Mapping the (hopefully!) forthcoming Definitive Editions... Part 1 - PC&L

perspexorange wrote:

Fotz wrote: on the DVD that also has the Play At Home doc.

Love that film. Was watching it for the umpteenth time 2-3 weeks ago. When these box sets were originally being mooted, I always hoped that 'Play At Home' would be included. It's such a great part of the New Order Story and perfectly shows the important link between them and Factory.

Still can't quite believe that we get to see Tony's cock though. I could've done without that. And to think that Gillian was mere inches away from it.

Ugh, yeah that's the only thing i dislike about Play At Home, Wilson n.. god i don;t even want to type it.I remember setting the video to record the doc the night it was aired as i , crazily, went out to play football in the park with mates instead and knew i'd get home late and my mum would be watching something else when i got home.Had to wait til the following afternoon til i got home from work to finally watch the recording.It really was a massive thing back then in 1984 when it made a massive impression to me at such a young age and still learning and finding out about New Order and Factory.Finding info or anything about New Order back then was so rare, they were like from another planet in those times.The images of the moors and roads around Manchester to the soundtrack of the intro to Thieves Like Us live intoxicated my young mind.Wow.Memories of youth.I still recommend anyone trying to work out Factory to watch Play At Home instead of the Twenty Four Hour Party People movie.

Thanks for that JJ. I didn't know that guitar, so had to Google it. It certainly looks like one. Also, knowing Hooky's love of Yamaha, it does seem likely he would use one.

Fotz wrote: I still recommend anyone trying to work out Factory to watch Play At Home instead of the Twenty Four Hour Party People movie.

Yep - it really is that good.

Just for a bit of fun, during one of my latest viewings, I had a go at trying to name everyone featured in the film.

This is what I came up with (with a bit of help from other fans):

Bernard Sumner (New Order) Peter Hook (New Order) Stephen Morris (New Order) Gillian Gilbert (New Order) Anthony H. Wilson (Factory Records) Alan Erasmus (Factory Records) Martin Hannett (Factory Records) Peter Saville (Factory Records) Rob Gretton (Factory Records) Richard Boon (Buzzcocks' manager) Bruce Mitchell (Durutti Column) Larry Cassidy (Section 25) Liz Naylor (City Fun fanzine) Michael Shamberg (Factory Records (New York)) Pete Shelley (Buzzcocks) Derek Johnson (52nd Street) Donald Johnson (A Certain Ratio) Andy Connell (A Certain Ratio / Kalima) Martin Moscrop (A Certain Ratio / Kalima) Jez Kerr (A Certain Ratio / Kalima) Vin Cassidy (Section 25) Hillegonda Rietveld (Quando Quango) Cath Carroll (Miaow) Mike Pickering (Quando Quango) Howard "Ginger" Jones (Haçienda General Manager) ? (Claude Bessy possibly)

The only one I couldn't name is the guy dancing with Rob at the Haçienda. I've guessed at Claude Bessy. You can see him at 19:49 here:

^ Haha yeah just that opening graphics and music takes me right back immediate to being 16 in 1984.Nope i never did work out who that is dancing with Rob.

Hooky talked a bit about Alan Erasmus in the recent streamed thing.Shame Mr Erasmus is seemingly reluctant to talk in front of camera these days.He always seemed to be a big part of Factory back in the day and a really nice fellow.

Johnny James wrote:

I think you have to use the 87 versions, as they're part and parcel of the original release. The originals were on Singles anyway (remastered). I'd say the Perfect Kiss edit adds nothing so use the full one. Also, I'd use the correct In A Lonely Place as again, that alternate (not quite finished mix) adds nothing. I'm definitely into using the cassette extra tracks over two CDs. Yes to the other edits, Hurt, Shellshock, Sub Culture.

If it was done as a box of some sort, adding more content could be tricky. We'll probably use the better material for DVDs on the Definitve albums. That Substance show does exist on audio cassette but is far from perfect (tape flips missing a bit), no video of it. So, I dunno if there much we could add.

A further question to consider... The original disc 2 and tape 2 has track 3 listed as 'Cries and Whispers' and track 4 as 'Mesh' - this is the order the two tracks appeared on the 'Everything's Gone Green' original 12" release. Unfortunately, the actual recordings were the wrong way round and mislabelled on 'Substance', making 3 'Mesh' and 4 'Cries And Whispers'.

So... Should a reissue preserve the actual, erroneous order that's on the physical recording - which is how we experience the progression and track flow of the 'Substance' B-sides and are familiar with it. Or... Be faithful to the actual tracks as they were listed and appeared on 'Everything's Gone Green'and swap the audio into the (presumably) intended order when 'Substance' was conceived...?

Opinions?

To whoever is the webmaster of this forum these days, I keep getting a pink banner pop up telling me "Your message was reject as it was detected as SPAM!" whenever I try to edit a post shortly after making it. Can the webmaster do something to prevent this please?

Anyone else getting this today?

Not today, but have had it in the past.

I think it might be related to non-English words.

If you use these, and then edit the post, it’ll sometimes reject it.

An example would be if you shortened Blue Monday to BM or The Perfect Kiss to TPK. I’ve noticed that, if you remove or change these type of words, you can often get it past the spam filter.

Looking at your previous post, maybe try changing the wordf ‘CD2’ to ‘disc 2’.

That might be the offending word.

perspexorange wrote: Looking at your previous post, maybe try changing the wordf ‘CD2’ to ‘disc 2’.

That might be the offending word.

Maybe I'm sheltered, but I've no idea why CD2 would be offensive, and I'm not sure why it would get through in the original post. I changed it in my original post and it got through. Then, when I re-edited immediately afterwards (to correct my quote tags - why I wanted to edit it) I got the spam message again. I think this could be more to do with frequency of posts, and how quickly there's an attempt to edit a post after it's been put up. Darned annoying.

Anyway, sort of off-topic, but thanks for the suggestions. Besides, much more interesting things to talk about than this!

What would you do about the 'Mesh'/'Cries And Whispers' business anyway - preserve the order on the recording, or adjust the recording to match the Substance and EGG track listings?

Cheers

Okay, I've cracked it - here's a proposed 3 x CD tracklist for 'Substance' 1987 (Definitive Edition)' that I think stays authentic to the original LP, CD and tape versions. It takes advantage of the free space having 2 x B-side CDs will provide by adding three "bonus tracks" that:

• (a) were on the original 12" releases;
• (b) preserve the original tape/CD running orders up to '1963'
• (c) remain in the order they were released; and
• (d) ensure no individual song appears more than once on either of the A and B side elements of the 3 main discs.

Also some suggestions for CD 4, but happy to be surprised with more exclusive stuff if it exists.

Johnny, treat this as a formal proposal to the band…

CD1 1. Ceremony (2nd version) 2. Everything's Gone Green 3. Temptation (1987 new version) 4. Blue Monday 5. Confusion (1987 new version) 6. Thieves Like Us 7. The Perfect Kiss (unedited full 12") 8. Subculture (Substance edit) 9. Shellshock (Substance edit) 10. State Of The Nation 11. Bizarre Love Triangle 12. True Faith (74:56)

CD2 1. In A Lonely Place (proper final 12" version) 2. Procession 3. Mesh 4. Cries And Whispers 5. Hurt (Substance edit) 6. The Beach 7. Confused Instrumental 8. Lonesome Tonight 9. Murder 10. Thieves Like Us Instrumental (55:07) You may want to swap Mesh and Cries And Whispers round to match the EGG 12" order and (presumably) intended running order of Substance in the tracklist that had mixed up the titles

CD3 1. Kiss Of Death 2. Dubvulture 3. Shellcock 4. Shame Of The Nation 5. Bizarre Dub Triangle 6. 1963 7. Evil Dust [bonus track] 8. Paradise (Remix) [bonus track] 9. True Dub [bonus track] (64:16)

As for CD4, I'd love to be pleasantly surprised, but here's a few suggestions to include or choose from: 1. Blue Monday (Unreleased 7" edit) 2. The Perfect Kiss (3:50 UK Edit) 3. In A Lonely Place (7") 4. Hurt (7") 5. The Beach (Unreleased 7" edit - if it exists) 6. Confusion Dub 1987 [although on later TBTHOG CD single, presumably recorded at the same time as the 'Substance' re-record, so appropriate to this era] 7. Lonesome Tonight (7") 8. Thieves Like Us (Instrumental Edit) [From 'Shellshock 7"] 9. The Kiss Of Death (5:10 Factory Benelux 7") 10. Dub-vulture (7") 11. Shame Of The Nation (7") 12. Bizarre Dub Triangle (7") 13. The Kiss Of Death (3:01 UK Edit) 14. Sub-culture (4:59 Remix Edit from Factory Benelux 7") [different to the 'Substance' Edit) 15. Bizarre Love Triangle (4:58 Extended Edit from Qwest promo 12” PRO-A-2636) 16. True Faith (Remix 7") [audio track from 'True Faith' CD Video] (59:22 excluding 'Blue Monday' / 'The Beach')

Presumably, other dubs that appeared on the original 12 inches will be swept up by their respective digital releases (such as 'Confused Beats', 'Confusion (Rough Mix)', 'Perfect Pit'), so I've avoided them here to avoid repetition. I'd happily ditch of few of the above (BLT Extended Edit, 'Subculture (Remix Edit)', 'True Faith (Remix Edit)' and the UK 'Kiss Of Death' edit for example) in favour of more exclusive unreleased treats or outtakes/demos.

Maybe also re-release these 12 inches at the same time as 'Substance', which all came out to more or less accompany 'Substance', and weren't associated with 'Brotherhood' or 'Technique', which were distinctly different eras:

• True Faith
• True Faith Remix (with 'Paradise (Remix)' to mirror the Australian release - instead of repeating '1963' which is already on the first 'True Faith' 12"
• Touched By The Hand Of God (which came out soon after 'Substance' and shared similar cover art to 'True Faith')
• Blue Monday 1988

How's that for a proposal for the band to consider..?

Cheers!

Glad that amending ‘CD2’ fixed it for you. I don’t think it’s because it thinks the word is offensive, just that it doesn’t recognise it as a word. Why it only rejects these when being edited, rather than when they’re first posted, I’ve no idea. Yeah - I’ve also noticed that ‘quick edits’ cause spam problems too.

As regards ‘Mesh’ and ‘Cries & Whispers’, I’d personally preserve the order as per the ‘Substance’ cassette and amend the artwork to reflect the correct titles. That seems the most logical approach, with the LP sounding the same as previously released but with titles corrected.

I like your track listing proposal, and it’s seems to cover all bases.

TBTHOG should be on CD1!

Hi guys, I really enjoy reading what you're expecting for the Substance box, but I think it's time to create a proper topic to find the right infos in the right place

Cheers

Jcp7 wrote: TBTHOG should be on CD1!

But it wasn't on 'Substance' in '87 and wasn't part of the concept when it was conceived.

Plus the 12" wouldn't fit on the CD.

Well, the PC&L set is up on Amazon.co.uk:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07YGM16Y7/ref=sr\_1\_1?dchild=1&keywords=power+corruption+and+lies+definitive&qid=1596803436&sr=8-1

£107.99

So not much cheaper than the New Order store (£112.99). As the 12"s aren't on there (and may never be), you'd need to get these from the NO Store (or elsewhere) at £9.99 a pop.

Therefore:

Amazon.co.uk (LP) & New Order Store (12"s) combined - £107.99, plus 4 x £9.99 = £147.95 New Order Store - £135.00

So, a saving of £12.95, or you can opt for the t-shirt combo costing £150, therefore getting the t-shirt effectively for £2.05 (£150-£147.95).

Of course, Amazon.co.uk are probably more reliable, especially based on my delay with the Closer bundle from NO. However, on a set this size, they're probably going to use a courier rather than Royal Mail (think there's a minimum value for this. The couriers that delivered Closer were on time apparently. So, maybe that makes my choice a little more clear.

Hmmm, thinking about it though, I think the NO Store charges immediately, whilst Amazon.co.uk only charges on dispatch.

Choices, choices, eh?

perspexorange wrote: Well, the PC&L set is up on Amazon.co.uk:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07YGM16Y7/ref=sr\_1\_1?dchild=1&keywords=power+corruption+and+lies+definitive&qid=1596803436&sr=8-1

£107.99

So not much cheaper than the New Order store (£112.99). As the 12"s aren't on there (and may never be), you'd need to get these from the NO Store (or elsewhere) at £9.99 a pop.

Therefore:

Amazon.co.uk (LP) & New Order Store (12"s) combined - £107.99, plus 4 x £9.99 = £147.95 New Order Store - £135.00

So, a saving of £12.95, or you can opt for the t-shirt combo costing £150, therefore getting the t-shirt effectively for £2.05 (£150-£147.95).

Of course, Amazon.co.uk are probably more reliable, especially based on my delay with the Closer bundle from NO. However, on a set this size, they're probably going to use a courier rather than Royal Mail (think there's a minimum value for this. The couriers that delivered Closer were on time apparently. So, maybe that makes my choice a little more clear.

Hmmm, thinking about it though, I think the NO Store charges immediately, whilst Amazon.co.uk only charges on dispatch.

Choices, choices, eh?

Worth remembering Amazon's pre-order price guarantee though. Saved me over £20 with 'Movement' (and came on day of release at no cost as I'm Amazon Prime:

• Movement (Definitive Edition) [VINYL]
• Price on order date: £109.99
• Price charged at shipping: £89.22
• Lowest price before release date: £89.22
• Quantity: 1
• Total Savings: £20.77

I've ordered with New Order store and Amazon. Good chance I'll cancel the NO store the week before release as long as the Amazon in stock date doesn't slip.

Yep. I do usually go with Amazon for this very reason. I ordered Movement through them, but couldn’t remember what price it was when I first ordered it (presumably the same as you as I ordered straight away and was charged £89).

Did the New Order Store charge you immediately?

perspexorange wrote: Yep. I do usually go with Amazon for this very reason. I ordered Movement through them, but couldn’t remember what price it was when I first ordered it (presumably the same as you as I ordered straight away and was charged £89).

Did the New Order Store charge you immediately?

It did for me using PayPal.

Ta. This is a bit annoying, as I always worry that it might be a bit of a ball-ache getting my money back.

Oh, and this has just landed:

perspexorange wrote: Ta. This is a bit annoying, as I always worry that it might be a bit of a ball-ache getting my money back.

Oh, and this has just landed:

Nice to see them all happy. Steve is, as always, a joy to listen to.

Bernard is having fun talking about his 'dalliances' with substances.

Man, I love these guys... :-)

Edited this to move my previous post onto the new page (the board is moving fast! Well, for us!)

^ Thanks for posting.Looks like that was recorded at the same time as the Movement ones (same clothes etc.)

Fotz wrote: ^ Thanks for posting.Looks like that was recorded at the same time as the Movement ones (same clothes etc.)

Yep I noticed that too.

I'm guessing they've recorded them for the first few LPs, at the very least.

Damn - these sort of videos just make the wait until 02/10/20 seem longer.

Question regarding the PCL extras CD. What's the distinction between "Writing Session Recordings" as opposed to "Demos" (which we had on Movement)?

perspexorange wrote:

As regards ‘Mesh’ and ‘Cries & Whispers’, I’d personally preserve the order as per the ‘Substance’ cassette and amend the artwork to reflect the correct titles. That seems the most logical approach, with the LP sounding the same as previously released but with titles corrected.

Seconded.

As for TBTHOG. Ok it shouldn't be on CD1, that's madness! But I think it should be on one of the extra CDs. For me the Technique era started with Fine Time. So Touched doesnt really fit it. By the time Technique arrived, we (the world and NO) had moved into the House and Balearic era. Touched sounds like 80s dance-rock, and although I love it, it started to sound very dated very quickly. I think Touched also ended up on some version of the Substance VHS tape (Discogs has gone glitchy RN, so I can't check).

I don't think you should have to buy a 12" re-release in order to get the track. It was released the same year as Substance and it's a better track than some of the proposed remixes and dubs; get it in there.

Debaser wrote: As for TBTHOG. Ok it shouldn't be on CD1, that's madness! But I think it should be on one of the extra CDs.

It is on the Substance VHS, but I don't feel it belongs with Substance. It should stay with the Salvation tracks, wherever they end up (Brotherhood? Technique?) The film soundtrack came out in May '87, so that would lean toward Brotherhood, but the single came out after Substance (Wikipedia says June '87, but that's wrong. True Faith is FAC 183, TBTHOG is FAC 193, and I didn't see it for sale until December '87), so that would lean toward Technique.

Isn't it lovely to have this much material to debate?

Actually, I've changed my mind. Substance should include a DVD of all the videos remastered, to mirror the VHS, so roll TBTHOG and Blue Monday 1988 in with it. There'll be tons of mixes and live material for Technique.

For the lowlife box set can we please have the 17 minute version of Elegia on vinyl please Mr Johnny James?

The only version on vinyl is a bootleg so would be nice to have on 12”. We already have it on cd with the retro 5th disc.

Seems to be 4 X 12” per box set And for lowlife I can only think of the perfect kiss, Subculture and Shellshock ( the other 86 releases I presume would be on brotherhood box set) so the Elegia one would make it a nice round 4 x 12”

For me the substance box set is the one I’m least interested in. I already have the limited factory employees one and the normal one. On top of that I’m buying all the remastered 12” again and I have all the originals so I’m not sure what a box set of substance would be for as it is essentially just the A and B sides of the singles.

What I forgot to say is how much I’m looking forward to the PC&L box set, it looks wonderful, a proper way to present one of the worlds greatest albums.

The Shadow wrote: so I’m not sure what a box set of substance would be for as it is essentially just the A and B sides of the singles.

The Substance CD needs to be remastered.

I just love the fact that there is an intention to release boxes for all LPs.

Just imagine how much great stuff will be unearthed.

Just imagine how cool all those beautiful boxes will look on your shelf.

Many thanks to all involved for the love and attention these sets are getting.

A project that matches the stature of the band.