Mapping The Definitive Editions - Brotherhood

Never got Movement era singles released for streaming in the states. Starts with BM.

NotAMod wrote:

Mike C. wrote: Never got Movement era singles released for streaming in the states. Starts with BM.

If they're streaming the expanded Substance reissue then that's your answer, as it's also got all of the Movement era single tracks.

I can stream the full 4 CD version on YT Music in the UK.

It’s true. I like to look at the covers.

Mike C. wrote:

NotAMod wrote:

Mike C. wrote: Never got Movement era singles released for streaming in the states. Starts with BM.

If they're streaming the expanded Substance reissue then that's your answer, as it's also got all of the Movement era single tracks.

I can stream the full 4 CD version on YT Music in the UK.

It’s true. I like to look at the covers.

I'll need to check out this Substance 4 x CD. I've only bought the Movement box set (half price). I'm not a collector so happy to listen to stuff on YT as I've got all the original records/CDs.

NotAMod wrote: Still no sign of the digital singles. Touched would be gratefully received at this point.

Not entirely convinced by this approach of holding them back.

I mean, people who typically buy 12" reissues won't suddenly *not* buy them because a digital copy exists.

I would buy the vinyl if they came with digital DLs.

Since it's related, this appeared in my feed today. Full New York 1987 show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFg1SDC6x3g

prog99 wrote: Since it's related, this appeared in my feed today. Full New York 1987 show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFg1SDC6x3g

This is really good from what I've watched so far - great setlist (apart from Shellshock). Downhill from here on almost, setlist wise.

Just wow. Thanks for sharing!

Still no sign of 'State', 'Bizarre' or 'Touched' on digital stores. Any news Johnny?

Starting to come down in price for anyone who hasn't committed yet £109.99 on Amazon

We just need TBTHOG (Dub) and we don't get it! Total mess!

The box is currently marked down to $60 on Amazon - North America only.

LINK

50poundnote wrote: The box is currently marked down to $60 on Amazon - North America only.

LINK

It's all about power, corruption & lies over here these days.

Andy wrote:

50poundnote wrote: The box is currently marked down to $60 on Amazon - North America only.

LINK

It's all about power, corruption & lies over here these days.

That's marked down to $100

Andy wrote: It's all about power, corruption & lies over here these days.

There's a Tariffs joke in there somewhere. But actually that link says for me: $59.99 List Price: $149.98 No Import Charges & $12.35 Shipping to United Kingdom

Price $59.99 AmazonGlobal Shipping $12.35 Estimated Import Charges $0.00 Total $72.34

72 dollars is still quite good. That's about £55, which is considerably cheaper than £109.99 on Amazon UK.

perspexorange wrote: !!!!!! Trainspotter Alert!!!!!!

Been scrubbing through the 95 remixes, just to check which ones used which vocals.

Hardfloor Remix/Radio Edit/Dub/Video Edit/Lakes Edit/DanceZone Level 6 Edit - 1988 re-recorded vocals

Andrea Mix - 1988 re-recorded vocals

Brain Mix (aka Corleone Mix) - 1988 re-recorded vocals

Starwash Mix - 1988 re-recorded vocals

Manuella Mix/Edit - 1988 re-recorded vocals (probably! Very few vocal samples and, whatever is there, has been put through effects)

Plutone Mix/Dub/Radio Edit - 1988 re-recorded vocals (I think!, based on what little vocal samples there are)

Hawtin Mix/'From Manchester With Love' Edit - No vocals

There was lots of dscussion about the Michael Johnson '88 (vocal) remix that was released in 2024 back on pages 5 & 6 of this thread. I notice that Ivan X (the NO Versionography website guy) did a post on FB in a NO group in the last couple of days where he had a lightbulb moment of "The BM '95 vocals are actually the '88 (Johnson mix) vocals".

I nearly started a new thread, but really it's covered in this one. So I'm just postng the videos for a bit of comparison.

Here's the Michael Johnson remix that was released 8 months ago. At 2:30 Bernard sings "ah, tell me how does it feel? ah tell me now how do I feel?"

Those little "ah"s weren't in the original '83 version, as you probably know. I'll stick it under the spoiler in case you want to listen. 2:32. [SPOILER]

[/SPOILER]

Here's the Hardfloor mix. Jump to 2:23 for "ah, tell me how does it feel? ah tell me now how do I feel?". The same as the Johnson '88 mix above.

And here's the Brain mix with the added Sunkist lyrics from 4:55. Jump to 2:32 for: "ah, tell me how does it feel? ah tell me now how do I feel?" Again the same as the Johnson '88 mix. This track is speeded up but if you hit the settings cog on the video and reduce the speed down to 0.9, the vocal should be about the right speed. The fact that that the Sunkist vocal seems to fit with the rest of the vocal seems to further confirm that the Sunkist vocal and the '88 BM vocal were recorded at the same time. And that the '88 vocal is the '95 vocal. If you jump back to pages 5 & 6 here, you will see that Carey Raflle from the ad agency for Sunkist said it was 1988, so that all seems to fit.

So it's probably safe to say that:

1. They re-recorded the vocal in '88 for BM '88. But Potoker or Quincy preferred the '83 take (who doesn't?).
2. They recorded the Sunkist vocal at the same time
3. Only Johnson used the new vocal in '88, so we didn't get to hear a BM '88 with the new vocal until 2024.
4. The "new" '88 vocal was sent to remixers for the '95 version, complete with Sunkist in there, cos it was probably just on the same tape (same recording session).
5. Quincy hated the new vocal so much that he would only allow the dubby Beach Buggy version from Johnson to see the light of day (ok, this is pure speculation!)

Yep. That’s pretty much what I was thinking in the way of a timeline. I’m glad that we eventually got to hear the new vocals but the original ones are so much better. Dark and raw.

The reason the 1988 vocals were used later is because the transfer of the multitrack that has been used/sent out post 1988 is a 48 track one, featuring 24 tracks from the original, and 24 tracks of material added in 1988. Any remixers would have the option of using any part of it.

Johnny James wrote: The reason the 1988 vocals were used later is because the transfer of the multitrack that has been used/sent out post 1988 is a 48 track one, featuring 24 tracks from the original, and 24 tracks of material added in 1988. Any remixers would have the option of using any part of it.

Ah Mr Z, thanks for popping up!

So all the '95 remixers preferred the newer vocal. Do we know why? Or would we be getting into pure guesswork here?

Also, how did Quincy manage to supervise this in the pre-internet era? Johnson was presumably in the UK whilst Quincy and Potoker were in the US, right?

There seems to be a similar timbre to both Potoker and Johnson's remixes (e.g. opening synth, claps). Did one remixer use the other remixer's parts?

If Quincy was running this project from America how/why did Johnson get involved at all? Did Potoker and Johnson do these remixes at the same time, or was one clearly done before/after the other one?

Is it safe to say that NO only re-recorded the vocals and (added) funky guitar for '88? Or was there anything else?

At the start of BM 83 and BM 88 respectively, the lyrics are slghtly different. The '83 version starts: How does it feel to treat me like you do" The '88 version starts: How does it feel when you treat me like you do"

I mention this because the guy in the video below has got the "dry" vocals from BM'83. I know the BM '83 parts have been floating around the internet for years, but those vocals are covered in effects ("wet", as you remixers say). Any idea where this guy got the effect-free, "dry" vocals from, for BM 83? The fact that these dry parts exist (and presumably did in '95?) means that the vocal effects wouldn't have necessarily discouraged the '95 remixers from using the '83 vocals, would they?

Jump to 4:15 for those dry BM'83 vocals:

Johnny James wrote: The reason the 1988 vocals were used later is because the transfer of the multitrack that has been used/sent out post 1988 is a 48 track one, featuring 24 tracks from the original, and 24 tracks of material added in 1988. Any remixers would have the option of using any part of it.

That's really interesting Johnny. Never thought about the practicalities of them adding extra tracks to the original (or a copy of the original?) multi-track master tape for subsequent vocal takes and remixes.

Whilst we have your attention Johnny, any news on when the Bizarre Love Triangle, State and Touched digital reissues will be put online? It's been nearly seven months since the Brotherhood box, so concerned these may never make it onto streaming/download stores, even though later singles like True Faith and Blue Monday 1988 already have. Can you give the band/management/label a nudge at all?

Also, sure it's still early days, but what's the progress and possible release dates for the Technique box? Any gossip you can share?

Thanks!

Debaser wrote: Any idea where this guy got the effect-free, "dry" vocals from, for BM 83?

On the guys Insta he is bigging up the stem splitting abilities of the new Logic Pro - but I've never heard any stem splitter achieve results this clean, and he does say "from the original multitracks" in his YT description for the Blue Monday breakdown

Johnny James wrote:

Mr Discography wrote:

Johnny James wrote:

I don't know anything about Warners plans (or not) for the release of the digital singles. Technique will happen after we've got the JD one ready.

Is there a contact at Warner we could contact to remind them that they appear to.have forgotten to release these digital singles, and politely ask them to release them?

Done it. Hopefully something will happen soon now.

Johnny, did you get any reply on the digital 'Brotherhood' single releases from Warners?

GotBlueEyes wrote:

Debaser wrote: Any idea where this guy got the effect-free, "dry" vocals from, for BM 83?

On the guys Insta he is bigging up the stem splitting abilities of the new Logic Pro - but I've never heard any stem splitter achieve results this clean, and he does say "from the original multitracks" in his YT description for the Blue Monday breakdown

the BM 83 original stems have been doing the rounds on the web for about a dozen years now - to my knowledge they originated from the ROCK BAND video game, stems from many songs were extracted and leaked onto the web. I believe LWTUA was one of those as well.

BM83 stems end with a non-fade end, à la Hooky & The Light live.

I'm An Animal wrote:

GotBlueEyes wrote:

Debaser wrote: Any idea where this guy got the effect-free, "dry" vocals from, for BM 83?

On the guys Insta he is bigging up the stem splitting abilities of the new Logic Pro - but I've never heard any stem splitter achieve results this clean, and he does say "from the original multitracks" in his YT description for the Blue Monday breakdown

the BM 83 original stems have been doing the rounds on the web for about a dozen years now - to my knowledge they originated from the ROCK BAND video game, steams from many songs were extracted and leaked onto the web. I belive LWTUA was one of those as well.

BM83 stems end with a non-fade end, à la Hooky & The Light live.

But hang on there Mr Animal...

If you listen to the isolated vocals at the very beginning of that guy's video - you get the isolated vox with effects on them. Standard. However, if you jump to 4:15 in his video, you get the vox without effects on them. Hear that?

Yes, the stems/parts have been doing the rounds on the internet for years (as I said in my post #384 above with the video). Indeed on a website specifically dedicated to stems/parts, someone called Spotnick(!) posted those parts years ago, And indeed I have them on my hard drive. What I don't have is the BM'83 vocal without the effects (4:15).

As for LWTUA, it is also my understanding that the parts came from ROCK BAND. But I don't think that's the case for BM. The rumour I heard is that they came from Hooky himself.

I believe NO created the vocal effects by playing Bernard's vox through an amp/speaker in an an isolated room in the studio, and mic-ing it up and recording the sound with that specific room's acoustics. Indeed it's my understanding that they did the same with the kick drum too. I remember during those Tim Burgess Twitter Listening Parties, Stephen Morris was talking about BM on twitter. Tom Rowlands (Chemical Brothers) asked how they managed to get that sound from the DMX drum machine (Tom had probably tried) and we got our answer.

In order for our YouTube guy to get the untreated vocals we hear at 4:15, somebody with access to the not-quite-final parts of the track must have helped him. Stephen perhaps, or Michael Johnson? Naturally I'd like to get my hands on them, but I suspect it's unlikely.

I did actually ask the YouTube guy where he got the effect-free, "dry" vocals from. He replied (after I had done my post #384 above): "I get sessions from industry people, publishers, and most recently from bands directly".

Debaser wrote:

In order for our YouTube guy to get the untreated vocals we hear at 4:15, somebody with access to the not-quite-final parts of the track must have helped him. Stephen perhaps, or Michael Johnson? Naturally I'd like to get my hands on them, but I suspect it's unlikely.

I thought maybe he had just used a de-reverb plugin, but no - what he plays afterwards is the same as the stems on the web, and clearly filtered/vocoded in places, so no way he could have algorithimically reverted that back to the raw vocal