Mapping the (hopefully!) forthcoming Definitive Editions... Part 1 - PC&L

I've mulled over the 'Substance 1987 puzzle' a few times, and still don't really know what I'd personally want from a Definitive edition.

There's certainly a part of me that would like to keep it as close to the original as possible (although I'd certainly agree that The Perfect Kiss should be restored to its full glory).

However, there's a part of me that thinks that this is a good excuse to release the LP as it was (presumably) originally envisioned, i.e. a complete record of all their 12"s, plus b-sides, without any track being edited. Therefore, Hurt, The Perfect Kiss, Sub-Culture and Shellshock would all be their original length (I will admit though that Sub-Culture and Shellshock do 'go on a bit').

I've also toyed with the idea in my head that I'd like to see the original 12"s of Temptation and Confusion as bonus tracks, and also, perhaps, some other mixes that weren't included originally; the original Ceremony, Confused Beats and Rough Mix, The Perfect Pit, the Paradise remix, Evil Dust, True Faith Remix and Dub, Confusion Dub '87 etc.

Difficult decision.

Thanks for answering these questions, Johnny. Could I possibly just quiz you briefly about the following:

1. Just curious about the three Blue Monday variants. It seems incredible that we have early versions of this seminal track. The story always goes that the original Blue Monday was accidentally wiped by either Bernard or Steve (I think they blame the other!). Do you know if the versions included pre-date this incident? What can we expect from these? I really cannot wait to hear these.

2. As regards 'Confusion' on 'Countdown', do you know whether this was ever transmitted on TV? I have a note that it was transmitted on radio, on Veronica's sister station. Also, was consideration given to include 'Blue Monday' and the interview from the same session?

Thanks.

perspexorange wrote: I've mulled over the 'Substance 1987 puzzle' a few times, and still don't really know what I'd personally want from a Definitive edition.

There's certainly a part of me that would like to keep it as close to the original as possible (although I'd certainly agree that The Perfect Kiss should be restored to its full glory).

However, there's a part of me that thinks that this is a good excuse to release the LP as it was (presumably) originally envisioned, i.e. a complete record of all their 12"s, plus b-sides, without any track being edited. Therefore, Hurt, The Perfect Kiss, Sub-Culture and Shellshock would all be their original length (I will admit though that Sub-Culture and Shellshock do 'go on a bit').

I've also toyed with the idea in my head that I'd like to see the original 12"s of Temptation and Confusion as bonus tracks, and also, perhaps, some other mixes that weren't included originally; the original Ceremony, Confused Beats and Rough Mix, The Perfect Pit, the Paradise remix, Evil Dust, True Faith Remix and Dub, Confusion Dub '87 etc.

Difficult decision.

Thanks for answering these questions, Johnny. Could I possibly just quiz you briefly about the following:

1. Just curious about the three Blue Monday variants. It seems incredible that we have early versions of this seminal track. The story always goes that the original Blue Monday was accidentally wiped by either Bernard or Steve (I think they blame the other!). Do you know if the versions included pre-date this incident? What can we expect from these? I really cannot wait to hear these.

2. As regards 'Confusion' on 'Countdown', do you know whether this was ever transmitted on TV? I have a note that it was transmitted on radio, on Veronica's sister station. Also, was consideration given to include 'Blue Monday' and the interview from the same session?

Thanks.

Substance does cause some issues in that it's hard to know what's best. I guess we need to think about what's unique about it. There is also a case for a Substance II, though you get well into remix territory with the A sides. There's a good case for a B sides disc though.

Regarding Blue Monday. There are two early versions, one short and very slow and even includes live drumming. That one is the very birth of the track. The second one is a compiled edit of all the various sections they ran through in preparation, much more like a prototype of the final one. Steve seemed to think it could well feature the drum programming that they accidently erased. The one that got away etc. The fills sound different. The third Blue Monday is from the actual recording session and is a not quite finished version of The Beach. If you know The Beach very well you'll hear some variations and parts that ended up muted etc.

Re: Countdown, I don't think it was ever transmitted. As far as I know it was only ever the interview and one of the Blue Monday takes. The interview is actually an edit of two attempts. The licensor Reelin' In The Years have put some of one interview on You Tube, plus one of the outtake Blue Mondays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gWoGCQJDeI

I would have liked to use one of the Blue Monday takes, however we had the BBC one (Warners have a deal with the BBC, so it's affordable to use that material) and more versions seemed a little unnecesary plus it's very expensive, and you have to wonder about the value when you can see two of the three takes on You Tube anyway.

The way I see it, 'Substance' CD1 (or tape - love it both with and without 'Murder') is my all time favourite album that has accompanied me since the age of 13. If a 'Definitive Edition' CD1 differs any more than restoring 'The Perfect Kiss' to its unedited form, and maybe squeezing in 'Murder', I'll find myself continuing to play the original CD in all its tinny glory!

Am more flexible regarding padding out a CD2 and CD3 with a few more dubs and B-sides, but wouldn't want it to deviate massively from the original B-sides tape/CD (with more than one version of the same track, etc. for example) or it'll become a tiresome continuous listen. Save the other dub/mix variations and edits for a CD4 "bonus disc". Also, perhaps 'Murder' would be better placed on CD2 given there'll be more space on discs 2 and 3 - and it never appeared on the original LP or CD.

One other question Johnny. Has thought been given to where the studio album 'Definitive Editions' will end? Are they just doing Factory albums, or including 'Republic' and later releases?

Thanks for all the juicy info, by the way - fascinating and much appreciated!

Mr Discography wrote:

One other question Johnny. Has thought been given to where the studio album 'Definitive Editions' will end? Are they just doing Factory albums, or including 'Republic' and later releases?

Thanks for all the juicy info, by the way - fascinating and much appreciated!

Republic, Get Ready, WFTSC/Lost Sirens are all in the plan.

Johnny James wrote:

I think you have to use the 87 versions, as they're part and parcel of the original release. The originals were on Singles anyway (remastered). I'd say the Perfect Kiss edit adds nothing so use the full one. Also, I'd use the correct In A Lonely Place as again, that alternate (not quite finished mix) adds nothing. I'm definitely into using the cassette extra tracks over two CDs. Yes to the other edits, Hurt, Shellshock, Sub Culture.

I'd just like to say Yes to all of this. Ok, bye.

Mr Discography wrote: The way I see it, 'Substance' CD1 (or tape - love it both with and without 'Murder') is my all time favourite album that has accompanied me since the age of 13. If a 'Definitive Edition' CD1 differs any more than restoring 'The Perfect Kiss' to its unedited form, and maybe squeezing in 'Murder', I'll find myself continuing to play the original CD in all its tinny glory!

Am more flexible regarding padding out a CD2 and CD3 with a few more dubs and B-sides, but wouldn't want it to deviate massively from the original B-sides tape/CD (with more than one version of the same track, etc. for example) or it'll become a tiresome continuous listen. Save the other dub/mix variations and edits for a CD4 "bonus disc". Also, perhaps 'Murder' would be better placed on CD2 given there'll be more space on discs 2 and 3 - and it never appeared on the original LP or CD.

I think that's the vibe I'm getting, that Substance as it existed in 1987 means a lot to people, so best not to mess with that, or at least be very careful about what gets altered.

Johnny James wrote: Regarding Blue Monday. There are two early versions, one short and very slow and even includes live drumming. That one is the very birth of the track. The second one is a compiled edit of all the various sections they ran through in preparation, much more like a prototype of the final one. Steve seemed to think it could well feature the drum programming that they accidently erased. The one that got away etc. The fills sound different. The third Blue Monday is from the actual recording session and is a not quite finished version of The Beach. If you know The Beach very well you'll hear some variations and parts that ended up muted etc.

Wow! They sound absolutely brilliant! I'm even more excited to hear these now. Especially that first one. Incredible.

Johnny James wrote: Re: Countdown, I don't think it was ever transmitted. As far as I know it was only ever the interview and one of the Blue Monday takes. The interview is actually an edit of two attempts. The licensor Reelin' In The Years have put some of one interview on You Tube, plus one of the outtake Blue Mondays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gWoGCQJDeI

I would have liked to use one of the Blue Monday takes, however we had the BBC one (Warners have a deal with the BBC, so it's affordable to use that material) and more versions seemed a little unnecessary plus it's very expensive, especially as you can see two of the three takes on You Tube anyway.

Thanks for this. I've often suspected that it was never transmitted. I actually have a clip of the third take. I think it was shown on a later edition of 'Countdown' (presumably 3-4 weeks later). It has a brief introduction by the same host where he says something along the lines of 'bands can play live in our studio, like New Order did recently'. Then there's a clip of about a minute's worth of Blue Monday. It certainly looks like it's a different take from both the available versions (including the 'false start'). At the very least it's a different vision mix, as there are different camera angles.

I fully appreciate the logic for not including the well-known 'Blue Monday' on 'Countdown' footage. Much better to include the unseen 'Confusion' footage. This is one of my most anticipated bits of the box set.

As an aside, I've always been a little unsure of the timeline for 'Confusion'. I always thought that the 'Countdown' performance was recorded on 27/05/83, which is quite an early outing for the track (I guess this is after the first live performance on 11/04/83, though).

I'm just wondering then, when Arthur Baker came on the scene. I'd have thought that he presumably first wanted to work with the band after hearing 'Blue Monday', following its release in March '83. That would signify that Baker was quite 'late to the party', as regards 'Confusion'. And that doesn't seem quite right, as I've always kind of assumed that he was fairly well involved from its inception.

I think I'm presuming far too much. Maybe the band met up with Baker prior to the release of 'Blue Monday'.

Johnny James wrote:

Mr Discography wrote:

One other question Johnny. Has thought been given to where the studio album 'Definitive Editions' will end? Are they just doing Factory albums, or including 'Republic' and later releases?

Thanks for all the juicy info, by the way - fascinating and much appreciated!

Republic, Get Ready, WFTSC/Lost Sirens are all in the plan.

Ace! This is good news. Although not most fans' favourites, these LPs still contain some great stuff and they've never previously been given the degree of 'reissue' attention that the others have. Besides, there's plenty of great live performances from the era that could potentially feature on the DVD (the '98 and '01 UK gigs, were filmed, for instance).

I think they probably went over to New York in early 83, Feb March? The track was done completely over there with Arthur, as far as I know. Thieves Like Us was more of a jam over an 808 at that point (as you'll hear in October).

Johnny James wrote: That Substance show does exist on audio cassette but is far from perfect (tape flips missing a bit)

Nope!

Irvine Meadows, 12 September 1987

Introduction by Tony Wilson Ceremony Everything's Gone Green Temptation Blue Monday Confusion Thieves Like Us The Perfect Kiss Sub-Culture Shellshock State Of The Nation Bizarre Love Triangle True Faith (Tape flip before the encore, does not cut any music) Atmosphere Love Will Tear Us Apart Sister Ray (slightly edited, could be cut)

It's an audience recording, but very clean, and Drew Crumbaugh/Mr. Analogue Loyalists would be able to work his magic.

Barney makes some off-color remarks by quoting Iggy Pop's The Passenger just before True Faith, but not over the music, so they could be cut out fairly easily.

I listen to this and the Chapter 3 boot (NYC 25 August 1987) more than any other NO live recordings.

Substance absolutely need its own box.

Preserve the original as much as possible, add two CDs to collect all the B-sides and dubs, etc. Include a 7" of Procession in one of 4 random colors (red, blue, green, yellow) on heavyweight color vinyl to match.

Going forward, the Salvation tracks, TBTHOG, Blue Monday 1988, and World In Motion should be in the Technique box. Each subsequent box would have its remixes added.

perspexorange wrote:

As an aside, I've always been a little unsure of the timeline for 'Confusion'. I always thought that the 'Countdown' performance was recorded on 27/05/83, which is quite an early outing for the track (I guess this is after the first live performance on 11/04/83, though).

I'm just wondering then, when Arthur Baker came on the scene. I'd have thought that he presumably first wanted to work with the band after hearing 'Blue Monday', following its release in March '83. That would signify that Baker was quite 'late to the party', as regards 'Confusion'. And that doesn't seem quite right, as I've always kind of assumed that he was fairly well involved from its inception.

I think I'm presuming far too much. Maybe the band met up with Baker prior to the release of 'Blue Monday'.

I wonder if they originally had in mind to record and release Confusion as a single in the form it takes when played live (and that eventually was recorded and appeared on Substance) ? But then Arthur Baker got involved at some point and radically changed it to the version that was actually recorded and released on the 1983 12" ?

A thought on the 'Confusion' 12" reissue. Interesting to note that 'Confusion' segues directly into 'Confusion Beats' on the 12" - hopefully this will be preserved on the digital version. The CD re-releases of 'Confusion' 12" mix so far all have a fairly quick fade just before where this gapless transition begins on the vinyl.

50poundnote wrote: Substance absolutely need its own box.

Preserve the original as much as possible, add two CDs to collect all the B-sides and dubs, etc. Include a 7" for Procession in one of 4 random colors (red, blue, green, yellow) on heavyweight color vinyl to match.

Going forward, the Salvation tracks, TBTHOG, Blue Monday 1988, and World In Motion should be in the Technique box. Each subsequent box would have its remixes added.

I agree. With the campaign extended to WFTSC/Lost Sirens' (presumably as a combined set), I hope they release 'Substance' in chronological order between 'Brotherhood' and 'Technique' rather than leaving us waiting until all studio album boxes are out again.

I hope from 'Republic' and, to some extent 'Technique' onwards they don't rely too much on using the plethora of DJ remixes as bonus content for the box sets. A few select ones will be fine, but some of the endless DJ remixes and DJ instrumental dubs bear little relation to the original songs, and - I feel - aren't in keeping with these boxed sets which ultimately represent New Order's own output as a band. I'd sooner have more unreleased songs, outtakes and demos on the boxes - leave the remixes to be reissued on the accompanying 12" singles and digital equivalents.

Fotz wrote:

I wonder if they originally had in mind to record and release Confusion as a single in the form it takes when played live (and that eventually was recorded and appeared on Substance) ? But then Arthur Baker got involved at some point and radically changed it to the version that was actually recorded and released on the 1983 12" ?

It's the other way round. They used analogue gear to record 'Confusion' - in the case of 'Confusion' most likely Arthur Baker's gear. When played live, I think they reprogrammed and shortened the song using their own equipment.

At the time 'Substance' came out they said they wanted to re-record it (and 'Temptation') to sound more like how the live versions sound, so these live arrangements came after the studio versions were recorded.

In the case of 'Confusion', on the 'Substance' re-record, interestingly, the key was changed from D minor to A flat minor - I guess to suit Barney's vocal range better.

I'm still wondering where to buy this from.

The New Order Store £150 complete bundle (box, 4 x12", t-shirt) looks pretty good value, based on a retail price of £113 for the box, £10 for each 12", £20 for t-shirt. You theoretical get the t-shirt for free.

However, I'd like to see what the Amazon.co.uk price is first. I managed to get the 'Movement' set on release day for £89. If we're talking the same, I'd rather order the box through them and either get the 12"s from them too or the NO Store. Just need Amazon to add the items to their store for price comparison.

I was a tiny bit fed up with the NO Store recently, when my Closer + 12"s bundle arrived a week after release. I'd hate if that was the case with this PC&L set. I'm not normally that impatient, but I WANT THIS SET now!

What have other UKers done? Have you ordered from the NO Store, another store or hanging on for Amazon.co.uk?

Mr Discography wrote:

Fotz wrote:

I wonder if they originally had in mind to record and release Confusion as a single in the form it takes when played live (and that eventually was recorded and appeared on Substance) ? But then Arthur Baker got involved at some point and radically changed it to the version that was actually recorded and released on the 1983 12" ?

It's the other way round. They used analogue gear to record 'Confusion' - in the case of 'Confusion' most likely Arthur Baker's gear. When played live, I think they reprogrammed and shortened the song using their own equipment.

At the time 'Substance' came out they said they wanted to re-record it (and 'Temptation') to sound more like how the live versions sound, so these live arrangements came after the studio versions were recorded.

In the case of 'Confusion', on the 'Substance' re-record, interestingly, the key was changed from D minor to A flat minor - I guess to suit Barney's vocal range better.

Oh, so the Baker version came first? Interesting.Thanks for that.The live version was always incredible so hats off to the band for completely, well, reamagining ( that's quite a 21st century word so think i'll utilise it in thia instance) it from the original Baker version.It's so different from thee Baker version, shows what talent they had/have for coming up with their own vision of a song.Genius.

perspexorange wrote: I was a tiny bit fed up with the NO Store recently, when my Closer + 12"s bundle arrived a week after release.

Over here we have to wait for UK stock to arrive, then it gets shipped. I didn't get ∑(No,12k,Lg,17Mif) until 8 weeks after the street date, and my Closer bundle has shipped, but I don't have it yet. We're in the middle of a pandemic, so I'm not too bothered by shipping times.

perspexorange wrote:

What have other UKers done? Have you ordered from the NO Store, another store or hanging on for Amazon.co.uk?

Have'nt ordered yet.What i usually do , as with the case of ordering the Doves upcoming new album box set, is to wait til the moment comes when i'm half pissed after a few wines and i get a lightbulb moment and take the plunge and click buy haha! Oh and i also clicked on ordering Lana Del Rey's new poetry readings album due out in early October.That was also after a few wines.I know, i know, don't hate on me for buying new Lana stuff

I think that 'Confusion' is an under-appreciated classic. A brilliant example of early 80s dance.

Also, I always loved it live. Bernard playing slap bass, Hooky on guitar, then bass, Steve hitting all those samples. Fab stuff.

Talking of Hooky on guitar, anyone know what guitar he's playing on this song during PFD (there's a good shot of it at the start):

Wonderful to see the positive effect this release announcement has had on this forum. It's been so sleepy here recently, apart from those sporadic random and pointless Spice Girls posts. I've found out more useful and interesting stuff in a day than I have in the last year, I reckon. It's rejuvenated us! Great stuff!

50poundnote wrote: I didn't get ∑(No,12k,Lg,17Mif) until 8 weeks after the street date, and my Closer bundle has shipped, but I don't have it yet. We're in the middle of a pandemic, so I'm not too bothered by shipping times.

Yeah. Makes my six day wait seem a bit trivial. As I say, I'm normally OK with waiting, but I know that if I have to wait for this set, it's going to annoy me. It wouldn't be so bad if everyone was waiting, but if I, say, ordered through the NO Store and it didn't arrive, but everyone else who ordered through Amazon got it on time. That's where it would start to grate on me. Avoidable delays, rather than pandemic related etc.

Fotz wrote:

perspexorange wrote:

What have other UKers done? Have you ordered from the NO Store, another store or hanging on for Amazon.co.uk?

Have'nt ordered yet.What i usually do , as with the case of ordering the Doves upcoming new album box set, is to wait til the moment comes when i'm half pissed after a few wines and i get a lightbulb moment and take the plunge and click buy haha! Oh and i also clicked on ordering Lana Del Rey's new poetry readings album due out in early October.That was also after a few wines.I know, i know, don't hate on me for buying new Lana stuff

Yep - I tend to do these drunken purchases too. To be fair though, I never regret it. But, this set... I don't need booze to tell me I need it. This is vital to my existence. HaHa.

Hey, no judgment on Lana. What I've heard, she ain't bad at all.

Mr Discography wrote: Wonderful to see the positive effect this release announcement has had on this forum. It's been so sleepy here recently, apart from those sporadic random and pointless Spice Girls posts. I've found out more useful and interesting stuff in a day than I have in the last year, I reckon. It's rejuvenated us! Great stuff!

Yep. I think it also helps that this is such a magnificent LP and that we've been waiting for this one for a lonnnng time. 'Movement' is great, but 'PC&L' is always going to be the LP that generates the most interest.

Although 'Technique' is marginally my favourite LP over this one, if I had to say which was the band's masterpiece, it would always be 'Power, Corruption & Lies'.

^ Good call, perspexorange with that clip of Confusion from the PFD vid.

Yep, always great live.Love the version from Kilkenny and looking forward to finally seeing it on video when the box set arrives.I'd bought the Confusion 12" sometime in 1983 and was familiar to that recorded version after a while but when i listened to the Radio 1 broadcast in late December that year and heard the live version of the song for the first time i thought it sounded bloody terrible but on further and repeated listenings to the cassette i'd recorded off the radio i really grew to love the it.Like many NO songs the live Confusion builds and builds and builds in intensity to something massive and then dies exhausted at the end.Just briilliant .

Kilkenny is great and I'm thrilled that we'll get to see it. Actually listening to it now. Fab stuff. Chaotically brilliant.

Still can't believe we are getting three complete gigs. The classic Kilkenny and two in New Order's own back yard. Fantastic.

Though we get Your Silent Face and 586 twice from The Hacienda 1983 on the DVDs.I have to assume the 2 performances are from different 83 Hacienda gigs.YSF and 586 from i think January 83 on at The Hacienda on one DVD and then the same 2 songs again in the full gig July 83 on the DVD that also has the Play At Home doc.

Fotz wrote: on the DVD that also has the Play At Home doc.

Love that film. Was watching it for the umpteenth time 2-3 weeks ago. When these box sets were originally being mooted, I always hoped that 'Play At Home' would be included. It's such a great part of the New Order Story and perfectly shows the important link between them and Factory.

Still can't quite believe that we get to see Tony's cock though. I could've done without that. And to think that Gillian was mere inches away from it.

perspexorange wrote:

Mr Discography wrote: Wonderful to see the positive effect this release announcement has had on this forum. It's been so sleepy here recently, apart from those sporadic random and pointless Spice Girls posts. I've found out more useful and interesting stuff in a day than I have in the last year, I reckon. It's rejuvenated us! Great stuff!

Yep. I think it also helps that this is such a magnificent LP and that we've been waiting for this one for a lonnnng time. 'Movement' is great, but 'PC&L' is always going to be the LP that generates the most interest.

Although 'Technique' is marginally my favourite LP over this one, if I had to say which was the band's masterpiece, it would always be 'Power, Corruption & Lies'.

Yep, i think the PCL box is the most urgent to me out of the lot.Even beats Technique even though weirdly i think Technique is a better album.Go figure.Maybe it's more there's for me more personal memories for me of getting in to NO around the time of PCL.Basically it was the album that changed my life upon hearing Age Of Consent for the very first time.Technique is incredible in the way it was maybe the pinnacle of what New Order had been developing towards throughout the 80s but PCL was the album that was the massive game changer for me.

Oh, and I think Johnny confirmed back when the contents were leaked that 'Your Silent Face' and '5-8-6' were from the other Haçienda gig. So, no duplication. Apart from, I guess, the Haçienda footage included in 'Play At Home' ('Temptation', 'Lonesome Tonight' and 'Thieves Like Us' from July '83).

perspexorange wrote: I think that 'Confusion' is an under-appreciated classic. A brilliant example of early 80s dance.

Also, I always loved it live. Bernard playing slap bass, Hooky on guitar, then bass, Steve hitting all those samples. Fab stuff.

Talking of Hooky on guitar, anyone know what guitar he's playing on this song during PFD (there's a good shot of it at the start):

Yamaha SG3000 I think