing are seeing a digital physical release, i.e. on CD, not just available to stream and download.

And it makes absolutely no sense to NOT release it in chronological order with the other sets. Not after, not in tandem. It was the springboard to Technique being as successful as it was.

I still think the box sets are far too expensive and the video stuff is 'bundled' to justify the price. Since I'm not interested in the videos is there a possibility of an Aldi/Lidl version with audio only, no videos, t-shirts, books etc or am I missing the point that it's a collectors item.

Wire did great deluxe versions of their first 3 LPs in 7" sized hardback book covers for £30. £100+ is a joke. I'd want Bernard's PCL lab coat included at that price.

Substance: was this not done just for Wilson to play on his car's new CD player.

GotBlueEyes wrote:

Fotz wrote: To me, Substance was more for people who were only vaguely aware of the band through Blue Monday and maybe one or two others.It was greatest hits for new fans to get into the band.

Not sure I fully agree with that (although maybe was the case for some people) - but let's not forget that a large chunk of New Order singles up that point weren't ever included on albums, so to me as a New Order fan who either couldn't find or couldn't afford all the singles it was a great and affordable way to finally fill the holes in my collection. At the time it didn't feel like a normal "greatest hits" - it felt like giving all these great standalone singles a home

Yes i owned three NO studio albums by the time Substance came out. If you told me then that I was only vaguely aware of NO I would have pulled a teenage strop!

But 12"s were expensive. I could buy an album for just over the price of two 12"s, so albums were what I bought. I remember hearing about Substance a few weeks before its release and getting v excited. I already considered myself a NO fan and couldn't wait to fill the holes in my NO singles collection. I suspect Mr Fotzepolitic, you may be in the minority of people (who call themselves fans today) who had all the singles by 1987. You were just too hip for Substance!

50poundnote wrote: And it makes absolutely no sense to NOT release it in chronological order with the other sets. Not after, not in tandem. It was the springboard to Technique being as successful as it was.

Nobody's saying that that isn't important. But it isn't a studio LP. If this project is specifically looking at studio LPs, a case could be argued that it shouldn't be included as a 'Definitive Edition'.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with this (I obviously want as many of these sets, and the additional tracks that come with them, as we can get), but would the LP really necessitate the full-to-bursting 'Definitive' package?:

Anything that would normally be covered in the included book will probably have been covered in previous books. Live video material from 1987 could very easily have been covered in the Brotherhood era set. The 12"s have, themselves, already been released (albeit not in a digital physical release, granted) Etc.

I'm also not saying that it shouldn't be remastered and released (it certainly looks like that's in the plan anyway).

I'm just saying that it should be remastered and released, but it doesn't necessarily have to follow the 'Definitive Edition' release style and schedule. It could just be a 'bare bones' release (like the recent 'Singles' re-release), or it could be a more expanded version as we've speculated above. I'm obviously hoping for the latter (at the very least).

I'd love a 'Definitive Substance', but I'm keeping an open mind. It wouldn't upset me greatly if we didn't get one, as long as it gets some form of release.

Debaser wrote:

I suspect Mr Fotzepolitic, you may be in the minority of people (who call themselves fans today) who had all the singles by 1987. You were just too hip for Substance!

Oh.i did feel wary that i'd get a response like this.Nothing to do with being hip.Maybe it's to do with the year i was born which meant i was 15/16 in 1983/84.I'd first heard PCL in late 1983 and the next 3 or 4 months after i bought every NO & JD album and 12" i could find in my local record shops.So by spring 1984 i had every New Order and Joy Division 12" and album and absolutely loved hearing those songs for the first time and played them repeatedly over the following 2 or 3 year before Substance came out in August 1987.It's like i'm being made to feel guilty for buying up all the stuff in 1983/84 , 3 years before Substance came out.

In another life i would have loved to have never heard any of the songs before i bought Substance.In a way i feel i missed out . i mean how mindblowing it would have been to hear all the songs for the first time upon buying Substance.So in a way, all you lot that discovered the songs when you bought Substance had it the best way.

tapebias wrote: I still think the box sets are far too expensive and the video stuff is 'bundled' to justify the price. Since I'm not interested in the videos is there a possibility of an Aldi/Lidl version with audio only, no videos, t-shirts, books etc or am I missing the point that it's a collectors item. .

Movement CDs are available lossless on Qobuz. It will probably be the same for PCL.

Fotz wrote:

In another life i would have loved to have never heard any of the songs before i bought Substance.In a way i feel i missed out . i mean how mindblowing it would have been to hear all the songs for the first time upon buying Substance.So in a way, all you lot that discovered the songs when you bought Substance had it the best way.

It was indeed mind-blowing to me that I was able to get all those missing singles from my collection together in one place. I bought the double cassette box version as it had the most tracks. I thought I had it all. Listened to it so much that the b-sides cassette snapped. Took it back to WH Smith and they swapped it for the white linen box edition!

It blew my mind a second time when I realised years later via the guy who blogged all the singles, that quite a lot of the Substance tracks were edits or alternate versions, so there was still more to hear/collect

Fotz wrote: In another life i would have loved to have never heard any of the songs before i bought Substance.

I had seen Confusion once or twice on MTV in 1983. I'd heard The Perfect Kiss once in a record shop in 1985. I saw Bizarre Love Triangle on MTV, and went out and bought Brotherhood - but the cassette version, minus State of The Nation.

So the first time I played Substance was my first time hearing Ceremony, Everything's Gone Green, Temptation, Blue Monday, Thieves Like Us, Subculture, Shellshock, State Of The Nation, the remix of Bizarre Love Triangle, and True Faith. And I'd picked up the 2-cassette Factory import with the slipcase, so I had all the B-sides to explore. It's not exaggerating to say that album changed my life.

GotBlueEyes wrote: It blew my mind a second time when I realised years later via the guy who blogged all the singles, that quite a lot of the Substance tracks were edits or alternate versions

That was me. :)

It took 4 of us a couple of months to figure all of that out, cross-referencing our copies and sourcing from other people. Discogs wasn't very helpful at the time, since Factory's own records were haphazard. Nor was Wikipedia. It was a labor of love.

I bought the double tape of 'Substance' in the summer of 1988 in the Cowes Woolworths whilst on holiday in the Isle of Wight. I'd have been 13 at the time. I knew 'True Faith' and had bought the 'Touched By The Hand Of God' 7". 'Blue Monday 1988' was in the charts. Other than that every track on 'Substance' was new to me.

As others have said, it changed my life and got me exploring indie, punk, dance and so on from then on. I'd never heard anything like 'Shellshock' and was hooked to that straight away. Still think it's underrated and am always drawn to songs that sound unlike any other - of which 'Shellshock' is definitely one.

'Theives Like Us' will forever remind me of being in Dad's car with Mum and my brother, playing the tape on headphones as we drove over Isle of Wight hills on the way back from Cowes to Whitecliff Bay holiday camp.

Was bewildered and fascinated at the same time by all those crazy dub versions. The album has accompanied me through my life and often gets played when I'm on holiday, in keeping with when I first heard it.

There's definitely something about this mere "compilation" that transcends it way above standard greatest hits and, to me, it is an album in its own right. 12 perfect tracks (13 on tape 1) in a perfect order as an album, yet showing the band's development, progression and innovation in 6 short years.

I think i actually remember seeing NO do Blue Monday when it was first shown on TOTP and was the first time i'd ever heard of them but i thought it sounded awful.I first started reaally hearing Blue Monday though when it was played a lot on Radio 1 in Spring 1983, or at least the vocal section 4 minutes in the middle.Think it only used to get played in full by Tommy Vance when he did the Top 40 chart rundown on Sunday teatime around that time, he even played The Beach once , by mistake i'm sure and was probably because he had one of the mislabelled copies.Blue Monday first truly blew my mind when i heard it at a youth disco we would sometimes go to on Sunday nights.I eventually bought the 12" when it re-entered that UK Top 40 in autumn 83 and that was the start of it all for me i guess.

I'd heard Confusion 7" a lot on Radio 1 in late summer 1983 and quite liked it but that was as far as it went, i did though buy the 12" at some point later on.I think i much preferred the Kilkenny live version at that time though.

My first encounters with Ceremony, Everything's Gone Green and Temptation were actually the live versions from Kilkenny when the show was broadcast on Radio 1 in December 83.Ceremony live was fast , slightly chaotic but inspiring nonetheless on the Kilkenny broadcast which i'd recorded to cassette and played over and over again.EGG at Kilkenny sounded menacing and extraordinary and i was actually maybe a little disappointed at first when i heard the recorded version for the first time when i bought the Factus 8 1982 EP, i think i found the live version much more to my liking.My first encounter with Temptation, on the Kilkenny tape, was really positive.I found it an utter juggernaut of a song.Incredible.The version on Factus 8 though i found very very different to the live version i'd become familiar with but still great in a different way.When i first bought and heard Ceremony (the green sleeve version) i found it slightly slower than the Kilkenny live version i'd become familiar with but really took to it with it within a few plays.It was more restrained compared to the Kilkenny live version but the chiming guitars, thumping rhythm by Steve and great lyrics and vocal from Barney convinced me it was a class song.The record player i had at that time was an old gramophone late 1940s thing that had been in the family forever.Somehow Ceremony and Bernard's vocal style with the record playing on the old 1940s record player was kind of neat, like an old austere vibe.The sound on that old record player was actually pretty good.It broked down eventually but we still have it an attic.

Always associate Thieves Like with hearing it for the first time on Anne Nightingale's Radio 1 show on a Sunday night a week or two before it was released.That long intro was beautiful.The sleeve was a sight to behold when i eventually got my hands on it.

With The Perfect Kiss i think i'd heard the 7" just once maybe on Radio 1 before i bought the 12" when it was released the same day as Low-Life.At first I didn't know quite what to make of the sounds they used right at the start of it and only really got into it once Hooky's bass and then the drum machine kicked in.I think i remember asking a DJ in a pub one time around when TPK was first released if he had it and could he play it and he miserably responded with something like " oh, i've heard that new one of theirs - they've gone off, it's not a patch on Blue Monday, it's shit and no i don't have it" Could have lamped him!

Singles like Sub Culture, Shellshock, State Of The Nation, BLT (Pettibone Remix) and True Faith i first heard them when they were released or on the Radio just before .Oh, i first heard Sub Culture 12" on John Peel when he premiered it on his show on what i think was Steve Morris' birthday in Oct 85 as i recall Peel wishing Steve a happy birthday.Was a bit disappointed on first listen to Shellshock but it was the 7" , again on Radio 1.The 12" is much better but it's still not one of my fave NO tracks, sorry! First heard State Of The Nation on John Peel and thought it was really good.Didn't hear BLT (Pettibone) til i bought the 12" upon release.A workmate had it heard it on the radio before me and told me it had a brilliant chunky thumping beat and when i first heard it i thiought yes, it bloody has! Amazing beat..Think i heard True Faith 7" for the first time on Radio 1 (again!) and immediately thought, wow Barney has really nailed it with this one - what a very, very catch tune.Played True Faith and 1963 to death when i bought the 7" and 12", New Order really were on top of their game with that single.

Oh i forgot about Murder.Heard this mad song on Kid Jensen's evening Radio 1 show and afterwards he said that's the new single by New Order.What?? No way! Then i remembered that someone had written into NME a few months before, asking about a missing song called Murder from the Power, Corruption & Lies sessions and was it true it had samples of HAL from 2001: A Space Odyssey. It took a couple of listens when i bought the 12" ( the "nightime" version of the Thieves sleeve was fantastic by Saville) but i kind of liked it pretty quickly.It was certainly different.

Songs like Mesh and Procession i first heard when i bought the Factus 8 EP in early 1984.Mesh was good and i absolutely loved Procession right from the off with that synth intro and Bernard's lyrics about "nobody even tries to find out, what they once knew" and "your heart beats you/ late at night".I didn't hear Cries And Whispers til sometime later when i eventually bought the EGG 12".

God i've rambled and if you're still here, well done!

50poundnote wrote:

GotBlueEyes wrote: It blew my mind a second time when I realised years later via the guy who blogged all the singles, that quite a lot of the Substance tracks were edits or alternate versions

That was me. :)

It took 4 of us a couple of months to figure all of that out, cross-referencing our copies and sourcing from other people. Discogs wasn't very helpful at the time, since Factory's own records were haphazard. Nor was Wikipedia. It was a labor of love.

I can't thank you enough - a fantastic effort

perspexorange wrote:

I had no idea of this. Do you know how they differ?

I didn't know this either, so just had a listen and yes the version on the Collectors Edition 2xCD is different to the 12"/Substance version

On the Collectors Edition version, the snares are much crispier/more prominent (you can really hear this on the intro) and the ending is just the song fading out quickly, whereas the 12" version has that proper slowing-down drum break ending

While I was at it I checked out he other differences mentioned

Similarly, the PCL 2008 Collector's Edition had a version of 'Murder' with a slightly longer intro that the 12" or 'Substance' versions.

It has a couple of static clicks from the equipment and then an audible count-in - that's all I could hear different (beyond the brighter mastering that the whole collectors CD had)

'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' was again an alternate take which (I'm told) appeared on the US 'Shellshock' 12" b-side (possibly also in error back then)

Not sure if it's a different take, but definitely a different edit - there is about 20 seconds cut from the middle section on the Collectors edition version

GotBlueEyes wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

I had no idea of this. Do you know how they differ?

I didn't know this either, so just had a listen and yes the version on the Collectors Edition 2xCD is different to the 12"/Substance version

On the Collectors Edition version, the snares are much crispier/more prominent (you can really hear this on the intro) and the ending is just the song fading out quickly, whereas the 12" version has that proper slowing-down drum break ending

While I was at it I checked out he other differences mentioned

Similarly, the PCL 2008 Collector's Edition had a version of 'Murder' with a slightly longer intro that the 12" or 'Substance' versions.

It has a couple of static clicks from the equipment and then an audible count-in - that's all I could hear different (beyond the brighter mastering that the whole collectors CD had)

'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' was again an alternate take which (I'm told) appeared on the US 'Shellshock' 12" b-side (possibly also in error back then)

Not sure if it's a different take, but definitely a different edit - there is about 20 seconds cut from the middle section on the Collectors edition version

Good bit of research here. Many thanks.

Can't believe I've never noticed that 'count in' intro to 'Murder'. The only explanation I have is that I'm guessing that I never played the second disc of the Collectors CD. I didn't buy any of the Collectors versions at the time of release (mercifully, considering the numerous mistakes on initial copies). I only bought them a couple of years later and, by that point, I had the 'Recycle' project's versions. I therefore probably had no need to ever stick the second CDs into my player.

GotBlueEyes wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

Similarly, the PCL 2008 Collector's Edition had a version of 'Murder' with a slightly longer intro that the 12" or 'Substance' versions.

It has a couple of static clicks from the equipment and then an audible count-in - that's all I could hear different (beyond the brighter mastering that the whole collectors CD had)

Both the 12" and the second CD of Substance cut off the first drum beat of Murder. I like the restored version on PC&L with the little tape squelch and count-in.

Early copies of the Blue Monday 12" are missing the first two beats. That's the variation we included in Recycle.

The 'Recycle' version of 'Blue Monday' is the one I listen to most (same for all the other singles / b-sides).

It still sounds weird though and I don't think I'll ever get used to it! :-)

perspexorange wrote: The 'Recycle' version of 'Blue Monday' is the one I listen to most (same for all the other singles / b-sides).

It still sounds weird though and I don't think I'll ever get used to it! :-)

Does that mean it misses the first two quarter note beats (the ones on the beat) and starts with the 16th note "machine gun" 8 bass drum hits in rapid succession?

The one that is metronmically correct (i.e. the one that starts one beat 1 of the correct first bar) is the version on 'Substance'.

Mr Discography wrote: Does that mean it misses the first two quarter note beats (the ones on the beat) and starts with the 16th note "machine gun" 8 bass drum kits in rapid succession?

Yes. It was fixed on later pressings of Blue Monday and on Substance.

GotBlueEyes wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

I had no idea of this. Do you know how they differ?

I didn't know this either, so just had a listen and yes the version on the Collectors Edition 2xCD is different to the 12"/Substance version

On the Collectors Edition version, the snares are much crispier/more prominent (you can really hear this on the intro) and the ending is just the song fading out quickly, whereas the 12" version has that proper slowing-down drum break ending

While I was at it I checked out he other differences mentioned

Similarly, the PCL 2008 Collector's Edition had a version of 'Murder' with a slightly longer intro that the 12" or 'Substance' versions.

It has a couple of static clicks from the equipment and then an audible count-in - that's all I could hear different (beyond the brighter mastering that the whole collectors CD had)

'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' was again an alternate take which (I'm told) appeared on the US 'Shellshock' 12" b-side (possibly also in error back then)

Not sure if it's a different take, but definitely a different edit - there is about 20 seconds cut from the middle section on the Collectors edition version

The Beach was missing some edit sections that should have been inserted, that includes the outro bit.

Murder has a longer drum intro at the beginning that should have been trimmed.

Thieves Instrumental (on the 12" and Substance) should be a combination edit of two instrumentals on the masters, the extended drum roll in the middle gives away the edit. The US Shellshock featured one of the instrumentals unedited (probably by accident). I think the Collector's Edition (revised version) featured the other instrumental, also unedited.

Johnny James wrote:

Thieves Instrumental (on the 12" and Substance) should be a combination edit of two instrumentals on the masters, the extended drum roll in the middle gives away the edit. The US Shellshock featured one of the instrumentals unedited (probably by accident). I think the Collector's Edition (revised version) featured the other instrumental, also unedited.

Interesting, so the US 'Shellshock' version of 'Theives Like Us Instrumental' is still exclusive to that 12" release and not available on CD?

May have to track down a copy...

Thanks JJ. very informative.

So, just to get this straight in my head, in respect of 'Thieves Like Us' (Instrumental), there are the following variants:

12" version (6:58) (combination of two masters; used on 'Thieves Like Us' 12" and 'Substance' LP) 12" version variant 1 (6:38) (master A; used on 'Shellshock' US 12") 12" version variant 2 (6:39) (master A; used on 'Power, Corruption & Lies' Collectors' Edition) 7" edit (3:55) (edit of master A; used on 'Shellshock' 7")

Does this seem correct? Is there any easy was to differentiate between the two masters?

Johnny - presumably the versions of 'The Beach', 'Murder' and 'Thieves Like Us (Instrumental)' on the forthcoming 12"s are the correct ones (i.e. the ones used on the original 12"s and 'Substance')?

perspexorange wrote: Thanks JJ. very informative.

So, just to get this straight in my head, in respect of 'Thieves Like Us' (Instrumental), there are the following variants:

12" version (6:58) (combination of two masters; used on 'Thieves Like Us' 12" and 'Substance' LP) 12" version variant 1 (6:38) (master A; used on 'Shellshock' US 12") 12" version variant 2 (6:39) (master A; used on 'Power, Corruption & Lies' Collectors' Edition) 7" edit (3:55) (edit of master A; used on 'Shellshock' 7")

Does this seem correct? Is there any easy was to differentiate between the two masters?

Johnny - presumably the versions of 'The Beach', 'Murder' and 'Thieves Like Us (Instrumental)' on the forthcoming 12"s are the correct ones (i.e. the ones used on the original 12"s and 'Substance')?

Something like that, except I'm not sure which variant might have been used where. I'd have to examine the two and figure it out again.

Hopefully we've got it all correct on the new stuff, unless we've missed some minor thing.

Right, I think it's Take 2 on the US Shellshock, then on the Collector's Edition (fixed version) they used Take 1.

The UK/Benelux original should be a combined edit of the two.